Why is everything becoming more cartoony?

JimT722 · March 19

I don't like the celestial mounts but some people love them.

SkaiFaith · March 19

BretonMage wrote: »

Just leaving this here, landed 20 minutes ago:

Wait til you see the new "Lightning Form" in-game XD

BretonMage · March 19

SkaiFaith wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Just leaving this here, landed 20 minutes ago:

Wait til you see the new "Lightning Form" in-game XD

I did, Mara save us.

Tazzy · March 19

BretonMage wrote: »

Just leaving this here, landed 20 minutes ago:

...Inspired by Pinkie Pie.
(my daughter will love it.

)

emilyhyoyeon · March 19

The celestial lightning form style is way less obnoxious than the celestial mounts

tomofhyrule · March 19

With ESO dropping Chapters and making all new content free, they have to recoup that money somewhere. And as evidenced by literally every live service game ever, flashiness sells.

A lot of this goes into the standard “how dare other people exist in my MMO” argument that a lot of people have, which really comes off as annoying. We already have been told that some form of an effects toggle is inbound if that’s the issue you have.

If anyone wants to move this game back to a grounded artstyle, they needs to prove it is profitable to do so. And that’s not just telling others to stop buying flashy stuff since you can’t control others. What you can do is to start buying anything basic, and gifting all of those to anyone you know. Prove that it’s worth the suits’ time to make more grounded cosmetics because it can make a profit.

Or, show ESO that a new extra subscription mode is a good idea: Elder Scrolls Au Naturel, where all player models are replaced with basic NPCs in the default armor, noncombat pets are removed, and all mounts are the Sorrel horse. It needs to be able to compete with the monetization from the seasons, so pricing it like the season pass would be appropriate, considering anyone who uses it wouldn’t have a reason to buy the actual passes then.

Arunei · March 19

I think that at some point there IS a point to be made that everyone ultimately has to have accountability for their own health. A lot of games have a bunch of flashing lights and will have epilepsy warnings because of it. People who have light sensitivities for example likely have them set off by more than just ESO. Not everyone can play every game or watch every movie.

Not to say there shouldn't have been a way to reduce eye strain and other problems implemented long before now, but at the end of the day a game is a game. It may not have been as flashy as it is now but as is the case for life in general, things rarely remain the same exact way they start for the entirety of their existence. Things change, especially in MMOs.

SilverBride wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

"Used to be one of the most realistic looking games I've ever played."

Yikes

Idk what supposedly changed about that as far as the art direction goes for the game itself, if anything its gotten better as far as motifs and the like are concerned and the new areas, for the most part anyway, solstice wasnt very impressive visually imo

The effects are maybe too high in color and pop, especially the blue flame visuals for DK. Don't like it nearly as much as the normal DK flames.

What I meant by that was the character models were realistically proportioned, compared to WoW where the males hands are twice as big as their heads, etc.. Mounts had skin and teeth and hooves rather than exploding in bright lights with swords sticking out of their sides. All these things had a realistic look about them.

I already touched on this. The models ARE still proportional. Proportions aren't the the same thing as something having skin and teeth and the like, but I've also mentioned plenty of Mounts and such ARE mundane with all of that.

Colorful and bright and flashy doesn't necessarily equate cartoony. Most people are going to think you mean proportions and style when you say cartoony, not think about how visually "loud" something is.

whitecrow · March 19

I like the celestial mounts as I find star/nebula imagery soothing. It's been a while since I've used the one I have but I don't think they come with a big bang or anything.

Edit: I see this one does have an obnoxious spawn. The one I already have just emerges from the ground which I don't think is too bad.

BretonMage · March 19

tomofhyrule wrote: »

A lot of this goes into the standard “how dare other people exist in my MMO” argument that a lot of people have, which really comes off as annoying.

The thing is, many of us invested thousands of hours into ESO in the earlier years before it took the direction it did. It's really less about the variety of tastes, and more that ESO is no longer what it used to be. What happens when there's such a wide discrepancy between the game we'd been playing for years and the game it's becoming? It's easy to say, "vote with your wallet", but we've already spent all that time and money, never expecting that it would become, well, this.

