Pinktraining wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Exposing tedious mathematical arguments doesn't prove that Reverberation's current state is acceptable. In fact, it only makes people dislike Sorc and Reverberation more. Nobody likes having to calculate probabilities in the tense atmosphere of PvP. Reverberation either needs to be nerfed to a 5-second cooldown or have its damage nerfed by 50%, otherwise there's absolutely no reason to accept the current version of Reverberation into the live server.

Can NB mains who have absolutely zero clue about sorcerer stop commenting on sorcerers trying to get them deleted from the game.

It's been 10+ years already, enough is enough, stick to your own class and let others have a chance to have fun playing their class.

What does this have to do with "Nightblade players"? Don't "Nightblade players" have the right to comment on balance? Or do you not want the game to be balanced so you can continue to dominate with Sorc?

Even more absurd is that some people actually think Pressure Points are better than Expert Mage. How can 2.5% Critical Chance be better than 108 Weapon Damage? Don't forget that in PvP, all experienced players have very high Critical Resistance; 2.5% Critical Chance is practically useless! Even in PvE, 108 Weapon Damage is better because Sorc can recover more health using Surge and Blood Magic!

NB players are allowed (and encouraged) to comment on balance when being constructive, not when they are deliberately spreading hate, lies, BS and other completely biased/nonsense takes that has zero basis in reality or the current state of the game.

Comments like the one I responded to that called for a 50% DPS nerf or 1500% nerf to it's cooldown is not something that is based in reality, fairness, or reason, it was nothing more than a biased cry about something that had no facts/proof to back it up. The comment has also since been disproven by Mashmalloman's math above showing the DPS of reverb is similar to the burning light passive (assuming reverb is proc'd at minimum every GCD, if it misses a single GCD it's worse than BL), while also being harder to proc than BL and nobody is complaining about BL, so reverb is left as a situational mastery for dummy parse number inflating at best and just not worth using over the other class masteries).

As for this comment, you are confusing crit chance with crit damage. Crit resist doesn't lower your opponents chances of getting a critical strike. Getting a Critical Strike will ALWAYS result in increased damage done unless you specifically build to have literally zero or negative critical damage done values, even against someone who has every available crit resistance possible, a critical strike will deal significantly increased damage than a non critical strike would.

The other thing that gets massively overlooked by those who think crit rate is worse than weapon damage is that crit rate also affects healing like weapon damage does, but unlike weapon damage where there's countless ways to reduce enemies weapon damage, there's only 1 debuff to reduce the targets chance to critically heal (minor uncertainty, no major version yet) and those come from poisons (super niche), torch bearer (laughably bad), travelling knife (prohibitively expensive to spam) and critical riposte set (hasn't been good in over 5+ years, probably much longer) and there (currently) no way to reduce the targets critical healing done stat (enervation does not affect critical healing, only critical damage).

There's a reason Assassination is the SINGLE MOST SUBCLASSED LINE ACROSS BOTH PVP AND PVE and that is even POST Merciless Resolve "nerf" (removal of it's free bonus weapon damage) that Assassination still holds that crown.

The line not only gives insane crit rate (nearly 50% just on it's own thanks to having 4 amazing abilities worth slotting) that buffs damage to insane levels, but also buffs healing more than anything else in this game can.
Which is why before sub-classing offering was a better heal in practice than what the tooltip showed, because assassination buffed it by giving it a near 50% chance to crit (which on an average build that has a baseline +50% healing done, at a 50% crit rate, that averages out to a roughly +25% unreducible buff to healing done at base (no other modifiers so not counting any bonuses from things like khajiit, champion points, sets, or anything else), which is something that no other heal skill had access to before everyone could sub-class assassination and not even the combat medic passive (+20% healing done while near a keep) increases healing done by that amount and that's the only thing that the combat medic passive does and only while near a keep in cyrodiil specifically.

