Make Pyrebrand crit again

s3dulo · May 5

When Pyrebrand first came out, it was definitely a little OP and needed some tuning but the subsequent nerf was far too heavy handed. It nearly killed the set. -16% damage was rough but the real injustice was treating it like oblivion damage and taking away it's ability to crit. I don't have all the sets and abilities memorized but I can't think of another example of a DoT that can't crit besides oblivion damage. In addition to the Dot, I really like the heavy attack Pyreburst feature of this set. It's such a unique idea and very fitting for a DK but without the ability to crit it all just feels so flat and underwhelming.

So it's time to let Pyrebrand crit once more. I don't think that asking for this proc set to crit like every other proc set (A few even stronger than Pyrebrand's DPS potential) is asking too much.

Luneca · May 5

People are already complaining about a mid set like Serpent's Disdain, and you honestly think it's a good idea to power up Pyreband? It's not happening.

When ZOS nerfs something, they usually don't undo it. It's a good thing I learned a long time ago not to grind hard for gear in this game. I'll just fire siege.

CameraBeardThePirate · May 5

Pyrebrand cannot crit because it has a % scaling modifier.

I can't think of another example of a DoT that can't crit besides oblivion damage.

Any set with a % scaling modifier works like this. To list a few:

Pyrebrand; scales on how many dots the target has applied to them.

Plaguebreak; the explosion scales on how many targets are hit (neither the DoT nor the burst can crit, despite only the explosion scaling).

Maarselok; scales based on how many negative effects the target has on them

Zaan; each tick scales a % higher than the last

Vateshran Destruction Staff; each tick scales a % higher than the last

There are a few others I believe as well. This is the case because allowing the % scaling sets to crit would cause their damage to scale extremely high due to multiplicative interactions.

Wuuffyy · May 5

=

Luneca wrote: »

People are already complaining about a mid set like Serpent's Disdain, and you honestly think it's a good idea to power up Pyreband? It's not happening.

When ZOS nerfs something, they usually don't undo it. It's a good thing I learned a long time ago not to grind hard for gear in this game. I'll just fire siege.

What happens if/when they nerf siege though?

Also, OP they're going to come for you. This was the ultimate sin.

I don't think Pyrebrand should crit but it also shouldn't be 'on monster'd either so there's that.

xylena · May 5

Bold move asking for buffs to the S-Tier proc set exclusive to the S-Tier class.

s3dulo · May 5

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Pyrebrand cannot crit because it has a % scaling modifier.

I can't think of another example of a DoT that can't crit besides oblivion damage.

Any set with a % scaling modifier works like this. To list a few:

Pyrebrand; scales on how many dots the target has applied to them.

Plaguebreak; the explosion scales on how many targets are hit (neither the DoT nor the burst can crit, despite only the explosion scaling).

Maarselok; scales based on how many negative effects the target has on them

Zaan; each tick scales a % higher than the last

Vateshran Destruction Staff; each tick scales a % higher than the last

There are a few others I believe as well. This is the case because allowing the % scaling sets to crit would cause their damage to scale extremely high due to multiplicative interactions.

Pyreburst might have a % scaling modifier but the actual light attack DoT does not. And the Pyreburst is pretty weak regardless.

Alchimiste1 · May 5

No ty

s3dulo · May 5

xylena wrote: »

Bold move asking for buffs to the S-Tier proc set exclusive to the S-Tier class.

S Tire proc set is not accurate at all. It's just OK and has fallen off since the DK refresh. I stopped using it in favor of much more effective sets and I never see it in my damage recap or CMX anymore. Maybe it will get picked up again since it can proc wildfire next patch.......maybe. Even so, being able to crit still wouldn't give it the DPS potential of Null Arca

s3dulo · May 5

Luneca wrote: »

People are already complaining about a mid set like Serpent's Disdain, and you honestly think it's a good idea to power up Pyreband? It's not happening.

When ZOS nerfs something, they usually don't undo it. It's a good thing I learned a long time ago not to grind hard for gear in this game. I'll just fire siege.