And again, I really can't imagine how they'd work a toggle to preserve a balanced aesthetic where there's some colour, but not Disney levels of colour. I don't want a super vanilla aesthetic where everyone's just wearing brown, and riding brown horses either.

tomofhyrule · March 19

BretonMage wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

A lot of this goes into the standard “how dare other people exist in my MMO” argument that a lot of people have, which really comes off as annoying.

The thing is, many of us invested thousands of hours into ESO in the earlier years before it took the direction it did. It's really less about the variety of tastes, and more that ESO is no longer what it used to be. What happens when there's such a wide discrepancy between the game we'd been playing for years and the game it's becoming? It's easy to say, "vote with your wallet", but we've already spent all that time and money, never expecting that it would become, well, this.

It’s a Live Service game.

That’s one of the things about Live Service games is that you agree in the ToS that it’s still the property of the devs and they can change any thing at any time.

If you want a game that will look exactly the same 10 years from now, that’s called something which is 1) not internet-based, and 2) dead. If you want a Live game, then you have to accept that it will evolve over time, and it’s not guaranteed to evolve in a way you want it to.

You can still vote with your wallet. Unsubscribe from ESO+. Don’t buy the season pass. And stop playing the game. As we saw from Subclassing and its aftermath, massive population craters do make the devs take notice.

AScarlato · March 19

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You can still vote with your wallet. Unsubscribe from ESO+. Don’t buy the season pass. And stop playing the game. As we saw from Subclassing and its aftermath, massive population craters do make the devs take notice.

I have, thanks.

Muizer · March 19

tomofhyrule wrote: »

It’s a Live Service game.

That’s one of the things about Live Service games is that you agree in the ToS that it’s still the property of the devs and they can change any thing at any time.

If you want a game that will look exactly the same 10 years from now, that’s called something which is 1) not internet-based, and 2) dead. If you want a Live game, then you have to accept that it will evolve over time, and it’s not guaranteed to evolve in a way you want it to.

I don't think anybody is claiming what ZOS is doing is illegal.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You can still vote with your wallet. Unsubscribe from ESO+. Don’t buy the season pass. And stop playing the game. As we saw from Subclassing and its aftermath, massive population craters do make the devs take notice.

Or you can go to the forums or some other medium where you may be heard by other players and devs and express you don't like what's happening and why, and be something more than a statistic.

So in all, what is your point?

SilverBride · March 19

Arunei wrote: »

Colorful and bright and flashy doesn't necessarily equate cartoony. Most people are going to think you mean proportions and style when you say cartoony, not think about how visually "loud" something is.

Colorful and bright and flashy does equate cartoony to me.

Realistic is partly from realistic character proportions which ESO has always had. The loud bright lights and explosions of color from mounts with swords sticking out their sides were not present in early ESO and do break the realistic feel.

YandereGirlfriend · March 19

Muizer wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

It’s a Live Service game.

That’s one of the things about Live Service games is that you agree in the ToS that it’s still the property of the devs and they can change any thing at any time.

If you want a game that will look exactly the same 10 years from now, that’s called something which is 1) not internet-based, and 2) dead. If you want a Live game, then you have to accept that it will evolve over time, and it’s not guaranteed to evolve in a way you want it to.

I don't think anybody is claiming what ZOS is doing is illegal.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You can still vote with your wallet. Unsubscribe from ESO+. Don’t buy the season pass. And stop playing the game. As we saw from Subclassing and its aftermath, massive population craters do make the devs take notice.

Or you can go to the forums or some other medium where you may be heard by other players and devs and express you don't like what's happening and why, and be something more than a statistic.

So in all, what is your point?

Their point is that live service games are not Mesozoic mosquitoes encased in amber. They change, are required to change, if they are to survive. And if the game time-traveled back to 2014, it would lose more players than it would gain.

Of course, I support an Effects Slider and hope that it is very robust so that folk may adjust the game more to their liking. Having options is almost always positive. I do not have epilepsy but I do get absolutely ruinous migraines that can be set off by various flashy media, so I understand well that particular concern and would likely make use of such a slider myself.

