ZOS Trying to Kill Subclassing NOW?

LordDragonSlayer

I get it, some people were upset when they had to subclass for healing or tanking or dpsing because they loved their pure class and hated subclassing. These people were very upset that their pure class could not do as much damage or heal or even tank as the subclassed ones.

What I do not understand is why put something into the game and then turn around and try to kill it? The game is meant to be for everyone not some elitists content creator or guild or player. Subclassing was a way to introduce multiclassing and give us different play styles. Now the new DK reorganization IMO s going to essentially kill subclassing at least for DK tanks because of how it is all split up. IMO Earthen Heart was the way to go but now it seems like all of their passives and some skills are now split up between Ardent Flame and Draconic Power. Why, because the changes do not make any sense?

Why not just leave the class skill line skills and passives alone or slightly change them to make them more competitive with the subclass builds vs mixing everything up? Again I ask why put something into the game to turn around and try to kill it because it makes no sense? Is it really that hard to balance out the damage? Or, is this to please the small group of people who always complain? Yes, you can take this as a complaint because I am not happy at all with these changes.

If you really want pure classes to be competitive with the Arcanist class, then you have to give them some type of cleave damage. That is how the lightning staff used to work, then a small group complained and it was changed. Honestly, I do not care what the small group of people think or want and if that is how it is going to be going forward, then just let me know and I will start to look for a new game because I am getting to the point where spending time and money on this game is just not worth it.

I understand that I am one person but I know a bunch of people are pissed off at the changes, especially tanks. However, they are not expressing their displeasure because they think they have no voice or ZOS does not care so why say anything.

Lysorris

tsaescishoeshiner

I really enjoy subclassing, but I think that the pure-class changes could improve balance and build diversity. (I mean, the most optimized play may always be limited in number of builds.)

With this change, I wish they'd add flexibility to the class-based sets from the Archive so that not only base classes can use them.

Soarora

It’s impossible to make both people who want distinct role lines for easy subclassing and people who want to pure class happy. Those are mutually exclusive— either subclass is the way to go because every buff is attainable or pure class is the way to go because the class synergy benefits the circumstances. But pure classing has been in the game much longer. I haven’t heard of anyone progressing into doing harder content because of subclassing… but people have dropped out of doing content they enjoyed because of subclassing.

L_Nici

They do not destroy subclassing, they bring pure classes on par with subclasses. Even now the pure DKs DPS is still slightly lower than a subclass version.

Marto

The introduction of the mastery passives means ZOS now has the ability to balance subclassing and pure classing without necessarily affecting both. They previously couldn't do that.

• Subclassing is too powerful? Nerf the entire class, and buff the mastery passives to bring the pure class to how it was before.
• Pure class is fine, but subclassing is too weak? Buff the entire class, and nerf the mastery passives.
• Pure classing too powerful? Nerf only the mastery passives.
• DPS is too powerful but healing and tanking too weak? Nerf some mastery passives and buff others.

Balance is never going to be perfect, and things will occasionally drift one way or another. The devs having the ability to tweak things more granularly is a good thing. Maybe this first iteration of mastery passives will be good, maybe it won't be. What matters is that it exists to be adjusted as needed.

ADarklore

Just remember the good ole days... back then, ZOS would have just gutted Arcanist and Nightblade both, and said, "There, balance complete. Have fun." At least the new team is working on proper fixes and have communicated with players during PTS and are willing to take suggestions and even say, "Ooops, we agree that wasn't right" and back track, something the old team never would have done.

shadyjane62

For me 2025 never happened. I have been a Templar for 11 years. I saw no valid reason to change to a partial something else most likely ending with an ugly green beam.

James-Wayne

This is a MMO which means combat will always change. Combat will never be in a state where it stops.

Trier_Sero

Good riddance

xylena

Good riddance

Renato90085

well,one year ago,since subclass leak, i seen some same post in here, but contet is about system unbalanced ,so zos is killing different play styles and game
so then a year later, they first time apologized..

Major_Toughness

Subclassing won't be missed.

Angnos

You know what I notice with these threads about bridging the gap between subclassing and pure classes? They always talk about DPS. There’s no talk about people who are tanking or healing. I understand that the game is pretty easy 99% of the time and that you don’t need tanks and healers for that. But for the 1%, they are still important.

So I hope that the future rework also keeps a focus on the people who heal and tank. Before subclassing, DK was a good tanking class. But now, with the rework, I don’t recommend it anymore to players who want to start tanking.

gamergirldk

No they want to made both viable. >You want to cherry pick skill lines go ahead, but then you will loose some pure class buffs. This it a fair trade.Why would you not want the best for both playstyles ?

