Werewolf Update From The Combat Refresh Team

MaverickWerewolf · April 10

Lycan_Dragonborne wrote: »

I think it's less that the shoulders are sagging and more the trapezius muscles are more noticeable on the new model. I'm not in-game at the moment, but from the comparison pictures, I think if you adjusted the current model's head position to match the new model's, the profiles would be pretty close.
I do think filling out the deltoids a bit more would go well toward balancing the proportions though. The overall impression I get is more 'powerlifter' than 'bodybuilder', which would make sense.

I disagree; the traps being noticeable does not equate to the shoulders themselves, in structure, being narrower and weaker and being so sloped. The model can have a longer neck and more muscle without the shoulders ending up downright narrower and so rounded. Frankly, I always thought the shoulders even on the original model were MUCH too narrow, anyway. This new one shouldn't somehow make it even worse.

The shoulder issue is unrelated to the amount of muscle; it's about the werewolf's bones and frame. The shoulders as they are right now are much narrower than they should be, and also sloped, and make the werewolf look weak.

The head stance is forward, yes, and it is rounding out the shoulders with his head in kind of forward posture, but if this is the T-pose, you know it will still look like that in-game. I'm not talking about its stance; I'm talking about the actual structure of the model.

The shoulders are narrow; that's all there is to it. The werewolf's shoulders should be broad, strong, and powerful, not looking like they do in this model run.

His shoulders just need to be broader. Full stop. The whole model would look infinitely better if they were.

I really, really hope they revisit it... It makes the werewolf look very weak. I think the muscle (including the abs, which are great), etc, is fine right now, really.

I honestly don't want a roided up werewolf anyway. When werewolves get TOO muscular, it starts looking pretty silly, imo. I don't want to be The Hulk. I like a lean, powerful, lanky muscular look (Skyrim is a decent example), although yes with abs too, more than a thicker and therefore stockier-looking pile of muscles.

And yeah, I have other complaints like how weird the fur looks and everything I mentioned - but the shoulders are the real dealbreaker to me.

Ataskir · April 10

huskandhunger wrote: »

Initial first thought: please give a haircut to the Mohawk hair on top of the head

Leave my funny werewolf mohawk alone!!

It might look better anyways when it’s animated and not in an A pose. We’ll see real soon.

WerewolfMoonHunter · April 10

I see an improvement but I would try to re-work face and fix the haircut a bit

dark_hunterxmg · April 10

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

@ZOS_Erin

Please make start-to-finish Werewolf only runs of March of Sacrifices possible!

When I started playing ESO, I went all in werewolf style. I went into MoS as a werewolf and ended up getting kicked after a while. Does ZOS really want new players to get kick from dungeons just because they are werewolves?

March of Sacrifices is one of the two upcoming Solo Dungeons, so now is the right time to inquire about Werewolf's new "sneaking" mechanic in relation to the werewolf dungeon.

This is good feedback. The rework should be improving how well werewolf plays. I'm surprised at how much talk there is about the look. While I understand wanting to look super cool, if it doesn't play well looking cool isn't going to do much for us. I swish they would have been more specific about the changes like they were with DK.

coop500 · April 10

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

@ZOS_Erin

Please make start-to-finish Werewolf only runs of March of Sacrifices possible!

When I started playing ESO, I went all in werewolf style. I went into MoS as a werewolf and ended up getting kicked after a while. Does ZOS really want new players to get kick from dungeons just because they are werewolves?

March of Sacrifices is one of the two upcoming Solo Dungeons, so now is the right time to inquire about Werewolf's new "sneaking" mechanic in relation to the werewolf dungeon.

This is good feedback. The rework should be improving how well werewolf plays. I'm surprised at how much talk there is about the look. While I understand wanting to look super cool, if it doesn't play well looking cool isn't going to do much for us. I swish they would have been more specific about the changes like they were with DK.