I think it's great idea. Asking for nerfs is weird unless something is grossly uncompetitive like Shattered Paths is making pulse gankers right now. Giving pyrebrand crit would make a mediocre set a little better is all. I've yet to have an encounter in group or 1v1 that makes me think Serpents is a problem.

The people who think Pyrebrand a very strong set at the moment must not even use it. I can tell you, it's not.

CameraBeardThePirate · May 5

s3dulo wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Pyrebrand cannot crit because it has a % scaling modifier.

I can't think of another example of a DoT that can't crit besides oblivion damage.

Any set with a % scaling modifier works like this. To list a few:

Pyrebrand; scales on how many dots the target has applied to them.

Plaguebreak; the explosion scales on how many targets are hit (neither the DoT nor the burst can crit, despite only the explosion scaling).

Maarselok; scales based on how many negative effects the target has on them

Zaan; each tick scales a % higher than the last

Vateshran Destruction Staff; each tick scales a % higher than the last

There are a few others I believe as well. This is the case because allowing the % scaling sets to crit would cause their damage to scale extremely high due to multiplicative interactions.

Pyreburst might have a % scaling modifier but the actual light attack DoT does not. And the Pyreburst is pretty weak regardless.

Yes, but like Plaguebreak, since 1 portion has a scaling modifier, neither portion can crit.

s3dulo · May 5

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Pyrebrand cannot crit because it has a % scaling modifier.

I can't think of another example of a DoT that can't crit besides oblivion damage.

Any set with a % scaling modifier works like this. To list a few:

Pyrebrand; scales on how many dots the target has applied to them.

Plaguebreak; the explosion scales on how many targets are hit (neither the DoT nor the burst can crit, despite only the explosion scaling).

Maarselok; scales based on how many negative effects the target has on them

Zaan; each tick scales a % higher than the last

Vateshran Destruction Staff; each tick scales a % higher than the last

There are a few others I believe as well. This is the case because allowing the % scaling sets to crit would cause their damage to scale extremely high due to multiplicative interactions.

Pyreburst might have a % scaling modifier but the actual light attack DoT does not. And the Pyreburst is pretty weak regardless.

Yes, but like Plaguebreak, since 1 portion has a scaling modifier, neither portion can crit.

A fully-charged heavy attack pyreburst with loads of DoTs is still weak and not worth doing. I've tried it a lot in PVP and it's weak and useless. That's what I'm asking for. Take a weak and useless aspect of a set and make it better. Let it crit. People acting like this would be game breaking. It will make an OK set a little stronger. I'm strongly in favor of making sets more useful and remove them from the vast pile of mediocre to absolutely useless sets.

Honestly weird to see pushback against that. Name your favorite class.....I'm in favor of buffing all class sets related to that class because 1. I'm not afraid to compete against it 2. More variety and options are better.

As long as things are still competitive, it's not a problem.

Militan1404 · May 5

s3dulo wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

People are already complaining about a mid set like Serpent's Disdain, and you honestly think it's a good idea to power up Pyreband? It's not happening.

When ZOS nerfs something, they usually don't undo it. It's a good thing I learned a long time ago not to grind hard for gear in this game. I'll just fire siege.

I think it's great idea. Asking for nerfs is weird unless something is grossly uncompetitive like Shattered Paths is making pulse gankers right now. Giving pyrebrand crit would make a mediocre set a little better is all. I've yet to have an encounter in group or 1v1 that makes me think Serpents is a problem.

The people who think Pyrebrand a very strong set at the moment must not even use it. I can tell you, it's not.

Its something funny about someone finding something to be grossly uncompetitive and while being a DK.

s3dulo · May 5

Militan1404 wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

People are already complaining about a mid set like Serpent's Disdain, and you honestly think it's a good idea to power up Pyreband? It's not happening.

When ZOS nerfs something, they usually don't undo it. It's a good thing I learned a long time ago not to grind hard for gear in this game. I'll just fire siege.

