Personofsecrets wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit would be all about balancing 'pure' classes if such a thing were appropriate.

Except this is Elder Scrolls, and for 30 years, this world existed where player choice mattered more than some half-baked dev-driven idea of "class".

But this is an MMO, not a single-player game. Your choices can affect others.

Also, player choice includes the choice to play a pure class. But that isn't a viable choice if pure classes are weak.

I honestly don't get the complaints here. If you subclass, you'll still be strong. Pure classes will be strong in a different way. You can't have it all. Your choices will matter, and that's good.

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

Ok no offense, but have you even tried using the new DK skills?

If you're upset about Battle Roar, a sustain passive, being nerfed, it really feels like you haven't even attempted to use the new skills.

Heart of Flame gives way more sustain than Battle Roar ever did (nigh infinite in fact) and also serves as a powerful health based heal. It's a far better tanking skill than DKs had last patch.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit would be all about balancing 'pure' classes if such a thing were appropriate.

Except this is Elder Scrolls, and for 30 years, this world existed where player choice mattered more than some half-baked dev-driven idea of "class".

But this is an MMO, not a single-player game. Your choices can affect others.

Also, player choice includes the choice to play a pure class. But that isn't a viable choice if pure classes are weak.

I honestly don't get the complaints here. If you subclass, you'll still be strong. Pure classes will be strong in a different way. You can't have it all. Your choices will matter, and that's good.

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

Ok no offense, but have you even tried using the new DK skills?

If you're upset about Battle Roar, a sustain passive, being nerfed, it really feels like you haven't even attempted to use the new skills.

Heart of Flame gives way more sustain than Battle Roar ever did (nigh infinite in fact) and also serves as a powerful health based heal. It's a far better tanking skill than DKs had last patch.

Suggesting that players be happy about replacing an active skill with Heart of Flame due to the heavy handed treating of Battle Roar is a bad suggestion.

As mentioned, DK skills are bad for tanking. Some even lost utility with the most recent update! If I didnt find it worth using more than 1 dk skill per bar in the past, then I certainly won't now.

Igneous Shield lost utility and is no longer worth using. DK chains lost the thing that made it cool for tanking and that too fails to be worth using now.

An identity update shouldnt upend skills in this way and it certainly shouldnt weaken passive abilities, remove beloved passives, or make skills less attractive. But all of those things have happened.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit would be all about balancing 'pure' classes if such a thing were appropriate.

Except this is Elder Scrolls, and for 30 years, this world existed where player choice mattered more than some half-baked dev-driven idea of "class".

But this is an MMO, not a single-player game. Your choices can affect others.

Also, player choice includes the choice to play a pure class. But that isn't a viable choice if pure classes are weak.

I honestly don't get the complaints here. If you subclass, you'll still be strong. Pure classes will be strong in a different way. You can't have it all. Your choices will matter, and that's good.

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

Ok no offense, but have you even tried using the new DK skills?

If you're upset about Battle Roar, a sustain passive, being nerfed, it really feels like you haven't even attempted to use the new skills.

Heart of Flame gives way more sustain than Battle Roar ever did (nigh infinite in fact) and also serves as a powerful health based heal. It's a far better tanking skill than DKs had last patch.

Suggesting that players be happy about replacing an active skill with Heart of Flame due to the heavy handed treating of Battle Roar is a bad suggestion.

As mentioned, DK skills are bad for tanking. Some even lost utility with the most recent update! If I didnt find it worth using more than 1 dk skill per bar in the past, then I certainly won't now.

Igneous Shield lost utility and is no longer worth using. DK chains lost the thing that made it cool for tanking and that too fails to be worth using now.

An identity update shouldnt upend skills in this way and it certainly shouldnt weaken passive abilities, remove beloved passives, or make skills less attractive. But all of those thinfs have happened.

If Igneos Shield lost its utility and is no longer worth using, you have room on your skill bar to slots Heart of Flame now. You can also slot Hearth and Home instead of Heroic Slash. That's another tool to stay alive.
What do you think made DK chains "cool for tanking" that they no longer have now? The way I see it DK chains providing Minor Brutality to the group through the Draconic Power passives is a pretty good change. That's already three DK skills to increase the value of The Storm Voice Battle Roar (I still think it should be called Reman's Battle Cry). Plus an ultimate if you are running one.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit would be all about balancing 'pure' classes if such a thing were appropriate.