BretonMage · March 19

Evolution may be expected, not a complete change from TES to My Little Pony.

AcadianPaladin · March 19

BretonMage wrote: »

Just leaving this here, landed 20 minutes ago:

I can't think of a better or more eloquent case for why we NEED the option to turn that crap off. Absolutely hate it.

twisttop138 · March 19

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Generally speaking, for what it seems to be the online consensus: Wuthering Waves, or even Naraka to an extent, can be defined "anime art style" and no one would define WoW or Fortnite anime but absolutely "cartoon art style" - being blind to this is a choice, but the difference is evident, I repeat, in general terms.

Anyway, Elder Scrolls has a unique art style, and when Oblivion Remaster launched some felt the style was getting a bit lost.
ESO, as someone else said, has always sent the vibes of a "more realistic looking" game, even with its fantasy traits.
I remember the horse from the Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion - it made you feel powerful with minimum effects. We had a similar horse in the ESO store for years, but for what we have now as effects, that one is lost in nothingness.

The addition of a setting that hides other players' effects will do good for the game, but I get OP's fear for the artistic direction of the game - Why decide to lean into the "cartoon"? Who is the target now? What is the limit, if there is one? Are Devs in love and willing to preserve Elder Scrolls' art uniqueness or are they willing to follow trends like the upcoming AI one?

I'm honestly not sure why you are noting this beneath a quote of a post of mine that was solely about the suggestion that precise wording is probably the best in this discussion, because everyone will have an idea what "overly colorful, bright and flashy" means - while both cartoon and anime are art forms that can look vastly different from production to production, so people will have different ideas about what "cartoon style" or "anime style" even mean as a term. We've even seen it happening in this thread, with people saying "cartoon doesn't mean flashy", or asking what exactly is or is not "cartoon" or "anime" about ESO, because they have a different understanding of these concepts. So just precisely describing things ("unnatural body proportions in characters", "explosion effects", "garish colors") might be the better than coming up with more open-to-interpretion terms like "cartoon" or "anime". Even if there's some "online consensus" - lots of people don't seem to be aware of that. And if we want to discuss a topic, we need to communicate in a way that's easily understandable.

I'm also one of the users who have emphasized that ESO, or TES as a whole, always had more natural, subdued, graphics, by the way, and who is very critical of the stylistic changes ESO went through in the past decade, that not only feel like a stylistic discontinuity, but in its flashyness even disturb the gameplay itself - by not being able anymore to see damage indicators during fights, or by not being able to normally follow quest dialogues because loud and flashy teleport animations obscure the whole screen and drown out the spoken dialogue.

I was not disagreeing on your points, I just wanted to specify exactly the point that seemed to create confusion between the two terms, giving references to understand what people generally mean when they use them.
And as I expressed, I agree with the rest

twisttop138 wrote: »

SkaiFaith wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Not the person asked but for me, anime is by far the most intrusive when it comes to bright lights.

Anime is a visual art (can't even say "genre" because within it, all genres exist, just like all genres exist for novels, or live action movies, or music). Despite different traditions I wouldn't even say it's something different from Western animated cartoons - the only thing that makes it anime is, by definition, that it's an animated cartoon from Japan. Which can look like the video you linked above. Or it can look like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hKi1VlE94A

It's been a few decades since my early childhood, but I can't remember that having flashy effects Or Vicky the Viking, or Maya the Honey Bee, which are also all, by definition, anime = animated cartoons from Japan.

So I think if we talk about very colorful and flashy effects here, it might be better - if just for the sake of precision - to call it exactly that. Because anime, or cartoons as a whole, include many vastly different visual styles (the only thing they have in common, really, is that they're drawn instead of having real people as actors playing the roles).

Generally speaking, for what it seems to be the online consensus: Wuthering Waves, or even Naraka to an extent, can be defined "anime art style" and no one would define WoW or Fortnite anime but absolutely "cartoon art style" - being blind to this is a choice, but the difference is evident, I repeat, in general terms.

