So Nightblades are still stuck being trash and won’t be able to compete with pure classes or subclasses is what I am hearing and stop trying to buff nbs thru pure damage stacks Jesus Christ it’s an rogue class with no bleeding or poison damage could have used this opportunity to give nbs some of those thru the passives not that trash crit damage passive

Just throwing my support behind the excellent posts by @Turtle_Bot @MashmalloMan @ZhuJiuyin @Cammiepoo @pluvioisaplanet

Please, trust us. We know that on the dummy sorc looks amazing, but there are huge limitations when it comes to group content which are not being represented on the dummy.

The dummy is not the game.

Cleave matters.
Support in the form of buffs and debuffs matter.
Sorc does almost nothing on all these fronts.

To make sorc work right now we're running essentially 3 spammables. Knife, bound armaments and frags. It's all single target. Stack static reverb on top of that and it becaomes very clear that you're not going to get any cleave out of this build.
You're just not, all the GCD's are tied to those skills.

Static reverb is carrying sorc hard in these parses. Take it off and you lose 17k+ for the passive damage plus whatever concussed it's procing.

I also want to put some emphasis on any build that is running 60% crit chance is going to have big swings on the dummy. Look a those big 200k parses and you'll see 80% crit on frags. Because why would someone post their parse with bad frag crit %?
In real content we don't reset the boss because we're not getting frag procs and can see that the NUMBA TOO SMOL.

You're balancing on a curated data set where it only shows the best case scenario.

Please, I'm begging you, stop using dummy parses as the most important metric for PvE balance. It's a really good metric is identifying where something is too weak, but it's a terrible metric for identifying when something is too strong.

how does it make any sense to acknowledge that nightblade class masteries are bad but then point out that they have subclassing builds that are overperforming as some sort of counterargument
they're mutually exclusive

can u explain, cause i don't think u actually understand

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Draggimus wrote: »

how does it make any sense to acknowledge that nightblade class masteries are bad but then point out that they have subclassing builds that are overperforming as some sort of counterargument
they're mutually exclusive

can u explain, cause i don't think u actually understand

Where's the contradiction? Because Nightblades lack AoE, class mastery doesn't truly help them. And class mastery doesn't offer a more effective means of survival in PvP (aside from stealth).

However, in subclass builds, Assassination provides a huge amount of critical chance and critical damage, and no other class skills can provide so much critical chance and critical damage simultaneously. This forces many subclass builds need to revolve around Assassination; otherwise, they're limiting themselves.

no ***? that's the problem?

Draggimus wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Because Nightblades lack AoE, class mastery doesn't truly help them. And class mastery doesn't offer a more effective means of survival in PvP (aside from stealth).

that is literally the point of the class masteries?
to do so, to make it worth keeping all 3 lines, to bridge the gap between the mistake that is subclassing and pure classes

they're also literally mutually exclusive with subclassing, so a subclassing build being overpowered has ZERO relevance to them being bad?

"assassination is too good in subclassing!" that's sure an issue because you can definitely get these passives while subclassing
what are you even talking about [snip]

Let's be rational, okay?

It was for some unknown reason that the development team decided to concentrate all of Nightblade's damage potential on the Assassination line and over-buff that line, resulting in Assassination being excessively powerful in sub-builds and possessing the highest crit cap in the game. Many acknowledge that most Nightblade masteries don't significantly benefit the build, but many also point out that with a pure Nightblade possessing the highest crit cap in the game, it's difficult to truly balance PvE and PvP, because once the crit reaches a certain level, the advantage is amplified exponentially. This problem is essentially unsolvable before the class refresh, which is exactly what the developers said: "This isn't something we can comprehensively solve until we do the refresh work for the Nightblade class. What we were able to adjust on the PTS helps, but it is intended to be a stopgap until the class refresh."

For a simple example, if An Eye for Exploitation is increased to 1665 (the same as Warden Mastery), then due to the excessively high crit rate of Assassination, the benefit from this 1665 Weapon Damage will be greater than that from Warden, because Warden's passive ability does not have an additional crit chance.
[edited to remove quote]

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Draggimus wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Because Nightblades lack AoE, class mastery doesn't truly help them. And class mastery doesn't offer a more effective means of survival in PvP (aside from stealth).

that is literally the point of the class masteries?
to do so, to make it worth keeping all 3 lines, to bridge the gap between the mistake that is subclassing and pure classes

they're also literally mutually exclusive with subclassing, so a subclassing build being overpowered has ZERO relevance to them being bad?

