U50 Feedback Thread for Class Mastery

Pinktraining · May 8

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Exposing tedious mathematical arguments doesn't prove that Reverberation's current state is acceptable. In fact, it only makes people dislike Sorc and Reverberation more. Nobody likes having to calculate probabilities in the tense atmosphere of PvP. Reverberation either needs to be nerfed to a 5-second cooldown or have its damage nerfed by 50%, otherwise there's absolutely no reason to accept the current version of Reverberation into the live server.

Can NB mains who have absolutely zero clue about sorcerer stop commenting on sorcerers trying to get them deleted from the game.

It's been 10+ years already, enough is enough, stick to your own class and let others have a chance to have fun playing their class.

What does this have to do with "Nightblade players"? Don't "Nightblade players" have the right to comment on balance? Or do you not want the game to be balanced so you can continue to dominate with Sorc?

Even more absurd is that some people actually think Pressure Points are better than Expert Mage. How can 2.5% Critical Chance be better than 108 Weapon Damage? Don't forget that in PvP, all experienced players have very high Critical Resistance; 2.5% Critical Chance is practically useless! Even in PvE, 108 Weapon Damage is better because Sorc can recover more health using Surge and Blood Magic!

You're playing the wrong game man. The past year with subclassing NB's Assassination line has dominated the meta including other crit related skill lines to stack Crit Damage to ridiculous levels with delayed burst.

Every build needs a Major Resolve skill, so you have 7 options, the most obvious come down to Restoring Light and Storm Calling. Rune Focus is great, but if you don't need the sustain and prefer offense, Storm Calling is much more advantageous due to having well balanced passives and the best mobility skill in the game. Just so happens that during this crit meta, players are picking up Assassination and Animal Companions, both of which have Crit Damage, and you also need a Major Brutality/Sustain skill, to which Betty works well for. This pushes out the great Restoring Light line in favour of Storm Calling.

No one is picking up Storm Calling strictly for their 108 w/s damage, and not a single person is touching Dark Magic and Daedric Summoning the same way no one is touching Shadow or Siphoning. So what exactly is your point? Assassination has some of, if not the best passives and abilities in the game, why would you even begin to compare these in a vaccum like that?

Is it PVE? Crit chance is also meta there, Assassination, and Herald of the Tome are the top picks on every build, but it's hard to take you seriously when you're the same person that said Sorc has the best cleave in the game because of Empower + Overload. We get it, you hate Sorc, cool. News flash, both NB and Sorc have similar problems of being prejudiced against for dealing too much single target DPS while ignoring the fact that they have more complex rotations, reliant on weaving, and no cleave. We're in the same boat.

This whole discussion started based on the notion that proc sets and status effects proc Static Reverb which is completely false. No one here is trying to knock NB down, in fact many of us commented on how underpowered the Masteries were.

Sorc has no shortage of AoE damage now. With class mastery, Sorc can deal considerable AoE damage through Conservation of Energy and Shattering Spines. Shattering Spines is undoubtedly Sorc's most powerful AoE spam, not to mention it also inflicts immobilize and Major Maim, effects that are extremely useful in both PvP and PvE.

Can we stop pretending Sorc is weak? Since U35, Sorc has undoubtedly been the strongest and most played class. The ubiquitous Lightning Staves heavy attacks are proof enough.

Turtle_Bot · May 8

Pinktraining wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Exposing tedious mathematical arguments doesn't prove that Reverberation's current state is acceptable. In fact, it only makes people dislike Sorc and Reverberation more. Nobody likes having to calculate probabilities in the tense atmosphere of PvP. Reverberation either needs to be nerfed to a 5-second cooldown or have its damage nerfed by 50%, otherwise there's absolutely no reason to accept the current version of Reverberation into the live server.

Can NB mains who have absolutely zero clue about sorcerer stop commenting on sorcerers trying to get them deleted from the game.

It's been 10+ years already, enough is enough, stick to your own class and let others have a chance to have fun playing their class.

What does this have to do with "Nightblade players"? Don't "Nightblade players" have the right to comment on balance? Or do you not want the game to be balanced so you can continue to dominate with Sorc?

Even more absurd is that some people actually think Pressure Points are better than Expert Mage. How can 2.5% Critical Chance be better than 108 Weapon Damage? Don't forget that in PvP, all experienced players have very high Critical Resistance; 2.5% Critical Chance is practically useless! Even in PvE, 108 Weapon Damage is better because Sorc can recover more health using Surge and Blood Magic!

NB players are allowed (and encouraged) to comment on balance when being constructive, not when they are deliberately spreading hate, lies, BS and other completely biased/nonsense takes that has zero basis in reality or the current state of the game.

Comments like the one I responded to that called for a 50% DPS nerf or 1500% nerf to it's cooldown is not something that is based in reality, fairness, or reason, it was nothing more than a biased cry about something that had no facts/proof to back it up. The comment has also since been disproven by Mashmalloman's math above showing the DPS of reverb is similar to the burning light passive (assuming reverb is proc'd at minimum every GCD, if it misses a single GCD it's worse than BL), while also being harder to proc than BL and nobody is complaining about BL, so reverb is left as a situational mastery for dummy parse number inflating at best and just not worth using over the other class masteries).

As for this comment, you are confusing crit chance with crit damage. Crit resist doesn't lower your opponents chances of getting a critical strike. Getting a Critical Strike will ALWAYS result in increased damage done unless you specifically build to have literally zero or negative critical damage done values, even against someone who has every available crit resistance possible, a critical strike will deal significantly increased damage than a non critical strike would.

The other thing that gets massively overlooked by those who think crit rate is worse than weapon damage is that crit rate also affects healing like weapon damage does, but unlike weapon damage where there's countless ways to reduce enemies weapon damage, there's only 1 debuff to reduce the targets chance to critically heal (minor uncertainty, no major version yet) and those come from poisons (super niche), torch bearer (laughably bad), travelling knife (prohibitively expensive to spam) and critical riposte set (hasn't been good in over 5+ years, probably much longer) and there (currently) no way to reduce the targets critical healing done stat (enervation does not affect critical healing, only critical damage).

There's a reason Assassination is the SINGLE MOST SUBCLASSED LINE ACROSS BOTH PVP AND PVE and that is even POST Merciless Resolve "nerf" (removal of it's free bonus weapon damage) that Assassination still holds that crown.

The line not only gives insane crit rate (nearly 50% just on it's own thanks to having 4 amazing abilities worth slotting) that buffs damage to insane levels, but also buffs healing more than anything else in this game can.
Which is why before sub-classing offering was a better heal in practice than what the tooltip showed, because assassination buffed it by giving it a near 50% chance to crit (which on an average build that has a baseline +50% healing done, at a 50% crit rate, that averages out to a roughly +25% unreducible buff to healing done at base (no other modifiers so not counting any bonuses from things like khajiit, champion points, sets, or anything else), which is something that no other heal skill had access to before everyone could sub-class assassination and not even the combat medic passive (+20% healing done while near a keep) increases healing done by that amount and that's the only thing that the combat medic passive does and only while near a keep in cyrodiil specifically.

There's a reason crit rate used to be so insanely hard to get before ZOS gave it all to the assassination line then allowed everyone to sub-class into that line. Crit rate is the single strongest stat in the game, nothing else even comes close to how strong and fast scaling crit rate is.

ZhuJiuyin · May 8

Just talk. But many players I've seen on forums (usually Nightblade players) seem to have a morbid hatred for Sorc, as if they won't rest until Sorc is removed from the game. Even though there are other more obviously unbalanced things, such as Arc Beam in PvE, overhealing in PvP, Netch, Warden's Class Flourish, etc., some people ignore these, even defend them, and even blame Sorc, using misleading data to try and get the developers to nerf Sorc.
According to the current game design, although Sorc and Nightblade are theoretically the strongest single-target damage classes, Sorc is more ranged/spellcaster-oriented, while Nightblade is more melee/martial-oriented, so their roles shouldn't overlap much, and there's no need for so much animosity between them. But some players seem to think that by eliminating Sorc, their class can obtain the only crown with the highest single-target damage in the game.

Pinktraining · May 8

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Exposing tedious mathematical arguments doesn't prove that Reverberation's current state is acceptable. In fact, it only makes people dislike Sorc and Reverberation more. Nobody likes having to calculate probabilities in the tense atmosphere of PvP. Reverberation either needs to be nerfed to a 5-second cooldown or have its damage nerfed by 50%, otherwise there's absolutely no reason to accept the current version of Reverberation into the live server.

Can NB mains who have absolutely zero clue about sorcerer stop commenting on sorcerers trying to get them deleted from the game.

It's been 10+ years already, enough is enough, stick to your own class and let others have a chance to have fun playing their class.

What does this have to do with "Nightblade players"? Don't "Nightblade players" have the right to comment on balance? Or do you not want the game to be balanced so you can continue to dominate with Sorc?

Even more absurd is that some people actually think Pressure Points are better than Expert Mage. How can 2.5% Critical Chance be better than 108 Weapon Damage? Don't forget that in PvP, all experienced players have very high Critical Resistance; 2.5% Critical Chance is practically useless! Even in PvE, 108 Weapon Damage is better because Sorc can recover more health using Surge and Blood Magic!

NB players are allowed (and encouraged) to comment on balance when being constructive, not when they are deliberately spreading hate, lies, BS and other completely biased/nonsense takes that has zero basis in reality or the current state of the game.

Comments like the one I responded to that called for a 50% DPS nerf or 1500% nerf to it's cooldown is not something that is based in reality, fairness, or reason, it was nothing more than a biased cry about something that had no facts/proof to back it up. The comment has also since been disproven by Mashmalloman's math above showing the DPS of reverb is similar to the burning light passive (assuming reverb is proc'd at minimum every GCD, if it misses a single GCD it's worse than BL), while also being harder to proc than BL and nobody is complaining about BL, so reverb is left as a situational mastery for dummy parse number inflating at best and just not worth using over the other class masteries).

As for this comment, you are confusing crit chance with crit damage. Crit resist doesn't lower your opponents chances of getting a critical strike. Getting a Critical Strike will ALWAYS result in increased damage done unless you specifically build to have literally zero or negative critical damage done values, even against someone who has every available crit resistance possible, a critical strike will deal significantly increased damage than a non critical strike would.

The other thing that gets massively overlooked by those who think crit rate is worse than weapon damage is that crit rate also affects healing like weapon damage does, but unlike weapon damage where there's countless ways to reduce enemies weapon damage, there's only 1 debuff to reduce the targets chance to critically heal (minor uncertainty, no major version yet) and those come from poisons (super niche), torch bearer (laughably bad), travelling knife (prohibitively expensive to spam) and critical riposte set (hasn't been good in over 5+ years, probably much longer) and there (currently) no way to reduce the targets critical healing done stat (enervation does not affect critical healing, only critical damage).

There's a reason Assassination is the SINGLE MOST SUBCLASSED LINE ACROSS BOTH PVP AND PVE and that is even POST Merciless Resolve "nerf" (removal of it's free bonus weapon damage) that Assassination still holds that crown.

The line not only gives insane crit rate (nearly 50% just on it's own thanks to having 4 amazing abilities worth slotting) that buffs damage to insane levels, but also buffs healing more than anything else in this game can.
Which is why before sub-classing offering was a better heal in practice than what the tooltip showed, because assassination buffed it by giving it a near 50% chance to crit (which on an average build that has a baseline +50% healing done, at a 50% crit rate, that averages out to a roughly +25% unreducible buff to healing done at base (no other modifiers so not counting any bonuses from things like khajiit, champion points, sets, or anything else), which is something that no other heal skill had access to before everyone could sub-class assassination and not even the combat medic passive (+20% healing done while near a keep) increases healing done by that amount and that's the only thing that the combat medic passive does and only while near a keep in cyrodiil specifically.

There's a reason crit rate used to be so insanely hard to get before ZOS gave it all to the assassination line then allowed everyone to sub-class into that line. Crit rate is the single strongest stat in the game, nothing else even comes close to how strong and fast scaling crit rate is.

No one complains about Burning Light, that's because Templars have low attack frequency and slow movement. But Sorc has the highest attack frequency and movement speed in the game, and now with Static Reverb as an additional damage source (even if the probability is unstable), it still severely damages PvP. Adding another damage source to a class with such high attack frequency and this class happens to dominate both PvP and PvE, is simply the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

Furthermore, we're talking about "pure Nightblades," not a single skill line. Assassination is currently the only somewhat usable line for Nightblades, and even adding more abilities to Assassination won't make pure Nightblades overpowered.

What's the point of more crit chances when your crit damage is negated by Critical Resistance?

Aces-High-82 · May 8

Procing of any Lightning damage would take away the sorc exclusivity. I am very sure Sorc will get better ways to proc it in 7 months.
Tho being clunky that Set was able to create

Pinktraining wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Exposing tedious mathematical arguments doesn't prove that Reverberation's current state is acceptable. In fact, it only makes people dislike Sorc and Reverberation more. Nobody likes having to calculate probabilities in the tense atmosphere of PvP. Reverberation either needs to be nerfed to a 5-second cooldown or have its damage nerfed by 50%, otherwise there's absolutely no reason to accept the current version of Reverberation into the live server.

Can NB mains who have absolutely zero clue about sorcerer stop commenting on sorcerers trying to get them deleted from the game.

It's been 10+ years already, enough is enough, stick to your own class and let others have a chance to have fun playing their class.

What does this have to do with "Nightblade players"? Don't "Nightblade players" have the right to comment on balance? Or do you not want the game to be balanced so you can continue to dominate with Sorc?

Even more absurd is that some people actually think Pressure Points are better than Expert Mage. How can 2.5% Critical Chance be better than 108 Weapon Damage? Don't forget that in PvP, all experienced players have very high Critical Resistance; 2.5% Critical Chance is practically useless! Even in PvE, 108 Weapon Damage is better because Sorc can recover more health using Surge and Blood Magic!

NB players are allowed (and encouraged) to comment on balance when being constructive, not when they are deliberately spreading hate, lies, BS and other completely biased/nonsense takes that has zero basis in reality or the current state of the game.

Comments like the one I responded to that called for a 50% DPS nerf or 1500% nerf to it's cooldown is not something that is based in reality, fairness, or reason, it was nothing more than a biased cry about something that had no facts/proof to back it up. The comment has also since been disproven by Mashmalloman's math above showing the DPS of reverb is similar to the burning light passive (assuming reverb is proc'd at minimum every GCD, if it misses a single GCD it's worse than BL), while also being harder to proc than BL and nobody is complaining about BL, so reverb is left as a situational mastery for dummy parse number inflating at best and just not worth using over the other class masteries).

As for this comment, you are confusing crit chance with crit damage. Crit resist doesn't lower your opponents chances of getting a critical strike. Getting a Critical Strike will ALWAYS result in increased damage done unless you specifically build to have literally zero or negative critical damage done values, even against someone who has every available crit resistance possible, a critical strike will deal significantly increased damage than a non critical strike would.

The other thing that gets massively overlooked by those who think crit rate is worse than weapon damage is that crit rate also affects healing like weapon damage does, but unlike weapon damage where there's countless ways to reduce enemies weapon damage, there's only 1 debuff to reduce the targets chance to critically heal (minor uncertainty, no major version yet) and those come from poisons (super niche), torch bearer (laughably bad), travelling knife (prohibitively expensive to spam) and critical riposte set (hasn't been good in over 5+ years, probably much longer) and there (currently) no way to reduce the targets critical healing done stat (enervation does not affect critical healing, only critical damage).