Except this is Elder Scrolls, and for 30 years, this world existed where player choice mattered more than some half-baked dev-driven idea of "class".

But this is an MMO, not a single-player game. Your choices can affect others.

Also, player choice includes the choice to play a pure class. But that isn't a viable choice if pure classes are weak.

I honestly don't get the complaints here. If you subclass, you'll still be strong. Pure classes will be strong in a different way. You can't have it all. Your choices will matter, and that's good.

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

Ok no offense, but have you even tried using the new DK skills?

If you're upset about Battle Roar, a sustain passive, being nerfed, it really feels like you haven't even attempted to use the new skills.

Heart of Flame gives way more sustain than Battle Roar ever did (nigh infinite in fact) and also serves as a powerful health based heal. It's a far better tanking skill than DKs had last patch.

Suggesting that players be happy about replacing an active skill with Heart of Flame due to the heavy handed treating of Battle Roar is a bad suggestion.

As mentioned, DK skills are bad for tanking. Some even lost utility with the most recent update! If I didnt find it worth using more than 1 dk skill per bar in the past, then I certainly won't now.

Igneous Shield lost utility and is no longer worth using. DK chains lost the thing that made it cool for tanking and that too fails to be worth using now.

An identity update shouldnt upend skills in this way and it certainly shouldnt weaken passive abilities, remove beloved passives, or make skills less attractive. But all of those thinfs have happened.

If Igneos Shield lost its utility and is no longer worth using, you have room on your skill bar to slots Heart of Flame now. You can also slot Hearth and Home instead of Heroic Slash. That's another tool to stay alive.
What do you think made DK chains "cool for tanking" that they no longer have now? The way I see it DK chains providing Minor Brutality to the group through the Draconic Power passives is a pretty good change. That's already three DK skills to increase the value of The Storm Voice Battle Roar (I still think it should be called Reman's Battle Cry). Plus an ultimate if you are running one.

Your suggestion is so far away from a fair trade in strength, so far away from an apples to apples comparison, and so inconsiderate of the other skills that player may want to use (instead of having to use a whole extra skill to compensate for the passive losses) that your motivation for the idea is in question.

Igneous shield could shield group members, provide a buff to heals, trigger helping hands which is now gone, and trigger minor brutality, one of the 2 unique things that DK can provide to a group.

That is gone. It's all gone. There is no replacing that dynamic. It doesn't exist. Stop playing pretend to the contrary.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

I expect this is DK rework 1.0 and they'll adjust stuff as they see how it plays out now that everyone has access to the reworked DK. Small comfort, I know.

DK skills have become denigrated for 10 years. The design team isn't going to suddenly think they made an oopsie.

Look at dk wings for exampe. That skill was totally robbed of it's power a decade ago and has never been useful since then.

I'm genuinely disgusted that now the design team has messed around with that skills name and in such a sick way as to deliberately make it sound goofy but with some plausible deniability. It's absolutely shameful that people would pick on their fans in such a way by making such a joke name and be as bold face as to comment on joking around about the name on stream. How putrid.

If you're genuinely this upset over something that ultimately isn't that serious, it may be time to take a break from the game. It's not sick in the slightest to rename something, especially when people don't care to differentiate between how a word is pronounced. It's Wing Buffet (buff-it), buffet meaning to strike repeatedly. When I saw the Skill name that was the first meaning I thought of, not buffet (buff-ay).

People I know are doing more damage and such with new DK. People will like it, people will hate it. Not everyone can be made happy, but as others have said this IS an MMO, not a single-player game. Balancing needs to exist (even if it's delayed) and this rework of the Class has only been live for a couple of days, yet it's the same thing any time a big change is introduced, with people preaching doom and gloom. This whole thing happened when Subclassing first was released, people yelling that Subclassing was going to kill the game, it was going to kill this or that and everything in-between. Now it's people saying the opposite.

Nope! I not only have the right to discuss something that I'm invested in in a serious way, but it is completely normal to feel wronged as I have.

It is basic decency for changes to long standing ways of being to be both carefully considered and to not be mocked. The changes to wings doesnt meet either of those for me. That is also true because wing buffet is an awful name even if it isn't a joke. But it has now been joked around about which is both an indication that it isnt being taken seriously and a disappointment considering how wings used to be awesome before being blown up by design. Total salt on the wound moment.

It's also true that the idea of "stop caring so much man" is regressive thinking.

