I am now taking the privilege to say this, as I have never needed to say it before. I have and never will make a build that does NOT have Resolving Vigor on it (until Necromancer gets a pet with equivalent healing over time) .

NxJoeyD wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

"NxJoeyD wrote: »

Res Vigor isn’t the top choice in PvP but it is used for builds that are looking to slot a decently scaling HoT that runs off the stam pool (and cheaply at that).

HUH?

I assume you know what Resolving Vigor is? … it’s a self heal that has a sub 3k stam cost and can, easily, scale into the mid to high 20k range and provides minor protection for 20 seconds.

Most healing skills were cost adjusted in previous updates but Resolving Vigor is one of the few exceptions, and runs off Stam rather than Mag.

On a meta crit build this skill will yield self HoT ticks in the 4k to 5k range in PvP which mitigates a lot of incoming damage.

Most meta builds run Contingency or Soul Burst, some will run Wardens Seed as that’s also a cost exception in healing but a handfull will run Vigor as their HoT as it will give one of the best per tick rates out there and that leaves them free to scribe Warriors on Contingency to cut incoming damage by an additional 8%.

The "HUH?" is for your comment saying that "Resolving Vigor isn't the top choice in PvP".

It’s not. It’s a choice, and a solid one but it’s not the top because it’s only a HoT and not a burst.

Any proper PvP build is slotting a strong burst as their primary heal, which, is why I cited Contingency & Soul Burst as the top two as they’re scribed and bring more passive benefits than any base skill heal. Beyond the scribes we see Honor as another go-to burst in the meta.

Vigor is absolutely used in PvP but any HoT are a secondary method of damage mitigation, not your main. Your hard hitting burst is what drives your top choice.

NB / Warden / Templar are still the top combo in PvP bringing crit, healing, damage, and more importantly, sustain & cleansing.

Thats not the only popular build in PvP but if we’re talking to go-to choices for top output that’s what I’m still seeing out there; even with the uptick in DK skill lines being tried.

You do realize that Vigor is always top #1 heal value on any build in a real fight right? I'm just curious, do you have CMX at all?

I'm XB NA, CMX isn't available. I do have a PC NA but that's not my primary I only use that for solo PTS.

I thought CMX though showed you your combat output and input metrics? CMX won't show your opponents gear and / or skills used, or at least I never knew it to do that. It might show you an opponents total numbers but not how they got those numbers. Did that change?

Vigor it a bit of a mix case. In the combat I see Vigor having an consistent uptime but I also see burst healing consistently.

Whether Vigor yields more total healing versus a players burst will depend on whether or not they're running with a squad vs randoms, whether their squad or team has a dedicated healer, and whether or not MMR has them pit against equitable players. I don't regular PC NA but on XB NA the consistency among the hardest hitting meta builds are the bursts followed by the HoT, such as Vigor.

A lot of PvP on XB NA (especially IC & BGs) lack consistent dedicated healers so your top end builds definitely do run their HoT but lean a lot on their bursts in their rotations because you often find yourself up against hard hitting builds and don't have the dedicated healing component so HoT simply isn't enough, the bursts are hitting constantly and are what's keeping you alive. The HoTs are mitigating stacks and DoTs coming in. On XB NA, I see much more Burst > HoT, especially in BG match recaps.

CMX won’t directly reveal an opponent’s gear, but if they are using a proc set CMX can record it through the damage taken section. Things like Pyrebrand, Null Arca, or even Mech Acuity will show up there.

Anyways, Vigor is always top #1 healing-per-second value on any build. The only other heal I’ve seen outperform Vigor is Crit Surge, and that still requires very high uptime. Your main heal should always be Vigor, then burst heal when you’re low health. Even Vigor can be used as a burst heal if you cast it right before it ticks (double tick effect).

Healing per second, yes, I agree, Vigor is untouchable; and I said that as much posts ago. .. But the highest heal per tick doesn't necessarily mean that's going to yield the highest amount of total healing.