There's a reason Assassination is the SINGLE MOST SUBCLASSED LINE ACROSS BOTH PVP AND PVE and that is even POST Merciless Resolve "nerf" (removal of it's free bonus weapon damage) that Assassination still holds that crown.

The line not only gives insane crit rate (nearly 50% just on it's own thanks to having 4 amazing abilities worth slotting) that buffs damage to insane levels, but also buffs healing more than anything else in this game can.
Which is why before sub-classing offering was a better heal in practice than what the tooltip showed, because assassination buffed it by giving it a near 50% chance to crit (which on an average build that has a baseline +50% healing done, at a 50% crit rate, that averages out to a roughly +25% unreducible buff to healing done at base (no other modifiers so not counting any bonuses from things like khajiit, champion points, sets, or anything else), which is something that no other heal skill had access to before everyone could sub-class assassination and not even the combat medic passive (+20% healing done while near a keep) increases healing done by that amount and that's the only thing that the combat medic passive does and only while near a keep in cyrodiil specifically.

There's a reason crit rate used to be so insanely hard to get before ZOS gave it all to the assassination line then allowed everyone to sub-class into that line. Crit rate is the single strongest stat in the game, nothing else even comes close to how strong and fast scaling crit rate is.

No one complains about Burning Light, that's because Templars have low attack frequency and slow movement. But Sorc has the highest attack frequency and movement speed in the game, and now with Static Reverb as an additional damage source (even if the probability is unstable), it still severely damages PvP. Adding another damage source to a class with such high attack frequency and this class happens to dominate both PvP and PvE, is simply the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

Furthermore, we're talking about "pure Nightblades," not a single skill line. Assassination is currently the only somewhat usable line for Nightblades, and even adding more abilities to Assassination won't make pure Nightblades overpowered.

What's the point of more crit chances when your crit damage is negated by Critical Resistance?

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Turtle_Bot · May 8

Pinktraining wrote: »

No one complains about Burning Light, that's because Templars have low attack frequency and slow movement. But Sorc has the highest attack frequency and movement speed in the game, and now with Static Reverb as an additional damage source (even if the probability is unstable), it still severely damages PvP. Adding another damage source to a class with such high attack frequency and this class happens to dominate both PvP and PvE, is simply the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

Furthermore, we're talking about "pure Nightblades," not a single skill line. Assassination is currently the only somewhat usable line for Nightblades, and even adding more abilities to Assassination won't make pure Nightblades overpowered.

What's the point of more crit chances when your crit damage is negated by Critical Resistance?

1 image/word completely debunks your entire point about plars attack frequency. The literal first skill available to templars from level 1 in the templar Aedric Spear skill line:

Jabs.

Still not enough for you? Fine here's another multi-hit skill within plars class kit that ticks multiple times per second:

class execute with max range and 500% execute scaling:

This also doesn't include the various class over time DPS skills that also contribute towards proccing the burning light passive of where there are 4 more of these skills.

As for "the point about crit chance when damage is negated by resistances" there is plenty, but 3 main ones include:
- Proc sets that require landing a critical strike to proc them (e.g. zaan, null arca, tarnished nightmare, etc.)
- Ability procs that require critical strikes to proc effects (e.g. crit surge healing)
- All around boost to damage and healing that stacks multiplicatively with other increases to damage and healing so even if the critical damage is being reduced it still outperforms not having crit chance at all.

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

[snip]

Agreed.
[edited to remove quote]

ZhuJiuyin · May 8

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

No one complains about Burning Light, that's because Templars have low attack frequency and slow movement. But Sorc has the highest attack frequency and movement speed in the game, and now with Static Reverb as an additional damage source (even if the probability is unstable), it still severely damages PvP. Adding another damage source to a class with such high attack frequency and this class happens to dominate both PvP and PvE, is simply the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

Furthermore, we're talking about "pure Nightblades," not a single skill line. Assassination is currently the only somewhat usable line for Nightblades, and even adding more abilities to Assassination won't make pure Nightblades overpowered.

What's the point of more crit chances when your crit damage is negated by Critical Resistance?

1 image/word completely debunks your entire point about plars attack frequency. The literal first skill available to templars from level 1 in the templar Aedric Spear skill line:

Jabs.

Still not enough for you? Fine here's another multi-hit skill within plars class kit that ticks multiple times per second:
class execute with max range and 500% execute scaling:

This also doesn't include the various class over time DPS skills that also contribute towards proccing the burning light passive of where there are 4 more of these skills.

As for "the point about crit chance when damage is negated by resistances" there is plenty, but 3 main ones include:
- Proc sets that require landing a critical strike to proc them (e.g. zaan, null arca, tarnished nightmare, etc.)
- Ability procs that require critical strikes to proc effects (e.g. crit surge healing)
- All around boost to damage and healing that stacks multiplicatively with other increases to damage and healing so even if the critical damage is being reduced it still outperforms not having crit chance at all.

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

[snip]

Agreed.

"Ability procs that require critical strikes to proc effects (e.g., crit surge healing)"—another pain point for Sorc 😥
A skill called crit surge doesn't provide a crit buff or crit damage buff. In fact, none of Sorc's active or passive abilities offer additional crit buffs or crit damage buffs (except for the named buff from BA, but that wasn't available until after U47).

Hopefully, the development team will truly address these pain points/dilemmas facing Sorc during the rework at the end of the year. Based on the current communication, I have high hopes for the current team.
[edited to remove quote]

Dracane · May 8

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Static Reverberation

This passive was a huge problem for pvp week 1. It was in a fine state after getting adjusted to 0.5 seconds. Its now back to being too powerful with 0.3 seconds cool down and being buffed to base 5% proc rate.

Part of the problem comes from sorc being too good at being able to proc it. 5% proc base doesnt sound like much but consider that a regular status effect build can deal up to 10 instances of seperate damage per second. For example

1-Vateshran destro proc
2-Burning status effect from vateshran
3-Light attack
4-Concussion from thread of war
5-Crushing shock (frost)
6-Crushing shock (fire)
7-Crushing shock (shock)
8-Chill from crushing shock
9-Burning from crushing shock
10- Concussion from crushing shock
11-Hurricane

10+ instances of seperate damage in a single second with a 5% base proc chance at full hp, skyrocketing to a certainty at lower health thresholds. This isnt just limited to this specific scenario either, bound armamant is 4 instance of seperate damage by itself and is by itself a burst damage and the burst damage having near certainty to proc additional damage turns it from a burst to an easy execute. In fact it turns basically everything in sorcs arsenal to an execute extremely easily.

Malevolent Promise was excluded from pvp for being too war crimey, well, this passive is the actual war crime. Please consider adding a once per second clause to it with battle spirit active. Proccing an extra instance of damage every second easily makes it one of the best pure class passives in the game, simply makes it less toxic by preventing it from being oppressive in pvp.

I have to disagree here.

You’re right about being able to stack stand effects but re-read your own post. Out of the 10 sources of status application only one comes from Sorc … just one.

Nothing else on that list is Sorc Specific which means that being a Sorc doesn’t make those skills any more effective. It’s not as though Sorcs can synergize those status effects better than any other class because any and every other class can slot 9 out of those 10 abilities, it’s just that Sorcs have the passive.

To be honest the main status I see Sorcs using here is Overcharge rather than any of the elementals and that’s really leaning a bit on LA & scribing, also outside of the class skill set.

Running a status effect build can hit hard in PvP but it leaves the build open to quite a lot because in order to maximize it requires specific supporting gear and attention to their mitigation. A status-effect Sorc vs a subclassed crit meta build, for example, is going to have a run for their money because they’re going to have to keep up shields & heal in a rotation versus just spamming LA + skill weaves.

Sorcs are not in a good place. I don’t know who thinks that but this observation really is evidence of that if Sorcs are leaning on status effect output rather than their own class skills.

These passives need to hit hard and the buff makes sense, it provides for a viable means to be competitive in the scope of subclasses builds until the Sorc refresh, which is the whole point. Static at 0.3 & 5% is where it needs to be.

What does the source of the skill have to do with anything? Are you guys just trying to be funny?

Because your argument is that Sorcs are somehow better able to make use of applying status effects.

That, factually, isn’t true because 90% of the sources of applying those status effects are available to every player, they’re not Sorc specific.

This means that, no, Sorcs do not have some extra benefit when it comes to applying status effects, anyone can use Crushing Shock, anyone can run Vateshran, anyone can light attack with a Destro staff, etc.

If Sorcs had clad specific skills that were better able to apply status effects then, yes, you’d be right; Sorcs would have an easier time than other classes but that isn’t the case.

I don’t think it’s right to ask for a passive to be nerfed simply because it synergizes with world skills; especially when the class skills for the class in question are so poor.

Using status effects as a main source of damage in PvP is both interesting and risky; and really only works if the player is running the Signet mythic, which, anyone else can slot too. This leaves a build like that open to quite a lot in PvP despite having some descent damage potential but is far from OP.

My argument is that sorc has an easy time proccing Static Reverbation passive. I'm sorry to say that literally everything you are talking about is irrelevant to the topic...

I'll put it in simple terms to be better understood. We dont consider Wild Adaptation weak because warden can maintain at most chilled and maybe hemorrhaging with its base class skills. We consider it strong because with elemental susceptibility, blood for blood and various other sets and skills warden is able to reach and maintain a respectable number of status effects.

Obviously we dont treat class masteries in a vacuum with only the class skills. That would be, absurd, ill put a stop to this nonsense that non class skills has to be disregarded while considering class masteries. I will also ask you to reconsider your bias on sorc, it seems to be clouding your judgment.

And what myself and others are telling you is that Sorcs don’t have as easy of a time proccing the passive as you seem to think.

Remember, Static doesn’t just proc per instance of damage, it procs per instance of damage within the 0.3s timeframe. So if a Sorc tosses Crushing Shock and deals 3 instances of damage all at once, then that counts as “one” for the purposes of Static because all 3 occurred at the same time and the passive has the 0.3s cooldown, so effectively, 2 out of the 3 instances don’t contribute to the passive.

Nobody is saying that you consider Mastery passives in a vacuum, what I’m saying is that you have to consider the current state of Sorc skills as they are now in the context of how much strength these passives should or should not have. Plus, Sorcs pay a penalty for having to slot world skills over their class skills in that they take a hit to their output in doing so which goes toward being able to proc Static in the first place.

When I talk about Sorcs using skills outside of their class it is relevant because Sorcs have no reliable spammable burst. Just about every class has at least one skill that’s a reliable heavy burst spam.

When you consider that Static only reliably procs after the targets health gets below a certain point you can see where this raises a problem for Sorcs in PvP, they need burst and they don’t have it and world skills only partially deliver on this.

In PvP, with Sorc having no heavy bursts and target players having strong self healing available, getting a target down to a low enough health for Static to do any consistent numbers isn’t as easy as you’re saying. Out of, let’s say, 5 or 6 instances of damage per GCD Static might proc once, and that’s only once their health hit gets lowered.

If Sorcs had a class skill like Merciless that scaled really high and could thereby chunk a players health in one burst and then allow Static to kick in and help the Sorc keep the targets health lower and keep applying the passive, then maybe you’d have a point but that’s not the case and no world skill is that strong either.

For comparison, Burning Light, for example, will proc FAR more consistently over the course of combat and do more damage than Static will since it can apply persistently, not just when targets are lower health.

Sorcs cannot realistically proc Static more than once per second, even though the passive cooldown is only 0.3s because Sorcs don’t have access to any skills that apply damage in fractional increments. Dealing multiple instances of damage all at the same time does not count each instance toward the passive.

Further, you have the health barrier to consider so the realistic amount of proc that can happen is far less than you’re thinking and testing shows that.

Even at relatively high health treshold like 85% hp 5 instances of damage with 20% proc chance each isnt a low proc rate and its basically a guarantee at even lower health tresholds.

But as you say if ''Sorcs cannot realistically proc Static more than once per second, even though the passive cooldown is only 0.3s because Sorcs don’t have access to any skills that apply damage in fractional increments. Dealing multiple instances of damage all at the same time does not count each instance toward the passive. '' than you wouldnt mind if the passive was adjusted to proc only once per second with battle spirit active so i have no idea why you are trying to argue with me when you agree with me.

Btw the skill you are looking for is BA ...

That’s not how this passive works.

If one deals 5 simultaneous instances of damage to a target they do not get a 20% chance EACH to proc. All 5 would constitute one chance and against a target that has 85% health that would be one 20% chance (5% base plus 15%, 1% for each missing percent of target health).

In order to get 5 chances to apply Static a Sorc would need to apply damage 5 separate times (not just 5 instances) which would mean 5 GCD or 5 seconds. Which takes me back to my original point that over 5 to 6 applications of damage (aka 5 or 6 seconds) this passive would likely proc once.

That’s nowhere near a guarantee proc chance. Plus, the damage doesn’t scale that awful high either, not given how limited the proc chance is.

Further, it’s only the BASE chance that’s 5%, it’s not 5% per missing health. It’s 5% plus 1% per missing health.

There is zero scenario where this passive has a 55%chance to apply damage against a target that has 90% health; that’s just factually wrong and it seems people might be confused as to how this passive actually works.

Now, yes; BA does apply at 0.3 increments, however, that’s the only available skill that aligns with the adjusted cooldown of Static and it’s not readily spammable, requiring a charge and it doesn’t scale anywhere near the damage of, say, Merciless. It’s not a burst and a full charge takes 1.3 seconds to fully execute, which, is why in PvP it’s not a commonly used skill. It’s just too slow and doesn’t deal enough damage in PvP to really be viable. So, again, on paper or just looking at tool tip, yes, one might think BA is a good skill to synergize with Static in PvP but the problem is neither scale to any strong damage value and none align with the strong burst damage PvP demands so there’s not really a good use case for the combo.

I PvP every day and I’ve rarely ever seen BA and I can understand why. It’s just not a good skill and I don’t think anyone is going to slot it just to try and proc Static. BA actually adds longer pacing potential to Static due to the charge full charge up factor so if anything BA holds this passive back even more.

Of course you can proc it more than once with a single skill, no its not hard and no it doesnt take a single gcd per proc.

Here is a single BA proccing it 3 times

Here is a single RS doing the same

Here is me proccing it 4 times a second with nothing but a la and a skill. Keep in mind that proccing it 4 times a sec should be hard because of the 0.3 sec cd but again, no it isnt because nobody deals all their damage in 0.3 sec intervals anyway, trying to fit all your damage in that little time bubble would actually be harder than not proccing it multiple times.

So yes i agree with you, proccing this passive more than once a second shouldnt be a thing with battle spirit active and i really hope Zos takes notice and adjusts it accordingly ...

You’re not proccing it 3 or 4 times per second, you’re proccing it 3 or 4 times per skill.

In the case of BA, yes, that is the only skill where 3 out of the 4 procs can occur within one second, the 4th would spill into the following second. But there’s a caveat here with BA in that in order to do this you have to have at least 3 or 4 charges, otherwise one cannot do this. BA isn’t a spammable skill so it’s not accurate to say that a Sorc could just use this skill as a means to excessively proc the passive in PvP.

Rapid Strikes takes more than a second to complete and more than 0.3 per strike to deliver so, yes, while it can proc multiple occurrences of the passive, it’s not doing so in less than a second it’s doing so per application which goes to pacing.