Well we can't much talk about how it plays since we don't have enough information to judge, so looks is all we can fairly judge right now.
When the 13th comes around, I'm sure we'll all start discussing mechanics too.

argyro · April 11

i'm glad the team is taking feedback on the visuals into account and are making changes and so far they do look better, but if we're going for a big model upgrade, i feel like the face still just doesn't read as a were-wolf. i think adding a little extra fluff around the upper cheeks would go a LONG way to give it that signature square face shape wolves have, especially if we're keeping the mohawk hair on top. something kind of like this (just a quick edit to kind of show what i mean, maybe not this intense but just for the sake of getting a visual), which would also make it look a bit more similar to the cinematic werewolves we're all huge fans of while not having too big an impact on the runtime.

(screenshot)

(edit)

zenonuk · April 11

All in all, loving it! Everything is a much better improvement. Great work on the initial redesign, and MASSIVE kudos for listening to requests for improvement. Great work team x

However... what is it with those bat ears? It was noted first time around, everyone above has mentioned it again. Does nobody have a rounding pencil anywhere? That's the one thing that's niggling me. I'm hoping when we see them in action it's less noticeable (do they flap a lot?), and it's just a bad model presentation that's drawing that out.

And yes I'd love more fur, but I struggle to find enough people to meet my need IRL, so I'll take whatever I can get

zenonuk · April 11

Ataskir wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Initial first thought: please give a haircut to the Mohawk hair on top of the head

Leave my funny werewolf mohawk alone!!

It might look better anyways when it’s animated and not in an A pose. We’ll see real soon.

100% agree - all my WW's are Nords - and all my Nords have Mohawks... for my toons it's perfect. Can't please everyone.

That said, on a more serious note, I would love (as many have noted before) for elements of the outfit system (or skill styles?, whatever tech works) to be adopted by the WW (and Vamp) sub-systems to allow us greater styling. There are some of us who'd like to RP more and not look like everyone else

But on balance, I'm looking forward to the update... in the round it's great improvement.

TheDragonMeister · April 11

Why in the bigger model is the tail so short? Please make the tail longer, I can't do werewolves with nub tails. Also remove dew claw, adjust shoulders to be more muscular, make face more wolf as it's too narrow.

TheRoamingSpirit · April 11

The ability improvements sound great however. There is some things about the new model I'm not fond of. When I think of werewolves appearance I do not see dewclaws or short tails. Not to be negative but it looks more like a fluffy Doberman rather than a wolf. Please adjust the model so we actually get the visual appearance of a Werewolf.
Longer tail, broad muscular shoulders, round face, and no dewclaws.

Erickson9610 · April 11

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

Also remove dew claw

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

When I think of werewolves appearance I do not see dewclaws

I think the dew claws on the Werewolf make sense.

Real-life wolves do not have the dew claws on their hind paws, but rather only on their front paws. However, humans have five toes and five fingers per foot/hand.

So, a combination of human and wolf might see the dew claw (an iconic part of a real-life wolf) integrated somewhere, and since the werewolf form already has five fingers on each hand, it makes sense to let the feet have five toes as well via the dew claws.

FoolishOptimist · April 11

Will WW be able to pick up Chaosballs in Battlegrounds? So many times I’ve mauled a carrier and not been able to collect the ball. It makes me feel like such a hindrance to my team!

Lycanthrope1997 · April 11

Erickson9610 wrote: »

TheDragonMeister wrote: »

Also remove dew claw

TheRoamingSpirit wrote: »

When I think of werewolves appearance I do not see dewclaws

I think the dew claws on the Werewolf make sense.

Real-life wolves do not have the dew claws on their hind paws, but rather only on their front paws. However, humans have five toes and five fingers per foot/hand.

So, a combination of human and wolf might see the dew claw (an iconic part of a real-life wolf) integrated somewhere, and since the werewolf form already has five fingers on each hand, it makes sense to let the feet have five toes as well via the dew claws.

Wolf Dog Hybrids could have dew claws but yes pure wolves don't.

Ataskir · April 11

I like the dewclaws personally. Gives it that morrowind werewolf look.

luckiestlycan · April 11

I like what I'm hearing, but what I'm seeing is still a bit off imo too.

I don't remember anyone complaining about how fluffy the tail was, though ofc I could just not have seen it, because tbh for me the tail looked perfect as it was.