I know players do stack Vigor ticks but even still; when you have 4 to 5 out of 8 players on a team spamming rotations of Merciless, Fissure, Surprise, Whirling, Comet, Colossus, Incap., Thrive, etc no HoT, including Vigor, is enough to offset how high those bursts scale.

Again, if you have a dedicated healing role, sure, Vigor is enough; but when you don't, even the 4k to 5k per tick of Vigor isn't going to save you from 18k to 20k Merciless hits or persistent Fissures.

Vigor is not supposed to save you from 18k-20k Merciless hits. Not even a burst heal can help you if you eat a 20k Merciless to the face and die before you get to cast a GCD. Only blocking, dodging or stacking mitigation can let you mitigate that kind of damage.

The main purpose of Vigor is to be a cheap main heal when you're above 50-60% HP, and a supplementary one to your burst heal when you're below 50% HP, that's it. It's not supposed to be stronger than Healing Soul or Healthy Offering when you're below 50% HP, as that would defeat the purpose of those abilities in the first place.

A proper build with 2 strong HoTs such as Vigor and Crit Surge allows you to mitigate at least ~3k DPS. That is a lot of survivability with only 2 HoTs. Since these heals are so cheap and easily layered, you can save resources (because burst heals are expensive) and free up GCDs to cast other skills. That is also why HoT stacking is so effective in ball groups because they have at least 5 HoTs rolling at any given time, making it very hard for people to drop them below 50% HP.

So yes, I said "HUH" because your statement that Vigor isn't a top pick is flat out wrong. It is the best self-HoT in the game for all builds.

xylena wrote: »

What? How did a DK thread turn into 3 pages arguing over Vigor?

Oh right, because DK is actually fine as the new top meta class, it's the busted sets/stats inflating every possible build and every mundane skill like Vigor to insane power levels.

Nuke Monomyth, RoA, Null Arca, and VD. Meta is instantly 99% less heinous. These sets are a net negative, catering to one shot pug stomping and mandatory extreme minmaxing.

While Rallying Cry isn't busted, its chokehold on the meta kills build diversity, so don't nuke it, but a medium nerf like they did with MDW would open up theorycrafting again.

DK isn’t fine lol. You keep telling yourself that but every single top tier PvPer is saying the class is busted. Not saying it should be nerfed, but to deny it being busted is just wrong.

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

every single top tier PvPer is saying the class is busted

React wrote: »

I hope they bring every class up to this level

Hey Static, I'll ignore the absurdity and agree with you if you go this hard on nerfing Assassination and the busted gear sets that have oppressed the meta for X years. Deal?

For that matter, why haven't you gone this hard on Assassination in the X months that it has lorded over one of the worst metas the game has ever seen? Why tunnel vision DK like this?

You think I don’t? Don’t forget that I’ve even pushed for nerfs against my own class when Hardened Ward was broken.

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

You think I don’t?

No, I think you keep moving onto new topics. That was 3 topics above, now it's DK.

The result, you unintentionally suggest "if everything is broken, nothing is."

Yes, I moved on because DK is at least 2 tiers above those subclassed builds. That’s how broken this class is. Even then, I only asked for the sustain part of Inhale to be nerfed. Not Whip, not Corrosive, not Shattering. Just Inhale’s sustain, because the top PvPers are abusing the crap out of that sustain to push their stats far beyond what a normal build is capable of.

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Just Inhale’s sustain

May I suggest this be your focus and post title rather than DK UNFUN then?

I'm fine going after the endless sustain but there's a lot more work to do than just Inhale.

Are people willing to have an objective discussion? Because last time I made that thread people were adamant that the sustain is fine. Meanwhile, React said he has infinite sustain in Cyrodiil with sub 1k regen fully buffed. Not even a stamsorc can confidently say that lol

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Are people willing to have an objective discussion?

I'm fine saying I was wrong about Inhale, this should not be the standard going forward, maybe "sustain skills" don't belong in PvP at all, definitely not as one shot enablers.

I have a different take on this; I'd rather get my sustain from skillful use of abilities than having it be "automated" and be forced into Orzorgas etc in most cases.

They should buff other classes sustain skills to this level.


You also won't remove one shots from PvP that way, it's not like gankers care about their sustain... Or people Xv1ing on dueling builds.