Anyway, Elder Scrolls has a unique art style, and when Oblivion Remaster launched some felt the style was getting a bit lost.
ESO, as someone else said, has always sent the vibes of a "more realistic looking" game, even with its fantasy traits.
I remember the horse from the Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion - it made you feel powerful with minimum effects. We had a similar horse in the ESO store for years, but for what we have now as effects, that one is lost in nothingness.

The addition of a setting that hides other players' effects will do good for the game, but I get OP's fear for the artistic direction of the game - Why decide to lean into the "cartoon"? Who is the target now? What is the limit, if there is one? Are Devs in love and willing to preserve Elder Scrolls' art uniqueness or are they willing to follow trends like the upcoming AI one?

*I don't know that we can say the devs don't love the game or elder scrolls. That goes too far.* You ask who the target is, I would say large swathes of the community. Again, this is a for profit company who's sole purpose is to make money. There will for sure be a team who tracks this stuff, find out what is popular, what will get the most people into the crown store and get them to make a purchase. With how many radiant apex flashy mounts and stuff there is, I'd say the target is pretty large. It's a known fact that mmo players love to customize. They want unique looks and on top of that people want the newest, coolest thing. It may not be my thing, but many people want others to look at them with their expensive stuff and go oh damn. I wish I had that. I'd argue that ZOS also wants that. I'd also argue that they make tons of understated and plain mounts, pets and costumes. Because, again, players love to customize.

It's not about following an art style, or staying within the cannon. Really they should do what fallout 76 did. Everything in the cash shop exists outside the canon. They just want to make what people will buy and of course, people are buying it. I'm not saying any of this is right or wrong. It just is.

I never said Devs don't love TES. My question was more "are they willing to defend TES as we know it against the idea of: follow trends = profit?" I'LL VOLUNTARILY EXAGGERATE HERE with something impossibile, but I'd prefer ESO to vanish in the void than seeing it put in the cash shop Barbie or Homer Simpson skins. We know this will never happen. My question remains: where is the limit set in maintaining TES DNA and how much are Devs willing to give up?
And to be honest, I say Devs but could very well be just marketing team or "Corpo Leaders".

How much have they really given up though? Let's be totally fair. Some people may feel this way but it doesn't make it fact. I'd argue most players are perfectly happy with unique mounts that make noise and flash. Or skill styles and green beans that shoot out of books. All that is taste and taste is subjective. What elder scrolls means to you it may not mean to the next guy. This is what makes money. Now that all content is free, you can expect to see a lot more as they dial in the formula.

I do want to make something clear though. I don't really disagree that ESO has moved in a direction that's veered off from what it was in the beginning. I just don't see it as all bad. This is an mmo wearing elder scrolls pajamas, a theme park mmo at that. I also would rather the game die than do some tacky cross over or make our character models more like WOW or something. You ask how much corporate is willing to give up elder scrolls DNA to make a profit. I think you already know the answer to that. I don't think it comes to that though.

Arunei · March 19

SilverBride wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Colorful and bright and flashy doesn't necessarily equate cartoony. Most people are going to think you mean proportions and style when you say cartoony, not think about how visually "loud" something is.

Colorful and bright and flashy does equate cartoony to me.

Realistic is partly from realistic character proportions which ESO has always had. The loud bright lights and explosions of color from mounts with swords sticking out their sides were not present in early ESO and do break the realistic feel.

But as has already been pointed out several times, this is a live game. It's GOING to change, and ESO was never 'realistic' to begin with. It's a fantasy game where there are literal Gods and Demons and animal-folk, Vampires and Ghosts and Werewolves and other creatures exist, magic exists and is so prevelant it can alter or even destroy reality, where time travel is a thing and in fact time is so non-linear things like Dragon Breaks can happen.

In a setting where all this is the case, it stands to reason there will be bombastic and loud effects tied to things players can get. And this isn't exactly a recent development, either, Mounts like these started getting added to the game years ago via Crates. Hell, the first batch of Crates (released back in 2016) introduced the Storm Atronach Mounts. Reapers Harvest a couple of Crate seasons later gave us the Skeleton Mounts. Scalecaller Crates introduced the Dragonfire Wolf. Hollowjack Crates brought the Hollowjack Rider Mounts. Dragonscale Crates brought the Dragonscale Solar Horse. Frost Atronach Crates brought the Volcanic Senche-Panther Mount. These are only the Crates up until 2019-2020, during which time the Luminous Indrik was also introduced.