You have a right to discuss things and express disappointment. That doesn't give you a right to call the devs "sick" and "putrid" (your words), nor insinuate that they made this change out of spite for the players.

This is a live service game. Live service games change with patches. If you're not even willing to attempt to use some of the very powerful group utility skills they added with this update, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

By your own admission, you were only using one DK skill for tanking in the first place, so why are you even upset? Swap to a different class. Not to mention, most of what you're claiming was "lost" was either moved to a different skill or can be easily substituted with a Scribing skill.

Agree. I'm having fun with my tank and even leveling a DK to use as dps after swapping to pure class DK damage the other night for a pure class DK trial. I can see bring disappointed in some things but I was encouraged that the dev team was really present in the class refresh discussion. They even took things back and made changes. Idk if I'll pure class DK tank because I think I can bring more utility but I would for sure if asked by a raid lead.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

I expect this is DK rework 1.0 and they'll adjust stuff as they see how it plays out now that everyone has access to the reworked DK. Small comfort, I know.

DK skills have become denigrated for 10 years. The design team isn't going to suddenly think they made an oopsie.

Look at dk wings for exampe. That skill was totally robbed of it's power a decade ago and has never been useful since then.

I'm genuinely disgusted that now the design team has messed around with that skills name and in such a sick way as to deliberately make it sound goofy but with some plausible deniability. It's absolutely shameful that people would pick on their fans in such a way by making such a joke name and be as bold face as to comment on joking around about the name on stream. How putrid.

If you're genuinely this upset over something that ultimately isn't that serious, it may be time to take a break from the game. It's not sick in the slightest to rename something, especially when people don't care to differentiate between how a word is pronounced. It's Wing Buffet (buff-it), buffet meaning to strike repeatedly. When I saw the Skill name that was the first meaning I thought of, not buffet (buff-ay).

People I know are doing more damage and such with new DK. People will like it, people will hate it. Not everyone can be made happy, but as others have said this IS an MMO, not a single-player game. Balancing needs to exist (even if it's delayed) and this rework of the Class has only been live for a couple of days, yet it's the same thing any time a big change is introduced, with people preaching doom and gloom. This whole thing happened when Subclassing first was released, people yelling that Subclassing was going to kill the game, it was going to kill this or that and everything in-between. Now it's people saying the opposite.

Nope! I not only have the right to discuss something that I'm invested in in a serious way, but it is completely normal to feel wronged as I have.

It is basic decency for changes to long standing ways of being to be both carefully considered and to not be mocked. The changes to wings doesnt meet either of those for me. That is also true because wing buffet is an awful name even if it isn't a joke. But it has now been joked around about which is both an indication that it isnt being taken seriously and a disappointment considering how wings used to be awesome before being blown up by design. Total salt on the wound moment.

It's also true that the idea of "stop caring so much man" is regressive thinking.

You have a right to discuss things and express disappointment. That doesn't give you a right to call the devs "sick" and "putrid" (your words), nor insinuate that they made this change out of spite for the players.

This is a live service game. Live service games change with patches. If you're not even willing to attempt to use some of the very powerful group utility skills they added with this update, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

By your own admission, you were only using one DK skill for tanking in the first place, so why are you even upset? Swap to a different class. Not to mention, most of what you're claiming was "lost" was either moved to a different skill or can be easily substituted with a Scribing skill.

I have the right to use that word choice by the nature of the dynamics that are at play meeting my own free will, thoughts, and expectations.

If my thoughts on the design comments are a misinterpretation, then maybe there should have been better communication about the poor naming choice during the PTS cycle rather than the somewhat awkward non-serious tone that was expressed on a recent live stream.

If my thoughts are mere insinuation, even then they wouldn't be without some evidence based on previous oopsie doopsies of design team members made on streams.

The bottom line is that I can imagine if I were in design, then I would take the comments here pretty seriously and consider adjusting both tone and thinking process when coming up with changes and new naming conventions. If a number of players find names so bad that they could be AI generated, then the names are problematic to say the least. To say the most, if someone had to justify a wacky name because they saw the word used once in WoW, then that is also questionable design behavior. Why did the name have to be justified? Why was a different game used as a metric for whats okay?

Regarding balance, the number of DK skill lines that I have used ia not a constant. I have played a single character for more than 10 years and played a single role. My observation about the number of DK skills used in tanking comes after reviewing screenshots of builds that I have used over the course of years. I know well the goods and bads that have come with the DK over the years. I know what the DK identity is.

