YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Their point is that live service games are not Mesozoic mosquitoes encased in amber. They change, are required to change, if they are to survive.

This is not about change per se, it's about the direction of change: more cartoony, as the OP put it. Why erode the ES aesthetics with flashy, over-the-top visuals that don't have a place in it? I tell you why: lack of confidence in a unique aesthetic despite it belonging to a proven IP. Instead they think the best bet is to sell what other games are selling.

Some may be able handwave improbable things away as "celestial" or "magic", but when a significant proportion of the game is neon pink and purple (we already have the pink ball Accursed Recall from 2024), ESO no longer looks anything like the Elder Scrolls of the past few decades.

As I had mentioned, some evolution is expected - I was fine with a few exploding mounts or a few bright celestial things from the previous years, but they're absolutely ubiquitous now. Obnoxiously bright collectibles and skills are everywhere. This is no longer the Elder Scrolls.

Not everything that is popular in our world needs to be incorporated into ESO to make money. Otherwise I suppose we will have rap songs in taverns and memes on posters to look forward to in the years to come? (We already have Sharp saying "skill issue", so I guess we're closer than we know).

I think that folks' first mistakes were treating ESO as somehow being comparable to a mainline game.

The entire conceit of shoehorning an MMO into the franchise under the hackneyed guise of, "It's all a Dragonbreak, bro, so like, we can ALL be the Vestige and ANYTHING can happen without it impacting anything else!" is/was just such an obvious hand-wave that like, yeah, obviously we cannot take the lore or in-game events as seriously as we can in a regular single-player game.

You see this in the many non-canonical classes and loan-words from the real Earth world that somehow also appear in Tamriel, a land with no historical antecedents or connection to our own. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Honestly, what IS the Symphony of Blades and why do we have no complaints about fighting it in the Malatar dungeon but then suddenly cannot abide the silly horse based upon it? They are both silly daedra things. Same for the Celestial Mage. Why do some of us laugh at Sheogorath "cheese" jokes that break the Fourth Wall but chafe at an NPC calling themselves a "tank"? These all feel like very arbitrary lines to draw in the sand.

IMO, it begins and ends with "I do not care for the aesthetics", which is fair enough. But lore and "realism" should be left completely out of the discussion because that went out the window as soon as the game went live a decade ago.

SilverBride wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Some may be able handwave improbable things away as "celestial" or "magic", but when a significant proportion of the game is neon pink and purple (we already have the pink ball Accursed Recall from 2024), ESO no longer looks anything like the Elder Scrolls of the past few decades.

As I had mentioned, some evolution is expected - I was fine with a few exploding mounts or a few bright celestial things from the previous years, but they're absolutely ubiquitous now. Obnoxiously bright collectibles and skills are everywhere. This is no longer the Elder Scrolls.

Not everything that is popular in our world needs to be incorporated into ESO to make money. Otherwise I suppose we will have rap songs in taverns and memes on posters to look forward to in the years to come? (We already have Sharp saying "skill issue", so I guess we're closer than we know).

I can't seem to find it, but recently there was a thread about how an NPC referred to themself as a "tank".

I don't want to lose ESO but we are drifting running farther and farther away from it.

That was one of the hearts week quests. You help solve some group dynamics issues with what is basically a representation of a dungeon group. All roles were represented iirc. The tank, a healer and a couple dps. You help each person in turn. I guess I saw it as a cute 4th wall thing about friends who play the game but ymmv.

Muizer wrote: »

This is not about change per se, it's about the direction of change: more cartoony, as the OP put it. Why erode the ES aesthetics with flashy, over-the-top visuals that don't have a place in it? I tell you why: lack of confidence in a unique aesthetic despite it belonging to a proven IP. Instead they think the best bet is to sell what other games are selling.

Oh my goodness -THIS. It's always easier (and faster) to copy what others are doing than it is to develop or improve what you already have, especially if you look at what you have in comparison and think it is somehow "old-fashioned'.

ESO, indeed all TES, aesthetics are specific. The colors are a bit muted, the scenery often breathtaking, and the general vibe fantasy fake-quasi-European-way-back-then. It is recognizable. The game world, the people inhabiting the game world, all were created with a particular concept. Yes, there was magic, of course there was magic. And sometimes magic is flashy and colorful. That's kind of the point of magic in an otherwise natural world - it's just enough out of the norm to be noticeable. But it wasn't overtly eye-searing and so unnatural. People didn't show up in costumes highly reminiscent of feather-bedecked Las Vegas showgirl dancers because that culture did not exist; a newcomer NPC's costume reflected their far off home and you knew where that was if you spoke to them. Fast travel did not include sudden strobe bright flashes of light and very loud noises. Mounts, even magical mounts, did not usually glow so brightly or harshly that the very outlines of their bodies were barely visible.