I could keep going but I doubt it's neccesary. Fantastical and/or loud Mounts and other effects haven't only been getting added to the game in the last year or two, they've been introduced to the game going back years and years.

twisttop138 · March 19

BretonMage wrote: »

Evolution may be expected, not a complete change from TES to My Little Pony.

Kind of an exaggeration, no?

You know, it's funny. I've been told many times in these forums when I had an issue with the game, that if I don't like it then stop playing. That ZOS doesn't owe me anything. Ironically, by the person who started this very thread. I think that's a bad way to approach things.

I will say though, that I'm in agreement with @tomofhyrule This is a live service game that changes over time. The players decided that a sub model wasn't worth it to them and it's morphed over time to what we have now. While I find many aspects of the crown store in bad taste, it's the thing that keeps the game afloat. It'll now have to do heavy lifting to make everything free. So the stuff that sells will not be going away. Likely quite the opposite. I really hope they give options to make things less flashy if that's how you guys want them, but I think everyone in this thread is smart enough to know that it's not going to change. We just have to all decide for ourselves how much we put up with.

AScarlato · March 19

twisttop138 wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Evolution may be expected, not a complete change from TES to My Little Pony.

Kind of an exaggeration, no?

How? There is literally an image of a pink sparkling pony-thing just above this comment.

whitecrow · March 19

AScarlato wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Evolution may be expected, not a complete change from TES to My Little Pony.

Kind of an exaggeration, no?

How? There is literally an image of a pink sparkling pony-thing just above this comment.

And gummi bear...

twisttop138 · March 19

AScarlato wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Evolution may be expected, not a complete change from TES to My Little Pony.

Kind of an exaggeration, no?

How? There is literally an image of a pink sparkling pony-thing just above this comment.

Hey hey hey. My little pony is for little girls. I'm a big man on my pretty pink pony and demand some respect.

Let's be fair. People go nuts fir fashion scrolls and crazy in depth customization of their characters. Flashy mounts sell. End of story. Though I hope you guys get some kind of options. No one wants to feel crappy about the game they enjoy.

AScarlato · March 19

twisttop138 wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Evolution may be expected, not a complete change from TES to My Little Pony.

Kind of an exaggeration, no?

How? There is literally an image of a pink sparkling pony-thing just above this comment.

Hey hey hey. My little pony is for little girls. I'm a big man on my pretty pink pony and demand some respect.

Let's be fair. People go nuts fir fashion scrolls and crazy in depth customization of their characters. Flashy mounts sell. End of story. Though I hope you guys get some kind of options. No one wants to feel crappy about the game they enjoy.

Oh we know they sell and are used.

That's why this thread exists lol.

Arunei · March 19

AScarlato wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Evolution may be expected, not a complete change from TES to My Little Pony.

Kind of an exaggeration, no?

How? There is literally an image of a pink sparkling pony-thing just above this comment.

It's an Ornaug, not a pony hehe.

That being said, pink doesn't really mean anything, a number of other things have pink too. It's supposed to be like a celestial body/occurnace and those are super vibrant so it makes sense.

AScarlato · March 19

Arunei wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Evolution may be expected, not a complete change from TES to My Little Pony.

Kind of an exaggeration, no?

How? There is literally an image of a pink sparkling pony-thing just above this comment.

It's an Ornaug, not a pony hehe.

That being said, pink doesn't really mean anything, a number of other things have pink too. It's supposed to be like a celestial body/occurnace and those are super vibrant so it makes sense.

Oh, in that case, I suppose it makes totally sense and is no longer immersion breaking for people to be flying around on these things. lol

Arunei · March 19

AScarlato wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Evolution may be expected, not a complete change from TES to My Little Pony.

Kind of an exaggeration, no?

How? There is literally an image of a pink sparkling pony-thing just above this comment.

It's an Ornaug, not a pony hehe.

That being said, pink doesn't really mean anything, a number of other things have pink too. It's supposed to be like a celestial body/occurnace and those are super vibrant so it makes sense.

