ZOS Trying to Kill Subclassing NOW?

Gabriel_H · March 13

Rungar wrote: »

steamcharts doesnt seem to agree with most of you guys. Last patch didnt even move the needle. I really dont think the class refreshes are going to have the effect you all were hoping for.

You are comparing apples and oranges. At this time in previous years the release of new dungeon DLCs would increase the player numbers. There has been no DLC release this year.

Any change in numbers is unlikely to come until new content is released, and the numbers won't be as spiky as previous years as we are getting more smaller releases over a longer period of time.

Class refreshes are not going to spike numbers, but rather shore up the underlying constant, which is still holding steady at this point. They aren't yet back to pre-pandemic numbers (being about 12,000 this time of year) but they holding around 10,000 which speaks to a solid loyal base.

Personofsecrets · March 13

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Templar tanking, from a tanking point of view, needs very little improving.

There is little work that needs to be done to the class itself, it's the lack of group buffs that are the issue.

The distinction being made here is an extreme false dichotomy. Tanking IS providing group buffs while doing some other things.

Gabriel_H · March 13

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Templar tanking, from a tanking point of view, needs very little improving.

There is little work that needs to be done to the class itself, it's the lack of group buffs that are the issue.

The distinction being made here is an extreme false dichotomy. Tanking IS providing group buffs while doing some other things.

The primary job of a tank is to control mobs, followed by mitigating damage, followed by sustaining those things, followed by emergency survivibility, all while doing the mechs correctly and ensuring efficient positioning of mobs to stop DDs taking avoidable damage and allowing them to maximize their dps, followed by providing buffs.

Avran_Sylt · March 13

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit would be all about balancing 'pure' classes if such a thing were appropriate.

Except this is Elder Scrolls, and for 30 years, this world existed where player choice mattered more than some half-baked dev-driven idea of "class".

But this is an MMO, not a single-player game. Your choices can affect others.

Also, player choice includes the choice to play a pure class. But that isn't a viable choice if pure classes are weak.

I honestly don't get the complaints here. If you subclass, you'll still be strong. Pure classes will be strong in a different way. You can't have it all. Your choices will matter, and that's good.

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

So DK tanking back then was still bad (since "high-end tanking" only used one DK skill), but it just had a band-aid passive on it, is what I'm getting from you.

Have you considered trying to bring up changes to the new skills on how they could be tweaked to make using them as a tank more interesting?

Or are you just going to complain about the "morally bad" and "evil" devs until they figure out a way to placate you or simply ignore your ramblings?

They've said that it's possbile these class changes could still be tweaked as we continue forward, give some suggestions on how you think DK tanking could be improved, using DK skills.

Avran_Sylt · March 13

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

I expect this is DK rework 1.0 and they'll adjust stuff as they see how it plays out now that everyone has access to the reworked DK. Small comfort, I know.

DK skills have become denigrated for 10 years. The design team isn't going to suddenly think they made an oopsie.

Look at dk wings for exampe. That skill was totally robbed of it's power a decade ago and has never been useful since then.

I'm genuinely disgusted that now the design team has messed around with that skills name and in such a sick way as to deliberately make it sound goofy but with some plausible deniability. It's absolutely shameful that people would pick on their fans in such a way by making such a joke name and be as bold face as to comment on joking around about the name on stream. How putrid.

If you're genuinely this upset over something that ultimately isn't that serious, it may be time to take a break from the game. It's not sick in the slightest to rename something, especially when people don't care to differentiate between how a word is pronounced. It's Wing Buffet (buff-it), buffet meaning to strike repeatedly. When I saw the Skill name that was the first meaning I thought of, not buffet (buff-ay).

People I know are doing more damage and such with new DK. People will like it, people will hate it. Not everyone can be made happy, but as others have said this IS an MMO, not a single-player game. Balancing needs to exist (even if it's delayed) and this rework of the Class has only been live for a couple of days, yet it's the same thing any time a big change is introduced, with people preaching doom and gloom. This whole thing happened when Subclassing first was released, people yelling that Subclassing was going to kill the game, it was going to kill this or that and everything in-between. Now it's people saying the opposite.

Nope! I not only have the right to discuss something that I'm invested in in a serious way, but it is completely normal to feel wronged as I have.

It is basic decency for changes to long standing ways of being to be both carefully considered and to not be mocked. The changes to wings doesnt meet either of those for me. That is also true because wing buffet is an awful name even if it isn't a joke. But it has now been joked around about which is both an indication that it isnt being taken seriously and a disappointment considering how wings used to be awesome before being blown up by design. Total salt on the wound moment.