Additionally, I think instead of making the back more fuller of fur, those extra hair cards would have been preferred and better used spread over the shoulders.

The seeming use of more hair cards on the head is the most off putting though, one of the primary complaints before was how Hyena it was looking due to the Mohawk, and now it looks like an even bigger Mohawk than before.

Any other gripes I could have are minor tbh, I like most of what else I'm seeing, I just hope the fur can be messed with a bit more before PTS or atleast before launch, I'm not in the party of wanting it covered in fur (Not my cup of tea) but I do agree that it should spread out across the shoulders more.

(Also an added note, I also like how the ears and dew claws are, just adding that to the equation of current topics)

Super excited about the height change, hopefully 20% is enough, because oh boy were we short before.

The new Prowl & Slaughter system is fun to hear, though I really hope this comes with March of Sacrifices compatibility! For a dungeon that has Werewolf exclusive boons, it's very antithetical to actually playing a Werewolf.

Also, I must address this as from what I've read no one else has??? We're getting an in werewolf ultimate??? That's awesome! I genuinely didn't think we'd ever get that, that's so cool to hear, finally my accidental ult usage won't make me human again XD (I assume)

I will also say though, Werewolf being indefinite outside of combat is something I'll have to see in game, though I can definitely see why I'd like it; I agree with your initial reason for it being still on a timer. I like Werewolf form being a fast destructive form, meant for the slaughter and hunt, and I do think the timer added to that and for that reason I will miss it not being in effect outside of combat. But I can obvs see how it's more beneficial to be able to maintain it without cost mechanically, and even for Roleplayers, I just don't think that change is my cup of tea tbh.

Contraptions · April 11

It needs to look a bit more v-tapered, wider shoulders and muscular. Tail also seems a bit short now. Other than that I think it's mostly fine. Hell, make diff builds choosable like skill styles or something.

Spin · April 11

It sucks liking fantasy games and being a biologist at the same time, some creature designs are either too cartoony or miss small things (proportion/detail-wise) that would make a huge difference, immersion speaking. But that's just me I guess. I've already told my feedback, I hope it's heard. Werewolves don't always need to have "Monsters Design Tropes".

Vaqual · April 11

I have to agree with most posters here, that haircut is very particular. It takes away from the sleek predator aesthetic. The grain of the hair should be following the direction of motion, not stand at an angle to it. Except if Hircine is also the Prince of hair spray, I didn't check up on the lore there.

Dimorphos · April 11

After this official post about upcoming changes to werewolf for the first time I feel like I might be enjoying playing as a wolf. I am actually just now creating a new character that will be solely focused on being a werewolf. There are a lot of changes coming that has long been wished for by the community and by myself just recently (like form not drained while out-of-combat and making it easier to maintain the form). It really feels like you are listening to us. Also that ultimate not being used only for the form upkeep but it will also work as a power tool to give you the "sixth skill" to use, I wished for something like this also. Super-wonderful news indeed !

Edit: I will keep my hopes up that you will one day make a similar rework for vampire too.

Xarico · April 11

Excited about all gameplay changes outlined here and the increased model size. Logging in for the first time in years to express my appreciation!

I also do happen to enjoy the long ears, they look far more uncanny and intimidating than the actual wolf ears would.

Agree with another player above - it would be really great if you could take another look at the vampire mechanics and visuals with the same mindset that seems to be guiding this werewolf rework.

tohopka_eso · April 11

Almost close to this I think. and found one with spikey hair LOL.

Elvenheart · April 11

argyro wrote: »

i'm glad the team is taking feedback on the visuals into account and are making changes and so far they do look better, but if we're going for a big model upgrade, i feel like the face still just doesn't read as a were-wolf. i think adding a little extra fluff around the upper cheeks would go a LONG way to give it that signature square face shape wolves have, especially if we're keeping the mohawk hair on top. something kind of like this (just a quick edit to kind of show what i mean, maybe not this intense but just for the sake of getting a visual), which would also make it look a bit more similar to the cinematic werewolves we're all huge fans of while not having too big an impact on the runtime.