Oh, in that case, I suppose it makes totally sense and is no longer immersion breaking for people to be flying around on these things. lol

It's a game where literal Demons invade the realm of existence mortals reside on and where animals can be formed out of pure magic, I'm not sure what immersion we're talking about here. Like I said, ESO was never realistic. There have been Mounts and Skins and such based on celestial stuff or mythical creatures or whatever for a while now, the Ornaug Mount isn't the first nor will it be the last.

SilverBride · March 19

Arunei wrote: »

It's a game where literal Demons invade the realm of existence mortals reside on and where animals can be formed out of pure magic, I'm not sure what immersion we're talking about here. Like I said, ESO was never realistic. There have been Mounts and Skins and such based on celestial stuff or mythical creatures or whatever for a while now, the Ornaug Mount isn't the first nor will it be the last.

There were not always bright exploding mounts and recalls in this game. And now they are invading our skill lines. This is not what everyone wants. Not by a long shot.

tomofhyrule · March 19

AScarlato wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Evolution may be expected, not a complete change from TES to My Little Pony.

Kind of an exaggeration, no?

How? There is literally an image of a pink sparkling pony-thing just above this comment.

It's an Ornaug, not a pony hehe.

That being said, pink doesn't really mean anything, a number of other things have pink too. It's supposed to be like a celestial body/occurnace and those are super vibrant so it makes sense.

Oh, in that case, I suppose it makes totally sense and is no longer immersion breaking for people to be flying around on these things. lol

It’s a Radiant Apex mount, which means very few people will actually have it.
It’s probably not everyone’s cup of tea in the first place, so people who luck into it may not even use it.
People who do have it are generally the ones who most support the game and its development by spending a lot of money and/or time to get the gems or seal.
Every cosmetic has a tooltip that explains the lore behind it, and thus does connect it to the lore.

I personally wouldn’t be caught dead on that thing (honestly, most of this current crate season is unexciting to me), but I’m not going to rage about it existing. If someone next to me summons one, there are still 47 (currently) other zones to which I could go, with hundreds of activities otherwise. I honestly can’t think of times when I’m playing that I often run into too many others anyway, outside of doing daily writs or if there are events on.

SilverBride · March 19

If it was just mounts and recalls that we are going to get a way to reduce the effects of then that would be doable. But it's not. Skills are being changed to be bright and flashy and now I can't play my DK because of it. Another thing now getting the cartoon treatment.

Please just stop.

AScarlato · March 19

tomofhyrule wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Evolution may be expected, not a complete change from TES to My Little Pony.

Kind of an exaggeration, no?

How? There is literally an image of a pink sparkling pony-thing just above this comment.

It's an Ornaug, not a pony hehe.

That being said, pink doesn't really mean anything, a number of other things have pink too. It's supposed to be like a celestial body/occurnace and those are super vibrant so it makes sense.

Oh, in that case, I suppose it makes totally sense and is no longer immersion breaking for people to be flying around on these things. lol

It’s a Radiant Apex mount, which means very few people will actually have it.

It’s probably not everyone’s cup of tea in the first place, so people who luck into it may not even use it.

People who do have it are generally the ones who most support the game and its development by spending a lot of money and/or time to get the gems or seal.

Every cosmetic has a tooltip that explains the lore behind it, and thus does connect it to the lore.

I personally wouldn’t be caught dead on that thing (honestly, most of this current crate season is unexciting to me), but I’m not going to rage about it existing. If someone next to me summons one, there are still 47 (currently) other zones to which I could go, with hundreds of activities otherwise. I honestly can’t think of times when I’m playing that I often run into too many others anyway, outside of doing daily writs or if there are events on.

We just disagree; to me some of your posts really come across as apologist. Things like a $2B+ revenue game needing to evolve and can't stick to it's aesthetics due to a need to make money, as though nothing worked before where they made all that money. Or if something just isn't that bad, it's fine to add it since someone will like it.

I don't think something making any money means it's a success or a good idea.

This mount also isn't in a vacuum, it's a lot of little things that have added up to the point of annoying in total.