I think it's great idea. Asking for nerfs is weird unless something is grossly uncompetitive like Shattered Paths is making pulse gankers right now. Giving pyrebrand crit would make a mediocre set a little better is all. I've yet to have an encounter in group or 1v1 that makes me think Serpents is a problem.

The people who think Pyrebrand a very strong set at the moment must not even use it. I can tell you, it's not.

Its something funny about someone finding something to be grossly uncompetitive and while being a DK.

Personally, I haven't had trouble with shatter path users but I've seen a lot of complaints from people I respect. And don't worry, your class refresh is coming and the big scary DKs won't seem so scary anymore.

Militan1404 · May 5

s3dulo wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

People are already complaining about a mid set like Serpent's Disdain, and you honestly think it's a good idea to power up Pyreband? It's not happening.

When ZOS nerfs something, they usually don't undo it. It's a good thing I learned a long time ago not to grind hard for gear in this game. I'll just fire siege.

I think it's great idea. Asking for nerfs is weird unless something is grossly uncompetitive like Shattered Paths is making pulse gankers right now. Giving pyrebrand crit would make a mediocre set a little better is all. I've yet to have an encounter in group or 1v1 that makes me think Serpents is a problem.

The people who think Pyrebrand a very strong set at the moment must not even use it. I can tell you, it's not.

Its something funny about someone finding something to be grossly uncompetitive and while being a DK.

Personally, I haven't had trouble with shatter path users but I've seen a lot of complaints from people I respect. And don't worry, your class refresh is coming and the big scary DKs won't seem so scary anymore.

What you trying to imply here that DK aint broken? And the solution is not to make everything else broken to.

Pinktraining · May 6

We're in an awkward period. Before all classes are refreshed, it's difficult to comment on whether a particular class or set is too powerful, or whether there are other class/set builds that can counteract its strength. I think we'll ultimately have to wait until all classes are refreshed; hopefully, it won't be too long...

Luneca · May 6

Pinktraining wrote: »

We're in an awkward period. Before all classes are refreshed, it's difficult to comment on whether a particular class or set is too powerful, or whether there are other class/set builds that can counteract its strength. I think we'll ultimately have to wait until all classes are refreshed; hopefully, it won't be too long...

I don't think it is difficult to comment when some classes aren't getting any attention for over a year from now and will continue to be subpar post-masteries.

s3dulo · May 6

Militan1404 wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

People are already complaining about a mid set like Serpent's Disdain, and you honestly think it's a good idea to power up Pyreband? It's not happening.

When ZOS nerfs something, they usually don't undo it. It's a good thing I learned a long time ago not to grind hard for gear in this game. I'll just fire siege.

I think it's great idea. Asking for nerfs is weird unless something is grossly uncompetitive like Shattered Paths is making pulse gankers right now. Giving pyrebrand crit would make a mediocre set a little better is all. I've yet to have an encounter in group or 1v1 that makes me think Serpents is a problem.

The people who think Pyrebrand a very strong set at the moment must not even use it. I can tell you, it's not.

Its something funny about someone finding something to be grossly uncompetitive and while being a DK.

Personally, I haven't had trouble with shatter path users but I've seen a lot of complaints from people I respect. And don't worry, your class refresh is coming and the big scary DKs won't seem so scary anymore.

What you trying to imply here that DK aint broken? And the solution is not to make everything else broken to.

Trying to imply? I'll be more frank. 100% DK isn't broken. Is it a better pure class right now than any other pure class? Definitely. But that was the intention of ZOS. The plan is for pure classes to end up stronger after each one is refreshed. Once class mastery passives are released, the pure classes will be much stronger and more competitive. And then each class that is refreshed will also be elevated. It just happens that DK was first and if any other class had been first, you'd be complaining about how that class was broken. But to call something broken is to imply it's not working as intended when DK is working exactly as intended.

xylena · May 6

DK is fine, but buffing Pyrebrand further would break it.