It's also true that the idea of "stop caring so much man" is regressive thinking.

Dude, its moreso that your petulant demeanor makes your arguments seem irrelevant and simply that you're someone against change at all.

You're bashing with little to no constructive criticism to be found, and it seems you only ever begin to partially elaborate on various changes after being needled about your behavior.

Don't forget, it's often the loudest vocal minority that posts on forums, so take that in mind, and try to be the clearest voice.

Avran_Sylt · March 13

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Templar tanking, from a tanking point of view, needs very little improving.

There is little work that needs to be done to the class itself, it's the lack of group buffs that are the issue.

The distinction being made here is an extreme false dichotomy. Tanking IS providing group buffs while doing some other things.

Group buffing is a support role, like a bard.

It's really only something associated with tanks and healers in ESO because those roles are fairly simple already and need other things to be interesting.

Personofsecrets · March 13

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

I expect this is DK rework 1.0 and they'll adjust stuff as they see how it plays out now that everyone has access to the reworked DK. Small comfort, I know.

DK skills have become denigrated for 10 years. The design team isn't going to suddenly think they made an oopsie.

Look at dk wings for exampe. That skill was totally robbed of it's power a decade ago and has never been useful since then.

I'm genuinely disgusted that now the design team has messed around with that skills name and in such a sick way as to deliberately make it sound goofy but with some plausible deniability. It's absolutely shameful that people would pick on their fans in such a way by making such a joke name and be as bold face as to comment on joking around about the name on stream. How putrid.

If you're genuinely this upset over something that ultimately isn't that serious, it may be time to take a break from the game. It's not sick in the slightest to rename something, especially when people don't care to differentiate between how a word is pronounced. It's Wing Buffet (buff-it), buffet meaning to strike repeatedly. When I saw the Skill name that was the first meaning I thought of, not buffet (buff-ay).

People I know are doing more damage and such with new DK. People will like it, people will hate it. Not everyone can be made happy, but as others have said this IS an MMO, not a single-player game. Balancing needs to exist (even if it's delayed) and this rework of the Class has only been live for a couple of days, yet it's the same thing any time a big change is introduced, with people preaching doom and gloom. This whole thing happened when Subclassing first was released, people yelling that Subclassing was going to kill the game, it was going to kill this or that and everything in-between. Now it's people saying the opposite.

Nope! I not only have the right to discuss something that I'm invested in in a serious way, but it is completely normal to feel wronged as I have.

It is basic decency for changes to long standing ways of being to be both carefully considered and to not be mocked. The changes to wings doesnt meet either of those for me. That is also true because wing buffet is an awful name even if it isn't a joke. But it has now been joked around about which is both an indication that it isnt being taken seriously and a disappointment considering how wings used to be awesome before being blown up by design. Total salt on the wound moment.

It's also true that the idea of "stop caring so much man" is regressive thinking.

Dude, its moreso that your petulant demeanor makes your arguments seem irrelevant and simply that you're someone against change at all.

You're bashing with little to no constructive criticism to be found, and it seems you only ever begin to partially elaborate on various changes after being needled about your behavior.

Don't forget, it's often the loudest vocal minority that posts on forums, so take that in mind, and try to be the clearest voice.

LoL - Hold up a mirror friend.

The things that I find wrong with the DK changes have been described by me well enough in initial posts. Any elaboration of mine is icing on the cake.

If I'm against change as a principle, then why do I believe that a number of the QoL changes are quite positive?

FYI, I've had a number of players reach out to me in private to collaborate about the DK changes and share that they too are not pleased by ongoing changes. Even so, maybe there isn't a majority of DK tanks that feel the way I do. It would be impossible to know this information. Appealing to the majority though? The majority can be mistaken just like any other category.

Avran_Sylt · March 13

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

I expect this is DK rework 1.0 and they'll adjust stuff as they see how it plays out now that everyone has access to the reworked DK. Small comfort, I know.

DK skills have become denigrated for 10 years. The design team isn't going to suddenly think they made an oopsie.

Look at dk wings for exampe. That skill was totally robbed of it's power a decade ago and has never been useful since then.

I'm genuinely disgusted that now the design team has messed around with that skills name and in such a sick way as to deliberately make it sound goofy but with some plausible deniability. It's absolutely shameful that people would pick on their fans in such a way by making such a joke name and be as bold face as to comment on joking around about the name on stream. How putrid.

If you're genuinely this upset over something that ultimately isn't that serious, it may be time to take a break from the game. It's not sick in the slightest to rename something, especially when people don't care to differentiate between how a word is pronounced. It's Wing Buffet (buff-it), buffet meaning to strike repeatedly. When I saw the Skill name that was the first meaning I thought of, not buffet (buff-ay).