Lastly, using the skills on a low health target dummy isn’t reflective of actual PvP combat because you can whittle the health down and ensure a high proc chance which ignores the entire duration of wearing the health down, when the passive wasn’t proccing.

Get into a duel or any PvP venue and we won’t see these same results so when I say testing doesn’t show what your complaint is about that’s what I mean. Dummy parsing only shows that multiple instances of the passive can occur, which we all know, what it doesn’t show is the multiple instances happening collectively in under one second or in a PvP situation.

The only skill that can proc in less than a second is BA but for the charge up pacing reasons I mentioned before it’s not a reliable source of consistent proc which means it’s definitely not broken or in need of a nerf.

Just a friendly query. Are you certain that Bound Armaments is rarely used and that it's bad? Whenever I see any video or stream played as Sorc, they will have Bound Armaments and use it all the time. I dislike that skill, because it does not synergize with Overload centric statregies, but it seems to deal more damage for me than Crystal Fragments with all its Sundered procs.

With Sundered, yes it does more, but the reason Stam Sorc's generally don't like using is 2 fold:
Probably the easiest to dodge ability in the game = Daggers have a 0.25s delay; 1m range is 0.6s~1.35s and 28m is 1.1s~1.85s. Grim Focus is 0.35s~1.1s, and Insta Frag is 0.53~1.08s. Since the damage is spread out, it not only reduces burst, but it makes it highly telegraphed to dodge all or at least half of the ability.

It has a 10s timer = Nearly useless for melee builds on a Sorc that frequently finds itself weaving in and out of combat to reset with Streak/Dark Deal. It's much better for a ranged build, but then you're getting into that massive delay I discussed above.

Great damage overall, but not bursty, easy to avoid, and frankly annoying to use because you frequently lose stacks. Grim Focus stacks last forever, hit faster, harder, and heal in melee, all while being in a much better skill line. Frag is just more consistent, random but still ends up once every 3s vs once every 5-7s due to losing stacks or wasted skill casts.

The only streamers I really saw run it were Epic, Sekar, and Eman.. and I'm pretty sure it's just because they were so used to the Stam Sorc playstyle, they didn't really adapt with hybridization. I asked epic once and he just said he didn't like Curse, and I mean I agree because it can be purged, but I still find it easier to use and line up than BA. BA's one saving grace is that it works well with "Damage Done" bonuses since it ticks multiple times, it's better for pressure, Frag/Curse is better for consistent burst.

At one point I did some math before Signet became a thing for BA vs Relentless Focus. BA was -20% at 0 Sunder, -10% at 1, equal at 2, +10% at 3, and +20% at 4. Take that information as you will, personally, feels worse to me and I subclassed out Daedric Summoning any chance I got. Mind you, Mercilous is much better, but 5 stacks is harder to compare.

Put it this way.. BA is so unreliable, that before it got double stacks, Major Savagery, and Sunder chance, I had it slotted 99% of the time just for the 8% Max HP and 8% Max Stamina. I rarely ever casted it because it didn't do enough.

Edit: The chance for BA is 15% per Dagger now, it used to be 3%. BA is single target direct damage, so it should of had 10% to begin with, but that's an entirely seperate issue I have with ZOS and their inability to code things properly or consistently. At a 15% chance and no bonuses, you'll average 0.6 Sunder per cast, less than 1, with 2 pieces of Charged it becomes an average of 2 Sundered procs a cast, slightly more with CP.

Ah it is a pleasure. You always take so much time to make your point and give practical and proven examples. You have my thanks.

I am glad you say this, because I do not like Bound Armaments, but seeing everyone use it made me feel forced into it. Now I feel a bit more at ease for not using it. I still wonder if all those people can be so wrong. Usually when I see a Sorc, I will also see those floating daggers.

VinnyGambini · May 8

Pinktraining wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Static Reverberation

This passive was a huge problem for pvp week 1. It was in a fine state after getting adjusted to 0.5 seconds. Its now back to being too powerful with 0.3 seconds cool down and being buffed to base 5% proc rate.

Part of the problem comes from sorc being too good at being able to proc it. 5% proc base doesnt sound like much but consider that a regular status effect build can deal up to 10 instances of seperate damage per second. For example

1-Vateshran destro proc
2-Burning status effect from vateshran
3-Light attack
4-Concussion from thread of war
5-Crushing shock (frost)
6-Crushing shock (fire)
7-Crushing shock (shock)
8-Chill from crushing shock
9-Burning from crushing shock
10- Concussion from crushing shock
11-Hurricane

10+ instances of seperate damage in a single second with a 5% base proc chance at full hp, skyrocketing to a certainty at lower health thresholds. This isnt just limited to this specific scenario either, bound armamant is 4 instance of seperate damage by itself and is by itself a burst damage and the burst damage having near certainty to proc additional damage turns it from a burst to an easy execute. In fact it turns basically everything in sorcs arsenal to an execute extremely easily.

Malevolent Promise was excluded from pvp for being too war crimey, well, this passive is the actual war crime. Please consider adding a once per second clause to it with battle spirit active. Proccing an extra instance of damage every second easily makes it one of the best pure class passives in the game, simply makes it less toxic by preventing it from being oppressive in pvp.

TBH, this is more of a condemnation of how status effects and ticky-tack micro ticks of damage have gotten out of control in recent updates than it says anything about Sorc itself. The only actual Sorc skill even in here is Hurricane.

Would much prefer that the Vate Crutch Staff, Ele Sus, and Force Pulse get nerfed before anything else happens. Why do we have things like Rapid Strikes having nerfed status effect chance per tick while Force Pulse skates with the full Single Target Direct Damage multiplier? Seems like nerfing that down to Single Target DOT levels would be a nice place to start balancing. Then we can remove the free cast status of Ele Sus and perhaps delete the auto status effect proc as well.

I think maybe just nerfing ele sus to cost 1-2k mag would be a fine nerf. I wouldnt wanna see the 7.5 seconds status procs removed because its such a unique thing but yes its a really strong skill, maybe adjusting the proc rate to 8-10? Dunno.

I am and honestly have always been a fan of the status effect playstyle and i'll be honest what i described has also been possible a few years back, its just that the buff to status effects uhhh was it last year, in combination with signet made the playstyle a lot more viable, but static reverbation might be too synergistic with the playstyle and sorc in general. I mean, 4 hits on BA itself, 5 with la and did i mention each hit of BA can proc sundered individually and has higher than normal sundered proc rate not mentioned on the skill itself?, yeah thats up to 9 individual damage instances with nothing but a light attack and a single skill

I disagree, because this will impact PvE, especially since Staff is already significantly weaker than Dual Wield. Not to mention the current state of Bound Armaments now, which was hard-won by many sorc players; otherwise, Bound Armaments would simply be a degraded version of Grim Focus.

I believe a better balancing approach would be to prevent status effects from triggering Static Reverberatio. This should reduce the trigger frequency and maintain relative balance until the Sorc is reworked.

Sorc should also be subject to a "battle spirit" mechanic, reducing the base chance of Static Reverberation in PvP to -10%!

Every single Sorc passive should be HALVED in PvP!

Conservation of Energy - reduce effectiveness in PvP by HALF!

Font of Power - reduce spell dmg boost in PvP by HALF!

Calculated Defense - reduce shield size in PvP by HALF!

Sphere of Influence - reduce recovery in PvP by HALF!

And then on top of that reduce by 55% by battle spirit!

It's finally time to take care of this broken class in PvP!

ItsNotLiving · May 8

Nightblade vs. Sorcerer beef has been going on since 2014 lol. Except now nobody complains about Shields or Cloak, its all about math and damage formulas barf.

Firstmep · May 8

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Nightblade vs. Sorcerer beef has been going on since 2014 lol. Except now nobody complains about Shields or Cloak, its all about math and damage formulas barf.

Dk rework reignited class envy with a vengeance. Everyone is going to compare their main to reworked classes until it's all done.

Avran_Sylt · May 8

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Exposing tedious mathematical arguments doesn't prove that Reverberation's current state is acceptable. In fact, it only makes people dislike Sorc and Reverberation more. Nobody likes having to calculate probabilities in the tense atmosphere of PvP. Reverberation either needs to be nerfed to a 5-second cooldown or have its damage nerfed by 50%, otherwise there's absolutely no reason to accept the current version of Reverberation into the live server.

Can NB mains who have absolutely zero clue about sorcerer stop commenting on sorcerers trying to get them deleted from the game.

It's been 10+ years already, enough is enough, stick to your own class and let others have a chance to have fun playing their class.

What does this have to do with "Nightblade players"? Don't "Nightblade players" have the right to comment on balance? Or do you not want the game to be balanced so you can continue to dominate with Sorc?

Even more absurd is that some people actually think Pressure Points are better than Expert Mage. How can 2.5% Critical Chance be better than 108 Weapon Damage? Don't forget that in PvP, all experienced players have very high Critical Resistance; 2.5% Critical Chance is practically useless! Even in PvE, 108 Weapon Damage is better because Sorc can recover more health using Surge and Blood Magic!

You're playing the wrong game man. The past year with subclassing NB's Assassination line has dominated the meta including other crit related skill lines to stack Crit Damage to ridiculous levels with delayed burst.

Every build needs a Major Resolve skill, so you have 7 options, the most obvious come down to Restoring Light and Storm Calling. Rune Focus is great, but if you don't need the sustain and prefer offense, Storm Calling is much more advantageous due to having well balanced passives and the best mobility skill in the game. Just so happens that during this crit meta, players are picking up Assassination and Animal Companions, both of which have Crit Damage, and you also need a Major Brutality/Sustain skill, to which Betty works well for. This pushes out the great Restoring Light line in favour of Storm Calling.

No one is picking up Storm Calling strictly for their 108 w/s damage, and not a single person is touching Dark Magic and Daedric Summoning the same way no one is touching Shadow or Siphoning. So what exactly is your point? Assassination has some of, if not the best passives and abilities in the game, why would you even begin to compare these in a vaccum like that?

Is it PVE? Crit chance is also meta there, Assassination, and Herald of the Tome are the top picks on every build, but it's hard to take you seriously when you're the same person that said Sorc has the best cleave in the game because of Empower + Overload. We get it, you hate Sorc, cool. News flash, both NB and Sorc have similar problems of being prejudiced against for dealing too much single target DPS while ignoring the fact that they have more complex rotations, reliant on weaving, and no cleave. We're in the same boat.

This whole discussion started based on the notion that proc sets and status effects proc Static Reverb which is completely false. No one here is trying to knock NB down, in fact many of us commented on how underpowered the Masteries were.

This is a thread about class mastery.

Technically also Scribing class mastery as well (see Warden Charm): the base class. Not just a stat-stick subclass skill-line.

Just because one line in combination with another set of sublclasses lines doesn't make pureclass NB somehow cream of the crop.

Just like how you not that even with the games best mobility+stun in the game, Stormcalling is a great line as well.

Personally speaking, IMO a 1-slot mobility/stun is much more versatile than the Assassination skill-line when pureclassing. (especially in a skill-line that can use Overload LA into Streak into Overload LA)

acanca · May 8

.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Exposing tedious mathematical arguments doesn't prove that Reverberation's current state is acceptable. In fact, it only makes people dislike Sorc and Reverberation more. Nobody likes having to calculate probabilities in the tense atmosphere of PvP. Reverberation either needs to be nerfed to a 5-second cooldown or have its damage nerfed by 50%, otherwise there's absolutely no reason to accept the current version of Reverberation into the live server.

Can NB mains who have absolutely zero clue about sorcerer stop commenting on sorcerers trying to get them deleted from the game.

It's been 10+ years already, enough is enough, stick to your own class and let others have a chance to have fun playing their class.

What does this have to do with "Nightblade players"? Don't "Nightblade players" have the right to comment on balance? Or do you not want the game to be balanced so you can continue to dominate with Sorc?

Even more absurd is that some people actually think Pressure Points are better than Expert Mage. How can 2.5% Critical Chance be better than 108 Weapon Damage? Don't forget that in PvP, all experienced players have very high Critical Resistance; 2.5% Critical Chance is practically useless! Even in PvE, 108 Weapon Damage is better because Sorc can recover more health using Surge and Blood Magic!

You're playing the wrong game man. The past year with subclassing NB's Assassination line has dominated the meta including other crit related skill lines to stack Crit Damage to ridiculous levels with delayed burst.

Every build needs a Major Resolve skill, so you have 7 options, the most obvious come down to Restoring Light and Storm Calling. Rune Focus is great, but if you don't need the sustain and prefer offense, Storm Calling is much more advantageous due to having well balanced passives and the best mobility skill in the game. Just so happens that during this crit meta, players are picking up Assassination and Animal Companions, both of which have Crit Damage, and you also need a Major Brutality/Sustain skill, to which Betty works well for. This pushes out the great Restoring Light line in favour of Storm Calling.

No one is picking up Storm Calling strictly for their 108 w/s damage, and not a single person is touching Dark Magic and Daedric Summoning the same way no one is touching Shadow or Siphoning. So what exactly is your point? Assassination has some of, if not the best passives and abilities in the game, why would you even begin to compare these in a vaccum like that?

Is it PVE? Crit chance is also meta there, Assassination, and Herald of the Tome are the top picks on every build, but it's hard to take you seriously when you're the same person that said Sorc has the best cleave in the game because of Empower + Overload. We get it, you hate Sorc, cool. News flash, both NB and Sorc have similar problems of being prejudiced against for dealing too much single target DPS while ignoring the fact that they have more complex rotations, reliant on weaving, and no cleave. We're in the same boat.

This whole discussion started based on the notion that proc sets and status effects proc Static Reverb which is completely false. No one here is trying to knock NB down, in fact many of us commented on how underpowered the Masteries were.

This is a thread about class mastery.

Technically also Scribing class mastery as well (see Warden Charm): the base class. Not just a stat-stick subclass skill-line.

Just because one line in combination with another set of sublclasses lines doesn't make pureclass NB somehow cream of the crop.

Just like how you not that even with the games best mobility+stun in the game, Stormcalling is a great line as well.

Personally speaking, IMO a 1-slot mobility/stun is much more versatile than the Assassination skill-line when pureclassing. (especially in a skill-line that can use Overload LA into Streak into Overload LA)

The thing that made assasination so desirable for both pve and pvp is that 99% offensive power of NB class is focused in just 1 skill line and the skills are great for both pve and pvp. They shuffled concealed weapon from shadow to assasination before subclassing and that consolidated most of the offensive power into that single line and during subclassing they took away the weapon damage from grim resolve but in exchange gave it major prophecy while robbing it away from cloak and that was imo the last declawing of NB's other lines.

Before that changed i could at least use shadow line on some brawlers because the max hp passives + dodge roll reduction on getting hit as well as saving a bar space by not using a major resolve skill was nice and being able to free up a bar space on front bar by slotting cloak on backbar was nice as well. But after they robbed the line of major prophecy its kind of hard to justify using it.

So yeah if you took assasination while subclassing you were basically 99% of an nb and then also some other class.

NxJoeyD · May 8

Pinktraining wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Exposing tedious mathematical arguments doesn't prove that Reverberation's current state is acceptable. In fact, it only makes people dislike Sorc and Reverberation more. Nobody likes having to calculate probabilities in the tense atmosphere of PvP. Reverberation either needs to be nerfed to a 5-second cooldown or have its damage nerfed by 50%, otherwise there's absolutely no reason to accept the current version of Reverberation into the live server.