Freshening up a mature game should not need to copycat what others in the industry is doing. Believe it or not, there are plenty of gamers for all types of game to go around.

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I was not disagreeing on your points, I just wanted to specify exactly the point that seemed to create confusion between the two terms, giving references to understand what people generally mean when they use them.
And as I expressed, I agree with the rest

Ah, okay

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I never said Devs don't love TES. My question was more "are they willing to defend TES as we know it against the idea of: follow trends = profit?" I'LL VOLUNTARILY EXAGGERATE HERE with something impossibile, but I'd prefer ESO to vanish in the void than seeing it put in the cash shop Barbie or Homer Simpson skins. We know this will never happen. My question remains: where is the limit set in maintaining TES DNA and how much are Devs willing to give up?
And to be honest, I say Devs but could very well be just marketing team or "Corpo Leaders".

The big question I have been wondering about is how much ESO is considered art by the people who create it (or the ones who have a say about the direction, at least), and how much just some commercial consumer product. I think it makes a big difference. While art is more (not entirely anymore, as there are also artists who are more commercially-minded) about the artist's personal idea and style, and the focus is on the artwork how it is meant to be, a consumer product is much less "stable" and can be altered to the consumers' wished at all times, without thinking much about preserving the original idea.

Of course ESO is also a commercial product, the studio needs to gain revenue, that is clear. I personally think it would be important to find a balance - to be able to be commercially successful, while not completely giving up the game's essential idea and style. But the people in charge might view that completely differently.

But even from the purely financial standpoint one could wonder how much sense it makes to water down such a well-known and specific franchise like TES. I, personally, believe that TES style by itself could already be very successful, without a need to bend to all kinds of other trends. From my point of view, uniqueness itself can be an advantage. Then again, ESO's marketing people will surely have all kinds of stats to see what sells well and what not, of course.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Every cosmetic has a tooltip that explains the lore behind it, and thus does connect it to the lore.

There's masses of flavor texts that show no lore connection whatsoever apart from randomly dropping some location name and claiming that this was the place the creature was bred in, whether it makes any sense according to the broader already established lore or not. Or have you ever seen the Telvanni mushroom horse anywhere in Telvanni regions? Or ever heard any npc there mentioning experiments about creating mushroom animal hybrids? Of course not.

SilverBride wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

This is literally the first place I've seen people complaining about the 2H effects so I'm sure you're being hyperbolic with "so much distress".

It's mentioned in other threads, and it is causing me distress because I can't play my DK now because of it.

My DK is a strong Nord woman and wants to look like one rather than looking like she is wielding flashy toy weapons.

No that's what Olfina meant when she says "Can't handle the sight of a strong nord woman?" is because of all of the VFX actually makes it so we can't handle it.

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

I always thought mounts were one thing. But now there is neon pink skill style that shoot celestial fireworks of glitter. I think I discovered my limit on what is too much.

Every person I show this to asks if it is a skin, sooo... Wait for it! XD

A skin would be passable at least imo. Skill styles have been nice and a few of them actually very creative.
But what does this one have anything to do with a sorcerer? IDK, to me it feels like a step too far to alter the style completely with something else not directly related to the class. In the end I'll probably look past it but the initial shock is there.

Besides I hope they redo lightning form all together during rework and get rid of the transparency, Will be interesting how these styles evolve (or not).

Yudo wrote: »

I always thought mounts were one thing. But now there is neon pink skill style that shoot celestial fireworks of glitter. I think I discovered my limit on what is too much.

While it's not something I would use, I love my mages guild portal, it's not just something taken from nowhere. It's the celestials from the craglorn trials. So in the lore

Syldras wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I was not disagreeing on your points, I just wanted to specify exactly the point that seemed to create confusion between the two terms, giving references to understand what people generally mean when they use them.
And as I expressed, I agree with the rest

Ah, okay

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I never said Devs don't love TES. My question was more "are they willing to defend TES as we know it against the idea of: follow trends = profit?" I'LL VOLUNTARILY EXAGGERATE HERE with something impossibile, but I'd prefer ESO to vanish in the void than seeing it put in the cash shop Barbie or Homer Simpson skins. We know this will never happen. My question remains: where is the limit set in maintaining TES DNA and how much are Devs willing to give up?
And to be honest, I say Devs but could very well be just marketing team or "Corpo Leaders".