If someday DK needs buffs again, do it through its skills, not through freakin proc sets.

Prionyx · May 6

No

Militan1404 · May 6

s3dulo wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

People are already complaining about a mid set like Serpent's Disdain, and you honestly think it's a good idea to power up Pyreband? It's not happening.

When ZOS nerfs something, they usually don't undo it. It's a good thing I learned a long time ago not to grind hard for gear in this game. I'll just fire siege.

I think it's great idea. Asking for nerfs is weird unless something is grossly uncompetitive like Shattered Paths is making pulse gankers right now. Giving pyrebrand crit would make a mediocre set a little better is all. I've yet to have an encounter in group or 1v1 that makes me think Serpents is a problem.

The people who think Pyrebrand a very strong set at the moment must not even use it. I can tell you, it's not.

Its something funny about someone finding something to be grossly uncompetitive and while being a DK.

Personally, I haven't had trouble with shatter path users but I've seen a lot of complaints from people I respect. And don't worry, your class refresh is coming and the big scary DKs won't seem so scary anymore.

What you trying to imply here that DK aint broken? And the solution is not to make everything else broken to.

Trying to imply? I'll be more frank. 100% DK isn't broken. Is it a better pure class right now than any other pure class? Definitely. But that was the intention of ZOS. The plan is for pure classes to end up stronger after each one is refreshed. Once class mastery passives are released, the pure classes will be much stronger and more competitive. And then each class that is refreshed will also be elevated. It just happens that DK was first and if any other class had been first, you'd be complaining about how that class was broken. But to call something broken is to imply it's not working as intended when DK is working exactly as intended.

No DK is not fine at all, and if you think so i are living in denial. Right now DK has no drawbacks, they have best burst, pressure, infinity sustain, tanky, great heals and mobility all at once. Class mastery wont fix that, not even close and each class would still be lacking in some parts. And some classes even have really bad class mastery passives. With sub-classing it was hard to be a pure class but could be done, and i was even playing a pure dk then and was doing fine. No other class should be brought up to the power creep DK is doing right now, its a no skill carry class right now.

BattleAxe · 12:22AM

Militan1404 wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

People are already complaining about a mid set like Serpent's Disdain, and you honestly think it's a good idea to power up Pyreband? It's not happening.

When ZOS nerfs something, they usually don't undo it. It's a good thing I learned a long time ago not to grind hard for gear in this game. I'll just fire siege.

I think it's great idea. Asking for nerfs is weird unless something is grossly uncompetitive like Shattered Paths is making pulse gankers right now. Giving pyrebrand crit would make a mediocre set a little better is all. I've yet to have an encounter in group or 1v1 that makes me think Serpents is a problem.

The people who think Pyrebrand a very strong set at the moment must not even use it. I can tell you, it's not.

Its something funny about someone finding something to be grossly uncompetitive and while being a DK.

Personally, I haven't had trouble with shatter path users but I've seen a lot of complaints from people I respect. And don't worry, your class refresh is coming and the big scary DKs won't seem so scary anymore.

What you trying to imply here that DK aint broken? And the solution is not to make everything else broken to.

Trying to imply? I'll be more frank. 100% DK isn't broken. Is it a better pure class right now than any other pure class? Definitely. But that was the intention of ZOS. The plan is for pure classes to end up stronger after each one is refreshed. Once class mastery passives are released, the pure classes will be much stronger and more competitive. And then each class that is refreshed will also be elevated. It just happens that DK was first and if any other class had been first, you'd be complaining about how that class was broken. But to call something broken is to imply it's not working as intended when DK is working exactly as intended.

No DK is not fine at all, and if you think so i are living in denial. Right now DK has no drawbacks, they have best burst, pressure, infinity sustain, tanky, great heals and mobility all at once. Class mastery wont fix that, not even close and each class would still be lacking in some parts. And some classes even have really bad class mastery passives. With sub-classing it was hard to be a pure class but could be done, and i was even playing a pure dk then and was doing fine. No other class should be brought up to the power creep DK is doing right now, its a no skill carry class right now.