GloatingSwine

Angnos wrote: »

You know what I notice with these threads about bridging the gap between subclassing and pure classes? They always talk about DPS. There’s no talk about people who are tanking or healing. I understand that the game is pretty easy 99% of the time and that you don’t need tanks and healers for that. But for the 1%, they are still important.

So I hope that the future rework also keeps a focus on the people who heal and tank. Before subclassing, DK was a good tanking class. But now, with the rework, I don’t recommend it anymore to players who want to start tanking.

Though if the mastery passives go ahead as they are now every RoJo healer will be rerolling onto DK.

(The DK rework pretty much forgot that tanks exist, and certainly didn't listen to any of our feedback.)

Personofsecrets

The crazy thing to me is just how bad DK is for tankinh now. It went from being a top tabking class to being just okay to now being completely overshadowed.

Personofsecrets

James-Wayne wrote: »

This is a MMO which means combat will always change. Combat will never be in a state where it stops.

This is a bad idea. DK tanks had an identity based around a couple of class passives for its entire lifetime in the game. It's completely underhanded and evil for those dynamics to be changed after such a long time.

Yes, I think that the design team members who came up with the idea to mess around with the DK passives in the way that they did petformed a morally bad action and should reflect on how their choices have a negative impact on others.

SolarRune

And this is the issue for me, the focus is clearly DD and tanks and healers just need to make do. As a support main (healers or tank) I really don't want to go back to the days of just a dk tank and necro tank and warden healer and nb healer (or any static comp like this) - we've had a year of not having this and it's been amazing with many many different builds viable. The current direction based on the dk class refresh and the class masteries just puts us back to the bad old days.

CameraBeardThePirate

Subclassing was introduced without any downsides. This was a mistake, full stop. You can say "but it gives us choice!", but at the end of the day, you need to have a downside for something like this or the meta simply converge on whichever 3 lines are the strongest. ZOS isn't killing class mastery, they're doing what they should have done from the start and making it have actual downsides.

Look at it this way: in DnD (or Baldur's Gate if you've never played actual DnD), you can choose to multiclass into almost any class you want. These can be for RP or for powerful combinations that elevate your character's effectiveness. However, there is a tradeoff: you cannot reach the most powerful abilities in either class that you subclass, since if you take 3 levels in Warlock and 3 levels in Sorcerer, you're only level 3 in each class despite being level 6 overall. Other characters will have powerful level 6 abilities, but you're trading that for RP or for a powerful niche combination of lower level features.

This is how subclassing should (and will) work with Class Mastery. By subbing out a class line, you will forego the most powerful passives your class has, but may be able to create powerful niche combos (like stacking delayed burst with Curse, Blastbones, or Shalks for example).

karthrag_inak

Khajiit would be all about balancing 'pure' classes if such a thing were appropriate.

Except this is Elder Scrolls, and for 30 years, this world existed where player choice mattered more than some half-baked dev-driven idea of "class".

After all, lets be honest, yes? The only difference between the so called 'Pure classes' and subclassing is that one enables you to configure your own skill layout while the other has skill combinations picked by someone else. Khajiit has 0 interest in playing someone elses story.

Personofsecrets

SolarRune wrote: »

And this is the issue for me, the focus is clearly DD and tanks and healers just need to make do. As a support main (healers or tank) I really don't want to go back to the days of just a dk tank and necro tank and warden healer and nb healer (or any static comp like this) - we've had a year of not having this and it's been amazing with many many different builds viable. The current direction based on the dk class refresh and the class masteries just puts us back to the bad old days.

It's also quite evil that a potential issue recognized by design, of the removal of helping hands in exchange for a worse passive that forces players into heavy attacking (which I personally am insulted by), is supposedly made up for by a new passive available to only DK pure classes.

None of that...

A.) Makes up for them murdering the DK tank identity.

B.) Actually makes DK any better to use for tanking due to the value that other pure classes have.

So DK ends up in a sci-fi scenario where a body snatcher has killed it and substituted it with it's weird alien self.

I'm ashamed to play ESO. More than usual!

AzuraFan

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit would be all about balancing 'pure' classes if such a thing were appropriate.

Except this is Elder Scrolls, and for 30 years, this world existed where player choice mattered more than some half-baked dev-driven idea of "class".

But this is an MMO, not a single-player game. Your choices can affect others.

Also, player choice includes the choice to play a pure class. But that isn't a viable choice if pure classes are weak.

I honestly don't get the complaints here. If you subclass, you'll still be strong. Pure classes will be strong in a different way. You can't have it all. Your choices will matter, and that's good.

