Werewolf Update From The Combat Refresh Team

coop500 · April 11

Vraedlich wrote: »

The thing is they first showed us the concept art, which looked awesome. Then the 3D model which looked nothing like it.
It still has giant bat/rat ears, not even remotely wolf like.
The "hairstyle" looks designed to appeal to 12 year old fortnite players.
Obviously it is a talented artist who had created it, who wanted to put their own flare on it.
People just want a werewolf looking werewolf.
At the end of the day the day ends.

Agreed, and it's sad to see admittedly, but I also know at this point we'd be lucky to get anymore changes. I was so happy about the feedback we provided earlier, and disappointed overall about how it was taken into account.

The larger size helps but I'd have to see it in-game to fully gauge how sad I'm gonna be, especially if the audio is cartoony like two-handed and to a lesser degree, DK audio is.

For people wondering, here's the concept art we got:

Look at those long, powerful arms, broad shoulders, aggressive, fierce face, a good cross of long pointy but still wolf-like ears from a front profile. Like there's some oddness to it still but... What happened, exactly? From concept to this? The current model kind of looks stoned I won't lie.

coop500 · April 11

Enemoriana wrote: »

"We can't add much more fur because of technical reasons, so we will add longer fur where nobody asked, oh, there is nothing left for bald places, they will stay so."
Please, transplant some fur from mohawk and back to better places.

And I very-very hope mohawk and those silly pointed ears will be not so ridiculous in correct pose.

However, it really look better than first version. There is a lot of things that can be improved, but at least It doesn't look sick and mangy now. Not yet something I will want to play, but now it is not a thing I would strongly avoid.

Agreed, I thought this was strange too. Nobody asked for a 'floofier' tail, nobody asked for more of a mohawk look. If anything, that ADDS to the hyena look people were criticizing.

The arms also just look so sad and puny, and the legs look like chicken legs and ugh... Sorry I'm being negative now but, I just looked back at the concept art and made myself sad.

coop500 · April 11

Also dumb side comment maybe but: We keep calling it a mohawk but it's not really one? A mohawk should be sharper, more pointed. This is just kind of a weird pile of hair.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · April 11

Just can't shake the image that the face, especially the ears, reminds me of cartoon 'evil' bats...

Vraedlich · April 11

Ataskir wrote: »

dmel25 wrote: »

With that said, the model is still abysmal. We DO NOT WANT that mohawk look, it looks so dumb. Someone mentioned that maybe it is just because this a still and it will look different in-game with animations, but the weird mohawk needs to go or be severally toned down. We don't need fully furred werewolves, but the giant mohawk down the back is ridiculous looking.

We? Who’s we?

The majority of people giving feedback.

Also the mane going down the back is honestly one of my favorite parts of this new model. Makes em look really wild! It could use a few touch ups, but honestly I’m pretty happy with what I’m seeing here. Hopefully we get a decent amount of skill styles in the future so everyone can have a WW look they can enjoy.

The hair on the back does look good. The tuft poking up on his head makes him look like tufty muppet.

More jowl fluff would go a long way, closer to someone's edit here:

argyro wrote: »

(screenshot)
(edit)

Arcturus · April 11

Very happy for the WW mains out there.

Now do the same for vampires.

Faltasë · April 11

I really am a fan of the size increase on the new new design, however, I genuinely think the rest of it is an ugly design.

The more cohesive fur color to skin color thing is good. And the amount of floof is fine, but the mullet and the face being less canine-like really bothers me. Can the devs tweak it so that it doesn't look like a hyena?

All the new werewolf reminds me of is a Gnoll from Baldurs Gate 3. At least make the face more canine-like. Plenty of people had already mentioned how to do that a couple months back during the feedback to the original new look, and it seems to have been completely ignored besides the ears(which don't really matter much in terms of helping it not look like a Gnoll)

Edit: what can help alleviate the hyena look is giving proper fur proportions. Wolves have manes, and jowl tufts. Maybe instead of the werewolf having the modern undercut *** mullet you could tone that down a bit and add the wolf mane/jowl tufts. That would alleviate a lot of the hyena vibes but I'd also recommend it's a snout/mouth problem as well as the ridiculous looking ears.

coop500 · April 11

Faltasë wrote: »

I really am a fan of the size increase on the new new design, however, I genuinely think the rest of it is an ugly design.