Why should dk be brought down? The point of the class refresh/rework is to make pure class on par if not ahead of subclass. Also it’s not very fair to compare dk to every other class currently considering every class will be refreshed most likely by end of next yr.

Militan1404 · 1:32AM

BattleAxe wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

People are already complaining about a mid set like Serpent's Disdain, and you honestly think it's a good idea to power up Pyreband? It's not happening.

When ZOS nerfs something, they usually don't undo it. It's a good thing I learned a long time ago not to grind hard for gear in this game. I'll just fire siege.

I think it's great idea. Asking for nerfs is weird unless something is grossly uncompetitive like Shattered Paths is making pulse gankers right now. Giving pyrebrand crit would make a mediocre set a little better is all. I've yet to have an encounter in group or 1v1 that makes me think Serpents is a problem.

The people who think Pyrebrand a very strong set at the moment must not even use it. I can tell you, it's not.

Its something funny about someone finding something to be grossly uncompetitive and while being a DK.

Personally, I haven't had trouble with shatter path users but I've seen a lot of complaints from people I respect. And don't worry, your class refresh is coming and the big scary DKs won't seem so scary anymore.

What you trying to imply here that DK aint broken? And the solution is not to make everything else broken to.

Trying to imply? I'll be more frank. 100% DK isn't broken. Is it a better pure class right now than any other pure class? Definitely. But that was the intention of ZOS. The plan is for pure classes to end up stronger after each one is refreshed. Once class mastery passives are released, the pure classes will be much stronger and more competitive. And then each class that is refreshed will also be elevated. It just happens that DK was first and if any other class had been first, you'd be complaining about how that class was broken. But to call something broken is to imply it's not working as intended when DK is working exactly as intended.

No DK is not fine at all, and if you think so i are living in denial. Right now DK has no drawbacks, they have best burst, pressure, infinity sustain, tanky, great heals and mobility all at once. Class mastery wont fix that, not even close and each class would still be lacking in some parts. And some classes even have really bad class mastery passives. With sub-classing it was hard to be a pure class but could be done, and i was even playing a pure dk then and was doing fine. No other class should be brought up to the power creep DK is doing right now, its a no skill carry class right now.

Why should dk be brought down? The point of the class refresh/rework is to make pure class on par if not ahead of subclass. Also it’s not very fair to compare dk to every other class currently considering every class will be refreshed most likely by end of next yr.

Becouse its breaking class identity for once, what they trying to fix becouse of sub-classing destroyed class identity not breaking it even more. DKs identity is pressure, and being tanky, lacks burst, mobility, take down players by tiering them down and outlasting them. Not whatever they become now, master of everything and i am lucky if a fight last longer then 10sec.

Why is that not fair? You mean its its fair to buff one class to the moon while the other classes have to wait months and years? Yeah that sound fair.. and other classes is put in line with DK where is class identity then? Then we all are just a Jack of all trades running around in different skins beeing masters of everything and identity would be dead and ZOS once again messed up the one thing they where trying to fix.

And the the DK aint balanced within him self, when you compare the skills DK som are lacklusting while some are so stacked that it makes a no brainer to choose skills. The other is that as tanky as DKs are now they are only tanky for other players not being a DK as you easily could one shoot DK when being a DK your self and you are not even needing the new fancy mytich to do that. So DKs damage outperform its defensive capabilities by a long shot.

BattleAxe · 4:12AM

Militan1404 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

People are already complaining about a mid set like Serpent's Disdain, and you honestly think it's a good idea to power up Pyreband? It's not happening.

When ZOS nerfs something, they usually don't undo it. It's a good thing I learned a long time ago not to grind hard for gear in this game. I'll just fire siege.

I think it's great idea. Asking for nerfs is weird unless something is grossly uncompetitive like Shattered Paths is making pulse gankers right now. Giving pyrebrand crit would make a mediocre set a little better is all. I've yet to have an encounter in group or 1v1 that makes me think Serpents is a problem.