People I know are doing more damage and such with new DK. People will like it, people will hate it. Not everyone can be made happy, but as others have said this IS an MMO, not a single-player game. Balancing needs to exist (even if it's delayed) and this rework of the Class has only been live for a couple of days, yet it's the same thing any time a big change is introduced, with people preaching doom and gloom. This whole thing happened when Subclassing first was released, people yelling that Subclassing was going to kill the game, it was going to kill this or that and everything in-between. Now it's people saying the opposite.

Nope! I not only have the right to discuss something that I'm invested in in a serious way, but it is completely normal to feel wronged as I have.

It is basic decency for changes to long standing ways of being to be both carefully considered and to not be mocked. The changes to wings doesnt meet either of those for me. That is also true because wing buffet is an awful name even if it isn't a joke. But it has now been joked around about which is both an indication that it isnt being taken seriously and a disappointment considering how wings used to be awesome before being blown up by design. Total salt on the wound moment.

It's also true that the idea of "stop caring so much man" is regressive thinking.

Dude, its moreso that your petulant demeanor makes your arguments seem irrelevant and simply that you're someone against change at all.

You're bashing with little to no constructive criticism to be found, and it seems you only ever begin to partially elaborate on various changes after being needled about your behavior.

Don't forget, it's often the loudest vocal minority that posts on forums, so take that in mind, and try to be the clearest voice.

LoL - Hold up a mirror friend.

The things that I find wrong with the DK changes have been described by me well enough in initial posts. Any elaboration of mine is icing on the cake.

If I'm against change as a principle, then why do I believe that a number of the QoL changes are quite positive?

FYI, I've had a number of players reach out to me in private to collaborate about the DK changes and share that they too are not pleased by ongoing changes. Even so, maybe there isn't a majority of DK tanks that feel the way I do. It would be impossible to know this information. Appealing to the majority though? The majority can be mistaken just like any other category.

Apologies for not reading your entire forum history before commenting, wherein you could then assume I know how you think.

I'm basing this on how you're presenting yourself in this thread, as I'm not part of your social group.

As I have said before, you in this thread started out simply calling the changes made by the devs as "morally bad", and "evil" with little to no elaboration on problems you want to see fixed for DK Tanks outside of having an agnostic passive so you can keep not using DK abilities...

Why don't you like using the DK abilities for tanking?

This_0ne · March 13

Honestly, I don't understand why the developers haven't abandoned the class system altogether. It's such an archaic relic. Last year they introduced subclasses, and this year we know they plan to rework each class one by one over the next two years. Why not just scrap the class system and distribute the existing class skill trees (and ideally all the others) among instructors and tie it all into the lore? We have skill trees tied to different organizations: the Fighters' Guild, the Mages' Guild, and the Psijics. Why not, for example, have an Akaviri NPC (like Renald, hi, I remember you) teach us the Akaviri martial arts branch, while another Pyromancer NPC (or the College of Winterhold) teaches us fire spells, other elemental spells, the "Sorcerer's" lightning, or the "Warden's" frost? And so on.

Besides all that, I believe that the "meta" of subclass isn't a problem of the subclass itself, but a problem of meta-thinking and meta-culture. Let's wait until they say that the DK (insert the name of any other potential class) is the meta class, and the other classes are garbage.

In my opinion, the meta and balance problem will persist until the developers make all existing skill trees absolutely identical in their effects, numerical values, and damage types (with only differences in animation). But they'll never do that, because it would certainly kill all the diversity of gameplay and builds.

Personofsecrets · March 13

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

I expect this is DK rework 1.0 and they'll adjust stuff as they see how it plays out now that everyone has access to the reworked DK. Small comfort, I know.

DK skills have become denigrated for 10 years. The design team isn't going to suddenly think they made an oopsie.

Look at dk wings for exampe. That skill was totally robbed of it's power a decade ago and has never been useful since then.

I'm genuinely disgusted that now the design team has messed around with that skills name and in such a sick way as to deliberately make it sound goofy but with some plausible deniability. It's absolutely shameful that people would pick on their fans in such a way by making such a joke name and be as bold face as to comment on joking around about the name on stream. How putrid.

If you're genuinely this upset over something that ultimately isn't that serious, it may be time to take a break from the game. It's not sick in the slightest to rename something, especially when people don't care to differentiate between how a word is pronounced. It's Wing Buffet (buff-it), buffet meaning to strike repeatedly. When I saw the Skill name that was the first meaning I thought of, not buffet (buff-ay).