There's a reason crit rate used to be so insanely hard to get before ZOS gave it all to the assassination line then allowed everyone to sub-class into that line. Crit rate is the single strongest stat in the game, nothing else even comes close to how strong and fast scaling crit rate is.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Exposing tedious mathematical arguments doesn't prove that Reverberation's current state is acceptable. In fact, it only makes people dislike Sorc and Reverberation more. Nobody likes having to calculate probabilities in the tense atmosphere of PvP. Reverberation either needs to be nerfed to a 5-second cooldown or have its damage nerfed by 50%, otherwise there's absolutely no reason to accept the current version of Reverberation into the live server.

Can NB mains who have absolutely zero clue about sorcerer stop commenting on sorcerers trying to get them deleted from the game.

It's been 10+ years already, enough is enough, stick to your own class and let others have a chance to have fun playing their class.

What does this have to do with "Nightblade players"? Don't "Nightblade players" have the right to comment on balance? Or do you not want the game to be balanced so you can continue to dominate with Sorc?

Even more absurd is that some people actually think Pressure Points are better than Expert Mage. How can 2.5% Critical Chance be better than 108 Weapon Damage? Don't forget that in PvP, all experienced players have very high Critical Resistance; 2.5% Critical Chance is practically useless! Even in PvE, 108 Weapon Damage is better because Sorc can recover more health using Surge and Blood Magic!

NB players are allowed (and encouraged) to comment on balance when being constructive, not when they are deliberately spreading hate, lies, BS and other completely biased/nonsense takes that has zero basis in reality or the current state of the game.

Comments like the one I responded to that called for a 50% DPS nerf or 1500% nerf to it's cooldown is not something that is based in reality, fairness, or reason, it was nothing more than a biased cry about something that had no facts/proof to back it up. The comment has also since been disproven by Mashmalloman's math above showing the DPS of reverb is similar to the burning light passive (assuming reverb is proc'd at minimum every GCD, if it misses a single GCD it's worse than BL), while also being harder to proc than BL and nobody is complaining about BL, so reverb is left as a situational mastery for dummy parse number inflating at best and just not worth using over the other class masteries).

As for this comment, you are confusing crit chance with crit damage. Crit resist doesn't lower your opponents chances of getting a critical strike. Getting a Critical Strike will ALWAYS result in increased damage done unless you specifically build to have literally zero or negative critical damage done values, even against someone who has every available crit resistance possible, a critical strike will deal significantly increased damage than a non critical strike would.

The other thing that gets massively overlooked by those who think crit rate is worse than weapon damage is that crit rate also affects healing like weapon damage does, but unlike weapon damage where there's countless ways to reduce enemies weapon damage, there's only 1 debuff to reduce the targets chance to critically heal (minor uncertainty, no major version yet) and those come from poisons (super niche), torch bearer (laughably bad), travelling knife (prohibitively expensive to spam) and critical riposte set (hasn't been good in over 5+ years, probably much longer) and there (currently) no way to reduce the targets critical healing done stat (enervation does not affect critical healing, only critical damage).

There's a reason Assassination is the SINGLE MOST SUBCLASSED LINE ACROSS BOTH PVP AND PVE and that is even POST Merciless Resolve "nerf" (removal of it's free bonus weapon damage) that Assassination still holds that crown.

The line not only gives insane crit rate (nearly 50% just on it's own thanks to having 4 amazing abilities worth slotting) that buffs damage to insane levels, but also buffs healing more than anything else in this game can.
Which is why before sub-classing offering was a better heal in practice than what the tooltip showed, because assassination buffed it by giving it a near 50% chance to crit (which on an average build that has a baseline +50% healing done, at a 50% crit rate, that averages out to a roughly +25% unreducible buff to healing done at base (no other modifiers so not counting any bonuses from things like khajiit, champion points, sets, or anything else), which is something that no other heal skill had access to before everyone could sub-class assassination and not even the combat medic passive (+20% healing done while near a keep) increases healing done by that amount and that's the only thing that the combat medic passive does and only while near a keep in cyrodiil specifically.

There's a reason crit rate used to be so insanely hard to get before ZOS gave it all to the assassination line then allowed everyone to sub-class into that line. Crit rate is the single strongest stat in the game, nothing else even comes close to how strong and fast scaling crit rate is.