Can NB mains who have absolutely zero clue about sorcerer stop commenting on sorcerers trying to get them deleted from the game.

It's been 10+ years already, enough is enough, stick to your own class and let others have a chance to have fun playing their class.

What does this have to do with "Nightblade players"? Don't "Nightblade players" have the right to comment on balance? Or do you not want the game to be balanced so you can continue to dominate with Sorc?

Even more absurd is that some people actually think Pressure Points are better than Expert Mage. How can 2.5% Critical Chance be better than 108 Weapon Damage? Don't forget that in PvP, all experienced players have very high Critical Resistance; 2.5% Critical Chance is practically useless! Even in PvE, 108 Weapon Damage is better because Sorc can recover more health using Surge and Blood Magic!

You're playing the wrong game man. The past year with subclassing NB's Assassination line has dominated the meta including other crit related skill lines to stack Crit Damage to ridiculous levels with delayed burst.

Every build needs a Major Resolve skill, so you have 7 options, the most obvious come down to Restoring Light and Storm Calling. Rune Focus is great, but if you don't need the sustain and prefer offense, Storm Calling is much more advantageous due to having well balanced passives and the best mobility skill in the game. Just so happens that during this crit meta, players are picking up Assassination and Animal Companions, both of which have Crit Damage, and you also need a Major Brutality/Sustain skill, to which Betty works well for. This pushes out the great Restoring Light line in favour of Storm Calling.

No one is picking up Storm Calling strictly for their 108 w/s damage, and not a single person is touching Dark Magic and Daedric Summoning the same way no one is touching Shadow or Siphoning. So what exactly is your point? Assassination has some of, if not the best passives and abilities in the game, why would you even begin to compare these in a vaccum like that?

Is it PVE? Crit chance is also meta there, Assassination, and Herald of the Tome are the top picks on every build, but it's hard to take you seriously when you're the same person that said Sorc has the best cleave in the game because of Empower + Overload. We get it, you hate Sorc, cool. News flash, both NB and Sorc have similar problems of being prejudiced against for dealing too much single target DPS while ignoring the fact that they have more complex rotations, reliant on weaving, and no cleave. We're in the same boat.

This whole discussion started based on the notion that proc sets and status effects proc Static Reverb which is completely false. No one here is trying to knock NB down, in fact many of us commented on how underpowered the Masteries were.

Sorc has no shortage of AoE damage now. With class mastery, Sorc can deal considerable AoE damage through Conservation of Energy and Shattering Spines. Shattering Spines is undoubtedly Sorc's most powerful AoE spam, not to mention it also inflicts immobilize and Major Maim, effects that are extremely useful in both PvP and PvE.

Can we stop pretending Sorc is weak? Since U35, Sorc has undoubtedly been the strongest and most played class. The ubiquitous Lightning Staves heavy attacks are proof enough.

You’re joking right? … nobody slots Shattering Spines, it’s a dog water skill that only does damage to enemies that were “encased”. Given how many sources of immobilization immunity there are in the game nobody with any experience in the game would slot this skill in PvP. There’s better sources of Maim.

AoE effects work in PvP but the mechanics behind Sorcs AoE skill are pretty weak. Lightning Flood and any of the ground based AoEs are easily avoidable. Arguably Atro is the best AoE in the Sorc tool kit and it’s an Ult, but compare that to Necro’s Colossus which deals 3x high scaling bursts and applies a more beneficial direct status effect, whereas Atro applies ones lesser scaling burst and offers a buff only triggered by an ally synergy, not even the Sorc themselves can trigger it.

In PvP crit & burst are king and Sorcs have neither. The only “go-to” Sorcs have are heavy attack builds which is extremely limited and really more viable for PvE than PvP .. Even with that Sorc skills aren’t at the top of the Logs in PvE, Arcanists are.

MashmalloMan · May 8

Dracane wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Static Reverberation

This passive was a huge problem for pvp week 1. It was in a fine state after getting adjusted to 0.5 seconds. Its now back to being too powerful with 0.3 seconds cool down and being buffed to base 5% proc rate.

Part of the problem comes from sorc being too good at being able to proc it. 5% proc base doesnt sound like much but consider that a regular status effect build can deal up to 10 instances of seperate damage per second. For example

1-Vateshran destro proc
2-Burning status effect from vateshran
3-Light attack
4-Concussion from thread of war
5-Crushing shock (frost)
6-Crushing shock (fire)
7-Crushing shock (shock)
8-Chill from crushing shock
9-Burning from crushing shock
10- Concussion from crushing shock
11-Hurricane

10+ instances of seperate damage in a single second with a 5% base proc chance at full hp, skyrocketing to a certainty at lower health thresholds. This isnt just limited to this specific scenario either, bound armamant is 4 instance of seperate damage by itself and is by itself a burst damage and the burst damage having near certainty to proc additional damage turns it from a burst to an easy execute. In fact it turns basically everything in sorcs arsenal to an execute extremely easily.

Malevolent Promise was excluded from pvp for being too war crimey, well, this passive is the actual war crime. Please consider adding a once per second clause to it with battle spirit active. Proccing an extra instance of damage every second easily makes it one of the best pure class passives in the game, simply makes it less toxic by preventing it from being oppressive in pvp.

I have to disagree here.

You’re right about being able to stack stand effects but re-read your own post. Out of the 10 sources of status application only one comes from Sorc … just one.

Nothing else on that list is Sorc Specific which means that being a Sorc doesn’t make those skills any more effective. It’s not as though Sorcs can synergize those status effects better than any other class because any and every other class can slot 9 out of those 10 abilities, it’s just that Sorcs have the passive.

To be honest the main status I see Sorcs using here is Overcharge rather than any of the elementals and that’s really leaning a bit on LA & scribing, also outside of the class skill set.

Running a status effect build can hit hard in PvP but it leaves the build open to quite a lot because in order to maximize it requires specific supporting gear and attention to their mitigation. A status-effect Sorc vs a subclassed crit meta build, for example, is going to have a run for their money because they’re going to have to keep up shields & heal in a rotation versus just spamming LA + skill weaves.

Sorcs are not in a good place. I don’t know who thinks that but this observation really is evidence of that if Sorcs are leaning on status effect output rather than their own class skills.

These passives need to hit hard and the buff makes sense, it provides for a viable means to be competitive in the scope of subclasses builds until the Sorc refresh, which is the whole point. Static at 0.3 & 5% is where it needs to be.

What does the source of the skill have to do with anything? Are you guys just trying to be funny?

Because your argument is that Sorcs are somehow better able to make use of applying status effects.

That, factually, isn’t true because 90% of the sources of applying those status effects are available to every player, they’re not Sorc specific.

This means that, no, Sorcs do not have some extra benefit when it comes to applying status effects, anyone can use Crushing Shock, anyone can run Vateshran, anyone can light attack with a Destro staff, etc.

If Sorcs had clad specific skills that were better able to apply status effects then, yes, you’d be right; Sorcs would have an easier time than other classes but that isn’t the case.

I don’t think it’s right to ask for a passive to be nerfed simply because it synergizes with world skills; especially when the class skills for the class in question are so poor.

Using status effects as a main source of damage in PvP is both interesting and risky; and really only works if the player is running the Signet mythic, which, anyone else can slot too. This leaves a build like that open to quite a lot in PvP despite having some descent damage potential but is far from OP.

My argument is that sorc has an easy time proccing Static Reverbation passive. I'm sorry to say that literally everything you are talking about is irrelevant to the topic...

I'll put it in simple terms to be better understood. We dont consider Wild Adaptation weak because warden can maintain at most chilled and maybe hemorrhaging with its base class skills. We consider it strong because with elemental susceptibility, blood for blood and various other sets and skills warden is able to reach and maintain a respectable number of status effects.

Obviously we dont treat class masteries in a vacuum with only the class skills. That would be, absurd, ill put a stop to this nonsense that non class skills has to be disregarded while considering class masteries. I will also ask you to reconsider your bias on sorc, it seems to be clouding your judgment.

And what myself and others are telling you is that Sorcs don’t have as easy of a time proccing the passive as you seem to think.

Remember, Static doesn’t just proc per instance of damage, it procs per instance of damage within the 0.3s timeframe. So if a Sorc tosses Crushing Shock and deals 3 instances of damage all at once, then that counts as “one” for the purposes of Static because all 3 occurred at the same time and the passive has the 0.3s cooldown, so effectively, 2 out of the 3 instances don’t contribute to the passive.

Nobody is saying that you consider Mastery passives in a vacuum, what I’m saying is that you have to consider the current state of Sorc skills as they are now in the context of how much strength these passives should or should not have. Plus, Sorcs pay a penalty for having to slot world skills over their class skills in that they take a hit to their output in doing so which goes toward being able to proc Static in the first place.

When I talk about Sorcs using skills outside of their class it is relevant because Sorcs have no reliable spammable burst. Just about every class has at least one skill that’s a reliable heavy burst spam.

When you consider that Static only reliably procs after the targets health gets below a certain point you can see where this raises a problem for Sorcs in PvP, they need burst and they don’t have it and world skills only partially deliver on this.

In PvP, with Sorc having no heavy bursts and target players having strong self healing available, getting a target down to a low enough health for Static to do any consistent numbers isn’t as easy as you’re saying. Out of, let’s say, 5 or 6 instances of damage per GCD Static might proc once, and that’s only once their health hit gets lowered.

If Sorcs had a class skill like Merciless that scaled really high and could thereby chunk a players health in one burst and then allow Static to kick in and help the Sorc keep the targets health lower and keep applying the passive, then maybe you’d have a point but that’s not the case and no world skill is that strong either.

For comparison, Burning Light, for example, will proc FAR more consistently over the course of combat and do more damage than Static will since it can apply persistently, not just when targets are lower health.

Sorcs cannot realistically proc Static more than once per second, even though the passive cooldown is only 0.3s because Sorcs don’t have access to any skills that apply damage in fractional increments. Dealing multiple instances of damage all at the same time does not count each instance toward the passive.

Further, you have the health barrier to consider so the realistic amount of proc that can happen is far less than you’re thinking and testing shows that.

Even at relatively high health treshold like 85% hp 5 instances of damage with 20% proc chance each isnt a low proc rate and its basically a guarantee at even lower health tresholds.

But as you say if ''Sorcs cannot realistically proc Static more than once per second, even though the passive cooldown is only 0.3s because Sorcs don’t have access to any skills that apply damage in fractional increments. Dealing multiple instances of damage all at the same time does not count each instance toward the passive. '' than you wouldnt mind if the passive was adjusted to proc only once per second with battle spirit active so i have no idea why you are trying to argue with me when you agree with me.

Btw the skill you are looking for is BA ...

That’s not how this passive works.

If one deals 5 simultaneous instances of damage to a target they do not get a 20% chance EACH to proc. All 5 would constitute one chance and against a target that has 85% health that would be one 20% chance (5% base plus 15%, 1% for each missing percent of target health).

In order to get 5 chances to apply Static a Sorc would need to apply damage 5 separate times (not just 5 instances) which would mean 5 GCD or 5 seconds. Which takes me back to my original point that over 5 to 6 applications of damage (aka 5 or 6 seconds) this passive would likely proc once.

That’s nowhere near a guarantee proc chance. Plus, the damage doesn’t scale that awful high either, not given how limited the proc chance is.

Further, it’s only the BASE chance that’s 5%, it’s not 5% per missing health. It’s 5% plus 1% per missing health.

There is zero scenario where this passive has a 55%chance to apply damage against a target that has 90% health; that’s just factually wrong and it seems people might be confused as to how this passive actually works.

Now, yes; BA does apply at 0.3 increments, however, that’s the only available skill that aligns with the adjusted cooldown of Static and it’s not readily spammable, requiring a charge and it doesn’t scale anywhere near the damage of, say, Merciless. It’s not a burst and a full charge takes 1.3 seconds to fully execute, which, is why in PvP it’s not a commonly used skill. It’s just too slow and doesn’t deal enough damage in PvP to really be viable. So, again, on paper or just looking at tool tip, yes, one might think BA is a good skill to synergize with Static in PvP but the problem is neither scale to any strong damage value and none align with the strong burst damage PvP demands so there’s not really a good use case for the combo.

I PvP every day and I’ve rarely ever seen BA and I can understand why. It’s just not a good skill and I don’t think anyone is going to slot it just to try and proc Static. BA actually adds longer pacing potential to Static due to the charge full charge up factor so if anything BA holds this passive back even more.

Of course you can proc it more than once with a single skill, no its not hard and no it doesnt take a single gcd per proc.

Here is a single BA proccing it 3 times

Here is a single RS doing the same

Here is me proccing it 4 times a second with nothing but a la and a skill. Keep in mind that proccing it 4 times a sec should be hard because of the 0.3 sec cd but again, no it isnt because nobody deals all their damage in 0.3 sec intervals anyway, trying to fit all your damage in that little time bubble would actually be harder than not proccing it multiple times.

So yes i agree with you, proccing this passive more than once a second shouldnt be a thing with battle spirit active and i really hope Zos takes notice and adjusts it accordingly ...

You’re not proccing it 3 or 4 times per second, you’re proccing it 3 or 4 times per skill.

In the case of BA, yes, that is the only skill where 3 out of the 4 procs can occur within one second, the 4th would spill into the following second. But there’s a caveat here with BA in that in order to do this you have to have at least 3 or 4 charges, otherwise one cannot do this. BA isn’t a spammable skill so it’s not accurate to say that a Sorc could just use this skill as a means to excessively proc the passive in PvP.

Rapid Strikes takes more than a second to complete and more than 0.3 per strike to deliver so, yes, while it can proc multiple occurrences of the passive, it’s not doing so in less than a second it’s doing so per application which goes to pacing.

Lastly, using the skills on a low health target dummy isn’t reflective of actual PvP combat because you can whittle the health down and ensure a high proc chance which ignores the entire duration of wearing the health down, when the passive wasn’t proccing.

Get into a duel or any PvP venue and we won’t see these same results so when I say testing doesn’t show what your complaint is about that’s what I mean. Dummy parsing only shows that multiple instances of the passive can occur, which we all know, what it doesn’t show is the multiple instances happening collectively in under one second or in a PvP situation.

The only skill that can proc in less than a second is BA but for the charge up pacing reasons I mentioned before it’s not a reliable source of consistent proc which means it’s definitely not broken or in need of a nerf.

Just a friendly query. Are you certain that Bound Armaments is rarely used and that it's bad? Whenever I see any video or stream played as Sorc, they will have Bound Armaments and use it all the time. I dislike that skill, because it does not synergize with Overload centric statregies, but it seems to deal more damage for me than Crystal Fragments with all its Sundered procs.

With Sundered, yes it does more, but the reason Stam Sorc's generally don't like using is 2 fold:
Probably the easiest to dodge ability in the game = Daggers have a 0.25s delay; 1m range is 0.6s~1.35s and 28m is 1.1s~1.85s. Grim Focus is 0.35s~1.1s, and Insta Frag is 0.53~1.08s. Since the damage is spread out, it not only reduces burst, but it makes it highly telegraphed to dodge all or at least half of the ability.

It has a 10s timer = Nearly useless for melee builds on a Sorc that frequently finds itself weaving in and out of combat to reset with Streak/Dark Deal. It's much better for a ranged build, but then you're getting into that massive delay I discussed above.