People I know are doing more damage and such with new DK. People will like it, people will hate it. Not everyone can be made happy, but as others have said this IS an MMO, not a single-player game. Balancing needs to exist (even if it's delayed) and this rework of the Class has only been live for a couple of days, yet it's the same thing any time a big change is introduced, with people preaching doom and gloom. This whole thing happened when Subclassing first was released, people yelling that Subclassing was going to kill the game, it was going to kill this or that and everything in-between. Now it's people saying the opposite.

Nope! I not only have the right to discuss something that I'm invested in in a serious way, but it is completely normal to feel wronged as I have.

It is basic decency for changes to long standing ways of being to be both carefully considered and to not be mocked. The changes to wings doesnt meet either of those for me. That is also true because wing buffet is an awful name even if it isn't a joke. But it has now been joked around about which is both an indication that it isnt being taken seriously and a disappointment considering how wings used to be awesome before being blown up by design. Total salt on the wound moment.

It's also true that the idea of "stop caring so much man" is regressive thinking.

Dude, its moreso that your petulant demeanor makes your arguments seem irrelevant and simply that you're someone against change at all.

You're bashing with little to no constructive criticism to be found, and it seems you only ever begin to partially elaborate on various changes after being needled about your behavior.

Don't forget, it's often the loudest vocal minority that posts on forums, so take that in mind, and try to be the clearest voice.

LoL - Hold up a mirror friend.

The things that I find wrong with the DK changes have been described by me well enough in initial posts. Any elaboration of mine is icing on the cake.

If I'm against change as a principle, then why do I believe that a number of the QoL changes are quite positive?

FYI, I've had a number of players reach out to me in private to collaborate about the DK changes and share that they too are not pleased by ongoing changes. Even so, maybe there isn't a majority of DK tanks that feel the way I do. It would be impossible to know this information. Appealing to the majority though? The majority can be mistaken just like any other category.

Apologies for not reading your entire forum history before commenting, wherein you could then assume I know how you think.

I'm basing this on how you're presenting yourself in this thread, as I'm not part of your social group.

As I have said before, you in this thread started out simply calling the changes made by the devs as "morally bad", and "evil" with little to no elaboration on problems you want to see fixed for DK Tanks outside of having an agnostic passive so you can keep not using DK abilities...

Why don't you like using the DK abilities for tanking?

If you are really that interested in me, then maybe you should write to me via my DMS. That said, what I've written here is sufficient to convey what I find wrong with the DK.

There is also the additional context that the design team has already received copious feedback and made their choices. They have even discussed some feedback on stream which they didn't post about on these forums or in an article.

Though it is certainly the case that some of the changes, lets say the look of "earthspike mantle" for example, were so bad that they shouldnt have happened to begin with or require feedback. They still got feedback regarding these indignities too, but the entire happening shows that the design team isnt necessarily on the same page as players. There is a disconnect and one that probably exists due to the inherent differences between player and designer.

Generally speaking though, DK abilities are bad and a number of them have gotten worse over time after nerfs. This dynamic has transpired simultaneously as other classes have been made which outshine the DK. The class update doesnt address those issues, but rather removes a few more iconic identity defining tools of the class. This is from the perspective of being a DK tank in all content where being a DK tank is relevant. Designers have this feedback from the class survey too.

Avran_Sylt · March 13

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

I expect this is DK rework 1.0 and they'll adjust stuff as they see how it plays out now that everyone has access to the reworked DK. Small comfort, I know.

DK skills have become denigrated for 10 years. The design team isn't going to suddenly think they made an oopsie.

Look at dk wings for exampe. That skill was totally robbed of it's power a decade ago and has never been useful since then.

I'm genuinely disgusted that now the design team has messed around with that skills name and in such a sick way as to deliberately make it sound goofy but with some plausible deniability. It's absolutely shameful that people would pick on their fans in such a way by making such a joke name and be as bold face as to comment on joking around about the name on stream. How putrid.

If you're genuinely this upset over something that ultimately isn't that serious, it may be time to take a break from the game. It's not sick in the slightest to rename something, especially when people don't care to differentiate between how a word is pronounced. It's Wing Buffet (buff-it), buffet meaning to strike repeatedly. When I saw the Skill name that was the first meaning I thought of, not buffet (buff-ay).

People I know are doing more damage and such with new DK. People will like it, people will hate it. Not everyone can be made happy, but as others have said this IS an MMO, not a single-player game. Balancing needs to exist (even if it's delayed) and this rework of the Class has only been live for a couple of days, yet it's the same thing any time a big change is introduced, with people preaching doom and gloom. This whole thing happened when Subclassing first was released, people yelling that Subclassing was going to kill the game, it was going to kill this or that and everything in-between. Now it's people saying the opposite.