Whether or not there are "very powerful" group utility skills hasn't been my thinking about the balance changes. And I will question the notion. That said, my thinking has been about the very core way of playing, call it an identity, that was stolen away be recent changes which includes major changes to passive skills.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit would be all about balancing 'pure' classes if such a thing were appropriate.

Except this is Elder Scrolls, and for 30 years, this world existed where player choice mattered more than some half-baked dev-driven idea of "class".

But this is an MMO, not a single-player game. Your choices can affect others.

Also, player choice includes the choice to play a pure class. But that isn't a viable choice if pure classes are weak.

I honestly don't get the complaints here. If you subclass, you'll still be strong. Pure classes will be strong in a different way. You can't have it all. Your choices will matter, and that's good.

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

Ok no offense, but have you even tried using the new DK skills?

If you're upset about Battle Roar, a sustain passive, being nerfed, it really feels like you haven't even attempted to use the new skills.

Heart of Flame gives way more sustain than Battle Roar ever did (nigh infinite in fact) and also serves as a powerful health based heal. It's a far better tanking skill than DKs had last patch.

Suggesting that players be happy about replacing an active skill with Heart of Flame due to the heavy handed treating of Battle Roar is a bad suggestion.

As mentioned, DK skills are bad for tanking. Some even lost utility with the most recent update! If I didnt find it worth using more than 1 dk skill per bar in the past, then I certainly won't now.

Igneous Shield lost utility and is no longer worth using. DK chains lost the thing that made it cool for tanking and that too fails to be worth using now.

An identity update shouldnt upend skills in this way and it certainly shouldnt weaken passive abilities, remove beloved passives, or make skills less attractive. But all of those thinfs have happened.

If Igneos Shield lost its utility and is no longer worth using, you have room on your skill bar to slots Heart of Flame now. You can also slot Hearth and Home instead of Heroic Slash. That's another tool to stay alive.
What do you think made DK chains "cool for tanking" that they no longer have now? The way I see it DK chains providing Minor Brutality to the group through the Draconic Power passives is a pretty good change. That's already three DK skills to increase the value of The Storm Voice Battle Roar (I still think it should be called Reman's Battle Cry). Plus an ultimate if you are running one.

Your suggestion is so far away from a fair trade in strength, so far away from an apples to apples comparison, and so inconsiderate of the other skills that player may want to use (instead of having to use a whole extra skill to compensate for the passive losses) that your motivation for the idea is in question.

Igneous shield could shield group members, provide a buff to heals, trigger helping hands which is now gone, and trigger minor brutality, one of the 2 unique things that DK can provide to a group.

That is gone. It's all gone. There is no replacing that dynamic. It doesn't exist. Stop playing pretend to the contrary.

I see. Yes, it's unfortunate if the shielding on allies is the reason you chose to run the skill. From a Templar tank, I've been running Ulfsild's Shielding variant for that function before subclassing let me steal Igneos Shield. It's decently useful even if you have to get used to its activation condition. But you can also just trust your healers to take this load off you. If group member deaths are what's holding you back, there is no shame in using Brands of Imperium in 4man content. Helping Hand has a worthy replacement in Heart of Flame if you ask me.

This change is, unfortunately, doing exactly what was intended. There was too much power in Earthen Heart in the context of subclassing. Minor Brutality, Magma Armor, a source of Major Brutality, Petrify, stamina sustain, sustain from ulting. Now as a Templar tank it made me quite happy that I could just steal the strongest part of the DK for myself, but that's just a side effect of the same issues subclassing introduced to PvP and DPSing.

They should probably change the line in Elder Dragon from "when activating a Draconic Might ability" to "when activating a Dragonknight ability" and that would fix the issue for you without breaking too much.
Edit: Actually the more I think about it, this might be the perfect solution, because it would also make Templar tanks fill the shoes of the DK tank more easily because any DK, be that healer or DPS, could comfortably provide the group with Minor Brutality so long as they are running Draconic Might, at least the DPS will and the healer might (because Dragonblood can now provide AOE heal and Minor Courage).

I am not aware of the pros and cons of Templar tanking. I do have a couple of thoughts though.

The strength of igneous came from all of the combined components that I mentioned. There have been times when I have replaced igneous with contigency, but there wasnt a universal choice to.

Now the choice to replace igneous with contigency or another shield actually is a no-brainer. That is to say that the exciting class refresh killed off a beloved skill and player choice.