No one complains about Burning Light, that's because Templars have low attack frequency and slow movement. But Sorc has the highest attack frequency and movement speed in the game, and now with Static Reverb as an additional damage source (even if the probability is unstable), it still severely damages PvP. Adding another damage source to a class with such high attack frequency and this class happens to dominate both PvP and PvE, is simply the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

Furthermore, we're talking about "pure Nightblades," not a single skill line. Assassination is currently the only somewhat usable line for Nightblades, and even adding more abilities to Assassination won't make pure Nightblades overpowered.

What's the point of more crit chances when your crit damage is negated by Critical Resistance?

Pinktraining wrote: »

No one complains about Burning Light, that's because Templars have low attack frequency and slow movement. But Sorc has the highest attack frequency and movement speed in the game, and now with Static Reverb as an additional damage source (even if the probability is unstable), it still severely damages PvP. Adding another damage source to a class with such high attack frequency and this class happens to dominate both PvP and PvE, is simply the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

Furthermore, we're talking about "pure Nightblades," not a single skill line. Assassination is currently the only somewhat usable line for Nightblades, and even adding more abilities to Assassination won't make pure Nightblades overpowered.

What's the point of more crit chances when your crit damage is negated by Critical Resistance?

1 image/word completely debunks your entire point about plars attack frequency. The literal first skill available to templars from level 1 in the templar Aedric Spear skill line:

Jabs.





Still not enough for you? Fine here's another multi-hit skill within plars class kit that ticks multiple times per second:
As for "the point about crit chance when damage is negated by resistances" there is plenty, but 3 main ones include:
- Proc sets that require landing a critical strike to proc them (e.g. zaan, null arca, tarnished nightmare, etc.)
- Ability procs that require critical strikes to proc effects (e.g. crit surge healing)
- All around boost to damage and healing that stacks multiplicatively with other increases to damage and healing so even if the critical damage is being reduced it still outperforms not having crit chance at all.

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Obvious troll acc

Agreed.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Static Reverberation

This passive was a huge problem for pvp week 1. It was in a fine state after getting adjusted to 0.5 seconds. Its now back to being too powerful with 0.3 seconds cool down and being buffed to base 5% proc rate.

Part of the problem comes from sorc being too good at being able to proc it. 5% proc base doesnt sound like much but consider that a regular status effect build can deal up to 10 instances of seperate damage per second. For example

1-Vateshran destro proc
2-Burning status effect from vateshran
3-Light attack
4-Concussion from thread of war
5-Crushing shock (frost)
6-Crushing shock (fire)
7-Crushing shock (shock)
8-Chill from crushing shock
9-Burning from crushing shock
10- Concussion from crushing shock
11-Hurricane

10+ instances of seperate damage in a single second with a 5% base proc chance at full hp, skyrocketing to a certainty at lower health thresholds. This isnt just limited to this specific scenario either, bound armamant is 4 instance of seperate damage by itself and is by itself a burst damage and the burst damage having near certainty to proc additional damage turns it from a burst to an easy execute. In fact it turns basically everything in sorcs arsenal to an execute extremely easily.

Malevolent Promise was excluded from pvp for being too war crimey, well, this passive is the actual war crime. Please consider adding a once per second clause to it with battle spirit active. Proccing an extra instance of damage every second easily makes it one of the best pure class passives in the game, simply makes it less toxic by preventing it from being oppressive in pvp.

I have to disagree here.

You’re right about being able to stack stand effects but re-read your own post. Out of the 10 sources of status application only one comes from Sorc … just one.

Nothing else on that list is Sorc Specific which means that being a Sorc doesn’t make those skills any more effective. It’s not as though Sorcs can synergize those status effects better than any other class because any and every other class can slot 9 out of those 10 abilities, it’s just that Sorcs have the passive.

To be honest the main status I see Sorcs using here is Overcharge rather than any of the elementals and that’s really leaning a bit on LA & scribing, also outside of the class skill set.

