YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SolarRune wrote: »

Looking at the patch notes this has not been changed because of overperformance or too much damage being caused, its because how they were calculated was wrong.

As the patchnotes do not mention the change being related to damage output, shouldn't all items where this was wrong just be adjusted to minimise the difference between where it is now and where it is after the change in application? Surely in this new era of openness if it was about damage the developer note would say so.

Those sets were not intended to be performing as strongly as they were relative to other sets. It is like giving a set 400 Weapon Damage but in practice it provides 600 Weapon Damage due to some obscure bug. When you fix the bug, you would not at the same time be like, "Oh, but we're going to bump that back up to 600 Weapon Damage because that's what people got used to."

Personally, I think that it was GROSS that Tide-Born, a low-tier Crafted set that you can either just buy after 10 minutes in-game on a Level 1 character or make for yourself on Day 2, was out-shining most DLC trial sets. That is just dumb. Better sets should come from harder content. Spending gold to just buy end-game gear is the complete antithesis of that.

DLC trail sets shouldn't be the only good sets. A variety of sets should be situationally good considering the huge amount of poorly balanced sets in the game. Everyone's sick of the same old sets year after year

I don't agree that the only good trial gear should come from trials. That should be the predominant method and most trial gear should be on the same level as each other. But some stuff falls behind to power creep. And the lack of updates shouldn't prevent sets from other sources from being good. Crafted and Dungeon sets should be good there too. It's okay from them to not be the absolute best. But a crafted set being a good alternative to an outdated trial set is not a problem imo e.g. something like Sul-Xan requires enemies to be dying often. So, a flat damage set outperforming it in fights where that doesn't happen is not an issue imo.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't agree that the only good trial gear should come from trials. That should be the predominant method and most trial gear should be on the same level as each other. But some stuff falls behind to power creep. And the lack of updates shouldn't prevent sets from other sources from being good. Crafted and Dungeon sets should be good there too. It's okay from them to not be the absolute best. But a crafted set being a good alternative to an outdated trial set is not a problem imo.

Dungeon yes, Crafted no. IMO, of course.

At least someone has to put in the effort to run a dungeon, especially a DLC dungeon. But just paying some gold for Crafted/Overland gear requires literally zero effort. And so those sets should have the least power.

Crafted gear requires months of effort to make yourself. And the good sets are expensive. They aren't something people are just buying easily. People shouldn't have months of effort amount to nothing. It's not the same as overland. I've actually put in less effort getting normal trial gear than crafted gear.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't agree that the only good trial gear should come from trials. That should be the predominant method and most trial gear should be on the same level as each other. But some stuff falls behind to power creep. And the lack of updates shouldn't prevent sets from other sources from being good. Crafted and Dungeon sets should be good there too. It's okay from them to not be the absolute best. But a crafted set being a good alternative to an outdated trial set is not a problem imo.

Dungeon yes, Crafted no. IMO, of course.

At least someone has to put in the effort to run a dungeon, especially a DLC dungeon. But just paying some gold for Crafted/Overland gear requires literally zero effort. And so those sets should have the least power.

Crafted gear requires months of effort to make yourself. And the good sets are expensive. They aren't something people are just buying easily. People shouldn't have months of effort amount to nothing. It's not the same as overland. I've actually put in less effort getting normal trial gear than crafted gear.

That may be true for a full 10-trait set but Tide-Born is a measly 5-trait set that you can unlock in a couple of days.

It also isn't really effort so much as it is just waiting around for some timers to expire. There is no real "gameplay" involved in it.

And even that is being generous to Crafted sets because more often folk just join a guild or type in zone chat and have some benevolent Master Crafter make a purple set for free. That just should not be a thing for an end-game-level set.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't agree that the only good trial gear should come from trials. That should be the predominant method and most trial gear should be on the same level as each other. But some stuff falls behind to power creep. And the lack of updates shouldn't prevent sets from other sources from being good. Crafted and Dungeon sets should be good there too. It's okay from them to not be the absolute best. But a crafted set being a good alternative to an outdated trial set is not a problem imo.

Dungeon yes, Crafted no. IMO, of course.

At least someone has to put in the effort to run a dungeon, especially a DLC dungeon. But just paying some gold for Crafted/Overland gear requires literally zero effort. And so those sets should have the least power.

Crafted gear requires months of effort to make yourself. And the good sets are expensive. They aren't something people are just buying easily. People shouldn't have months of effort amount to nothing. It's not the same as overland. I've actually put in less effort getting normal trial gear than crafted gear.

That may be true for a full 10-trait set but Tide-Born is a measly 5-trait set that you can unlock in a couple of days.