Nope! I not only have the right to discuss something that I'm invested in in a serious way, but it is completely normal to feel wronged as I have.

It is basic decency for changes to long standing ways of being to be both carefully considered and to not be mocked. The changes to wings doesnt meet either of those for me. That is also true because wing buffet is an awful name even if it isn't a joke. But it has now been joked around about which is both an indication that it isnt being taken seriously and a disappointment considering how wings used to be awesome before being blown up by design. Total salt on the wound moment.

It's also true that the idea of "stop caring so much man" is regressive thinking.

Dude, its moreso that your petulant demeanor makes your arguments seem irrelevant and simply that you're someone against change at all.

You're bashing with little to no constructive criticism to be found, and it seems you only ever begin to partially elaborate on various changes after being needled about your behavior.

Don't forget, it's often the loudest vocal minority that posts on forums, so take that in mind, and try to be the clearest voice.

LoL - Hold up a mirror friend.

The things that I find wrong with the DK changes have been described by me well enough in initial posts. Any elaboration of mine is icing on the cake.

If I'm against change as a principle, then why do I believe that a number of the QoL changes are quite positive?

FYI, I've had a number of players reach out to me in private to collaborate about the DK changes and share that they too are not pleased by ongoing changes. Even so, maybe there isn't a majority of DK tanks that feel the way I do. It would be impossible to know this information. Appealing to the majority though? The majority can be mistaken just like any other category.

Apologies for not reading your entire forum history before commenting, wherein you could then assume I know how you think.

I'm basing this on how you're presenting yourself in this thread, as I'm not part of your social group.

As I have said before, you in this thread started out simply calling the changes made by the devs as "morally bad", and "evil" with little to no elaboration on problems you want to see fixed for DK Tanks outside of having an agnostic passive so you can keep not using DK abilities...

Why don't you like using the DK abilities for tanking?

If you are really that interested in me, then maybe you should write to me via my DMS. That said, what I've written here is sufficient to convey what I find wrong with the DK.

There is also the additional context that the design team has already received copious feedback and made their choices. They have even discussed some feedback on stream which they didn't post about on these forums or in an article.

Though it is certainly the case that some of the changes, lets say the look of "earthspike mantle" for example, were so bad that they shouldnt have happened to begin with or require feedback. They still got feedback regarding these indignities too, but the entire happening shows that the design team isnt necessarily on the same page as players. There is a disconnect and one that probably exists due to the inherent differences between player and designer.

Generally speaking though, DK abilities are bad and a number of them have gotten worse over time after nerfs. This dynamic has transpired simultaneously as other classes have been made which outshine the DK. The class update doesnt address those issues, but rather removes a few more iconic identity defining tools of the class. This is from the perspective of being a DK tank in all content where being a DK tank is relevant. Designers have this feedback from the class survey too.

I do have an interest in your opinion, but TBH DMs kind of miss the point of an open forum for discussion about topics relating to the game.

If you feel what you're posting openly sufficiently conveys your opinion, gotcha.

I do want the game to succeed, and to have a variety of engaging methods of gameplay. Subclassing IMO should focus more on niche interactions rather than being the end-all be all for raw stat advantages (and mob grouping).

To that end, making each class at least decent for tanking, and hopefully more engaging than simply being relegated to a support role with the only difficulty coming from Trials mechanics (and not actually the abilities you use on enemies themselves, being more of a supporter role), is something I am interested in (I used to tank way back when).

Avran_Sylt · March 13

This_0ne wrote: »

Honestly, I don't understand why the developers haven't abandoned the class system altogether. It's such an archaic relic. Last year they introduced subclasses, and this year we know they plan to rework each class one by one over the next two years. Why not just scrap the class system and distribute the existing class skill trees (and ideally all the others) among instructors and tie it all into the lore? We have skill trees tied to different organizations: the Fighters' Guild, the Mages' Guild, and the Psijics. Why not, for example, have an Akaviri NPC (like Renald, hi, I remember you) teach us the Akaviri martial arts branch, while another Pyromancer NPC (or the College of Winterhold) teaches us fire spells, other elemental spells, the "Sorcerer's" lightning, or the "Warden's" frost? And so on.

Besides all that, I believe that the "meta" of subclass isn't a problem of the subclass itself, but a problem of meta-thinking and meta-culture. Let's wait until they say that the DK (insert the name of any other potential class) is the meta class, and the other classes are garbage.