Running a status effect build can hit hard in PvP but it leaves the build open to quite a lot because in order to maximize it requires specific supporting gear and attention to their mitigation. A status-effect Sorc vs a subclassed crit meta build, for example, is going to have a run for their money because they’re going to have to keep up shields & heal in a rotation versus just spamming LA + skill weaves.

Sorcs are not in a good place. I don’t know who thinks that but this observation really is evidence of that if Sorcs are leaning on status effect output rather than their own class skills.

These passives need to hit hard and the buff makes sense, it provides for a viable means to be competitive in the scope of subclasses builds until the Sorc refresh, which is the whole point. Static at 0.3 & 5% is where it needs to be.

What does the source of the skill have to do with anything? Are you guys just trying to be funny?

Because your argument is that Sorcs are somehow better able to make use of applying status effects.

That, factually, isn’t true because 90% of the sources of applying those status effects are available to every player, they’re not Sorc specific.

This means that, no, Sorcs do not have some extra benefit when it comes to applying status effects, anyone can use Crushing Shock, anyone can run Vateshran, anyone can light attack with a Destro staff, etc.

If Sorcs had clad specific skills that were better able to apply status effects then, yes, you’d be right; Sorcs would have an easier time than other classes but that isn’t the case.

I don’t think it’s right to ask for a passive to be nerfed simply because it synergizes with world skills; especially when the class skills for the class in question are so poor.

Using status effects as a main source of damage in PvP is both interesting and risky; and really only works if the player is running the Signet mythic, which, anyone else can slot too. This leaves a build like that open to quite a lot in PvP despite having some descent damage potential but is far from OP.

My argument is that sorc has an easy time proccing Static Reverbation passive. I'm sorry to say that literally everything you are talking about is irrelevant to the topic...

I'll put it in simple terms to be better understood. We dont consider Wild Adaptation weak because warden can maintain at most chilled and maybe hemorrhaging with its base class skills. We consider it strong because with elemental susceptibility, blood for blood and various other sets and skills warden is able to reach and maintain a respectable number of status effects.

Obviously we dont treat class masteries in a vacuum with only the class skills. That would be, absurd, ill put a stop to this nonsense that non class skills has to be disregarded while considering class masteries. I will also ask you to reconsider your bias on sorc, it seems to be clouding your judgment.

And what myself and others are telling you is that Sorcs don’t have as easy of a time proccing the passive as you seem to think.

Remember, Static doesn’t just proc per instance of damage, it procs per instance of damage within the 0.3s timeframe. So if a Sorc tosses Crushing Shock and deals 3 instances of damage all at once, then that counts as “one” for the purposes of Static because all 3 occurred at the same time and the passive has the 0.3s cooldown, so effectively, 2 out of the 3 instances don’t contribute to the passive.

Nobody is saying that you consider Mastery passives in a vacuum, what I’m saying is that you have to consider the current state of Sorc skills as they are now in the context of how much strength these passives should or should not have. Plus, Sorcs pay a penalty for having to slot world skills over their class skills in that they take a hit to their output in doing so which goes toward being able to proc Static in the first place.

When I talk about Sorcs using skills outside of their class it is relevant because Sorcs have no reliable spammable burst. Just about every class has at least one skill that’s a reliable heavy burst spam.

When you consider that Static only reliably procs after the targets health gets below a certain point you can see where this raises a problem for Sorcs in PvP, they need burst and they don’t have it and world skills only partially deliver on this.

In PvP, with Sorc having no heavy bursts and target players having strong self healing available, getting a target down to a low enough health for Static to do any consistent numbers isn’t as easy as you’re saying. Out of, let’s say, 5 or 6 instances of damage per GCD Static might proc once, and that’s only once their health hit gets lowered.

If Sorcs had a class skill like Merciless that scaled really high and could thereby chunk a players health in one burst and then allow Static to kick in and help the Sorc keep the targets health lower and keep applying the passive, then maybe you’d have a point but that’s not the case and no world skill is that strong either.