What I find interesting about the idea that Earthen Heart was too good is that the skills worked in tandem with the passives. It took numerous parts of Earthen Heart working in synergy with eachother to get the value that I described. Compare that to a single Arcanist skill.

"Craft a defensive Apocryphal rune that deals 1161 Physical Damage. The rune steals 2200 Armor and applies Minor Maim for 15 seconds, reducing their damage done by 5%. The rune also taunts for 15 seconds if it would not cause taunt immunity, and generates Crux. While slotted, damage taken is reduced by 2% per active Crux.

Converts into a Stamina ability and deals Physical Damage. Reduce your target's Armor and gain Armor."

This single skill is so totally overloaded that it takes a combination of several DK abilities to even begin making a value comparison.

Note: I'm not directly comparing the old Igneous Shield to this Arcanist skill. I'm saying to see all of that text that Arcanist skills have and therefore see how heavy handed the treatment of Earthen Heart and the DK has been.

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Possibly, but they were told about the reasons wh DK was going to be dead for tanking before it released, they just ignored all feedback that wasn't about DPS or PvP.

Can they taunt?
Can they block?
Can they mitigate 95%+ of damage?
Can they move?
Can they get resources back?

If the answer is yes, then you'll need to explain what is "dead" about it.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit would be all about balancing 'pure' classes if such a thing were appropriate.

Except this is Elder Scrolls, and for 30 years, this world existed where player choice mattered more than some half-baked dev-driven idea of "class".

But this is an MMO, not a single-player game. Your choices can affect others.

Also, player choice includes the choice to play a pure class. But that isn't a viable choice if pure classes are weak.

I honestly don't get the complaints here. If you subclass, you'll still be strong. Pure classes will be strong in a different way. You can't have it all. Your choices will matter, and that's good.

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

Ok no offense, but have you even tried using the new DK skills?

If you're upset about Battle Roar, a sustain passive, being nerfed, it really feels like you haven't even attempted to use the new skills.

Heart of Flame gives way more sustain than Battle Roar ever did (nigh infinite in fact) and also serves as a powerful health based heal. It's a far better tanking skill than DKs had last patch.

Suggesting that players be happy about replacing an active skill with Heart of Flame due to the heavy handed treating of Battle Roar is a bad suggestion.

As mentioned, DK skills are bad for tanking. Some even lost utility with the most recent update! If I didnt find it worth using more than 1 dk skill per bar in the past, then I certainly won't now.

Igneous Shield lost utility and is no longer worth using. DK chains lost the thing that made it cool for tanking and that too fails to be worth using now.

An identity update shouldnt upend skills in this way and it certainly shouldnt weaken passive abilities, remove beloved passives, or make skills less attractive. But all of those thinfs have happened.

If Igneos Shield lost its utility and is no longer worth using, you have room on your skill bar to slots Heart of Flame now. You can also slot Hearth and Home instead of Heroic Slash. That's another tool to stay alive.
What do you think made DK chains "cool for tanking" that they no longer have now? The way I see it DK chains providing Minor Brutality to the group through the Draconic Power passives is a pretty good change. That's already three DK skills to increase the value of The Storm Voice Battle Roar (I still think it should be called Reman's Battle Cry). Plus an ultimate if you are running one.

Your suggestion is so far away from a fair trade in strength, so far away from an apples to apples comparison, and so inconsiderate of the other skills that player may want to use (instead of having to use a whole extra skill to compensate for the passive losses) that your motivation for the idea is in question.

Igneous shield could shield group members, provide a buff to heals, trigger helping hands which is now gone, and trigger minor brutality, one of the 2 unique things that DK can provide to a group.

That is gone. It's all gone. There is no replacing that dynamic. It doesn't exist. Stop playing pretend to the contrary.

I see. Yes, it's unfortunate if the shielding on allies is the reason you chose to run the skill. From a Templar tank, I've been running Ulfsild's Shielding variant for that function before subclassing let me steal Igneos Shield. It's decently useful even if you have to get used to its activation condition. But you can also just trust your healers to take this load off you. If group member deaths are what's holding you back, there is no shame in using Brands of Imperium in 4man content. Helping Hand has a worthy replacement in Heart of Flame if you ask me.