Personofsecrets

AzuraFan wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit would be all about balancing 'pure' classes if such a thing were appropriate.

Except this is Elder Scrolls, and for 30 years, this world existed where player choice mattered more than some half-baked dev-driven idea of "class".

But this is an MMO, not a single-player game. Your choices can affect others.

Also, player choice includes the choice to play a pure class. But that isn't a viable choice if pure classes are weak.

I honestly don't get the complaints here. If you subclass, you'll still be strong. Pure classes will be strong in a different way. You can't have it all. Your choices will matter, and that's good.

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

BXR_Lonestar

Soarora wrote: »

It’s impossible to make both people who want distinct role lines for easy subclassing and people who want to pure class happy. Those are mutually exclusive— either subclass is the way to go because every buff is attainable or pure class is the way to go because the class synergy benefits the circumstances. But pure classing has been in the game much longer. I haven’t heard of anyone progressing into doing harder content because of subclassing… but people have dropped out of doing content they enjoyed because of subclassing.

This is precisely it. They can't make a system that makes all people happy. But for a game where you interact with multiple people, their IS a right and a wrong answer for what is good for the game, and their steps towards killing subclassing is an admission that the subclassing idea was bad for the game from the get go - which is precisely what many in the community were trying to tell them in the first place. But the previous Dev team didn't listen. This dev team is listening. And they may not have the ability/authority to completely undo subclassing, but they seem to have the authority/ability to undermine and deminish subclassing overall.

I, for one, think it is a good change for the game. But I'm also of the mind that you can't fix a mistake by tapdancing around it, which is what I see the current dev team doing. If something is a mistake, then just get rid of it and start over. Much like they are doing with the class mastery scripts. Charm was a mistake. So they're just reworking the class masteries, and more importantly, getting rid of charm.

But speaking of class mastery scripts, I would LOVE - I repeat - I WOULD LOVE - if they made it so only pure-class characters can use class mastery scripts. Further reduce subclassing power and further incentivize pure-classing. Because if you're subclassing, by definition, your choosing NOT to master the skill lines of your own class.

AzuraFan

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

I expect this is DK rework 1.0 and they'll adjust stuff as they see how it plays out now that everyone has access to the reworked DK. Small comfort, I know.

GloatingSwine

AzuraFan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

I expect this is DK rework 1.0 and they'll adjust stuff as they see how it plays out now that everyone has access to the reworked DK. Small comfort, I know.

AzuraFan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

I expect this is DK rework 1.0 and they'll adjust stuff as they see how it plays out now that everyone has access to the reworked DK. Small comfort, I know.

Possibly, but they were told about the reasons wh DK was going to be dead for tanking before it released, they just ignored all feedback that wasn't about DPS or PvP.

Destai

I don't think they're intently trying to kill subclassing. It seems like they're trying to bring pure classes into parity with subclassed builds, which is a mandate from the community. Subclassing wasn't a success IMO. It brought in an initial spike of players, but quickly homogenized the meta and eventually pushed people back out.

IMO, we should've had class masteries before subclassing released. Or, at the very least, those two features should've been released in tandem.

Regardless, I'm happy they're listening to our feedback now.

Ratzkifal

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

I get it, some people were upset when they had to subclass for healing or tanking or dpsing because they loved their pure class and hated subclassing. These people were very upset that their pure class could not do as much damage or heal or even tank as the subclassed ones.

What I do not understand is why put something into the game and then turn around and try to kill it? The game is meant to be for everyone not some elitists content creator or guild or player. Subclassing was a way to introduce multiclassing and give us different play styles. Now the new DK reorganization IMO s going to essentially kill subclassing at least for DK tanks because of how it is all split up. IMO Earthen Heart was the way to go but now it seems like all of their passives and some skills are now split up between Ardent Flame and Draconic Power. Why, because the changes do not make any sense?

Why not just leave the class skill line skills and passives alone or slightly change them to make them more competitive with the subclass builds vs mixing everything up? Again I ask why put something into the game to turn around and try to kill it because it makes no sense? Is it really that hard to balance out the damage? Or, is this to please the small group of people who always complain? Yes, you can take this as a complaint because I am not happy at all with these changes.

If you really want pure classes to be competitive with the Arcanist class, then you have to give them some type of cleave damage. That is how the lightning staff used to work, then a small group complained and it was changed. Honestly, I do not care what the small group of people think or want and if that is how it is going to be going forward, then just let me know and I will start to look for a new game because I am getting to the point where spending time and money on this game is just not worth it.

I understand that I am one person but I know a bunch of people are pissed off at the changes, especially tanks. However, they are not expressing their displeasure because they think they have no voice or ZOS does not care so why say anything.