The more cohesive fur color to skin color thing is good. And the amount of floof is fine, but the mohawk and the face being less canine-like really bothers me. Can the devs tweak it so that it doesn't look like a hyena?

All the new werewolf reminds me of is a Gnoll from Baldurs Gate 3. At least make the face more canine-like. Plenty of people had already mentioned how to do that a couple months back during the feedback to the original new look, and it seems to have been completely ignored besides the ears(which don't really matter much in terms of helping it not look like a Gnoll)

I agree, I don't really know what happened. It feels like the devs got hung up on the 'more fur' request, did that very weirdly (putting fur on places people weren't asking them to), made it bigger (yay!) and that was... kinda it.

Mesh work, it needs mesh work, not just more fur slapped around.

Faltasë · April 12

coop500 wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

I really am a fan of the size increase on the new new design, however, I genuinely think the rest of it is an ugly design.

The more cohesive fur color to skin color thing is good. And the amount of floof is fine, but the mohawk and the face being less canine-like really bothers me. Can the devs tweak it so that it doesn't look like a hyena?

All the new werewolf reminds me of is a Gnoll from Baldurs Gate 3. At least make the face more canine-like. Plenty of people had already mentioned how to do that a couple months back during the feedback to the original new look, and it seems to have been completely ignored besides the ears(which don't really matter much in terms of helping it not look like a Gnoll)

I agree, I don't really know what happened. It feels like the devs got hung up on the 'more fur' request, did that very weirdly (putting fur on places people weren't asking them to), made it bigger (yay!) and that was... kinda it.

Mesh work, it needs mesh work, not just more fur slapped around.

Fur also in the wrong places too. Made it kind of look like Theo Von mullet instead of a wolf. Wolves have manes and jowl tufts... I see this and just instantly get reminded of a Gnoll. Since they have no manes and in BG3 straight up have hair more like mohawks.

I'm not sure where they went wrong either because the concept art slaps so hard, but the execution, at least from the angle they've provided, leaves a lot to be desired.

Kory · April 12

Wow they actually did it. Sending in feedback works.
The payoff feels nice. I will return to ESO for sure.

JHartEllis · April 12

Definitely looks like a scary beast I would be calling the guards on! Kudos on the rework.

Not sure if you're still making revisions at this point, but if it's possible to add some hair inside the ears, it would look less like a bat. Wolves (and some exceptional humans) have a lot of hair there.

Making the whole model larger made it a lot more intimidating. The tall ears were probably compensating for that a bit, and it would look a little better if they were a tad shorter (probably best still peaking above the hair, so the hair may need a trim too).

Definitely looking forward to seeing this up close on PTS soon!

coop500 · April 12

Faltasë wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

I really am a fan of the size increase on the new new design, however, I genuinely think the rest of it is an ugly design.

The more cohesive fur color to skin color thing is good. And the amount of floof is fine, but the mohawk and the face being less canine-like really bothers me. Can the devs tweak it so that it doesn't look like a hyena?

All the new werewolf reminds me of is a Gnoll from Baldurs Gate 3. At least make the face more canine-like. Plenty of people had already mentioned how to do that a couple months back during the feedback to the original new look, and it seems to have been completely ignored besides the ears(which don't really matter much in terms of helping it not look like a Gnoll)

I agree, I don't really know what happened. It feels like the devs got hung up on the 'more fur' request, did that very weirdly (putting fur on places people weren't asking them to), made it bigger (yay!) and that was... kinda it.

Mesh work, it needs mesh work, not just more fur slapped around.

Fur also in the wrong places too. Made it kind of look like Theo Von mullet instead of a wolf. Wolves have manes and jowl tufts... I see this and just instantly get reminded of a Gnoll. Since they have no manes and in BG3 straight up have hair more like mohawks.

I'm not sure where they went wrong either because the concept art slaps so hard, but the execution, at least from the angle they've provided, leaves a lot to be desired.

Yeah it's so weird how they added fur to the wrong places, places that either didn't need it or already had plenty, but not in the places that DID need it.