In my opinion, the meta problem will persist until the developers make all existing skill trees absolutely identical in their effects, numerical values, and damage types (with only differences in animation). But they'll never do that, because it would certainly kill all the diversity of gameplay and builds.

Generally speaking this will inevitably cause one specific skill-line layout to become the best for a given role. Still will with the class refresh but instead of having thematic/visual cohesion within a specific group of abilities, it's all fragmented (like we have now).

Gabriel_H · March 13

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Templar tanking, from a tanking point of view, needs very little improving.

There is little work that needs to be done to the class itself, it's the lack of group buffs that are the issue.

The distinction being made here is an extreme false dichotomy. Tanking IS providing group buffs while doing some other things.

Group buffing is a support role, like a bard.

It's really only something associated with tanks and healers in ESO because those roles are fairly simple already and need other things to be interesting.

Tanking is simple, tanking well is not. It requires signifcant resource management, situational awareness beyond what a DD needs, and a understanding of the game mechs to a greater degree than other roles. Some examples:

As a DD you know not to stand in stupid. As a tank you need to know which stupid you can stand in and which you can't. It's the difference between moving a boss unnecessarily or not. You need to know which adds do a flurry attack, which will eat your resources on block, while mitigating the huge heavy attack from the boss, and manage your resources accordingly. You also need to understand the underlying mitigation mechanics. When is Major Prot needed and when it isn't - what could you have slotted instead of a Major Prot buff?! (Fun Fact: Major Protection is NEVER a 10% damage reduction, it's always less, going down as low as less than 0.3% on blocked hits).

Most fights in the game don't push your average tank to those kinds of limits, but the HM in Dungeons & Trials do. Buffing is associated with tanks and healers because the mindset is "well they aren't doing much". That very much depends on the level of the fight, as well as the fight itself. There are fights were a tank slotting a skill that helps them tank rather than a group buff will make the clear easier, sometimes it's the other way around - the latter is particularly prevelent in earlier trials, but ZOS have for the most part started to move away from that, especially in dungeons.

Personofsecrets · March 13

This_0ne wrote: »

Honestly, I don't understand why the developers haven't abandoned the class system altogether. It's such an archaic relic. Last year they introduced subclasses, and this year we know they plan to rework each class one by one over the next two years. Why not just scrap the class system and distribute the existing class skill trees (and ideally all the others) among instructors and tie it all into the lore? We have skill trees tied to different organizations: the Fighters' Guild, the Mages' Guild, and the Psijics. Why not, for example, have an Akaviri NPC (like Renald, hi, I remember you) teach us the Akaviri martial arts branch, while another Pyromancer NPC (or the College of Winterhold) teaches us fire spells, other elemental spells, the "Sorcerer's" lightning, or the "Warden's" frost? And so on.

Besides all that, I believe that the "meta" of subclass isn't a problem of the subclass itself, but a problem of meta-thinking and meta-culture. Let's wait until they say that the DK (insert the name of any other potential class) is the meta class, and the other classes are garbage.

In my opinion, the meta and balance problem will persist until the developers make all existing skill trees absolutely identical in their effects, numerical values, and damage types (with only differences in animation). But they'll never do that, because it would certainly kill all the diversity of gameplay and builds.

Yup! I also think that any subclassing issues arruse due to particular overperfotming skills. This is probably why Magma was nerfed pre-subclassing so that it wouldnt be a problem skill with players stacking ultimate gain based passives.

ADarklore · March 13

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

steamcharts doesnt seem to agree with most of you guys. Last patch didnt even move the needle. I really dont think the class refreshes are going to have the effect you all were hoping for.

You are comparing apples and oranges. At this time in previous years the release of new dungeon DLCs would increase the player numbers. There has been no DLC release this year.

Any change in numbers is unlikely to come until new content is released, and the numbers won't be as spiky as previous years as we are getting more smaller releases over a longer period of time.

Class refreshes are not going to spike numbers, but rather shore up the underlying constant, which is still holding steady at this point. They aren't yet back to pre-pandemic numbers (being about 12,000 this time of year) but they holding around 10,000 which speaks to a solid loyal base.

Let's also not forget that most PC players don't play on Steam but use the ESO client... hence the reason Steam charts aren't super accurate as far as PC players go.

Rungar · March 14

maybe 10 years ago when steam had issues but certainly not anymore. Id wager more people have it on steam than any other platform at this point. This is the strangest game. Turnover must be insanely bad..its always in the top 100, often top 50 ( when on sale for $5.00) for sales but never in the top 100 for players..usually around 150's. Existing players must spend quite a bit on this game.

content is winding down, players are winding down..monetization schemes are outdated, content and gameplay are outdated so they are trying to adapt to seasons instead but i doubt itll be enough, it is what it is. Might get a couple more years out of it.