This change is, unfortunately, doing exactly what was intended. There was too much power in Earthen Heart in the context of subclassing. Minor Brutality, Magma Armor, a source of Major Brutality, Petrify, stamina sustain, sustain from ulting. Now as a Templar tank it made me quite happy that I could just steal the strongest part of the DK for myself, but that's just a side effect of the same issues subclassing introduced to PvP and DPSing.

They should probably change the line in Elder Dragon from "when activating a Draconic Might ability" to "when activating a Dragonknight ability" and that would fix the issue for you without breaking too much.
Edit: Actually the more I think about it, this might be the perfect solution, because it would also make Templar tanks fill the shoes of the DK tank more easily because any DK, be that healer or DPS, could comfortably provide the group with Minor Brutality so long as they are running Draconic Might, at least the DPS will and the healer might (because Dragonblood can now provide AOE heal and Minor Courage).

I am not aware of the pros and cons of Templar tanking. I do have a couple of thoughts though.

The strength of igneous came from all of the combined components that I mentioned. There have been times when I have replaced igneous with contigency, but there wasnt a universal choice to.

Now the choice to replace igneous with contigency or another shield actually is a no-brainer. That is to say that the exciting class refresh killed off a beloved skill and player choice.

What I find interesting about the idea that Earthen Heart was too good is that the skills worked in tandem with the passives. It took numerous parts of Earthen Heart working in synergy with eachother to get the value that I described. Compare that to a single Arcanist skill.

"Craft a defensive Apocryphal rune that deals 1161 Physical Damage. The rune steals 2200 Armor and applies Minor Maim for 15 seconds, reducing their damage done by 5%. The rune also taunts for 15 seconds if it would not cause taunt immunity, and generates Crux. While slotted, damage taken is reduced by 2% per active Crux.

Converts into a Stamina ability and deals Physical Damage. Reduce your target's Armor and gain Armor."

This single skill is so totally overloaded that it takes a combination of several DK abilities to even begin making a value comparison.

Note: I'm not directly comparing the old Igneous Shield to this Arcanist skill. I'm saying to see all of that text that Arcanist skills have and therefore see how heavy handed the treatment of Earthen Heart and the DK has been.

To explain the issue of Templar tanks while also relating it to the topic of subclassing, to keep it on topic for this thread,
Templar tanks mainly suffered from not being able to provide the group with a comparable amount of buffs to a DK tank. The issue of Templar tank for the longest of times wasn't about how tough they are and a lot more about how little benefit they provided. Templar healers could provide a raid group with all the buffs and more than a Templar tank could.
Meanwhile for a DK all they had to do was use Igneous shield to give the group Minor Brutality, which is something Dragonknight damage dealers weren't doing, or weren't doing frequently enough in the case of Eruption. Dragonknight healers virtually didn't exist and were completely obsolete when compared to Templar healers and Warden healers. So the group would already have a Templar healer on default and would require someone to provide the group with Minor Brutality. Only DK tanks could do that.

Bringing it back to subclassing, it was very easy for me to replace Aedric spear (and Sunshield) for Earthen Heart. Not only would I gain Magma Armor to tank the couple of fights that Templars were perhaps not tough enough for yet (I tried main tanking Yolnahkriin in veteran as a Templar, but couldn't), I would also gain the missing Minor Brutality and gain additional sustain from ulting without losing the shield. That's a lot of power gained from just one change. If this had resulted in Templar tanks completely overshadowing DK tanks, I think it would be easier to see the purpose of the changes that were made.

In PvP these issues are generally felt more strongly. Animal companions lets you shrug off all negative effects from Netch's Cleanse, while providing you with powerful delayed burst and extra crit damage. Assassination provides you with more crit damage, a great spammable that even has a guarateed crit every three seconds as well as a high damage bow proc and a gap closer that also happens to be the only gap closer that procs Ulfsild's Contingency at your destination rather than at the start. And Stormcalling has your Major Resolve, Streak if you prefer that over Lotus Fan as well as some very strong passives that also boost your Assassination damage. Pureclass builds can't compete with that.
A good player on a Pureclass build might beat a bad player on a subclass build, but when evenly matched or when the good player is running a subclassed build, you are not going to have a good time in PvP. The changes to DK were made in such a way that after DK received buffs to compete with Arcanist in PvE, nothing in PvP or PvE could come in and steal DK's shiny new toys. What would be the point to buffing DK to be as good as Arcanist if Arcanist just steals the new DK buffs and remains stronger? Sticking to this design philosophy broke the synergistic core of Earthen Heart.
They went a bit overboard with that I think, because Draconic Might looks pretty juicy for subclassing, but it's pretty fair all things considered, largely because of the very changes that you dislike about it. Swapping skills or passives around now doesn't look like it could fix the issue.
However, my earlier suggestion of changing Elder Dragon to apply to all Dragonknight abilities could work, because subclass builds can only run one DK skill line anyway. And as a bonus it would address the issues Templar tanks have too. So perhaps this should be the focus now. ZOS certainly won't be undoing all the other changes.