Great damage overall, but not bursty, easy to avoid, and frankly annoying to use because you frequently lose stacks. Grim Focus stacks last forever, hit faster, harder, and heal in melee, all while being in a much better skill line. Frag is just more consistent, random but still ends up once every 3s vs once every 5-7s due to losing stacks or wasted skill casts.

The only streamers I really saw run it were Epic, Sekar, and Eman.. and I'm pretty sure it's just because they were so used to the Stam Sorc playstyle, they didn't really adapt with hybridization. I asked epic once and he just said he didn't like Curse, and I mean I agree because it can be purged, but I still find it easier to use and line up than BA. BA's one saving grace is that it works well with "Damage Done" bonuses since it ticks multiple times, it's better for pressure, Frag/Curse is better for consistent burst.

At one point I did some math before Signet became a thing for BA vs Relentless Focus. BA was -20% at 0 Sunder, -10% at 1, equal at 2, +10% at 3, and +20% at 4. Take that information as you will, personally, feels worse to me and I subclassed out Daedric Summoning any chance I got. Mind you, Mercilous is much better, but 5 stacks is harder to compare.

Put it this way.. BA is so unreliable, that before it got double stacks, Major Savagery, and Sunder chance, I had it slotted 99% of the time just for the 8% Max HP and 8% Max Stamina. I rarely ever casted it because it didn't do enough.

Edit: The chance for BA is 15% per Dagger now, it used to be 3%. BA is single target direct damage, so it should of had 10% to begin with, but that's an entirely seperate issue I have with ZOS and their inability to code things properly or consistently. At a 15% chance and no bonuses, you'll average 0.6 Sunder per cast, less than 1, with 2 pieces of Charged it becomes an average of 2 Sundered procs a cast, slightly more with CP.

Ah it is a pleasure. You always take so much time to make your point and give practical and proven examples. You have my thanks.

I am glad you say this, because I do not like Bound Armaments, but seeing everyone use it made me feel forced into it. Now I feel a bit more at ease for not using it. I still wonder if all those people can be so wrong. Usually when I see a Sorc, I will also see those floating daggers.

Well thank you, you too

Me too, but as we've discussed recently, a popularity contest doesn't mean something is objectively good. I haven't genuinly ever felt threatened by it the same way I would for Incap, Merc, Shalks, Curse, Frags, Whip, Deep Breath, etc, any other burst skill I can think of is more deadly.

Don't get me wrong, it's decent from range when so much is dodged anyway, might be even better this patch with Signet, D Staff, and CP for an average of 3 Sunders a cast, but why not just use Force Pulse builds for 3~7 status effects a cast. Static Reverb might also make it more advantagous to pick with U50 if you really wanted to build for it.

Mind you, BA includes Major Savagery/Prophecy, and a pure Sorc only has 3 options via Camo Hunter, Inner Light, or potions. Since they've picked Daedric Summoning, they're already choosing fantasy/role play over min/maxing with subclassing, BA by comparison to those 3 becomes more advantagous, especially when you consider Minor Berserk is provided by Mono and/or Dark Deal.

Either way, it has potential if they bumped up stack duration and all daggers landed closer together. The DPS isn't really the problem anymore with Sunder closing the gap ever so slightly.

Myrtogen · May 8

From my perspective as an Xbox player and thusly haven't experienced if firsthand, I don't feel that the buffs to nighthlade nor templar mgiht be substantial enough when compared to the powerhouse that is subclassing and arcanist. Nightblade simply doesnt provide enough cleave to warrant full usage, so perhaps skills buffing cleave might improve relevance as a pure class.

NxJoeyD · May 8

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Static Reverberation

This passive was a huge problem for pvp week 1. It was in a fine state after getting adjusted to 0.5 seconds. Its now back to being too powerful with 0.3 seconds cool down and being buffed to base 5% proc rate.

Part of the problem comes from sorc being too good at being able to proc it. 5% proc base doesnt sound like much but consider that a regular status effect build can deal up to 10 instances of seperate damage per second. For example

1-Vateshran destro proc
2-Burning status effect from vateshran
3-Light attack
4-Concussion from thread of war
5-Crushing shock (frost)
6-Crushing shock (fire)
7-Crushing shock (shock)
8-Chill from crushing shock
9-Burning from crushing shock
10- Concussion from crushing shock
11-Hurricane

10+ instances of seperate damage in a single second with a 5% base proc chance at full hp, skyrocketing to a certainty at lower health thresholds. This isnt just limited to this specific scenario either, bound armamant is 4 instance of seperate damage by itself and is by itself a burst damage and the burst damage having near certainty to proc additional damage turns it from a burst to an easy execute. In fact it turns basically everything in sorcs arsenal to an execute extremely easily.

Malevolent Promise was excluded from pvp for being too war crimey, well, this passive is the actual war crime. Please consider adding a once per second clause to it with battle spirit active. Proccing an extra instance of damage every second easily makes it one of the best pure class passives in the game, simply makes it less toxic by preventing it from being oppressive in pvp.

I have to disagree here.

You’re right about being able to stack stand effects but re-read your own post. Out of the 10 sources of status application only one comes from Sorc … just one.

Nothing else on that list is Sorc Specific which means that being a Sorc doesn’t make those skills any more effective. It’s not as though Sorcs can synergize those status effects better than any other class because any and every other class can slot 9 out of those 10 abilities, it’s just that Sorcs have the passive.

To be honest the main status I see Sorcs using here is Overcharge rather than any of the elementals and that’s really leaning a bit on LA & scribing, also outside of the class skill set.

Running a status effect build can hit hard in PvP but it leaves the build open to quite a lot because in order to maximize it requires specific supporting gear and attention to their mitigation. A status-effect Sorc vs a subclassed crit meta build, for example, is going to have a run for their money because they’re going to have to keep up shields & heal in a rotation versus just spamming LA + skill weaves.

Sorcs are not in a good place. I don’t know who thinks that but this observation really is evidence of that if Sorcs are leaning on status effect output rather than their own class skills.

These passives need to hit hard and the buff makes sense, it provides for a viable means to be competitive in the scope of subclasses builds until the Sorc refresh, which is the whole point. Static at 0.3 & 5% is where it needs to be.

What does the source of the skill have to do with anything? Are you guys just trying to be funny?

Because your argument is that Sorcs are somehow better able to make use of applying status effects.

That, factually, isn’t true because 90% of the sources of applying those status effects are available to every player, they’re not Sorc specific.

This means that, no, Sorcs do not have some extra benefit when it comes to applying status effects, anyone can use Crushing Shock, anyone can run Vateshran, anyone can light attack with a Destro staff, etc.

If Sorcs had clad specific skills that were better able to apply status effects then, yes, you’d be right; Sorcs would have an easier time than other classes but that isn’t the case.

I don’t think it’s right to ask for a passive to be nerfed simply because it synergizes with world skills; especially when the class skills for the class in question are so poor.

Using status effects as a main source of damage in PvP is both interesting and risky; and really only works if the player is running the Signet mythic, which, anyone else can slot too. This leaves a build like that open to quite a lot in PvP despite having some descent damage potential but is far from OP.

My argument is that sorc has an easy time proccing Static Reverbation passive. I'm sorry to say that literally everything you are talking about is irrelevant to the topic...

I'll put it in simple terms to be better understood. We dont consider Wild Adaptation weak because warden can maintain at most chilled and maybe hemorrhaging with its base class skills. We consider it strong because with elemental susceptibility, blood for blood and various other sets and skills warden is able to reach and maintain a respectable number of status effects.

Obviously we dont treat class masteries in a vacuum with only the class skills. That would be, absurd, ill put a stop to this nonsense that non class skills has to be disregarded while considering class masteries. I will also ask you to reconsider your bias on sorc, it seems to be clouding your judgment.

And what myself and others are telling you is that Sorcs don’t have as easy of a time proccing the passive as you seem to think.

Remember, Static doesn’t just proc per instance of damage, it procs per instance of damage within the 0.3s timeframe. So if a Sorc tosses Crushing Shock and deals 3 instances of damage all at once, then that counts as “one” for the purposes of Static because all 3 occurred at the same time and the passive has the 0.3s cooldown, so effectively, 2 out of the 3 instances don’t contribute to the passive.

Nobody is saying that you consider Mastery passives in a vacuum, what I’m saying is that you have to consider the current state of Sorc skills as they are now in the context of how much strength these passives should or should not have. Plus, Sorcs pay a penalty for having to slot world skills over their class skills in that they take a hit to their output in doing so which goes toward being able to proc Static in the first place.

When I talk about Sorcs using skills outside of their class it is relevant because Sorcs have no reliable spammable burst. Just about every class has at least one skill that’s a reliable heavy burst spam.

When you consider that Static only reliably procs after the targets health gets below a certain point you can see where this raises a problem for Sorcs in PvP, they need burst and they don’t have it and world skills only partially deliver on this.

In PvP, with Sorc having no heavy bursts and target players having strong self healing available, getting a target down to a low enough health for Static to do any consistent numbers isn’t as easy as you’re saying. Out of, let’s say, 5 or 6 instances of damage per GCD Static might proc once, and that’s only once their health hit gets lowered.

If Sorcs had a class skill like Merciless that scaled really high and could thereby chunk a players health in one burst and then allow Static to kick in and help the Sorc keep the targets health lower and keep applying the passive, then maybe you’d have a point but that’s not the case and no world skill is that strong either.

For comparison, Burning Light, for example, will proc FAR more consistently over the course of combat and do more damage than Static will since it can apply persistently, not just when targets are lower health.

Sorcs cannot realistically proc Static more than once per second, even though the passive cooldown is only 0.3s because Sorcs don’t have access to any skills that apply damage in fractional increments. Dealing multiple instances of damage all at the same time does not count each instance toward the passive.

Further, you have the health barrier to consider so the realistic amount of proc that can happen is far less than you’re thinking and testing shows that.

Even at relatively high health treshold like 85% hp 5 instances of damage with 20% proc chance each isnt a low proc rate and its basically a guarantee at even lower health tresholds.

But as you say if ''Sorcs cannot realistically proc Static more than once per second, even though the passive cooldown is only 0.3s because Sorcs don’t have access to any skills that apply damage in fractional increments. Dealing multiple instances of damage all at the same time does not count each instance toward the passive. '' than you wouldnt mind if the passive was adjusted to proc only once per second with battle spirit active so i have no idea why you are trying to argue with me when you agree with me.

Btw the skill you are looking for is BA ...

That’s not how this passive works.

If one deals 5 simultaneous instances of damage to a target they do not get a 20% chance EACH to proc. All 5 would constitute one chance and against a target that has 85% health that would be one 20% chance (5% base plus 15%, 1% for each missing percent of target health).

In order to get 5 chances to apply Static a Sorc would need to apply damage 5 separate times (not just 5 instances) which would mean 5 GCD or 5 seconds. Which takes me back to my original point that over 5 to 6 applications of damage (aka 5 or 6 seconds) this passive would likely proc once.

That’s nowhere near a guarantee proc chance. Plus, the damage doesn’t scale that awful high either, not given how limited the proc chance is.

Further, it’s only the BASE chance that’s 5%, it’s not 5% per missing health. It’s 5% plus 1% per missing health.

There is zero scenario where this passive has a 55%chance to apply damage against a target that has 90% health; that’s just factually wrong and it seems people might be confused as to how this passive actually works.

Now, yes; BA does apply at 0.3 increments, however, that’s the only available skill that aligns with the adjusted cooldown of Static and it’s not readily spammable, requiring a charge and it doesn’t scale anywhere near the damage of, say, Merciless. It’s not a burst and a full charge takes 1.3 seconds to fully execute, which, is why in PvP it’s not a commonly used skill. It’s just too slow and doesn’t deal enough damage in PvP to really be viable. So, again, on paper or just looking at tool tip, yes, one might think BA is a good skill to synergize with Static in PvP but the problem is neither scale to any strong damage value and none align with the strong burst damage PvP demands so there’s not really a good use case for the combo.

I PvP every day and I’ve rarely ever seen BA and I can understand why. It’s just not a good skill and I don’t think anyone is going to slot it just to try and proc Static. BA actually adds longer pacing potential to Static due to the charge full charge up factor so if anything BA holds this passive back even more.

Of course you can proc it more than once with a single skill, no its not hard and no it doesnt take a single gcd per proc.

Here is a single BA proccing it 3 times

Here is a single RS doing the same

Here is me proccing it 4 times a second with nothing but a la and a skill. Keep in mind that proccing it 4 times a sec should be hard because of the 0.3 sec cd but again, no it isnt because nobody deals all their damage in 0.3 sec intervals anyway, trying to fit all your damage in that little time bubble would actually be harder than not proccing it multiple times.

So yes i agree with you, proccing this passive more than once a second shouldnt be a thing with battle spirit active and i really hope Zos takes notice and adjusts it accordingly ...

You’re not proccing it 3 or 4 times per second, you’re proccing it 3 or 4 times per skill.

In the case of BA, yes, that is the only skill where 3 out of the 4 procs can occur within one second, the 4th would spill into the following second. But there’s a caveat here with BA in that in order to do this you have to have at least 3 or 4 charges, otherwise one cannot do this. BA isn’t a spammable skill so it’s not accurate to say that a Sorc could just use this skill as a means to excessively proc the passive in PvP.

Rapid Strikes takes more than a second to complete and more than 0.3 per strike to deliver so, yes, while it can proc multiple occurrences of the passive, it’s not doing so in less than a second it’s doing so per application which goes to pacing.

Lastly, using the skills on a low health target dummy isn’t reflective of actual PvP combat because you can whittle the health down and ensure a high proc chance which ignores the entire duration of wearing the health down, when the passive wasn’t proccing.

Get into a duel or any PvP venue and we won’t see these same results so when I say testing doesn’t show what your complaint is about that’s what I mean. Dummy parsing only shows that multiple instances of the passive can occur, which we all know, what it doesn’t show is the multiple instances happening collectively in under one second or in a PvP situation.

The only skill that can proc in less than a second is BA but for the charge up pacing reasons I mentioned before it’s not a reliable source of consistent proc which means it’s definitely not broken or in need of a nerf.

Just a friendly query. Are you certain that Bound Armaments is rarely used and that it's bad? Whenever I see any video or stream played as Sorc, they will have Bound Armaments and use it all the time. I dislike that skill, because it does not synergize with Overload centric statregies, but it seems to deal more damage for me than Crystal Fragments with all its Sundered procs.

It’s bad in the sense that other skills exist that out perform it.

It’s hard to make a solid case for BA when Merciless provides the same exact buffs, scales to higher damage, has a potential heal component, and performs its function faster.

Granted Merciless costs Mag but in real combat it’s less of a factor for a Stam build to slot a Mag sourced skill as opposed to a Mag build slotting a Stam sourced skill; especially in PvP.

NxJoeyD · May 8

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Static Reverberation

This passive was a huge problem for pvp week 1. It was in a fine state after getting adjusted to 0.5 seconds. Its now back to being too powerful with 0.3 seconds cool down and being buffed to base 5% proc rate.