The people who think Pyrebrand a very strong set at the moment must not even use it. I can tell you, it's not.

Its something funny about someone finding something to be grossly uncompetitive and while being a DK.

Personally, I haven't had trouble with shatter path users but I've seen a lot of complaints from people I respect. And don't worry, your class refresh is coming and the big scary DKs won't seem so scary anymore.

What you trying to imply here that DK aint broken? And the solution is not to make everything else broken to.

Trying to imply? I'll be more frank. 100% DK isn't broken. Is it a better pure class right now than any other pure class? Definitely. But that was the intention of ZOS. The plan is for pure classes to end up stronger after each one is refreshed. Once class mastery passives are released, the pure classes will be much stronger and more competitive. And then each class that is refreshed will also be elevated. It just happens that DK was first and if any other class had been first, you'd be complaining about how that class was broken. But to call something broken is to imply it's not working as intended when DK is working exactly as intended.

No DK is not fine at all, and if you think so i are living in denial. Right now DK has no drawbacks, they have best burst, pressure, infinity sustain, tanky, great heals and mobility all at once. Class mastery wont fix that, not even close and each class would still be lacking in some parts. And some classes even have really bad class mastery passives. With sub-classing it was hard to be a pure class but could be done, and i was even playing a pure dk then and was doing fine. No other class should be brought up to the power creep DK is doing right now, its a no skill carry class right now.

Why should dk be brought down? The point of the class refresh/rework is to make pure class on par if not ahead of subclass. Also it’s not very fair to compare dk to every other class currently considering every class will be refreshed most likely by end of next yr.

Becouse its breaking class identity for once, what they trying to fix becouse of sub-classing destroyed class identity not breaking it even more. DKs identity is pressure, and being tanky, lacks burst, mobility, take down players by tiering them down and outlasting them. Not whatever they become now, master of everything and i am lucky if a fight last longer then 10sec.

Why is that not fair? You mean its its fair to buff one class to the moon while the other classes have to wait months and years? Yeah that sound fair.. and other classes is put in line with DK where is class identity then? Then we all are just a Jack of all trades running around in different skins beeing masters of everything and identity would be dead and ZOS once again messed up the one thing they where trying to fix.

And the the DK aint balanced within him self, when you compare the skills DK som are lacklusting while some are so stacked that it makes a no brainer to choose skills. The other is that as tanky as DKs are now they are only tanky for other players not being a DK as you easily could one shoot DK when being a DK your self and you are not even needing the new fancy mytich to do that. So DKs damage outperform its defensive capabilities by a long shot.

So first paragraph you’d rather dks hit like a wet noodle but stack dots? Which can easily be purged. Also dks go back to only being good for tanking? Also what do you define as pressure? Most PvP games I’ve played pressure is forcing the opponent on the defense and pushing their location which is either outright rolling over them or forcing them to give ground which dk is accomplishing.

Would you compare a freshly picked ripe apple to one that’s been sitting on a shelf for days? Obviously the fresh picked ripe apple will be better. Also you think it’s easy to code and alter the game so easily when in reality it takes time. What this means is by doing one class at a time they can give each class a more complete refresh versus what we got in the past only hitting small points on each class which solves little to nothing. Where is identity then when all classes are up to the dk standard? Well in the class itself a dk skills are nothing like any of the other classes. Just like a nightblades skills aren’t the same as a templars. Identity won’t be dead even when all classes are balanced. Everyone will play out their preferred classes power fantasy and not feel left behind because another class is by far the superior option.

Dk isn’t balance within itself. What!? At most you have 10 skill slots you can use with 2 ultimates. A damage dealer doesn’t need a lot of heals just as a tank doesn’t need a lot of damage skills. So obviously choices need to be made in selecting skills to accomplish a chosen role. Also as you state dks are only tanky against non dk players may I remind you dk is only class that has been reworked currently so again this is comparing fresh apple to old apples.