Good riddance.

But in all fairness, yes, it is a little strange to split up the DK skill lines to disincentivise subclassing and then introduce pureclass passives, when only one of these was necessary to address the question of how to balance subclassing.

If you want the real answer, it's because subclassing was a mistake - perhaps not the idea behind it, but definitely the way it was implemented - and ZOS has quietly come to accept that, which [speculation] may have also something to do with the recent layoffs [/speculation]. But what would be the alternative here?
Think what the outrage would be like if ZOS went and fully removed subclassing, even if they were going to try and bring it back in a different way. It would also generate more media attention if the big feature they advertised got fully removed. How would that look to their Microsoft overlords? We all know corporations almost never admit fault. So the best course of action for them is the difficult path of trying to keep subclassing as is, but balancing around it.
It seems their original idea was to fragment the power of a class so that subclassing wouldn't be able to cherrypick only the best parts of every class, reintroducing some opportunity costs to subclassing. And while that would have worked, there are obviously growing pains involved, which were also met with some resistance from the community.
Also, because the original plan would have meant that the oppressive subclass meta would not have gone away for another year at least, they realized they needed a faster solution and thus pureclass passives were conceived - which are actually a better solution than their original solution.
So that's where we are now. I expect the Warden skill lines to not be as broken up like DK's. DK might stay the way it is though for the foreseeable future. ZOS said once Arcanist got its refresh, they'll look over every class again. So in two years they might decide to make DK a little more forgiving when it comes to its subclass options.

Also, regarding your balance suggestions. Lightning staff was the inferior option to Inferno staff 100% of the time because AOE standard damage is below single target damage. Buffing Lightning staff would have never been able to resolve this issue, because at best it would have just made Arcanists even stronger. It would not have closed the gap between them and non-Arcanists at all. The new class reworks all seem to have some beam-like skills for easy-to-use high damage cleave. For DK that's their fire breath, but also all the other AOE skills. I expect this to be a trend for the other class reworks.
So, to answer your other question. Is it really that hard to balance out the damage? Yes. Yes it is. Subclassing turned balancing 7 classes into needing to balance 21 skill lines. Think about all the statements about how many new options subclassing introduced. They need to account for all of these when balancing. Subclassing made their work a thousand times harder and that might not even be an exaggeration considering the crazy number of build permutations we now have because of it.

My question for you is, if you don't count yourself among the elitists, why do you care? Ask ZOS to buff DK tanks if you aren't happy with the state of DK tanking. Everything else doesn't really seem to be the concerns of someone who, in your words, wouldn't be upset that their subclassed build gets outperformed by a pureclass build. What you are saying here makes you sound exactly like one of those elitists you seem to be disliking so much. The addition of pureclass passives affects you in the exact same way the addition of subclassing affected purists, which I was repeatedly assured that it doesn't by proponents of subclassing (seems like it actually does :shockedpikachu:).

Personofsecrets

AzuraFan wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I am less strong now as a DK tanking as pure class or subclass. One reason is because of the change to battle roar. DK skills are so bad, that I was able to indicate years of my own high-end tanking where only a single DK skill was used per bar. Since battle roar now has a weaket baseline and scales with DK skills being slotted, it is now weaker for my use case.

Battle Roar is an identity defining skill and has had it's value washed away for the sake of "identity."

I expect this is DK rework 1.0 and they'll adjust stuff as they see how it plays out now that everyone has access to the reworked DK. Small comfort, I know.

DK skills have become denigrated for 10 years. The design team isn't going to suddenly think they made an oopsie.

Look at dk wings for exampe. That skill was totally robbed of it's power a decade ago and has never been useful since then.

I'm genuinely disgusted that now the design team has messed around with that skills name and in such a sick way as to deliberately make it sound goofy but with some plausible deniability. It's absolutely shameful that people would pick on their fans in such a way by making such a joke name and be as bold face as to comment on joking around about the name on stream. How putrid.

twisttop138

It's unfair to be like, good riddance. It's not the players fault that ZOS did this and they enjoy it. They should've never released it like this, period. Full stop. The damage to the game isn't worth oops all pets or meme builds. I've had a lot of fun with it. I of course run it in trials, I would never gimp my team. But released having zero downsides only made happen what people said would happen. Now they're stuck. They can't take it back. They can only mitigate it. The anger really should be directed at one guy. A garbage director who pushed this while actively destroying ESO. Let's push out this broken thing, I need the money and developers for, and I quote, "the mmo I've been waiting my whole life to make." Not the one with tens of thousands of players or that printed 2 billion dollars for the company. Lay the anger at that guys feet. People are only playing the system they were given.