To reduce the amount of one shots you'd need to introduce crit resistance passives, maybe even a new crit resistance mundus.

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Markytous wrote: »

I've been having fun. Lightning Animal Assassin tears are so sweet. I've been playing every other pureclass than DK as well. Can't please everyone.

I’m a pure Sorc. This patch is unplayable for my class.

Played some pure sorc (sithis disdain rallying) this patch, still works absolutely fine if you play ranged, as all the DK builds are melee range ones.

There's also a lot of avenues to subclass into DK skill lines for strong builds, warden charm with Northern Storm & Power Lash for example works very well. In case of sorc, you can actually sustain using DW scribe as spammable with Heart of Flame and put an Off Balance affix there for easy Power Lashes.


I'd try thinking outside the box a little bit.

Okay first of all, outside the box? What are you going to do against DKs that slot wings? 50% less damage on your attacks for no reason.

Second of all, by telling me to subclass into DK you’re basically saying it’s a necessity. That is no different than being forced to run Animal/Assassination last patch.

I want to remain pure sorc, and it WORKED last patch. This patch, I cannot be a pure sorc because a lot of people are DK, and DK is miles ahead of everything else.

I want to share a few thoughts about patch 49. I played a pure DK even before the patch. It was terrible. The chances of beating a subclass build with both players at the same skill level were very low. If we don't count niche DK builds, it was rare to encounter a DK in PvP. This was probably the reason why DK was reworked first. However, I believe they should have started with the Sorcerer and Warden (the core of meta subclass builds).

Now about patch 49. I have already played a lot of PvP. Now DK has become considerably stronger, but subclass builds still remain very strong opponents. It's clear that other classes seem weaker than DK. But the point of these reworks was to balance subclass builds and pure builds. In the future, all pure classes will become stronger.
Regarding wings. DK itself is pretty cool now. But the DC practically lacks long-range combat skills. And after the patch, DK started dealing more damage but also lost some survivability. If it weren't for the wings, DK would be like a dummy for a range build (especially sorc with streak). Currently, PvP between sorc and DK continues until someone makes a mistake. And this is before the patch for the sorc. Maybe I'm not the strongest DK and it's just hard for me against very strong players but still I mainly play PvP (1000+ hours only in PVP).

And I have one very important question. Could you really fight in PvP against meta subclass builds? Ones that, just like before, can still kill you in 1-3 seconds while remaining very survivable (streak).

xylena wrote: »

What? How did a DK thread turn into 3 pages arguing over Vigor?

Oh right, because DK is actually fine as the new top meta class, it's the busted sets/stats inflating every possible build and every mundane skill like Vigor to insane power levels.

Nuke Monomyth, RoA, Null Arca, and VD. Meta is instantly 99% less heinous. These sets are a net negative, catering to one shot pug stomping and mandatory extreme minmaxing.

While Rallying Cry isn't busted, its chokehold on the meta kills build diversity, so don't nuke it, but a medium nerf like they did with MDW would open up theorycrafting again.

This would go a very, very long way into healing the absurdity of the game's overall balance atm. Can't even properly assess the class refreshes until these outliers are dealt with first. Yet people go way out of their way to avoid talking about it, and instead just focus on the "current" top "class".

Decimus wrote: »

I'd rather get my sustain from skillful use of abilities than having it be "automated" and be forced into Orzorgas etc in most cases

I'd rather the meta obligate regen food than obligate a specific skill. Food is not interesting, it's just a gap filler on the stat sheet, it doesn't (and shouldn't) dictate strat or playstyle.

Obligating a specific skill to minmax directly reduces build diversity in strats and playstyles. Dot pressure DK can't really make good use of Inhale, ranged or support can't, every DK you face will be doing mostly the same thing, trying to land spike damage on their Inhale ad nauseum.

LadyBriala wrote: »

...There's nothing quite like seeing an army of DK's in BG charge in with leap and obliterate your team as you stand there being the only one to survive because your'e a healer thats actually geared for PvP and well.. I saw it coming so I dodged away.. /facepalm.