For comparison, Burning Light, for example, will proc FAR more consistently over the course of combat and do more damage than Static will since it can apply persistently, not just when targets are lower health.

Sorcs cannot realistically proc Static more than once per second, even though the passive cooldown is only 0.3s because Sorcs don’t have access to any skills that apply damage in fractional increments. Dealing multiple instances of damage all at the same time does not count each instance toward the passive.

Further, you have the health barrier to consider so the realistic amount of proc that can happen is far less than you’re thinking and testing shows that.

Even at relatively high health treshold like 85% hp 5 instances of damage with 20% proc chance each isnt a low proc rate and its basically a guarantee at even lower health tresholds.

But as you say if ''Sorcs cannot realistically proc Static more than once per second, even though the passive cooldown is only 0.3s because Sorcs don’t have access to any skills that apply damage in fractional increments. Dealing multiple instances of damage all at the same time does not count each instance toward the passive. '' than you wouldnt mind if the passive was adjusted to proc only once per second with battle spirit active so i have no idea why you are trying to argue with me when you agree with me.

Btw the skill you are looking for is BA ...

That’s not how this passive works.

If one deals 5 simultaneous instances of damage to a target they do not get a 20% chance EACH to proc. All 5 would constitute one chance and against a target that has 85% health that would be one 20% chance (5% base plus 15%, 1% for each missing percent of target health).

In order to get 5 chances to apply Static a Sorc would need to apply damage 5 separate times (not just 5 instances) which would mean 5 GCD or 5 seconds. Which takes me back to my original point that over 5 to 6 applications of damage (aka 5 or 6 seconds) this passive would likely proc once.

That’s nowhere near a guarantee proc chance. Plus, the damage doesn’t scale that awful high either, not given how limited the proc chance is.

Further, it’s only the BASE chance that’s 5%, it’s not 5% per missing health. It’s 5% plus 1% per missing health.

There is zero scenario where this passive has a 55%chance to apply damage against a target that has 90% health; that’s just factually wrong and it seems people might be confused as to how this passive actually works.

Now, yes; BA does apply at 0.3 increments, however, that’s the only available skill that aligns with the adjusted cooldown of Static and it’s not readily spammable, requiring a charge and it doesn’t scale anywhere near the damage of, say, Merciless. It’s not a burst and a full charge takes 1.3 seconds to fully execute, which, is why in PvP it’s not a commonly used skill. It’s just too slow and doesn’t deal enough damage in PvP to really be viable. So, again, on paper or just looking at tool tip, yes, one might think BA is a good skill to synergize with Static in PvP but the problem is neither scale to any strong damage value and none align with the strong burst damage PvP demands so there’s not really a good use case for the combo.

I PvP every day and I’ve rarely ever seen BA and I can understand why. It’s just not a good skill and I don’t think anyone is going to slot it just to try and proc Static. BA actually adds longer pacing potential to Static due to the charge full charge up factor so if anything BA holds this passive back even more.

Of course you can proc it more than once with a single skill, no its not hard and no it doesnt take a single gcd per proc.

Here is a single BA proccing it 3 times



Here is a single RS doing the same




Here is me proccing it 4 times a second with nothing but a la and a skill. Keep in mind that proccing it 4 times a sec should be hard because of the 0.3 sec cd but again, no it isnt because nobody deals all their damage in 0.3 sec intervals anyway, trying to fit all your damage in that little time bubble would actually be harder than not proccing it multiple times.




So yes i agree with you, proccing this passive more than once a second shouldnt be a thing with battle spirit active and i really hope Zos takes notice and adjusts it accordingly ...

You’re not proccing it 3 or 4 times per second, you’re proccing it 3 or 4 times per skill.

In the case of BA, yes, that is the only skill where 3 out of the 4 procs can occur within one second, the 4th would spill into the following second. But there’s a caveat here with BA in that in order to do this you have to have at least 3 or 4 charges, otherwise one cannot do this. BA isn’t a spammable skill so it’s not accurate to say that a Sorc could just use this skill as a means to excessively proc the passive in PvP.