We could probably write a book about all the things it needs changed, I think MaverickWerewolf's post on the 1st page (#9) is one of the best things they could refer to, but... man.
And yeah I shared the concept here earlier because I feel like more casual folks didn't see it, and hopefully it shows a better understanding of why those of us who did see it are disappointed.

ViggyBoi · April 12

Honestly? I don't really get the hate, I was ok with the first model though I do admit more fur was and is welcome. The second pass here? I think its really cool. I'm seeing lots of complaints regarding the "mohawk" but I kind of always assumed that those were meant to be canine hackles and I thought they were cool highlighting the whole aggression peaking aspect of the werewolf. The bigger size is too a welcome change. I feel like maybe the images themselves don't really do the best job at selling the new model and I feel like maybe if we see it in game opinions might change. Not saying things are perfect nor ideal but I think this is far from "the wrong direction."

I kinda always assumed the partial fur thing was an intentional and consistent design choice when it came to Elder Scrolls werewolves. Its a visual sell to the fact that you are not in fact a full wolf but a man who spontaneously grew tons of hair across your body. Whether you like that design aspect or not, it does appear in other TES games and even the current live werewolf model, its just more noticeable with this one because of how much more detailed it is.

Real question shouldn't be why the new werewolf model has less fur but why the werewolf behemoths are fully covered if anything.

ViggyBoi · April 12

MaverickWerewolf wrote: »

FIX THOSE SAGGING, WEAK, NARROW SHOULDERS.

The model is A-posing. The shoulders are going to sag because they are effectively at rest.

coop500 · April 12

ViggyBoi wrote: »

Honestly? I don't really get the hate, I was ok with the first model though I do admit more fur was and is welcome. The second pass here? I think its really cool. I'm seeing lots of complaints regarding the "mohawk" but I kind of always assumed that those were meant to be canine hackles and I thought they were cool highlighting the whole aggression peaking aspect of the werewolf. The bigger size is too a welcome change. I feel like maybe the images themselves don't really do the best job at selling the new model and I feel like maybe if we see it in game opinions might change. Not saying things are perfect nor ideal but I think this is far from "the wrong direction."

I kinda always assumed the partial fur thing was an intentional and consistent design choice when it came to Elder Scrolls werewolves. Its a visual sell to the fact that you are not in fact a full wolf but a man who spontaneously grew tons of hair across your body. Whether you like that design aspect or not, it does appear in other TES games and even the current live werewolf model, its just more noticeable with this one because of how much more detailed it is.

Real question shouldn't be why the new werewolf model has less fur but why the werewolf behemoths are fully covered if anything.

The fur isn't the only problem, and I'd argue to say it's a pretty low problem. The issue is that it has a friendly, derpy face with short spindly arms, and YES the shoulders are sagging really bad, you can see the difference between it and the old model, who's shoulders are more square.

It also has weird spindy legs with raptor toes and looks like a bird in the leg department, like a chicken.

And the ears are this weird half and half, not wolflike, but not on the side of the head, just giving it a funky bat look instead.

People deserve to be passionate about the model being as best as it can be, because after update 50, we're never getting changes to it again. I know people hold optimism that we're going to have all these different skillstyles and models for everyone's tastes, but let's be realistic: That's not happening. I'd be surprised if we even get more recolors after the primary 3.

Ruhlf · April 12

@ZOS_Erin

Huzzah! The updated model is indeed an improvement. Thank you Dev Team for listening. I’m excited to see all the new animations as well (:

The increased size was a lovely surprise on top of the other changes made. I’m digging what I’m seeing!

My two biggest requests for further model tweaks would be:

-More wolf-like ears please. They still feel a bit too large and too pointy. Their large size makes the head feel small. Smaller ears will make the skull feel larger and more menacing. Rotated a bit back would be cool too.

-As others have suggested, (like @argyro), perhaps bring a little fur to the back of the jaw, to reduce the full “Mohawk” look. But not so much fur that it looks like werewolf muttonchops. A tough balance I’m sure, and a change I’m less invested in. (Ears are the big one for me).

Thank you again! The work done is noted and appreciated (:

UntilValhalla13 · April 12

WIP is 10 times better looking. The other is just kinda derpy looking. It reminds me of the hyenas from the lion king or something. I can't put my finger on it.