LordDragonSlayer · March 14

I want to thank everyone that posted and with this update, I am sure a lot will disagree with I have posted here but that is okay because having differing thoughts is what makes the world interesting.

Last night, I did a trial with the normal Friday group as a base DK using Earthen Heart skill line and subclassed into Winter's Embrace and Soldier or Apocrypha.

I was a bit concerned with sustain because everything got changed and moved around but did not really have any except where I messed up but even then it was not too bad.

I was so far over the resist cap it was crazy and then I wished there was no cap in PVE.

So, what is my one skill? Igneous Shield. I was like wow I am a DK with only one DK skill even after the updates/changes. So, I looked closely at all the DK skill line passives and skills and found them to be substantially inferior to other class skill lines and passives.

Are there a few passives that I think are decent/okay? Sure such as:

Mountain Giant to regen samina but have to be careful to not get one shot,
The Storm Voice if enough DK skills are slotted to regen when using an ult
Heart of Stone for all the time Minor Resolve
A Soul Ablaze if you need an additional 8% heals
Combustion for sustain but only if you can apply burning
Burnished Scales for 10% block mitigation, and Elder Dragon for Minor Brutality

Are there a few skills that I think are decent/okay? Sure such as:

Igneous Shield to shield myself and others and to stack with my other shield
Disintegrating Dragonfire to apply Major Breach
Magma Shell to shield allies and for those oh crap moments like I had last night because I looked away for 1 second and almost died. However, I did not have this slotted but barrier which hit everyone with a a bigger shield.
Either Standard morph to increase weapon and spell damage
Hearth and Home to heals allies and give them Minor Fortitude and Minor Heroism and then Major Protection to the tank only
Either Core of Flame morph to restore mag and stamina

The other passives are based around doing damage which can be somewhat useful to provide more tank overall damage but I think it would still be minimal in comparison to a dps but maybe it would help.

The other group skills that could be slotted just are not that great when compared to other skill lines. Even those mentioned above are not that great in comparison to other skills from other classes.

I know they went the Thematic route but IMO that was a huge mistake given that it will take at least 2 years for the Arcanist to be in the same state maybe, terrible. I believe that there were other options that could have been used and still maintained a role based type approach and increased the usefulness of all three roles. Plus they could have introduced something that would have made playing a pure class more attractive.

As a DK tank I can say that we are not needed anymore and we are no longer the go to tank which saddens me.

If you are a healer, as it is right now, there is nothing a healer would want from any DK skill line. Cauterize is an awful for any healer.

If you are a DK dps, then your time to shine is now because I fear when the Werewolf and Warden and then the other class updates come out, DKs will be rarely played. There is nothing I see that competes with the beam builds other than maybe the Dragonfire Breath morphs. To be competitive with the beam build, more cleave damage is needed.

Even after all the updates, there is not much a DK brings to any group with the exception of one skill and that is the Standard.

I personally think the updates to the DK class were 100% a failure except for dps. So, RIP DK tank you will be missed.

Frayton · March 14

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

What I do not understand is why put something into the game and then turn around and try to kill it?

It's literally their design philosophy. "Balance"

It's a reason I get so annoyed by ESO and stop playing for long periods of time and no longer spend any substantial time or money on it. Just when I'm starting to enjoy something or finally made some progress, it gets destroyed in the next or future patch.

Major_Mangle · March 14

For me the biggest problem is the never-ending escalating power creep in both PvP and (especially) in PvE. Doesn't matter if it comes from subclassing or "pure class" buffs, the results are the same. In my opinion the game doesn't need to "buff everyone" to be on par with subclassing and whatnot, but rather reduce the power fantasy across the board (this goes for both PvP and PvE). A stat squish is desperately needed and should've been done years ago. As much as I understand that people don't like to become weaker, a never-ending power creep isn't healthy for the game's longevity. Every now and then a reduction and rescaling of power can be a good and healthy thing.

Personofsecrets · March 14

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

I want to thank everyone that posted and with this update, I am sure a lot will disagree with I have posted here but that is okay because having differing thoughts is what makes the world interesting.

Last night, I did a trial with the normal Friday group as a base DK using Earthen Heart skill line and subclassed into Winter's Embrace and Soldier or Apocrypha.

I was a bit concerned with sustain because everything got changed and moved around but did not really have any except where I messed up but even then it was not too bad.

I was so far over the resist cap it was crazy and then I wished there was no cap in PVE.