The big question I have been wondering about is how much ESO is considered art by the people who create it (or the ones who have a say about the direction, at least), and how much just some commercial consumer product. I think it makes a big difference. While art is more (not entirely anymore, as there are also artists who are more commercially-minded) about the artist's personal idea and style, and the focus is on the artwork how it is meant to be, a consumer product is much less "stable" and can be altered to the consumers' wished at all times, without thinking much about preserving the original idea.

Of course ESO is also a commercial product, the studio needs to gain revenue, that is clear. I personally think it would be important to find a balance - to be able to be commercially successful, while not completely giving up the game's essential idea and style. But the people in charge might view that completely differently.

But even from the purely financial standpoint one could wonder how much sense it makes to water down such a well-known and specific franchise like TES. I, personally, believe that TES style by itself could already be very successful, without a need to bend to all kinds of other trends. From my point of view, uniqueness itself can be an advantage. Then again, ESO's marketing people will surely have all kinds of stats to see what sells well and what not, of course.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Every cosmetic has a tooltip that explains the lore behind it, and thus does connect it to the lore.

There's masses of flavor texts that show no lore connection whatsoever apart from randomly dropping some location name and claiming that this was the place the creature was bred in, whether it makes any sense according to the broader already established lore or not. Or have you ever seen the Telvanni mushroom horse anywhere in Telvanni regions? Or ever heard any npc there mentioning experiments about creating mushroom animal hybrids? Of course not.

I think for the devs that work on the game it may be art. For the triumvirate that seems to be the new leadership team, I'd say they're pretty invested in ESO. Probably look at it as set in some ways. Beyond that? In the C suite, well I think you probably know the answer. I'd say it's a different kind of art though.

I'm genuinely curious about what outside trends you think think the game is following in terms of cosmetics and the look of the game. I've played many MMOs over the years and most of them with cash shops have some pretty varied offerings, to appeal to the largest number of people. Beyond the cash shop, what parts of the game do you see a visual decline in? I understand that you have issues with recent story telling, and I'm with you there. But all the zones look the same as they always have.

Edit for spelling

BretonMage wrote: »

Otherwise I suppose we will have rap songs in taverns and memes on posters to look forward to in the years to come? (We already have Sharp saying "skill issue", so I guess we're closer than we know).

Lusty Argonian Maid: "Don't make me rap.."

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I think that folks' first mistakes were treating ESO as somehow being comparable to a mainline game.

Why wouldn't they, when being an Elder Scrolls game is a core part of the game's marketing and history? They absolutely were reaching out to fans of the franchise for this game, calling this an "online RPG" specifically in the Elder Scrolls Universe. Not a "live service game with fun cosmetics like Fortnite". So why would they expect the tone and aesthetics to become nonsense after a decade?



They also advertise "classic Elder Scrolls storytelling" right after that. They also use the word "Immerse". Which today is pretty funny. Maybe they can change that to "Elder Scrolls for the Modern Audience."

SilverBride wrote: »

Bguk wrote: »

All of our responses mean nothing as the OP noted they only want to get a response from the dev. Although in one post they stated, "Colorful and bright and flashy does equate cartoony to me." yet in the same page states, "Skills are being changed to be bright and flashy and now I can't play my DK because of it. Another thing now getting the cartoon treatment.". So maybe they just want a thread to complain and get others to complain of the direction rather than get an answer from the ESO folks.

I never said I only want a response from the developers. I encourage input from other players, which is why I presented the topic. And I already explained that other players can speculate why they think this is happening and I encourage their feedback, but speculations are not verified answers. Only ZOS knows their reason and I would like to hear what that is from them.

We agreed to disagree about this once so I will ask a second time. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

You know what, you never explicitly did say you wanted only a response from the devs/ZOS. I'm wrong, and sorry for that.

Yet comments like this, "That is all player speculation. And yes, I want to hear the reason from ZOS.", makes me believe you only want to hear from devs/ZOS.

I can't wait for the FX options to be in game.

Yudo wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Yudo wrote: »

I always thought mounts were one thing. But now there is neon pink skill style that shoot celestial fireworks of glitter. I think I discovered my limit on what is too much.