Mathius_Mordred · April 12

Erickson9610 wrote: »

@ZOS_Erin

Will PvE encounters like March of Sacrifices or the Lord Hollowjack boss fight during the Witches Festival be modified to allow Werewolves who are Prowling to function like players who are stealthed?

It's particularly frustrating in March of Sacrifices when you can't interact with the hunting wisps in Werewolf form unless you do the side content, which itself requires you to interact with the hunting wisps.

Please make start-to-finish Werewolf only runs of March of Sacrifices possible!

I came here to ask this too. It's ironic that in a dungeon about werewolves you can't play it as a werewolf because you can't crouch and remain hidden, especially during the Indrik fight. So the new prowl should invoke the hidden status so that we can play in these events and dungeons. The rest look epic.

tohopka_eso · April 12

ViggyBoi wrote: »

Honestly? I don't really get the hate, I was ok with the first model though I do admit more fur was and is welcome. The second pass here? I think its really cool. I'm seeing lots of complaints regarding the "mohawk" but I kind of always assumed that those were meant to be canine hackles and I thought they were cool highlighting the whole aggression peaking aspect of the werewolf. The bigger size is too a welcome change. I feel like maybe the images themselves don't really do the best job at selling the new model and I feel like maybe if we see it in game opinions might change. Not saying things are perfect nor ideal but I think this is far from "the wrong direction."

I kinda always assumed the partial fur thing was an intentional and consistent design choice when it came to Elder Scrolls werewolves. Its a visual sell to the fact that you are not in fact a full wolf but a man who spontaneously grew tons of hair across your body. Whether you like that design aspect or not, it does appear in other TES games and even the current live werewolf model, its just more noticeable with this one because of how much more detailed it is.

Real question shouldn't be why the new werewolf model has less fur but why the werewolf behemoths are fully covered if anything.

I agree with you 100%. I think the problem lies is what people envision a werewolf to look like. I've watched more werewolf movies over the decades and I can see how artist like to make them. My favorite looking werewolf is from Dog Soldiers. The Howling franchise had a lot of up and down versions.

Then there was the Lupine from Harry Potter, to the wolfman like appearance with Universal studio's. My interpretation was that the wolf appearance usually kept some of the human (and in this case Mer as well) appearance.

I really don't see any problems with the images we were shown but they are just images in a rendering. Maybe if @ZOS_Erin could include a short video on the work so far it might alleviate some things. Just my opinion though.

As I mentioned earlier what I am seeing is making me want to give my old werewolf spec another try though.

Sheylin · April 12

Love these new fluffy weredoggos.

Tyrobag · April 12

Can we please, please, please - Please- remove the mohawk?

Fenrir_Legacy · April 12

New hair looks like those no cap fr fr memes.

Faltasë · April 12

Tyrobag wrote: »

Can we please, please, please - Please- remove the mohawk?

It's not a mohawk, it's a mullet.

dmel25 · April 12

Faltasë wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

Can we please, please, please - Please- remove the mohawk?

It's not a mohawk, it's a mullet.

I guess technically since it goes down the back it is more a mullet LOL, either way I really wish they would tone it down.

This feels like a weird monkey paw, we asked for more fur and devs went, "More fur? We got you!" and made the mohawk/mullet bigger. Like NO! We wanted more fur in other places to balance out the mohawk/mullet that was already there!

C_Inside · April 12

I really hate how the latest werewolf model looks to be honest. It doesn't look like a werewolf to me. It instead looks like Andre the Giant wearing a wolf pelt and sporting a mullet. It doesn't look mean or imposing to me at all. The model looks like it's stretched vertically and It's just really uncanny.

The current model on the live server looks goofy, and this new one looks ugly. It isn't an upgrade imo, it's a side-grade at most. A pointless waste of a designer's time that doesn't actually make werewolf form any cooler or more appealing visually.

For contrast, here's what a Werewolf from a game called Altered Beast on the PS2 looks like:

Look how much cooler and more menacing it looks. Why is it that a werewolf from a 20 year old, D-tier PS2 game that no one knows about and that was made on a shoestring budget looks better than that one we'll be getting. It's really not a good look for the design team at ZOS.