twisttop138 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

I expect this is DK rework 1.0 and they'll adjust stuff as they see how it plays out now that everyone has access to the reworked DK. Small comfort, I know.

DK skills have become denigrated for 10 years. The design team isn't going to suddenly think they made an oopsie.

Look at dk wings for exampe. That skill was totally robbed of it's power a decade ago and has never been useful since then.

I'm genuinely disgusted that now the design team has messed around with that skills name and in such a sick way as to deliberately make it sound goofy but with some plausible deniability. It's absolutely shameful that people would pick on their fans in such a way by making such a joke name and be as bold face as to comment on joking around about the name on stream. How putrid.

If you're genuinely this upset over something that ultimately isn't that serious, it may be time to take a break from the game. It's not sick in the slightest to rename something, especially when people don't care to differentiate between how a word is pronounced. It's Wing Buffet (buff-it), buffet meaning to strike repeatedly. When I saw the Skill name that was the first meaning I thought of, not buffet (buff-ay).

People I know are doing more damage and such with new DK. People will like it, people will hate it. Not everyone can be made happy, but as others have said this IS an MMO, not a single-player game. Balancing needs to exist (even if it's delayed) and this rework of the Class has only been live for a couple of days, yet it's the same thing any time a big change is introduced, with people preaching doom and gloom. This whole thing happened when Subclassing first was released, people yelling that Subclassing was going to kill the game, it was going to kill this or that and everything in-between. Now it's people saying the opposite.

Well everything will have fans and detractors. I would think it's not the same folks upset for both things. Subclassing hurt the game but it's here. I'm enjoying the new DK and you're right about dps. I think trying to mitigate the damage subclassing has done will only help the game in the long run. Unfortunately you can't take back the massive power creep. New content will have to be balanced around what is possible now and with the refreshes. With 180k parses out this week, new stuffs gonna need to hit hard, have huge hp pools and good mechanics.

It's definitely not the same people arguing both sides, for sure. I was mostly trying to say there were people who absolutely hate Subclassing and were prophecizing that it would kill ESO and that it made everything worse. Now there are people prophecizing that making pure Class builds and not holding up Subclassing so much is going to kill ESO and make everything worse. Like I said, some people will love new changes, some will hate them, it's exactly that everything will have both fans and haters. But we go through this every time there's a major update, you'd think people might react a little less volatile after all these years.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

I expect this is DK rework 1.0 and they'll adjust stuff as they see how it plays out now that everyone has access to the reworked DK. Small comfort, I know.

DK skills have become denigrated for 10 years. The design team isn't going to suddenly think they made an oopsie.

Look at dk wings for exampe. That skill was totally robbed of it's power a decade ago and has never been useful since then.

I'm genuinely disgusted that now the design team has messed around with that skills name and in such a sick way as to deliberately make it sound goofy but with some plausible deniability. It's absolutely shameful that people would pick on their fans in such a way by making such a joke name and be as bold face as to comment on joking around about the name on stream. How putrid.

If you're genuinely this upset over something that ultimately isn't that serious, it may be time to take a break from the game. It's not sick in the slightest to rename something, especially when people don't care to differentiate between how a word is pronounced. It's Wing Buffet (buff-it), buffet meaning to strike repeatedly. When I saw the Skill name that was the first meaning I thought of, not buffet (buff-ay).

People I know are doing more damage and such with new DK. People will like it, people will hate it. Not everyone can be made happy, but as others have said this IS an MMO, not a single-player game. Balancing needs to exist (even if it's delayed) and this rework of the Class has only been live for a couple of days, yet it's the same thing any time a big change is introduced, with people preaching doom and gloom. This whole thing happened when Subclassing first was released, people yelling that Subclassing was going to kill the game, it was going to kill this or that and everything in-between. Now it's people saying the opposite.

Nope! I not only have the right to discuss something that I'm invested in in a serious way, but it is completely normal to feel wronged as I have.