(screenshot)
(edit)

The fluff on the side of the face definitely does make the fluff on top of the head look better and less like a mohawk.

Malyore · April 11

Vaqual wrote: »

I have to agree with most posters here, that haircut is very particular. It takes away from the sleek predator aesthetic. The grain of the hair should be following the direction of motion, not stand at an angle to it. Except if Hircine is also the Prince of hair spray, I didn't check up on the lore there.

Close, the Daedric Prince of hairspray is actually Ithelia

Nahlot_Sunvaar · April 11

Would have been nice to have more combat related information, considering that is the main issue with werewolves, and has been for the last several patches, but I guess we will wait and see when the PTS is live, but the gain of an ultimate seems like a good start.

dmel25 · April 11

ZOS_Erin wrote: »

Greetings! The Combat Refresh team would like to give a quick update on what to expect for the Werewolf refresh coming to the PTS next week. We’ve been hard at work making sure it’s up to snuff and we’re very excited to let you sink your teeth into all the new stuff that’s been updated! To recap, here is what to expect with the Werewolf refresh that we’ve already brought up through previous developer streams and reveals:
Two new Werewolf models, one male and one female. Female characters will automatically use the new female model.

New animations, visual effects, and sound effects for almost every Werewolf action including but not limited to:
Locomotion (movement, jumping, etc)

Core combat mechanics (Block, Roll Dodge, etc)

Abilities

A new ability tied to your Ultimate to cast while in Werewolf form, which lets you unleash the beast for a duration and grants a handful of stark power bonuses

A completely overhauled way to manage and sustain Werewolf form, now using Ultimate to both activate and sustain the form. Ultimate is now enabled and heavily awarded through certain Werewolf actions and overall you will find it significantly easier to maintain Werewolf form in most cases.

And two new mechanics we’ve added, named “Prowl” and “Slaughter” - which we’ll touch loosely on, but we want you to go on the hunt and sniff them out yourself!
Slaughter is a synergy-based ability, operating similarly to things like Blade of Woe or Vampire’s Feed

Prowl is a mechanic override for Crouch, which is designed to help utilize Slaughter more regularly, as well as a tool to help you hunt those who would prefer to remain hidden. Your nose knows! While this is not ‘true’ Crouch or Stealth, we hope that Werewolves appreciate the chance to be a bit more sneaky.

When we first showed off the updated model for the Werewolf, we saw a lot of positive feedback with some reservations that largely boiled down to three core criticisms: the size and bulk of the model, the mangy appearance of the model, and the methods of sustaining Werewolf form. Based on that feedback, we’ve made some notable adjustments to try and improve the Werewolf refresh. Some of the most noteworthy adjustments are:
Increased the size of the model by roughly 20%, making it substantially larger. This will ensure that you loom over normal player characters and humanoid enemies.

Adjusted and added more fur to the model based on feedback that noted how the previous iteration felt like it was mottled and bare.
There is more fur coverage overall along the back, shoulders, and forehead.

The tail is now bigger, floofier, and blends better into the fur on the Werewolf’s back.

The fur along the spine now covers more area, helping to add some extra size and aura.

There are performance constraints that we had to work within in regards to adding more fur to the model. While we know that some of you really wanted to see a model completely covered in fur, we cannot match the fur coverage from the Werewolf’s cinematic design due to run-time limitations.

The color of the skin now more closely matches the color of the fur and the fur now blends more seamlessly into the remaining areas where there is exposed skin.

While we didn’t go into all the details of sustaining Werewolf form in any of our reveals, we did see a lot of discussion around the cost out of combat. After pawing with the idea for a while, we’ve made the cost of sustaining Werewolf out of combat a nonfactor (it is now completely free instead of being reduced by 75%).
The cost was originally part of an intentional gameplay design that tried to enforce the need to constantly be on the hunt. Hircine will not be entertained unless the chase continues, after all. This pressure helped lean into the fantasy that Werewolves are fast, aggressive creatures that need combat to maintain their form – but ultimately the reality of gameplay clashed with this, creating more experiences of frustration than highlighting the positive sensations we wanted.