Syldras · April 12

Since shoulders were mentioned several times: A humanoid's shoulders are at the height of its collarbone. So basically here:

That creature doesn't have rounded or saggging shoulders; everything above that line is not shoulders, but the wolf just has a huge bull neck.

And if that neck would be reduced, you'd have the typical triangular torso shape again:

Now if those shoulders are broad enough of not, I have no opinion on that. Proportions don't look much different than on the old model, though.

What I do find weird is the hairstyle and those hair tufts on its forehead.

Soarora · April 12

C_Inside wrote: »

I really hate how the latest werewolf model looks to be honest. It doesn't look like a werewolf to me. It instead looks like Andre the Giant wearing a wolf pelt and sporting a mullet. It doesn't look mean or imposing to me at all. The model looks like it's stretched vertically and It's just really uncanny.

The current model on the live server looks goofy, and this new one looks ugly. It isn't an upgrade imo, it's a side-grade at most. A pointless waste of a designer's time that doesn't actually make werewolf form any cooler or more appealing visually.

For contrast, here's what a Werewolf from a game called Altered Beast on the PS2 looks like:
[cut for size of message]

Look how much cooler and more menacing it looks. Why is it that a werewolf from a 20 year old, D-tier PS2 game that no one knows about and that was made on a shoestring budget looks better than that one we'll be getting. It's really not a good look for the design team at ZOS.

I... disagree. I do not like that model at all. The hair doesn't make any sense.

I like the back mane situation we're getting but I don't think I need it. Still reserving full judgement until I see it in-game since this is in an A-pose, I just think the hair on the top of the head and the ear length is odd.

As for tail commentors, this is an A-pose... it looks short and fluffy because you're looking at it head-on. I'm sure it'll look less fluffy when you see it from the side.

IncultaWolf · April 12

@ZOS_Erin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

The new model is a huge improvement over what we had before and I love all the combat changes + size increase, but there are a lot of other people in this thread that share similar opinions about the appearance, specifically the fur patches on the forehead and the hair. I personally think the ears need to be slightly shortened as well to be less bat like which is something I've seen other players mention as well.

This is probably the last time the model will ever get adjusted and I'm really glad werewolf players can come together to agree on an appearance. I know it's not easy to please everyone and I appreciate the devs listening and implementing feedback on this!

couriersix · April 12

I think the new model looks good so far but I do have to agree about the hair. ESO + TES already has werewolves which look quite good, including the werewolf behemoth and the classic Skyrim werewolf model, which should serve as guidelines for the fur to be consistent with what we've already seen.

On both of these, there is no dew claw (though I understand it might be a bit late in development to remove that, and the werewolves in Morrowind/Blood Moon have a dew claw so it's not a huge deal), and the hackles/mane are pushed back further rather than standing up. I also do think that cheek fur would help with a more wolf-ish appearance, and maybe some fur on the shoulders for a more full and broader look without entirely changing the shape of the model.

MaverickWerewolf · April 13

I am sorry I tried to bring up literally any specifics about the shoulders and build. I actually do not care at all what the problem or non-problem is with the shoulders or what the particulars of the anatomy are. Whatever that is simply does not look good, no matter what the breakdown and explanation and whatever. I'm sorry, I don't want to sound dismissive of anyone, but I also feel as if I've been dismissed because of some particulars of anatomy, and that is definitely not what I mean/am concerned about. I'm just concerned about the design and how it looks, at the end of the day, not "why" something looks the way it does.

Frankly, it looks awful, and they should make it look more menacing and powerful. Regardless of the nitty-gritty, it looks narrow and silly with its current build and body shape, and it needs work. And I have played video games since the early 90s, so yes, I do know how models and poses work; it will not look any better in-game, either.

Here are some random grabs of assorted video game werewolves:

(yes, I know this is a wolf man and I know those are hated here, but the point of the build still stands; he actually looks scarier and more wolfish than that WIP model, too, lol)

Notice how broad-shouldered and V-tapered these are, to make them look powerful and menacing. This new werewolf model does not have that, and it makes it look bad and silly.

I appreciate the abs and I appreciate the size increase, but the shoulders need to be addressed.

I just hope this will happen and we don't end up with this model, because it simply doesn't look good or well done artistically.

I agree that I liked the concept art much better than what we are ending up with.