Rapid Strikes takes more than a second to complete and more than 0.3 per strike to deliver so, yes, while it can proc multiple occurrences of the passive, it’s not doing so in less than a second it’s doing so per application which goes to pacing.

Lastly, using the skills on a low health target dummy isn’t reflective of actual PvP combat because you can whittle the health down and ensure a high proc chance which ignores the entire duration of wearing the health down, when the passive wasn’t proccing.

Get into a duel or any PvP venue and we won’t see these same results so when I say testing doesn’t show what your complaint is about that’s what I mean. Dummy parsing only shows that multiple instances of the passive can occur, which we all know, what it doesn’t show is the multiple instances happening collectively in under one second or in a PvP situation.

The only skill that can proc in less than a second is BA but for the charge up pacing reasons I mentioned before it’s not a reliable source of consistent proc which means it’s definitely not broken or in need of a nerf.

Just a friendly query. Are you certain that Bound Armaments is rarely used and that it's bad? Whenever I see any video or stream played as Sorc, they will have Bound Armaments and use it all the time. I dislike that skill, because it does not synergize with Overload centric statregies, but it seems to deal more damage for me than Crystal Fragments with all its Sundered procs.

With Sundered, yes it does more, but the reason Stam Sorc's generally don't like using is 2 fold:

• Probably the easiest to dodge ability in the game = Daggers have a 0.25s delay; 1m range is 0.6s~1.35s and 28m is 1.1s~1.85s. Grim Focus is 0.35s~1.1s, and Insta Frag is 0.53~1.08s. Since the damage is spread out, it not only reduces burst, but it makes it highly telegraphed to dodge all or at least half of the ability.
• It has a 10s timer = Nearly useless for melee builds on a Sorc that frequently finds itself weaving in and out of combat to reset with Streak/Dark Deal. It's much better for a ranged build, but then you're getting into that massive delay I discussed above.

Great damage overall, but not bursty, easy to avoid, and frankly annoying to use because you frequently lose stacks. Grim Focus stacks last forever, hit faster, harder, and heal in melee, all while being in a much better skill line. Frag is just more consistent, random but still ends up once every 3s vs once every 5-7s due to losing stacks or wasted skill casts.

The only streamers I really saw run it were Epic, Sekar, and Eman.. and I'm pretty sure it's just because they were so used to the Stam Sorc playstyle, they didn't really adapt with hybridization. I asked epic once and he just said he didn't like Curse, and I mean I agree because it can be purged, but I still find it easier to use and line up than BA. BA's one saving grace is that it works well with "Damage Done" bonuses since it ticks multiple times, it's better for pressure, Frag/Curse is better for consistent burst.

At one point I did some math before Signet became a thing for BA vs Relentless Focus. BA was -20% at 0 Sunder, -10% at 1, equal at 2, +10% at 3, and +20% at 4. Take that information as you will, personally, feels worse to me and I subclassed out Daedric Summoning any chance I got. Mind you, Mercilous is much better, but 5 stacks is harder to compare.

Put it this way.. BA is so unreliable, that before it got double stacks, Major Savagery, and Sunder chance, I had it slotted 99% of the time just for the 8% Max HP and 8% Max Stamina. I rarely ever casted it because it didn't do enough.

Edit: The chance for BA is 15% per Dagger now, it used to be 3%. BA is single target direct damage, so it should of had 10% to begin with, but that's an entirely seperate issue I have with ZOS and their inability to code things properly or consistently. At a 15% chance and no bonuses, you'll average 0.6 Sunder per cast, less than 1, with 2 pieces of Charged it becomes an average of 2 Sundered procs a cast, slightly more with CP.

Ah it is a pleasure. You always take so much time to make your point and give practical and proven examples. You have my thanks.

I am glad you say this, because I do not like Bound Armaments, but seeing everyone use it made me feel forced into it. Now I feel a bit more at ease for not using it. I still wonder if all those people can be so wrong. Usually when I see a Sorc, I will also see those floating daggers.