Majority of solo queue are newbies with blue/pve sets and no understanding of the concept of picking up a ball or taking a relic.. They play like its Death match every single time.

It was already hard to play with these people, it has gotten a WHOLE hellalot worse now that anybody with a pve set can just play DK and smash in with an absurd amount of damage and cc.. so ya.. its fun :')

I really wish they just waited and released all class changes at once and then tweeked it.. but they need something to put on their news board so.. ya.

Funfunfunfunfun..

Once the newbies raise their MMR and start hitting BGs with high MMR players, a surprise awaits them) You also need to manage to press the jump button before getting killed in 1-2 seconds. In patch 49, DKs have less survivability than before.

xFocused wrote: »

Reading through this post and seeing valid, insightful feedback just makes me believe once again that Zos doesn't actually play any sort of PvP in this game. It's the sole reason ball groups never get any kind of nerfs, RoA, Charm, etc...and now apparently the DK.

Is DK busted right now? Yes and No. I've been playing this week and last weekend on a solo DK in Cyro and while it does secure me a good amount of kills, it's still a challenge to play against subclass builds, which is okay, I like the challenge of a 1v1, however, like most metas in this game, it'll most likely be nerfed or pushed aside once the next pure class meta is released. I get where the frustration comes from, whenever there's a new meta, it becomes saturated and annoying to play against (subclassed Charm wardens), but that's the nature of the game. PvP in this game hasn't been in a great state for a long time now and it's only gotten worse when subclassing released. I think the DK re-work is a welcomed change but at the same time, it doesn't seem like it went through any kind of testing before being released. That's just my opinion though. I've been playing PvP in this game for years and have seen some of the worst and best metas, nerfs, buffs and the like and it does have a lot of potential to be great again but until Zos starts playing it the way we play it, it'll always been stuck in a "mid" state sadly

Are we playing the same game?

My DK STOMPS in Cyrodiil idc what group or @name they have.

Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.

This was my mitigation:


and CPs:


I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.

This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:




With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.

Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:




Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.

Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.

A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.

hoangdz wrote: »

Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.

This was my mitigation:


and CPs:


I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.

This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:




With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.

Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:




Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.

Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.

A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.

Am I reading it wrong, looks like he Power Lashed (the proc’d version) while in Corrosive for 7k damage?

And we’re mad about that? Cause you don’t recognize this persons name?

hoangdz wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Btw here are some interesting CMX screenshots from a Cyrodiil session I had earlier. Not saying DK needs a nerf, but it's just food for thought.

This was my mitigation:


and CPs:


I also had Major + Minor Protection back bar and procced Major Maim on my targets whenever I used my burst heal. Basically, I'm a tank.

This was a meta subclass build I dueled against in Cyrodiil (Assassination/Aedric/Storm). He's a decent player:




With Incap debuff and Balorgh, his max crit bow was 8828 against me.

Now look at this random DK player that zerged me down:




Dude is wearing Vicious Death front bar, and hitting a 7447 NON CRIT Flame Lash on me. He doesn't even have the extra damage from Molten Whip.

Both players used their full combo, but a random DK is at least 2x more lethal than a subclassed build, while on a BOMBER build, with an AoE morph spammable. If he had Molten, that would have easily been a 10k non crit.

A random DK player is more lethal than a decent subclassed player. Let that sink in.

Am I reading it wrong, looks like he Power Lashed (the proc’d version) while in Corrosive for 7k damage?

And we’re mad about that? Cause you don’t recognize this persons name?

My guy, I showed 2 screenshots of a meta subclass build hitting an 8.8k CRIT bow proc with Incap debuff and Balorgh, while a DK build using VICIOUS DEATH is hitting a 7.7k NON CRIT Flame Lash. Are you intentionally misreading what I say? Cause any non-biased person can look at the screenshots and get what I'm trying to say. Corrosive alone isn't gonna make up for the loss of a full 5 piece set. DK is that strong.

It was Power Lash, right? And with Corrosive up, right? Your crit resist means nothing on none crits, your resistances mean nothing during Corrosive. Sounds like Unknown Timmy is playing the mechanics correctly.