"assassination is too good in subclassing!" that's sure an issue because you can definitely get these passives while subclassing
what are you even talking about [snip]

Let's be rational, okay?

It was for some unknown reason that the development team decided to concentrate all of Nightblade's damage potential on the Assassination line and over-buff that line, resulting in Assassination being excessively powerful in sub-builds and possessing the highest crit cap in the game. Many acknowledge that most Nightblade masteries don't significantly benefit the build, but many also point out that with a pure Nightblade possessing the highest crit cap in the game, it's difficult to truly balance PvE and PvP, because once the crit reaches a certain level, the advantage is amplified exponentially. This problem is essentially unsolvable before the class refresh, which is exactly what the developers said: "This isn't something we can comprehensively solve until we do the refresh work for the Nightblade class. What we were able to adjust on the PTS helps, but it is intended to be a stopgap until the class refresh."

For a simple example, if An Eye for Exploitation is increased to 1665 (the same as Warden Mastery), then due to the excessively high crit rate of Assassination, the benefit from this 1665 Weapon Damage will be greater than that from Warden, because Warden's passive ability does not have an additional crit chance.

Except that's not true for your example of e4e vs warden mastery.

Eye for exploitation scales based off the targets missing health while warden mastery is simply based on status effects which will always be active. So even if the peak values are identical, the warden has that 1665 s/wd all the time for offense based on their status effects on the nb, and for defense from the nb's status effects on the warden. The nightblade gets nothing for offense unless they're already able to pressure through the warden's self healing without eye for exploitation, and their own healing boost from e4e only kicks in as they're losing the fight, but still won't be as potent as the warden's until the nb is in execute range or dead on the ground.

However, unless Serpent's Disdain is worn, status effects only last for 4 seconds, and Wild Adaptation requires at least 5 status effects on the target to receive the full bonus. Warden, aside from Chilled, doesn't increase the chance of other status effects, and Chilled is already included in the commonly used Elemental Susceptibility. Therefore, it's difficult for a single person to maintain the full Wild Adaptation bonus. Furthermore, An Eye for Exploitation also increases Nightblade's survivability, as the lower the target's health, the less damage Nightblade takes. Therefore, An Eye for Exploitation alone provides Nightblade with: 1. Execution ability covering the entire battle (based on target's health 100-0%), 2. Healing ability in critical situations, and 3. Damage reduction covering the entire battle (based on target's health 100-0%).

Because An Eye for Exploitation provides multiple effects simultaneously, we can see the development team constantly fine-tuning the numbers in each patch (which is what many players have been hoping for – not a complete overhaul, but rather fine-tuning the numbers to achieve balance). This precisely demonstrates that the development team has indeed been paying attention to the balance of pure Nightblade, and with a (good) cautious attitude, rather than as some have complained.
[edited to remove quote]

Dracane wrote: »

No, that's not correct. Warden's damage passive is without a doubt the most OP in the game, but it is only spell damage against the target, not for Warden. So they gain no healing from it.

The Nightblade talent gets so wrongfully underestimated it's laughable. I can hit 20k malevolent offering burst heals with this in PvP. It is OP just like Warden. It kicking in on lower HP is no counter argument at all, because you do not care for healing when you are full health, do you? I don't. Eye for Exploit kicks in when it's actually needed.

Same goes for the damage component. You outright nuke people below 60% HP. I was able to land a 22k spec bow after Incap (which dropped the target to ~60% HP) and it was a clean 2 shot. I was only otherwise able to do it with subclassed Shalks or Blastbones, which means dropping invisibility and infinite sustain throughout the Siphoning Strikes.

And in case you have not seen Nightblade ganker on the PTS, its most popular playstyle, it is unsurvivable. Though I will concede that ganking is a joke currently with max range pulse ganking. There is no art or challenge in it right now.

Pure class talents do not solve it all for any class, but they offer, in my opinion, enough power to move things into a different light.
[edited to remove quote]

1) note that this can apply to friendly targets?


2) of course you care about healing when at high or full health, people run hots for sustained healing to keep their health high even while on offense, so a bucket of s/wd for those hots does in fact do a lot of work.