Part of the problem comes from sorc being too good at being able to proc it. 5% proc base doesnt sound like much but consider that a regular status effect build can deal up to 10 instances of seperate damage per second. For example

1-Vateshran destro proc
2-Burning status effect from vateshran
3-Light attack
4-Concussion from thread of war
5-Crushing shock (frost)
6-Crushing shock (fire)
7-Crushing shock (shock)
8-Chill from crushing shock
9-Burning from crushing shock
10- Concussion from crushing shock
11-Hurricane

10+ instances of seperate damage in a single second with a 5% base proc chance at full hp, skyrocketing to a certainty at lower health thresholds. This isnt just limited to this specific scenario either, bound armamant is 4 instance of seperate damage by itself and is by itself a burst damage and the burst damage having near certainty to proc additional damage turns it from a burst to an easy execute. In fact it turns basically everything in sorcs arsenal to an execute extremely easily.

Malevolent Promise was excluded from pvp for being too war crimey, well, this passive is the actual war crime. Please consider adding a once per second clause to it with battle spirit active. Proccing an extra instance of damage every second easily makes it one of the best pure class passives in the game, simply makes it less toxic by preventing it from being oppressive in pvp.

I have to disagree here.

You’re right about being able to stack stand effects but re-read your own post. Out of the 10 sources of status application only one comes from Sorc … just one.

Nothing else on that list is Sorc Specific which means that being a Sorc doesn’t make those skills any more effective. It’s not as though Sorcs can synergize those status effects better than any other class because any and every other class can slot 9 out of those 10 abilities, it’s just that Sorcs have the passive.

To be honest the main status I see Sorcs using here is Overcharge rather than any of the elementals and that’s really leaning a bit on LA & scribing, also outside of the class skill set.

Running a status effect build can hit hard in PvP but it leaves the build open to quite a lot because in order to maximize it requires specific supporting gear and attention to their mitigation. A status-effect Sorc vs a subclassed crit meta build, for example, is going to have a run for their money because they’re going to have to keep up shields & heal in a rotation versus just spamming LA + skill weaves.

Sorcs are not in a good place. I don’t know who thinks that but this observation really is evidence of that if Sorcs are leaning on status effect output rather than their own class skills.

These passives need to hit hard and the buff makes sense, it provides for a viable means to be competitive in the scope of subclasses builds until the Sorc refresh, which is the whole point. Static at 0.3 & 5% is where it needs to be.

What does the source of the skill have to do with anything? Are you guys just trying to be funny?

Because your argument is that Sorcs are somehow better able to make use of applying status effects.

That, factually, isn’t true because 90% of the sources of applying those status effects are available to every player, they’re not Sorc specific.

This means that, no, Sorcs do not have some extra benefit when it comes to applying status effects, anyone can use Crushing Shock, anyone can run Vateshran, anyone can light attack with a Destro staff, etc.

If Sorcs had clad specific skills that were better able to apply status effects then, yes, you’d be right; Sorcs would have an easier time than other classes but that isn’t the case.

I don’t think it’s right to ask for a passive to be nerfed simply because it synergizes with world skills; especially when the class skills for the class in question are so poor.

Using status effects as a main source of damage in PvP is both interesting and risky; and really only works if the player is running the Signet mythic, which, anyone else can slot too. This leaves a build like that open to quite a lot in PvP despite having some descent damage potential but is far from OP.

My argument is that sorc has an easy time proccing Static Reverbation passive. I'm sorry to say that literally everything you are talking about is irrelevant to the topic...

I'll put it in simple terms to be better understood. We dont consider Wild Adaptation weak because warden can maintain at most chilled and maybe hemorrhaging with its base class skills. We consider it strong because with elemental susceptibility, blood for blood and various other sets and skills warden is able to reach and maintain a respectable number of status effects.

Obviously we dont treat class masteries in a vacuum with only the class skills. That would be, absurd, ill put a stop to this nonsense that non class skills has to be disregarded while considering class masteries. I will also ask you to reconsider your bias on sorc, it seems to be clouding your judgment.

And what myself and others are telling you is that Sorcs don’t have as easy of a time proccing the passive as you seem to think.

Remember, Static doesn’t just proc per instance of damage, it procs per instance of damage within the 0.3s timeframe. So if a Sorc tosses Crushing Shock and deals 3 instances of damage all at once, then that counts as “one” for the purposes of Static because all 3 occurred at the same time and the passive has the 0.3s cooldown, so effectively, 2 out of the 3 instances don’t contribute to the passive.

Nobody is saying that you consider Mastery passives in a vacuum, what I’m saying is that you have to consider the current state of Sorc skills as they are now in the context of how much strength these passives should or should not have. Plus, Sorcs pay a penalty for having to slot world skills over their class skills in that they take a hit to their output in doing so which goes toward being able to proc Static in the first place.

When I talk about Sorcs using skills outside of their class it is relevant because Sorcs have no reliable spammable burst. Just about every class has at least one skill that’s a reliable heavy burst spam.

When you consider that Static only reliably procs after the targets health gets below a certain point you can see where this raises a problem for Sorcs in PvP, they need burst and they don’t have it and world skills only partially deliver on this.

In PvP, with Sorc having no heavy bursts and target players having strong self healing available, getting a target down to a low enough health for Static to do any consistent numbers isn’t as easy as you’re saying. Out of, let’s say, 5 or 6 instances of damage per GCD Static might proc once, and that’s only once their health hit gets lowered.

If Sorcs had a class skill like Merciless that scaled really high and could thereby chunk a players health in one burst and then allow Static to kick in and help the Sorc keep the targets health lower and keep applying the passive, then maybe you’d have a point but that’s not the case and no world skill is that strong either.

For comparison, Burning Light, for example, will proc FAR more consistently over the course of combat and do more damage than Static will since it can apply persistently, not just when targets are lower health.

Sorcs cannot realistically proc Static more than once per second, even though the passive cooldown is only 0.3s because Sorcs don’t have access to any skills that apply damage in fractional increments. Dealing multiple instances of damage all at the same time does not count each instance toward the passive.

Further, you have the health barrier to consider so the realistic amount of proc that can happen is far less than you’re thinking and testing shows that.

Even at relatively high health treshold like 85% hp 5 instances of damage with 20% proc chance each isnt a low proc rate and its basically a guarantee at even lower health tresholds.

But as you say if ''Sorcs cannot realistically proc Static more than once per second, even though the passive cooldown is only 0.3s because Sorcs don’t have access to any skills that apply damage in fractional increments. Dealing multiple instances of damage all at the same time does not count each instance toward the passive. '' than you wouldnt mind if the passive was adjusted to proc only once per second with battle spirit active so i have no idea why you are trying to argue with me when you agree with me.

Btw the skill you are looking for is BA ...

That’s not how this passive works.

If one deals 5 simultaneous instances of damage to a target they do not get a 20% chance EACH to proc. All 5 would constitute one chance and against a target that has 85% health that would be one 20% chance (5% base plus 15%, 1% for each missing percent of target health).

In order to get 5 chances to apply Static a Sorc would need to apply damage 5 separate times (not just 5 instances) which would mean 5 GCD or 5 seconds. Which takes me back to my original point that over 5 to 6 applications of damage (aka 5 or 6 seconds) this passive would likely proc once.

That’s nowhere near a guarantee proc chance. Plus, the damage doesn’t scale that awful high either, not given how limited the proc chance is.

Further, it’s only the BASE chance that’s 5%, it’s not 5% per missing health. It’s 5% plus 1% per missing health.

There is zero scenario where this passive has a 55%chance to apply damage against a target that has 90% health; that’s just factually wrong and it seems people might be confused as to how this passive actually works.

Now, yes; BA does apply at 0.3 increments, however, that’s the only available skill that aligns with the adjusted cooldown of Static and it’s not readily spammable, requiring a charge and it doesn’t scale anywhere near the damage of, say, Merciless. It’s not a burst and a full charge takes 1.3 seconds to fully execute, which, is why in PvP it’s not a commonly used skill. It’s just too slow and doesn’t deal enough damage in PvP to really be viable. So, again, on paper or just looking at tool tip, yes, one might think BA is a good skill to synergize with Static in PvP but the problem is neither scale to any strong damage value and none align with the strong burst damage PvP demands so there’s not really a good use case for the combo.

I PvP every day and I’ve rarely ever seen BA and I can understand why. It’s just not a good skill and I don’t think anyone is going to slot it just to try and proc Static. BA actually adds longer pacing potential to Static due to the charge full charge up factor so if anything BA holds this passive back even more.

Of course you can proc it more than once with a single skill, no its not hard and no it doesnt take a single gcd per proc.

Here is a single BA proccing it 3 times

Here is a single RS doing the same

Here is me proccing it 4 times a second with nothing but a la and a skill. Keep in mind that proccing it 4 times a sec should be hard because of the 0.3 sec cd but again, no it isnt because nobody deals all their damage in 0.3 sec intervals anyway, trying to fit all your damage in that little time bubble would actually be harder than not proccing it multiple times.

So yes i agree with you, proccing this passive more than once a second shouldnt be a thing with battle spirit active and i really hope Zos takes notice and adjusts it accordingly ...

You’re not proccing it 3 or 4 times per second, you’re proccing it 3 or 4 times per skill.

In the case of BA, yes, that is the only skill where 3 out of the 4 procs can occur within one second, the 4th would spill into the following second. But there’s a caveat here with BA in that in order to do this you have to have at least 3 or 4 charges, otherwise one cannot do this. BA isn’t a spammable skill so it’s not accurate to say that a Sorc could just use this skill as a means to excessively proc the passive in PvP.

Rapid Strikes takes more than a second to complete and more than 0.3 per strike to deliver so, yes, while it can proc multiple occurrences of the passive, it’s not doing so in less than a second it’s doing so per application which goes to pacing.

Lastly, using the skills on a low health target dummy isn’t reflective of actual PvP combat because you can whittle the health down and ensure a high proc chance which ignores the entire duration of wearing the health down, when the passive wasn’t proccing.

Get into a duel or any PvP venue and we won’t see these same results so when I say testing doesn’t show what your complaint is about that’s what I mean. Dummy parsing only shows that multiple instances of the passive can occur, which we all know, what it doesn’t show is the multiple instances happening collectively in under one second or in a PvP situation.

The only skill that can proc in less than a second is BA but for the charge up pacing reasons I mentioned before it’s not a reliable source of consistent proc which means it’s definitely not broken or in need of a nerf.

You were saying that it literally cant be done so i posted an example where it clearly is done, can we stop moving goalposts?

True, it showed that the passive can be procced multiple times in one second; but your call for a nerf made it sound like it was “too easy to do” (your words), when in truth only one skill can do it and it’s a skill that’s not popular to slot.

What you showed is also exactly what I’ve been saying in that there’s no basis to justify any nerf to this passive.

In fact, if we look at the dummy parse tests you rigged up, we can see the DPS values are pretty low, and that’s with crit being factored in. Using BA, the only skill that can proc multiple in under one second only yielded a measly 700 DPS; that’s the kind of values that should have a nerf?

A call to nerf Static is based on all sizzle and no steak; there’s no facts here that show that this passive is a consistent over performer. The target health chance reduces the skills effectiveness to mid health and below, the damage scaling is “mid” at best, and only one skill has any chance of proccing multiple stacks per second and that skill is poor; every other skill that can proc stacks will take more than one second and gets balanced by combat pacing.

MashmalloMan · May 8

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Exposing tedious mathematical arguments doesn't prove that Reverberation's current state is acceptable. In fact, it only makes people dislike Sorc and Reverberation more. Nobody likes having to calculate probabilities in the tense atmosphere of PvP. Reverberation either needs to be nerfed to a 5-second cooldown or have its damage nerfed by 50%, otherwise there's absolutely no reason to accept the current version of Reverberation into the live server.

Can NB mains who have absolutely zero clue about sorcerer stop commenting on sorcerers trying to get them deleted from the game.

It's been 10+ years already, enough is enough, stick to your own class and let others have a chance to have fun playing their class.

What does this have to do with "Nightblade players"? Don't "Nightblade players" have the right to comment on balance? Or do you not want the game to be balanced so you can continue to dominate with Sorc?

Even more absurd is that some people actually think Pressure Points are better than Expert Mage. How can 2.5% Critical Chance be better than 108 Weapon Damage? Don't forget that in PvP, all experienced players have very high Critical Resistance; 2.5% Critical Chance is practically useless! Even in PvE, 108 Weapon Damage is better because Sorc can recover more health using Surge and Blood Magic!

You're playing the wrong game man. The past year with subclassing NB's Assassination line has dominated the meta including other crit related skill lines to stack Crit Damage to ridiculous levels with delayed burst.

Every build needs a Major Resolve skill, so you have 7 options, the most obvious come down to Restoring Light and Storm Calling. Rune Focus is great, but if you don't need the sustain and prefer offense, Storm Calling is much more advantageous due to having well balanced passives and the best mobility skill in the game. Just so happens that during this crit meta, players are picking up Assassination and Animal Companions, both of which have Crit Damage, and you also need a Major Brutality/Sustain skill, to which Betty works well for. This pushes out the great Restoring Light line in favour of Storm Calling.

No one is picking up Storm Calling strictly for their 108 w/s damage, and not a single person is touching Dark Magic and Daedric Summoning the same way no one is touching Shadow or Siphoning. So what exactly is your point? Assassination has some of, if not the best passives and abilities in the game, why would you even begin to compare these in a vaccum like that?

Is it PVE? Crit chance is also meta there, Assassination, and Herald of the Tome are the top picks on every build, but it's hard to take you seriously when you're the same person that said Sorc has the best cleave in the game because of Empower + Overload. We get it, you hate Sorc, cool. News flash, both NB and Sorc have similar problems of being prejudiced against for dealing too much single target DPS while ignoring the fact that they have more complex rotations, reliant on weaving, and no cleave. We're in the same boat.

This whole discussion started based on the notion that proc sets and status effects proc Static Reverb which is completely false. No one here is trying to knock NB down, in fact many of us commented on how underpowered the Masteries were.

This is a thread about class mastery.

Technically also Scribing class mastery as well (see Warden Charm): the base class. Not just a stat-stick subclass skill-line.

Just because one line in combination with another set of sublclasses lines doesn't make pureclass NB somehow cream of the crop.

Just like how you not that even with the games best mobility+stun in the game, Stormcalling is a great line as well.

Personally speaking, IMO a 1-slot mobility/stun is much more versatile than the Assassination skill-line when pureclassing. (especially in a skill-line that can use Overload LA into Streak into Overload LA)

I totally agree, but you're coming into a conversation that is like 2 pages deep and entirely missed the point of my comment.

Wasn't really about subclassing performance or pitting NB against Sorc, I didn't do that, I don't care about that, it's the person I commented to that is trying to pit them against each other when both classes have the same problems right now.

They're meant as single target machines, but any time their damage gets too high, ZOS lowers them, which would be fine if there was compensation to their cleave, but there isn't, they both remain among the worst aoe classes in the game. Both classes have 1 really popular line as I brought up, and 2 nearly dead lines.

It's become increasingly obvious that Pink is out to get Sorc for whatever reason with comments like "Empower + Overload and Oakensoul Sorc is the best cleave PVE DPS in the game". In what universe? This same person is creating false comparisons like Sorc's 108 w/s damage vs NB's 6% mag/stam despite both classes having more obvious comparisons I brought up.

Ever heard the saying.. "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."?

Knocking down other classes with false claims and strawman arguments is not how you get your own class buffed. What's funny is the same Sorc mains in this conversation, including myself, have commented that NB's need buffs to their Mastery's, but we find ourselves debating with these obvious NB trolls about Static Reverb NOT proccing from Status Effects or Proc Sets... or new claims like "Empower + Overload and Shattering Spine are the best cleave in the game". Come on.