It is basic decency for changes to long standing ways of being to be both carefully considered and to not be mocked. The changes to wings doesnt meet either of those for me. That is also true because wing buffet is an awful name even if it isn't a joke. But it has now been joked around about which is both an indication that it isnt being taken seriously and a disappointment considering how wings used to be awesome before being blown up by design. Total salt on the wound moment.

It's also true that the idea of "stop caring so much man" is regressive thinking.

There comes a point where feelings and beliefs become detrimental and are not in the slightest bit constructive. There are times when feeling so strongly negative is entirely out of line with what caused those emotions. There are times when it is unreasonable to be so deeply and fundamentally bothered by something.

Being so upset over a simple name change is one of those times. And I'm saying this genuinely, not trying to mock or belittle. This viceral reaction to them changing a name is unreasonable. If you were annoyed with it, thought it was stupid, lame, sounds too much like a meme, all of that would be very valid. But you are literally attacking the character of the devs who did the name change. That is not a reasonable reaction. You're calling them sick people, calling it putrid. That is not valid criticsm, that is just outright badmouthing the devs. Basic decency has no place in a discussion about the name change of a skill in a video game.

They are not trying to mock the community. They are not trying to mock you personally. They didn't do it as a joke. The jokes started because of people immediately reading buffet (buff-it) as buffet (buff-ay), the name didn't START as a joke. Jokes are made about serious things all the time, just look at dark humor, that doesn't make the topic being joked about less serious.

I'm not saying to stop caring, I'm saying there comes a point where it IS possible to care way too much.

Is impossible to split an idea with its implementation. And the implementation of subclassing was the worst change that ZOS introduced to this game since i ve started playing, 5 years ago.
It completely destroyed any semblance of variety, creativity, balance and fun.
Really eager to the introduction of the class masteries and have fun again.

I'm of the opinion that they should kill subclassing. No matter what it takes.

Arunei wrote: »

The jokes started because of people immediately reading buffet (buff-it) as buffet (buff-ay), the name didn't START as a joke.

Maybe not worth the fury of hell, but it's definitely an intentional double meaning pun (referencing an invention of modern culture). It's completely absurd to think that devs or players wouldn't (or shouldn't) know its two definitions and pronunciations. If they only wanted to show off their fancy vocabulary they could've called it "Scale Buffet" or whatever. They chose the pun.

But back to subclassing: most of the problems (both mechanical and thematic) could've been avoided in the first place if they limited it to only 1 subclass tree. Unfortunatlely that ship has sailed, yes they need to buff pure classes at or above the level of tri-class abominations that can hyper-minmax around busted synergistic combos and/or easy mode silver bullets.

Fondly remembers the days of such games as ... Skyrim wherein you could choose which skills to learn and expand and which to leave undeveloped. It was the definition of a game allowing you to create the build you wanted, play how you wanted, call your 'class' what you wanted. If only we had that now instead of all this waffling........

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Bringing it back to subclassing, it was very easy for me to replace Aedric spear (and Sunshield) for Earthen Heart. Not only would I gain Magma Armor to tank the couple of fights that Templars were perhaps not tough enough for yet (I tried main tanking Yolnahkriin in veteran as a Templar, but couldn't), I would also gain the missing Minor Brutality and gain additional sustain from ulting without losing the shield. That's a lot of power gained from just one change. If this had resulted in Templar tanks completely overshadowing DK tanks, I think it would be easier to see the purpose of the changes that were made.

Context: I have one toon. A Templar. Nearly 10,000 hours played. 99% of my time in dungeons and trials is as a tank. I don't sub-class. I run high-end game content.

You are correct in stating that Templar tanks are lacking compared to others for givving group buffs, but I have to pull you up on the above.

Templars have one of the highest self-mitigations in the game. You can get to over 97% damage reduction with only self-buffs, and easily sustain that level for the entire fight. You should have absolutely no problems tanking Yoln in veteran - I tank the entirety of vSS solo (i.e. no other tank) without issue.

Templar tanking, from a tanking point of view, needs very little improving. What is lacking from an end-game point is group buffs. Same with Templar DDs, there is nice synergy between the skills and lines, but in end-game post-subclassing it just can't output the comparable numbers, and some simple number boost would solve that. Templar healers have fallen out of favour due to the group buff issue. There is little work that needs to be done to the class itself, it's the lack of group buffs that are the issue.