Every person I show this to asks if it is a skin, sooo... Wait for it! XD

A skin would be passable at least imo. Skill styles have been nice and a few of them actually very creative.
But what does this one have anything to do with a sorcerer? IDK, to me it feels like a step too far to alter the style completely with something else not directly related to the class.

I think something like this as a skill style makes way more sense. It's a look applied to a spell--something that typically has bright/flashy effects--versus a complete change of a body.

I've also always been under the impression that skill styles having multiple purposes, one of which being to stray from what the skill originally ''is.'' Why would all skill styles want to stick to the same aesthetic when instead some of them can be used to for example let you use a water spell to heal instead of a standard yellow restoration magic spell (in the case of the healing springs skill style)?

I also don't think stars are that far off conceptually from lightning but I don't really have the science knowledge to go any further than vibes.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SNIP

This argument is a simple "nope" from me. The "handwaving" discussed above clearly applies here. It also ignore that marketing should have a level of honest representation of a product, and it was pretty honest for a very long time. Also already wrote that I don't believe "because it sells it's justified" so don't feel the need to argue that further.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

If ZOS wanted to they could be cashing-in on those proven gasha mechanics and dangling thirst-trap and yassified fan-service companions, etc.

AllenaNightWood wrote: »

Yeah...no thirst-trapping being sold as Apex Crown Crate outfits in ESO here...

No Yaasified outfits like the feather-butt costume that was also an Apex reward in another crate.

AScarlato wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SNIP

AllenaNightWood wrote: »

Yeah...no thirst-trapping being sold as Apex Crown Crate outfits in ESO here...

No Yaasified outfits like the feather-butt costume that was also an Apex reward in another crate.

I feel like what they're saying, and I could be wrong, is that ZOS gonna Zos. That stuff sells and they need to make money. No matter how many 2 billion dollars they made, MS expects each of their studios to have a certain amount of revenue. The game has varied players and tastes. The popularity of these items speaks for itself. They wouldn't sell it if it didn't sell. Regardless of if I like it or not and there is many things don't care for.

Also, not to be old but I have no idea what yaasified means. We truly do learn something new every day.

They brought up that point in a paragraph about "other games are worse" and then had examples that ZOS actually does. That's my point.

These costumes are very mild compared to the Chinese and Korean free-to-play scene.

But the larger point remains: money talks and free-to-play walks. Vanilla enjoyers need to rival the sales of the large and deep-pocketed Celestial horse crowd in order to speak the language that ZOS understands - money.

There are Celestial horse whales spending big on the game. Are there brown horse enjoyers doing the same? Given recent trends, I think that we can infer the answer. We might not like that answer but the folks that spend money on the game are the ones keeping the servers running for the rest of us.

My preference would have been for a monthly WoW-style sub, rather than Crates and a cash shop, to fund the game but that ship has long since sailed away.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SNIP

AllenaNightWood wrote: »

Yeah...no thirst-trapping being sold as Apex Crown Crate outfits in ESO here...

No Yaasified outfits like the feather-butt costume that was also an Apex reward in another crate.

I feel like what they're saying, and I could be wrong, is that ZOS gonna Zos. That stuff sells and they need to make money. No matter how many 2 billion dollars they made, MS expects each of their studios to have a certain amount of revenue. The game has varied players and tastes. The popularity of these items speaks for itself. They wouldn't sell it if it didn't sell. Regardless of if I like it or not and there is many things don't care for.

Also, not to be old but I have no idea what yaasified means. We truly do learn something new every day.

They brought up that point in a paragraph about "other games are worse" and then had examples that ZOS actually does. That's my point.

These costumes are very mild compared to the Chinese and Korean free-to-play scene.

But the larger point remains: money talks and free-to-play walks. Vanilla enjoyers need to rival the sales of the large and deep-pocketed Celestial horse crowd in order to speak the language that ZOS understands - money.

There are Celestial horse whales spending big on the game. Are there brown horse enjoyers doing the same? Given recent trends, I think that we can infer the answer. We might not like that answer but the folks that spend money on the game are the ones keeping the servers running for the rest of us.

My preference would have been for a monthly WoW-style sub, rather than Crates and a cash shop, to fund the game but that ship has long since sailed away.

God a sub only game. I could almost imagine how good it would be. I remember this, like many MMOs of that time, being billed as the WoW killer. I'd argue this game is superior in some ways, of course it could learn a lot in others.