MashmalloMan · May 8

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Nightblade vs. Sorcerer beef has been going on since 2014 lol. Except now nobody complains about Shields or Cloak, its all about math and damage formulas barf.

Funny and true, but it feels really one sided if you ask me. I don't know why I even bother trying to fight for NB buffs when the same players that would benefit from it the most will never be happy and selfishly try to knock down every other class except their own. I mean come on, what even is this:

Pinktraining wrote: »

Sorc should also be subject to a "battle spirit" mechanic, reducing the base chance of Static Reverberation in PvP to -10%!

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Every single Sorc passive should be HALVED in PvP!

Conservation of Energy - reduce effectiveness in PvP by HALF!

Font of Power - reduce spell dmg boost in PvP by HALF!

Calculated Defense - reduce shield size in PvP by HALF!

Sphere of Influence - reduce recovery in PvP by HALF!

And then on top of that reduce by 55% by battle spirit!

It's finally time to take care of this broken class in PvP!

acanca · May 8

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Nightblade vs. Sorcerer beef has been going on since 2014 lol. Except now nobody complains about Shields or Cloak, its all about math and damage formulas barf.

Funny and true, but it feels really one sided if you ask me. I don't know why I even bother trying to fight for NB buffs when the same players that would benefit from it the most will never be happy and selfishly try to knock down every other class except their own. I mean come on, what even is this:

Pinktraining wrote: »

Sorc should also be subject to a "battle spirit" mechanic, reducing the base chance of Static Reverberation in PvP to -10%!

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Every single Sorc passive should be HALVED in PvP!

Conservation of Energy - reduce effectiveness in PvP by HALF!

Font of Power - reduce spell dmg boost in PvP by HALF!

Calculated Defense - reduce shield size in PvP by HALF!

Sphere of Influence - reduce recovery in PvP by HALF!

And then on top of that reduce by 55% by battle spirit!

It's finally time to take care of this broken class in PvP!

i thought those were sarcastic tbh, guess not.

Sorc masteries for sure needs a toning down though, there isnt a single class mastery as impactful as CoE for pvp among any of the class masteries nor half as desirable and it synergizes way too well with Font for too much value. I dont want 90% of my time to be spent on sorc and dk with the rest on a pressure build with b4b on warden. Sure seems like thats how its gonna go though, they ought to at least cut the healing on CoE in half at this point for the health of the game ...

I wanna play on all classes, i want a meta where you can take necro for a spin and dont feel like you are torturing yourself. And yeah i wanna use corpseburster in pvp so i hope Zos changes their mind on not letting players test stuff in public Test server

NxJoeyD · May 8

acanca wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Nightblade vs. Sorcerer beef has been going on since 2014 lol. Except now nobody complains about Shields or Cloak, its all about math and damage formulas barf.

Funny and true, but it feels really one sided if you ask me. I don't know why I even bother trying to fight for NB buffs when the same players that would benefit from it the most will never be happy and selfishly try to knock down every other class except their own. I mean come on, what even is this:

Pinktraining wrote: »

Sorc should also be subject to a "battle spirit" mechanic, reducing the base chance of Static Reverberation in PvP to -10%!

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Every single Sorc passive should be HALVED in PvP!

Conservation of Energy - reduce effectiveness in PvP by HALF!

Font of Power - reduce spell dmg boost in PvP by HALF!

Calculated Defense - reduce shield size in PvP by HALF!

Sphere of Influence - reduce recovery in PvP by HALF!

And then on top of that reduce by 55% by battle spirit!

It's finally time to take care of this broken class in PvP!

i thought those were sarcastic tbh, guess not.

Sorc masteries for sure needs a toning down though, there isnt a single class mastery as impactful as CoE for pvp among any of the class masteries nor half as desirable and it synergizes way too well with Font for too much value. I dont want 90% of my time to be spent on sorc and dk with the rest on a pressure build with b4b on warden. Sure seems like thats how its gonna go though, they ought to at least cut the healing on CoE in half at this point for the health of the game ...

I wanna play on all classes, i want a meta where you can take necro for a spin and dont feel like you are torturing yourself. And yeah i wanna use corpseburster in pvp so i hope Zos changes their mind on not letting players test stuff in public Test server

CoE is a strong sustain passive but it’s only delivering on sustain, it doesn’t deliver any power to Sorcs.

Font, IMO, is one of the stronger ones but it requires a “Sorcerer” ability to proc. Sorc doesn’t have a reliable spammable and the (on average) 20% bump to W/S is scaling off base stats, it’s not stacking with many of the other bumps to W/S so while it is strong it’s not OP strong in the context of current power creep, especially in PvP.

On paper these passives look strong but there’s very real tradeoffs here to using them.

We can’t advocate for nerfs to Sorc passives just to make things more playable for other classes. The point with Sorc passives is to elevate Sorc to Subclass & DK levels of power. While I think they definitely fall short on the power delivery at least the sustain gives a Sorc more opportunity to use what they do have.

If you want to play certain classes a certain way then the right thing to do is advocate for their passives to be stronger or deliver more synergy with the class right now; not chuck Sorcs.

acanca · May 8

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Nightblade vs. Sorcerer beef has been going on since 2014 lol. Except now nobody complains about Shields or Cloak, its all about math and damage formulas barf.

Funny and true, but it feels really one sided if you ask me. I don't know why I even bother trying to fight for NB buffs when the same players that would benefit from it the most will never be happy and selfishly try to knock down every other class except their own. I mean come on, what even is this:

Pinktraining wrote: »

Sorc should also be subject to a "battle spirit" mechanic, reducing the base chance of Static Reverberation in PvP to -10%!

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Every single Sorc passive should be HALVED in PvP!

Conservation of Energy - reduce effectiveness in PvP by HALF!

Font of Power - reduce spell dmg boost in PvP by HALF!

Calculated Defense - reduce shield size in PvP by HALF!

Sphere of Influence - reduce recovery in PvP by HALF!

And then on top of that reduce by 55% by battle spirit!

It's finally time to take care of this broken class in PvP!

i thought those were sarcastic tbh, guess not.

Sorc masteries for sure needs a toning down though, there isnt a single class mastery as impactful as CoE for pvp among any of the class masteries nor half as desirable and it synergizes way too well with Font for too much value. I dont want 90% of my time to be spent on sorc and dk with the rest on a pressure build with b4b on warden. Sure seems like thats how its gonna go though, they ought to at least cut the healing on CoE in half at this point for the health of the game ...

I wanna play on all classes, i want a meta where you can take necro for a spin and dont feel like you are torturing yourself. And yeah i wanna use corpseburster in pvp so i hope Zos changes their mind on not letting players test stuff in public Test server

CoE is a strong sustain passive but it’s only delivering on sustain, it doesn’t deliver any power to Sorcs.

Font, IMO, is one of the stronger ones but it requires a “Sorcerer” ability to proc. Sorc doesn’t have a reliable spammable and the (on average) 20% bump to W/S is scaling off base stats, it’s not stacking with many of the other bumps to W/S so while it is strong it’s not OP strong in the context of current power creep, especially in PvP.

On paper these passives look strong but there’s very real tradeoffs here to using them.

We can’t advocate for nerfs to Sorc passives just to make things more playable for other classes. The point with Sorc passives is to elevate Sorc to Subclass & DK levels of power. While I think they definitely fall short on the power delivery at least the sustain gives a Sorc more opportunity to use what they do have.

If you want to play certain classes a certain way then the right thing to do is advocate for their passives to be stronger or deliver more synergy with the class right now; not chuck Sorcs.

You are grasping at straws now, keeping font up is hard? really? When was the last time you had to even worry about keeping it active? And CoE is only about sustain? What do you mean only sustain, its the strongest heal over time in the game by far and what do you mean ''only'' sustain like the amount of sustain we are getting is somehow unimportant, this passive is so good that if you put all the sustain passives of other classes together im not sure if they would top them thats how much sustain we are getting.

Obviously we can and should adjust the overperforming classes so that they arent the overwhelmingly most effective way to play. I dont want you to misunderstand, im not advocating for a sorc nerf, im advocating for a diverse meta. Sorc is one of my favorite classes, probably one of my most played classes, but again, i want to be able to play arcanist, templar, necro and not feel like im gimping myself. Currently sorc and dk are just that ahead and we all know it.

If class masteries goes live like they are curerntly, we'll be sick of the game in one month tops.

MashmalloMan · May 8

acanca wrote: »

Of course you can proc it more than once with a single skill, no its not hard and no it doesnt take a single gcd per proc.

Here is a single BA proccing it 3 times

Here is a single RS doing the same

Here is me proccing it 4 times a second with nothing but a la and a skill. Keep in mind that proccing it 4 times a sec should be hard because of the 0.3 sec cd but again, no it isnt because nobody deals all their damage in 0.3 sec intervals anyway, trying to fit all your damage in that little time bubble would actually be harder than not proccing it multiple times.

So yes i agree with you, proccing this passive more than once a second shouldnt be a thing with battle spirit active and i really hope Zos takes notice and adjusts it accordingly ...

I don't really know what their argument was suppose to be because you can clearly proc it multiple times with Bound Armaments and Rapid Strikes, that was never up for discussion. Proving their incorrect point wrong, doesn't make your point right.

Also your 3rd screenshot doesn't even make sense mathematically. The GCD = 1s, so why are you proccing Static 4 times (1.2s)? Did you purposely delay a light attack by 0.3s just to show it can be procced 4 times?

This is what should actually happen with 100% chance, you'll notice the 1st tick of Rapid Strike overlaps the Light Attack, and the 3rd hit overlaps the 2nd hit. 5 instances, 3 procs.

You didn't reply to my comment here debunking some of your claims, so I'll reiterate.

Your original point was Sorc of all the classes has too many damage instances, allowing them to abuse the Mastery. In your example, you used status effects and proc sets for a total of 11 damage instances, 1 of which only ticks every 2s. Proc's don't proc procs, so your example was actually only 4~4.5. Force Pulse ticks all at once so you wouldn't even be able to proc it multiple times a second like a better example; Bound Armaments or Rapid Strikes.

You then said it's basically guaranteed at 90% HP because of the base 5% chance and 5~6 instances. I provided many examples of the actual probability, I even used the best case scenario with a Stam Sorc on Flurry, Blade Cloak, Hurricane, Rending Slashes, and Weaving for a total average of 6 and it still was only a 62% probability at 90% to proc even ONCE.

I went 1 step further showing the tooltip on Static that you're apparently afraid of, is not only weaker than a status effect, it can't be procced infinite times a second or gain a 2~3x multiplier from Signet or Class Passives. If you feel so strongly about Static Reverb, where is your passion for nerfing Status Effects to a 1s CD in PVP?

Again, I can see the other Masteries being adjusted because they're very powerful and versatile, but attempting to nerf Static when it's already not the best option in PVP makes no sense to me. I can't understand this rationale that nerfing 1/5 Mastery's that is already useless for 1/7 classes is somehow going to make NB any better. Maybe tell ZOS why NB or whatever class your playing needs buffs to their Mastery's, what exactly are they to make of this back and forth, this is a senseless discussion started based on an incorrect assumption and perpetuated by salty NB's with opinions like "Empower + Overload" is OP.

acanca · May 8

MashmalloMan wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Of course you can proc it more than once with a single skill, no its not hard and no it doesnt take a single gcd per proc.

Here is a single BA proccing it 3 times

Here is a single RS doing the same

Here is me proccing it 4 times a second with nothing but a la and a skill. Keep in mind that proccing it 4 times a sec should be hard because of the 0.3 sec cd but again, no it isnt because nobody deals all their damage in 0.3 sec intervals anyway, trying to fit all your damage in that little time bubble would actually be harder than not proccing it multiple times.

So yes i agree with you, proccing this passive more than once a second shouldnt be a thing with battle spirit active and i really hope Zos takes notice and adjusts it accordingly ...

I don't really know what their argument was suppose to be because you can clearly proc it multiple times with Bound Armaments and Rapid Strikes, that was never up for discussion. Proving their incorrect point wrong, doesn't make your point right.

Also your 3rd screenshot doesn't even make sense mathematically. The GCD = 1s, so why are you proccing Static 4 times (1.2s)? Did you purposely delay a light attack by 0.3s just to show it can be procced 4 times?

This is what should actually happen with 100% chance, you'll notice the 1st tick of Rapid Strike overlaps the Light Attack, and the 3rd hit overlaps the 2nd hit. 5 instances, 3 procs.

You didn't reply to my comment here debunking some of your claims, so I'll reiterate.

Your original point was Sorc of all the classes has too many damage instances, allowing them to abuse the Mastery. In your example, you used status effects and proc sets for a total of 11 damage instances, 1 of which only ticks every 2s. Proc's don't proc procs, so your example was actually only 4~4.5. Force Pulse ticks all at once so you wouldn't even be able to proc it multiple times a second like a better example; Bound Armaments or Rapid Strikes.

You then said it's basically guaranteed at 90% HP because of the base 5% chance and 5~6 instances. I provided many examples of the actual probability, I even used the best case scenario with a Stam Sorc on Flurry, Blade Cloak, Hurricane, Rending Slashes, and Weaving for a total average of 6 and it still was only a 62% probability at 90% to proc even ONCE.

I went 1 step further showing the tooltip on Static that you're apparently afraid of, is not only weaker than a status effect, it can't be procced infinite times a second or gain a 2~3x multiplier from Signet or Class Passives. If you feel so strongly about Static Reverb in PVP, where is your passion for nerfing Status Effects to a 1s CD in PVP?

Again, I can see the other Masteries being adjusted because they're very powerful and versatile, but attempting to nerf Static when it's already not the best option in PVP makes no sense to me.

Dunno maybe because la travels fast and ba travels slow squeezing it over 1.2 sec mark, i can try to get a vid if you want.

And again, this passive is supposed to be good at low health thresholds and we are talking about 62% (granted inflated) probability of it proccing at 90% hp, its obviously way better at lower health tresholds.

People are already ranting about one shot gank builds from live server, what do you think is going to happen with this passive, is it going to make for a healthy game play or will it just help sorc secure a kill way easier than normal because people combined it with Font and didnt care about their survivability in the first place. I agree with you that sorcs other passives are way stronger and needs adjustment, but i dont think this passive is healthy for the game at all. At least status effects (except poisoned), dont act as an execute.

And again, i agree that i would just take the guaranteed damage with Font as well but thats mainly because i tend to a more brawler play style, i dont think this passive is bad at all, turning a half health BA into an execute by itself imo makes it problematic. I also know your view on BA, i disagree, BA is a good skill imo.

Savagejack · May 8

Someone mentioned that Font uptime is based on using a Sorcerer ability. I thought Font of Power was just scaling weapon damage increased by max stam/mag, no? Hopefully this passive can reach the WD cap on master dw. I always liked that set in pvp.

MashmalloMan · May 8

acanca wrote: »

Dunno maybe because la travels fast and ba travels slow squeezing it over 1.2 sec mark, i can try to get a vid if you want.

