DK now the broken meta in PvP

SneaK · March 10

smallhammer wrote: »

Just been in Cyro. It's a light show, and reminds me of a circus. It seems almost everyone are DK.

And a day ago, everyone was a Warden. Did you expect the majority to sit out day one/two and stay the stale meta???

What are y’all even on about rn

smallhammer · March 10

The new light-show of the DK is awful. But, you are right; Cyro is copy and paste.

xylena · March 10

SneaK wrote: »

What are y’all even on about rn

They really miss the animal assassin meta, it was just so diverse and balanced /s

In a week people will stop having fun and start optimizing again.

Markytous · March 10

Animal Lightning Assassins. How will they ever recover? I'm glad that Dragonknight has shown some teeth so far. This means that PURE CLASSES will be very formidable once they all receive their refreshes. My salt and anger for Subclassing has made me see the big picture here and I am absolutely electrified with joy to know Dragonknight came out strong in PVP. That whip hits hard and its so satisfying to use! Much better and more interactive than just pressing Shalks and dropping Grim Focuses everywhere.

Faltasë · March 10

Rich Lambert nerf everything crowd is seething rn

hoangdz · March 10

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

I honestly don't see the big deal in those numbers. 10k-12k with Molten Whip crit doesn't seem insane to me, a surprise Attack deals the same or even more damage on a crit. Looking at the dragonfire 5 hits for a total of 5.3k or incinerate for 3.8k reinforces my thought that this is just normal damage.

10-12k Molten AFTER mitigation deduction, not before lol. That's on par with bow procs.

No its not. A Spectral Bow proc can easily deal 15k+. And the average hit of a whip was just 4.1k, soo again, thats normal damage. The 10k was on a critical, max stacked and probably with a lot of penetration.

No, I've been dueling all night and checking CMX data. Are you telling me what I'm seeing with my own eyes is wrong? lol.

Molten Whip is currently hitting as hard as bow proc.

Obviously it is, if you call an average damage of 4k "on par" with bow procs.

You're taking max value of bow and compare it to average value of whip. Maybe don't be disingenuous with your argument first?

Here's a meta Assassination/Aedric/Storm Calling build I fought against:

8.3k crit bow and 4760 average.

I regularly take this amount of bow procs on my sorc from decent builds. Where's the 15k bow?

Would you look at that the average damage of the bow proc is still higher than the average damage of the whip. qed.

I don't care if bow does 300 more average damage than Whip. Average damage doesn't kill in PvP. It's crit damage. That is all that matters. At the end of the day, Whip is critting for almost 2k more than bow, and that is what secures the kill.

In your specific case maybe, where we also do not know which buffs the attacker had. Possibly the DK had more Pen than that subclass abomination. But overall I see way higher Crits of Spectral Bows, especially from pure Nightblades than that cute 10k of a whip. Even Blood for Blood had a higher average damage than a whip. Also its 600 more average damage, not 300.

You don’t know which buffs the attacker had, but I do. I ran that build on day one of subclassing. The screenshots with Peli’s DK and that meta subclass build are from people I’ve dueled many times. I am telling you right now, Whip is hitting as hard as bow proc.

Assassination/Aedric/Stormcalling was just about one of the top dueling builds last patch. In U49, it’s getting rolled by pure DKs. Pure DK is objectively better than every meta subclass combination right now, and that’s fine too because that’s the goal.

What concerns me is we now have at least 4 months until Warden rework, then another 3 months until Sorc’s. During this time, you either play DK, continue with subclassing, or quit. People like me who could still do well on pure Sorc or pure NB, are now having to build against subclass AND pure DKs, which require completely different counters. It’s polarizing and literally forces people like me to join the meta or lose every fight against decent players.

Markytous · March 10

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

I honestly don't see the big deal in those numbers. 10k-12k with Molten Whip crit doesn't seem insane to me, a surprise Attack deals the same or even more damage on a crit. Looking at the dragonfire 5 hits for a total of 5.3k or incinerate for 3.8k reinforces my thought that this is just normal damage.

10-12k Molten AFTER mitigation deduction, not before lol. That's on par with bow procs.

No its not. A Spectral Bow proc can easily deal 15k+. And the average hit of a whip was just 4.1k, soo again, thats normal damage. The 10k was on a critical, max stacked and probably with a lot of penetration.

No, I've been dueling all night and checking CMX data. Are you telling me what I'm seeing with my own eyes is wrong? lol.

Molten Whip is currently hitting as hard as bow proc.

Obviously it is, if you call an average damage of 4k "on par" with bow procs.

You're taking max value of bow and compare it to average value of whip. Maybe don't be disingenuous with your argument first?

Here's a meta Assassination/Aedric/Storm Calling build I fought against:

8.3k crit bow and 4760 average.

I regularly take this amount of bow procs on my sorc from decent builds. Where's the 15k bow?

Would you look at that the average damage of the bow proc is still higher than the average damage of the whip. qed.