Lastly, on the note of another larger topic we’ve seen for Werewolves, crouch and stealth. This is something we’re not adding to the Werewolf in the traditional sense, as there’s a lot more than meets the eye with getting those systems to function and be supported between content interaction, blending every unique animation (and having those animations be loaded in Cyrodiil, which cuts into how many unique animations we can make for other classes), and a handful of other things. It’s also something that we’re not keen on enabling for balance or identity’s sake – we want to keep Werewolves direct, imposing, and terrifying as they rip apart their foes – which means we need to keep messaging clear and readable for PvP while focusing on the big and loud. Prowl is our compromise to this difference of desire and intent, as it lets you get some sneak-adjacent benefits by making you harder to detect by monsters, which was mainly done to ensure you can actively use the new Slaughter synergy.

That about wraps up the coverage of what we’ve directly changed based on your feedback we heard between our reveal for the Werewolf and what’s coming in PTS 1. There’s still plenty more to discover that we haven’t discussed, but we want to make sure we leave some meat on the bone for you when PTS rolls around. As always, we’ll continue to monitor your feedback as you get to experience it firsthandpaw throughout the PTS and launch. Thank you as always for your time, passion, and support in making Elder Scrolls together. See you in Tamriel!

I am loving what I am hearing about the changes to the *gameplay* of the werewolf, and I like that the model is bigger, thank you so much!

With that said, the model is still abysmal. We DO NOT WANT that mohawk look, it looks so dumb. Someone mentioned that maybe it is just because this a still and it will look different in-game with animations, but the weird mohawk needs to go or be severally toned down. We don't need fully furred werewolves, but the giant mohawk down the back is ridiculous looking.

Techwolf_Lupindo · April 11

huskandhunger wrote: »

Initial first thought: please give a haircut to the Mohawk hair on top of the head

Here is a thought.

Remove the mohawk and sell it in the crown store. Would love to have werewolf options for looks. Hairstyles, or furstyles in this case, would be a good crown store item.

Erickson9610 · April 11

Techwolf_Lupindo wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Initial first thought: please give a haircut to the Mohawk hair on top of the head

Here is a thought.

Remove the mohawk and sell it in the crown store. Would love to have werewolf options for looks. Hairstyles, or furstyles in this case, would be a good crown store item.

I would love to get things like Adornments, Markings, and so on to customize the Werewolf form. However, we are getting Skill Styles instead, so hopefully we get some Skill Styles which come with minor modifications like these.

Vraedlich · April 11

The thing is they first showed us the concept art, which looked awesome. Then the 3D model which looked nothing like it.
It still has giant bat/rat ears, not even remotely wolf like.
The "hairstyle" looks designed to appeal to 12 year old fortnite players.
Obviously it is a talented artist who had created it, who wanted to put their own flare on it.
People just want a werewolf looking werewolf.
At the end of the day the day ends.

Ataskir · April 11

dmel25 wrote: »

With that said, the model is still abysmal. We DO NOT WANT that mohawk look, it looks so dumb. Someone mentioned that maybe it is just because this a still and it will look different in-game with animations, but the weird mohawk needs to go or be severally toned down. We don't need fully furred werewolves, but the giant mohawk down the back is ridiculous looking.

We? Who’s we? The mohawk fits my Nord perfectly who also has a mohawk, so it’s pretty good to me.

Also the mane going down the back is honestly one of my favorite parts of this new model. Makes em look really wild! It could use a few touch ups, but honestly I’m pretty happy with what I’m seeing here. Hopefully we get a decent amount of skill styles in the future so everyone can have a WW look they can enjoy.

Enemoriana · April 11

"We can't add much more fur because of technical reasons, so we will add longer fur where nobody asked, oh, there is nothing left for bald places, they will stay so."
Please, transplant some fur from mohawk and back to better places.

And I very-very hope mohawk and those silly pointed ears will be not so ridiculous in correct pose.

However, it really look better than first version. There is a lot of things that can be improved, but at least It doesn't look sick and mangy now. Not yet something I will want to play, but now it is not a thing I would strongly avoid.