The screenshot is using Rapid Strikes, you were using a melee weapon in melee range. Melee instant attacks land instantly unlike projectiles that have a minimum travel time. I don't need a recording because that's just how time works and it's besides the point. You can't proc something 4 times within 0.8s if there is a 0.3s cooldown, so I can only assume there was some type of delay.

acanca wrote: »

People are already ranting about one shot gank builds from live server, what do you think is going to happen with this passive, is it going to make for a healthy game play or will it just help sorc secure a kill way easier than normal because people combined it with Font and didnt care about their survivability in the first place. I agree with you that sorcs other passives are way stronger and needs adjustment, but i dont think this passive is healthy for the game at all. At least status effects (except poisoned), dont act as an execute.

I swear it's like you didn't read anything I wrote, you're not going to 1 shot anyone with this by its very definition. It can't proc more than 3 times a second. People are complaining about Signet + Status Effects + Force Pulse + Asylum Destro which procs 3~7 status efects for 2-3x the damage as Static, ALL at the same time, that complaint is not comparable in the slightest. The set needs a massive nerf. Base status effects and by extension Static are not an issue.

I do not doubt casuals will complain about it despite it being meh because it ticks frequently for very little, Death Recaps will show "10,000 damage x 45" and they'll misunderstand what really killed them. You're complaining about it and it seems you haven't even fought a player using it and the type of build it requires vs whats possible.

acanca wrote: »

And again, this passive is supposed to be good at low health thresholds and we are talking about 62% (granted inflated) probability of it proccing at 90% hp, its obviously way better at lower health tresholds.

It is good at low health, the problem is it's bad at high health and PVP takes place at or around the 70~100% zone before you're asking to be deleted. 1 proc a second is only 20% stronger than Burning Light, and your suggestion is to make it like that with a % chance... for a Mastery? We're talking about bonuses that give 1500 w/s damage vs 258, 5x more valuable on average, and your suggestion is to make it nearly equal to Burning Light.. Do you not see how that makes no sense?

acanca wrote: »

..at least status effects don't act as an execute..

How did you come to this concluson?

In a build where you could get a tooltip of 2000 on Static, you would also have 2140 Burning (x3), 2356 for Chill, and 2356 for Concuss.. but these 3 among the other 5 can be multiplied by 85% on Signet, 40% from Warden, 15% from Arcanist, 40% from Arcanist set, 30~50% from DK, etc, etc. There is no Static dedicated multiplier. They have no CD, so a player abusing the obvious mechanics right now can do this 3~7 times with Asylum D Staff, yet before Signet, it was NEVER a problem, so why is a it problem now?

But your right.. status effects don't act as an execute because they're just fantastic all the time, they don't need low health.

acanca wrote: »

And again, i agree that i would just take the guaranteed damage with Font as well but thats mainly because i tend to a more brawler play style, i dont think this passive is bad at all, turning a half health BA into an execute by itself imo makes it problematic. I also know your view on BA, i disagree, BA is a good skill imo.

Never said it was bad, I said it's not worth the opportunity/cost, what your suggestion is would absolutely murder it from any sort of viability however small I may see it as.

Whatever, not gonna change your mind, just saying if you want your class improved, maybe avoid burning bridges, and putting out false information. Focus on improving your own class. Either way, you won't catch me using this Mastery in its current state beyond role play.

Dracane · May 8

MashmalloMan wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Dunno maybe because la travels fast and ba travels slow squeezing it over 1.2 sec mark, i can try to get a vid if you want.

The screenshot is using Rapid Strikes, you were using a melee weapon in melee range. Melee instant attacks land instantly unlike projectiles that have a minimum travel time. I don't need a recording because that's just how time works and it's besides the point. You can't proc something 4 times within 0.8s if there is a 0.3s cooldown, so I can only assume there was some type of delay.

acanca wrote: »

People are already ranting about one shot gank builds from live server, what do you think is going to happen with this passive, is it going to make for a healthy game play or will it just help sorc secure a kill way easier than normal because people combined it with Font and didnt care about their survivability in the first place. I agree with you that sorcs other passives are way stronger and needs adjustment, but i dont think this passive is healthy for the game at all. At least status effects (except poisoned), dont act as an execute.

I swear it's like you didn't read anything I wrote, you're not going to 1 shot anyone with this by its very definition. It can't proc more than 3 times a second. People are complaining about Signet + Status Effects + Force Pulse + Asylum Destro which procs 3~7 status efects for 2-3x the damage as Static, ALL at the same time, that complaint is not comparable in the slightest. The set needs a massive nerf. Base status effects and by extension Static are not an issue.

I do not doubt casuals will complain about it despite it being meh because it ticks frequently for very little, Death Recaps will show "10,000 damage x 45" and they'll misunderstand what really killed them. You're complaining about it and it seems you haven't even fought a player using it and the type of build it requires vs whats possible.

acanca wrote: »

And again, this passive is supposed to be good at low health thresholds and we are talking about 62% (granted inflated) probability of it proccing at 90% hp, its obviously way better at lower health tresholds.

It is good at low health, the problem is it's bad at high health and PVP takes place at or around the 70~100% zone before you're asking to be deleted. 1 proc a second is only 20% stronger than Burning Light, and your suggestion is to make it like that with a % chance... for a Mastery? We're talking about bonuses that give 1500 w/s damage vs 258, 5x more valuable on average, and your suggestion is to make it nearly equal to Burning Light.. Do you not see how that makes no sense?

acanca wrote: »

..at least status effects don't act as an execute..

How did you come to this concluson?

In a build where you could get a tooltip of 2000 on Static, you would also have 2140 Burning (x3), 2356 for Chill, and 2356 for Concuss.. but these 3 among the other 5 can be multiplied by 85% on Signet, 40% from Warden, 15% from Arcanist, 40% from Arcanist set, 30~50% from DK, etc, etc. There is no Static dedicated multiplier. They have no CD, so a player abusing the obvious mechanics right now can do this 3~7 times with Asylum D Staff, yet before Signet, it was NEVER a problem, so why is a it problem now?

But your right.. status effects don't act as an execute because they're just fantastic all the time, they don't need low health.

acanca wrote: »

And again, i agree that i would just take the guaranteed damage with Font as well but thats mainly because i tend to a more brawler play style, i dont think this passive is bad at all, turning a half health BA into an execute by itself imo makes it problematic. I also know your view on BA, i disagree, BA is a good skill imo.

Never said it was bad, I said it's not worth the opportunity/cost, what your suggestion is would absolutely murder it from any sort of viability however small I may see it as.

Whatever, not gonna change your mind, just saying if you want your class improved, maybe avoid burning bridges, and putting out false information. Focus on improving your own class. Either way, you won't catch me using this Mastery in its current state beyond role play.

Not to be mean or confrontational, but it has to be said that the one you argue with has done nothing on the PTS but ask for Sorc to get nerfed, despite insisting it being their most played class. Every single post is about this, and the conclusion is ever such that no one can convince them despite the best evidence.

So truly; it is clear to me what this all aims towards. This all just some blind agenda borne from ire.

ZhuJiuyin · 3:58AM

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Exposing tedious mathematical arguments doesn't prove that Reverberation's current state is acceptable. In fact, it only makes people dislike Sorc and Reverberation more. Nobody likes having to calculate probabilities in the tense atmosphere of PvP. Reverberation either needs to be nerfed to a 5-second cooldown or have its damage nerfed by 50%, otherwise there's absolutely no reason to accept the current version of Reverberation into the live server.

Can NB mains who have absolutely zero clue about sorcerer stop commenting on sorcerers trying to get them deleted from the game.

It's been 10+ years already, enough is enough, stick to your own class and let others have a chance to have fun playing their class.

What does this have to do with "Nightblade players"? Don't "Nightblade players" have the right to comment on balance? Or do you not want the game to be balanced so you can continue to dominate with Sorc?

Even more absurd is that some people actually think Pressure Points are better than Expert Mage. How can 2.5% Critical Chance be better than 108 Weapon Damage? Don't forget that in PvP, all experienced players have very high Critical Resistance; 2.5% Critical Chance is practically useless! Even in PvE, 108 Weapon Damage is better because Sorc can recover more health using Surge and Blood Magic!

You're playing the wrong game man. The past year with subclassing NB's Assassination line has dominated the meta including other crit related skill lines to stack Crit Damage to ridiculous levels with delayed burst.

Every build needs a Major Resolve skill, so you have 7 options, the most obvious come down to Restoring Light and Storm Calling. Rune Focus is great, but if you don't need the sustain and prefer offense, Storm Calling is much more advantageous due to having well balanced passives and the best mobility skill in the game. Just so happens that during this crit meta, players are picking up Assassination and Animal Companions, both of which have Crit Damage, and you also need a Major Brutality/Sustain skill, to which Betty works well for. This pushes out the great Restoring Light line in favour of Storm Calling.

No one is picking up Storm Calling strictly for their 108 w/s damage, and not a single person is touching Dark Magic and Daedric Summoning the same way no one is touching Shadow or Siphoning. So what exactly is your point? Assassination has some of, if not the best passives and abilities in the game, why would you even begin to compare these in a vaccum like that?

Is it PVE? Crit chance is also meta there, Assassination, and Herald of the Tome are the top picks on every build, but it's hard to take you seriously when you're the same person that said Sorc has the best cleave in the game because of Empower + Overload. We get it, you hate Sorc, cool. News flash, both NB and Sorc have similar problems of being prejudiced against for dealing too much single target DPS while ignoring the fact that they have more complex rotations, reliant on weaving, and no cleave. We're in the same boat.

This whole discussion started based on the notion that proc sets and status effects proc Static Reverb which is completely false. No one here is trying to knock NB down, in fact many of us commented on how underpowered the Masteries were.

Sorc has no shortage of AoE damage now. With class mastery, Sorc can deal considerable AoE damage through Conservation of Energy and Shattering Spines. Shattering Spines is undoubtedly Sorc's most powerful AoE spam, not to mention it also inflicts immobilize and Major Maim, effects that are extremely useful in both PvP and PvE.

Can we stop pretending Sorc is weak? Since U35, Sorc has undoubtedly been the strongest and most played class. The ubiquitous Lightning Staves heavy attacks are proof enough.

You’re joking right? … nobody slots Shattering Spines, it’s a dog water skill that only does damage to enemies that were “encased”. Given how many sources of immobilization immunity there are in the game nobody with any experience in the game would slot this skill in PvP. There’s better sources of Maim.

AoE effects work in PvP but the mechanics behind Sorcs AoE skill are pretty weak. Lightning Flood and any of the ground based AoEs are easily avoidable. Arguably Atro is the best AoE in the Sorc tool kit and it’s an Ult, but compare that to Necro’s Colossus which deals 3x high scaling bursts and applies a more beneficial direct status effect, whereas Atro applies ones lesser scaling burst and offers a buff only triggered by an ally synergy, not even the Sorc themselves can trigger it.

In PvP crit & burst are king and Sorcs have neither. The only “go-to” Sorcs have are heavy attack builds which is extremely limited and really more viable for PvE than PvP .. Even with that Sorc skills aren’t at the top of the Logs in PvE, Arcanists are.

Just a friendly reminder: if I understand correctly, Shattering Spines now deals damage even to targets that haven't been affected by or are immune to immobilize. This is because a previous change made the skill's damage similar to Daedric Curse, dealing damage upon the expiration of the duration or upon repeated hits, rather than only damaging targets affected by immobilize. Therefore, using Shattering Spines as spam is "theoretically feasible."

However, Shattering Spines' damage is still lower than most AoE damage skills, and its mana cost is high, making it difficult to use consecutively. Furthermore, immobilize and Major Maim are not very useful in PvE.

Therefore, Shattering Spines is indeed not a powerful AoE; it's just another useless Sorc skill.

acanca · 5:08AM

MashmalloMan wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Dunno maybe because la travels fast and ba travels slow squeezing it over 1.2 sec mark, i can try to get a vid if you want.

The screenshot is using Rapid Strikes, you were using a melee weapon in melee range. Melee instant attacks land instantly unlike projectiles that have a minimum travel time. I don't need a recording because that's just how time works and it's besides the point. You can't proc something 4 times within 0.8s if there is a 0.3s cooldown, so I can only assume there was some type of delay.

acanca wrote: »

People are already ranting about one shot gank builds from live server, what do you think is going to happen with this passive, is it going to make for a healthy game play or will it just help sorc secure a kill way easier than normal because people combined it with Font and didnt care about their survivability in the first place. I agree with you that sorcs other passives are way stronger and needs adjustment, but i dont think this passive is healthy for the game at all. At least status effects (except poisoned), dont act as an execute.

I swear it's like you didn't read anything I wrote, you're not going to 1 shot anyone with this by its very definition. It can't proc more than 3 times a second. People are complaining about Signet + Status Effects + Force Pulse + Asylum Destro which procs 3~7 status efects for 2-3x the damage as Static, ALL at the same time, that complaint is not comparable in the slightest. The set needs a massive nerf. Base status effects and by extension Static are not an issue.

I do not doubt casuals will complain about it despite it being meh because it ticks frequently for very little, Death Recaps will show "10,000 damage x 45" and they'll misunderstand what really killed them. You're complaining about it and it seems you haven't even fought a player using it and the type of build it requires vs whats possible.

acanca wrote: »

And again, this passive is supposed to be good at low health thresholds and we are talking about 62% (granted inflated) probability of it proccing at 90% hp, its obviously way better at lower health tresholds.

It is good at low health, the problem is it's bad at high health and PVP takes place at or around the 70~100% zone before you're asking to be deleted. 1 proc a second is only 20% stronger than Burning Light, and your suggestion is to make it like that with a % chance... for a Mastery? We're talking about bonuses that give 1500 w/s damage vs 258, 5x more valuable on average, and your suggestion is to make it nearly equal to Burning Light.. Do you not see how that makes no sense?

acanca wrote: »

..at least status effects don't act as an execute..

How did you come to this concluson?

In a build where you could get a tooltip of 2000 on Static, you would also have 2140 Burning (x3), 2356 for Chill, and 2356 for Concuss.. but these 3 among the other 5 can be multiplied by 85% on Signet, 40% from Warden, 15% from Arcanist, 40% from Arcanist set, 30~50% from DK, etc, etc. There is no Static dedicated multiplier. They have no CD, so a player abusing the obvious mechanics right now can do this 3~7 times with Asylum D Staff, yet before Signet, it was NEVER a problem, so why is a it problem now?

But your right.. status effects don't act as an execute because they're just fantastic all the time, they don't need low health.

acanca wrote: »

And again, i agree that i would just take the guaranteed damage with Font as well but thats mainly because i tend to a more brawler play style, i dont think this passive is bad at all, turning a half health BA into an execute by itself imo makes it problematic. I also know your view on BA, i disagree, BA is a good skill imo.

Never said it was bad, I said it's not worth the opportunity/cost, what your suggestion is would absolutely murder it from any sort of viability however small I may see it as.

Whatever, not gonna change your mind, just saying if you want your class improved, maybe avoid burning bridges, and putting out false information. Focus on improving your own class. Either way, you won't catch me using this Mastery in its current state beyond role play.

What do you mean if you want your class improved, i dont have a class, i play whats strong and fun, the whole idea of having a class is funny to me.

And also its like we are ignoring the problem with this passive altogether? That it easily turns stuff into an execute + can be taken next to font. People are already complaining about the pvp feeling more like an fps with the time to kill on live and we are still trying to maintain the narrative that this passive wouldnt be great, right. There is frankly no reason for sorc to get a passive that allows it 800+ weapon damage and also a passive that turns the class into an execute machine.