3) hitting a target at 60% translates to about 400 bonus s/wd, a whole 67 more than what the warden gets from having a single status effect on target.

4) pulse ganking nowadays is largely done without any nightblade lines, most often storm/dark magic/herald. NB can still gank but its pretty ludicrous to suggest the masteries are super powerful for it, esp. vs something that provides upfront s/wd like the sorc or warden masteries.

I'd also point out that taking less damage from people with low health is largely meaningless because aside from one extremely niche build which plays around having their health% low, only the most incompetent player goes "I might be at 10% health but I'm going to keep tunneling damage and try to kill you!". They instead tap a burst heal to reset their health rather than trying to do damage, so taking less damage based on the attackers' missing health is of minimal benefit in pvp.

edit: Eye for Exploitation is a textbook example of a winmore passive. It doesn't do much for damage unless you were already doing enough damage to bring your target low, so it is very difficult to justify it vs a passive which can work against a target at any level of health. If you were already winning the fight it makes you win. more. if you're in a 10 minute stalemate against a competent player, it offers minimal benefit, while their damage masteries are overwhelmingly always active.

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

No, that's not correct. Warden's damage passive is without a doubt the most OP in the game, but it is only spell damage against the target, not for Warden. So they gain no healing from it.

The Nightblade talent gets so wrongfully underestimated it's laughable. I can hit 20k malevolent offering burst heals with this in PvP. It is OP just like Warden. It kicking in on lower HP is no counter argument at all, because you do not care for healing when you are full health, do you? I don't. Eye for Exploit kicks in when it's actually needed.

Same goes for the damage component. You outright nuke people below 60% HP. I was able to land a 22k spec bow after Incap (which dropped the target to ~60% HP) and it was a clean 2 shot. I was only otherwise able to do it with subclassed Shalks or Blastbones, which means dropping invisibility and infinite sustain throughout the Siphoning Strikes.

And in case you have not seen Nightblade ganker on the PTS, its most popular playstyle, it is unsurvivable. Though I will concede that ganking is a joke currently with max range pulse ganking. There is no art or challenge in it right now.

Pure class talents do not solve it all for any class, but they offer, in my opinion, enough power to move things into a different light.
[edited to remove quote]

1) note that this can apply to friendly targets?


2) of course you care about healing when at high or full health, people run hots for sustained healing to keep their health high even while on offense, so a bucket of s/wd for those hots does in fact do a lot of work.

3) hitting a target at 60% translates to about 400 bonus s/wd, a whole 67 more than what the warden gets from having a single status effect on target.

4) pulse ganking nowadays is largely done without any nightblade lines, most often storm/dark magic/herald. NB can still gank but its pretty ludicrous to suggest the masteries are super powerful for it, esp. vs something that provides upfront s/wd like the sorc or warden masteries.

I'd also point out that taking less damage from people with low health is largely meaningless because aside from one extremely niche build which plays around having their health% low, only the most incompetent player goes "I might be at 10% health but I'm going to keep tunneling damage and try to kill you!". They instead tap a burst heal to reset their health rather than trying to do damage, so taking less damage based on the attackers' missing health is of minimal benefit in pvp.

edit: Eye for Exploitation is a textbook example of a winmore passive. It doesn't do much for damage unless you were already doing enough damage to bring your target low, so it is very difficult to justify it vs a passive which can work against a target at any level of health. If you were already winning the fight it makes you win. more. if you're in a 10 minute stalemate against a competent player, it offers minimal benefit, while their damage masteries are overwhelmingly always active.

Is this a new change? I saw this but glanced over it. Well if that is the case and it actually applies to self healing, as in status effects on yourself, then my point was invalid. I still think and know that Nightblade's Eye for Exploitation is anything but weak, but of course it's a joke compared to the Warden talent. Everything is.

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Is this a new change? I saw this but glanced over it. Well if that is the case and it actually applies to self healing, as in status effects on yourself, then my point was invalid. I still think and know that Nightblade's Eye for Exploitation is anything but weak, but of course it's a joke compared to the Warden talent. Everything is.

Week one patch notes.

And I verified it also. So far I only handled this talent offensively. It does indeed scale the healing on self and allies based on the status effects you suffer.