It also isn't really effort so much as it is just waiting around for some timers to expire. There is no real "gameplay" involved in it.

And even that is being generous to Crafted sets because more often folk just join a guild or type in zone chat and have some benevolent Master Crafter make a purple set for free. That just should not be a thing for an end-game-level set.

I find it more effort than some of the normal trials. Some of those are so easy they might as well be fungal grotto. Okay that's a slight exaggerating but nAA is not hard and could probably be solo'ed if not for the touch pads. I see people get away clearing those that don't even follow mechs. I've taken low levels through those. I really think it should not be a problem for a few crafted sets to be on par with non-perfected gear.

I think guildmates being able to give someone the gear to start is also a good thing. It removes a barrier to entry from harder content. We need more people doing that content not less.

The main difficulty in doing trial content should come from the mechanics of the trial and gameplay such as knowing how to roll dodge, block, etc. Or learning a rotation (even if it's a heavy attack one). Perfected gear should be better then other stuff. But crafted gear being good enough for regular vet and on par with non-perfected equipment is not an issue. And if that means some perfected gear with very restrictive conditions ends up worse than it when if the set conditions aren't met, that's user error imo.

That may be true for a full 10-trait set but Tide-Born is a measly 5-trait set that you can unlock in a couple of days.

Not disagreeing with the base argument, but no one is unlocking 5 traits on 3 or 5 gear pieces in a couple days.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

That may be true for a full 10-trait set but Tide-Born is a measly 5-trait set that you can unlock in a couple of days.

Not disagreeing with the base argument, but no one is unlocking 5 traits on 3 or 5 gear pieces in a couple days.

After the research timer rebalance in U49, now they are.

Getting to the 5th trait researched takes 62 hours now total (so just over 2.5 d), and that's without ESO+ or any scrolls

Still only 3 pieces at a time right, assuming they haven't maxed those out which I don't think a brand new player is going to be able to do? Anyway, didn't mean to derail, I just don't think a new player is jumping on, researching 5 traits and becoming an OP god in two days. There are better arguments to be made, imo.

Orbital78 wrote: »

Orders wrath is crafted and high end too. It just didn't have the monster dmg modifier. It would be nice for IA sets to maybe get slayer to open more build options.

One of my fave things about Order's Wrath, especially now that Tide-born is so strong (was so strong?) is that OW only requires 3 traits learned to craft it. Others might be unhappy that new accounts can get access to a really good set so early, but on my alt accounts, it was amazing that I could craft it so early for myself, esp paired with Heartland Conqueror for <CP training gear. Besides, you have to KNOW about it to get it early, which removes most of the actually new accounts from acquiring it.

I just hope zos makes up the dmg loss of empower before/if the nerf goes live.

Hear, hear.

coop500 wrote: »

Lol so people are supposed to get crippled playing this game and we're calling it get gud.

I will forever stand by the toxicity that plagues this game's community.

What on Earth are you talking about? Playing a game shouldn't hurt you unless you have some major underlying condition in real life. Nothing in this game is going to hurt anyone.

If you have pain from rsi or whatever, you can make adjustments depending on what it is. Some people just won't be able to play certain games necessarily if they are crippled. Stinks, but life isn't fair . There's a certain point where you're going to mess up the game for everyone else and that isn't fair either.

I dunno about anyone else, but light attack weaving is legit starting to cause me index finger pain and I don't even HAVE any underlying medical conditions and I'm only 27 years old. This *** is just needlessly spammy and hard on people's hands who don't train for it or whatever. I legit started moving more and more towards beam-like builds and having to switch to using my middle finger when it hurts enough.

That's not healthy game design.

coop500 wrote: »

I dunno about anyone else, but light attack weaving is legit starting to cause me index finger pain and I don't even HAVE any underlying medical conditions and I'm only 27 years old. This *** is just needlessly spammy and hard on people's hands who don't train for it or whatever. I legit started moving more and more towards beam-like builds and having to switch to using my middle finger when it hurts enough.

That's not healthy game design.

I played nes games and other rts/mmorpgs in the past that require more inputs. If you're 27 and experiencing physical pain from 1 button every second on your mouse hand, something's not right.

EDIT: Probably has to do with your setup ergonomics such as chair height desk and hand angle, mouse, etc.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Someone being able to wear a gear set that someone else doesn't approve of isn't messing up the game for everyone else.

Dumbing down the game by making it so easier one bar builds are just as good as 2 bar ones (more skill required) would make anyone using the 2 bar builds putting in more effort a fool.

Good thing they didn't do that then! 2 bar builds have always outperformed 1 bar builds and still do! Have fun!

Well, some people are advocating for parity. That's just backwards design wise.