So, what is my one skill? Igneous Shield. I was like wow I am a DK with only one DK skill even after the updates/changes. So, I looked closely at all the DK skill line passives and skills and found them to be substantially inferior to other class skill lines and passives.

Are there a few passives that I think are decent/okay? Sure such as:
Mountain Giant to regen samina but have to be careful to not get one shot,

The Storm Voice if enough DK skills are slotted to regen when using an ult

Heart of Stone for all the time Minor Resolve

A Soul Ablaze if you need an additional 8% heals

Combustion for sustain but only if you can apply burning

Burnished Scales for 10% block mitigation, and Elder Dragon for Minor Brutality

Are there a few skills that I think are decent/okay? Sure such as:
Igneous Shield to shield myself and others and to stack with my other shield

Disintegrating Dragonfire to apply Major Breach

Magma Shell to shield allies and for those oh crap moments like I had last night because I looked away for 1 second and almost died. However, I did not have this slotted but barrier which hit everyone with a a bigger shield.

Either Standard morph to increase weapon and spell damage

Hearth and Home to heals allies and give them Minor Fortitude and Minor Heroism and then Major Protection to the tank only

Either Core of Flame morph to restore mag and stamina

The other passives are based around doing damage which can be somewhat useful to provide more tank overall damage but I think it would still be minimal in comparison to a dps but maybe it would help.

The other group skills that could be slotted just are not that great when compared to other skill lines. Even those mentioned above are not that great in comparison to other skills from other classes.

I know they went the Thematic route but IMO that was a huge mistake given that it will take at least 2 years for the Arcanist to be in the same state maybe, terrible. I believe that there were other options that could have been used and still maintained a role based type approach and increased the usefulness of all three roles. Plus they could have introduced something that would have made playing a pure class more attractive.

As a DK tank I can say that we are not needed anymore and we are no longer the go to tank which saddens me.

If you are a healer, as it is right now, there is nothing a healer would want from any DK skill line. Cauterize is an awful for any healer.

If you are a DK dps, then your time to shine is now because I fear when the Werewolf and Warden and then the other class updates come out, DKs will be rarely played. There is nothing I see that competes with the beam builds other than maybe the Dragonfire Breath morphs. To be competitive with the beam build, more cleave damage is needed.

Even after all the updates, there is not much a DK brings to any group with the exception of one skill and that is the Standard.

I personally think the updates to the DK class were 100% a failure except for dps. So, RIP DK tank you will be missed.

This post 100%

It's actually wild that single skills in the other classes can outshine the entire kit of the one class that has had an identity as "tank" for the past 10 years.

The changes have been extremly inconsiderate for DK tank players, a complete farce in achieving the class updates stated objectives, and shows a complete disregard for properly balancing the DK in a game where it has had it's identity stripped away, bit by bit, for the past decade.

Gabriel_H · March 14

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

Even after all the updates, there is not much a DK brings to any group with the exception of one skill and that is the Standard.

Off-balance on demand (which is a rarity).
Minor Vulnerability
Major Brutality
Major Sorcery
Minor Brutality
Major Cowardice
Minor Protection
Major Fortiude (Limited)
Minor Courage (Limited)
Major Breach (Within the class)
Minor Breach (Within the class)
Minor Fortiude (Conditional)
Minor Heroism (Conditional)
5% Increased Flame Damage
Standard of Might - inlcuding independent damage reduction from Maims
A huge damage shield for uh-oh moments.

Yeahhhh ... no group utlity there.

MSattrtand · March 14

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

If you are a healer, as it is right now, there is nothing a healer would want from any DK skill line. Cauterize is an awful for any healer.

This is not correct. Ardent is a pretty good skill line for healers. Standard is a good support ulti (though it can be provided by DDs). Cauterise is a good skill - I've checked my logs where I was running it, and it was 2nd or 3rd skill by HPS - it's good for mobile fights. Fire Keeper was the top 1 skill by HPS by a margin - it's just really strong, and it provides Minor Heroism, which is hard to get in pug runs.

You know, Restoring Light was 3rd most popular skill line for healers in previous patches. And it is mostly used just for heals and Kosh synergy. Now we also have Ardent with heals and Minor Heroism - it has a good chance to become the 3rd/4th most popular healer skill line in this patch.

LittlePinkDot · March 14

shadyjane62 wrote: »

For me 2025 never happened. I have been a Templar for 11 years. I saw no valid reason to change to a partial something else most likely ending with an ugly green beam.

That's awfully boring.. I'm an altoholic. I got 11 characters. 🤣

CatalinaWineMixer2 · March 17

Subclassing is cherry picking with a calculator. It is not theory crafting. It should have never happened and needs to go.