I don't care if bow does 300 more average damage than Whip. Average damage doesn't kill in PvP. It's crit damage. That is all that matters. At the end of the day, Whip is critting for almost 2k more than bow, and that is what secures the kill.

In your specific case maybe, where we also do not know which buffs the attacker had. Possibly the DK had more Pen than that subclass abomination. But overall I see way higher Crits of Spectral Bows, especially from pure Nightblades than that cute 10k of a whip. Even Blood for Blood had a higher average damage than a whip. Also its 600 more average damage, not 300.

You don’t know which buffs the attacker had, but I do. I ran that build on day one of subclassing. The screenshots with Peli’s DK and that meta subclass build are from people I’ve dueled many times. I am telling you right now, Whip is hitting as hard as bow proc.

Assassination/Aedric/Stormcalling was just about one of the top dueling builds last patch. In U49, it’s getting rolled by pure DKs. Pure DK is objectively better than every meta subclass combination right now, and that’s fine too because that’s the goal.

What concerns me is we now have at least 4 months until Warden rework, then another 3 months until Sorc’s. During this time, you either play DK, continue with subclassing, or quit. People like me who could still do well on pure Sorc or pure NB, are now having to build against subclass AND pure DKs, which require completely different counters. It’s polarizing and literally forces people like me to join the meta or lose every fight against decent players.

It was already like this with Subclassing, and Scribing before that. Not to mention cashing in for the next best mythic release. I haven't had any issues so far just enjoying the improved Uppercut and Forward Momentum on my Pure NB. Will I be top level? Nah. Am I beating most of the players I run across? Absolutely. I can wait those months if it means Subclassing gets put in its place eventually.

xylena · March 10

hoangdz wrote: »

During this time, you either play DK, continue with subclassing, or quit

yeah nerf DK, game was better when it was just "subclass assassin or quit"

/s

I still quit because "nobody dies then suddenly someone gets one shotted" is ungodly boring PvP, has been before the DK buff, and will continue to be until a major set/stat rework.

BardokRedSnow · March 10

DK for pvp is good, DK for PvE tho, damn, I did some solo stuff and its actually amazing, I guess this is what sorcs and templars felt like for years lol. Was probably the most fun in pve land Ive had in a hot minute.

coop500 · March 10

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

DK for pvp is good, DK for PvE tho, damn, I did some solo stuff and its actually amazing, I guess this is what sorcs and templars felt like for years lol. Was probably the most fun in pve land Ive had in a hot minute.

I knowww, I'm so happy it feels rewarding and respectful of our time!

gamergirldk · March 10

There is no way around this, each new class overhall will make the "new" class overpowered in some aspect of the gameplay. They have to do this, or we would have to wait for 2 years until all classes have been updated.
Now we atleast have a viable pure build that is fun to play.

ArctosCethlenn · March 11

Not particularly fun playing ranged while everyone and their mother has an extra on-demand 50% mitigation vs my entire kit, but at least it doesn't reflect my entire kit like way back when.

Thumbless_Bot · March 11

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Not particularly fun playing ranged while everyone and their mother has an extra on-demand 50% mitigation vs my entire kit, but at least it doesn't reflect my entire kit like way back when.

Shouldn't need to slot a skill for this. If you are standing that far away your attacks should hit proportionately lower.

Melee attacks are much, much more risky and, thus, should grant a much, much greater reward... waaaay more damage. Right now the delta is not enough.

If you want to fight then fight. If you stand back and drop frags or snipe or pretty much any destro skill you shouldnt get rewarded with similar damage as say dizzy or dual wield skills. It's dumb. It is probably the single most imbalanced thing in this entire game.

I made a post on this before. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665286/buff-weapon-based-single-target-melee-damage#latest

OutLaw_Nynx · March 11

Why do people want nerfs fr. I want to be as strong as I possibly can. Is it bc you were killed by it in PvP..?

Thumbless_Bot · March 11

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

Why do people want nerfs fr. I want to be as strong as I possibly can. Is it bc you were killed by it in PvP..?

It's certainly not because they killed too many people with a dk

NxJoeyD · March 11

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Not particularly fun playing ranged while everyone and their mother has an extra on-demand 50% mitigation vs my entire kit, but at least it doesn't reflect my entire kit like way back when.

Shouldn't need to slot a skill for this. If you are standing that far away your attacks should hit proportionately lower.

Melee attacks are much, much more risky and, thus, should grant a much, much greater reward... waaaay more damage. Right now the delta is not enough.

If you want to fight then fight. If you stand back and drop frags or snipe or pretty much any destro skill you shouldnt get rewarded with similar damage as say dizzy or dual wield skills. It's dumb. It is probably the single most imbalanced thing in this entire game.

I made a post on this before. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665286/buff-weapon-based-single-target-melee-damage#latest

Ehh melee attacks against ranged players are not nearly the risk prospect that they used to be.

Bear in mind melee range is a bonkers 7m whereas a lot of counterplay skills only have a range of 5m, giving melee attackers a 2m buffer within which to attack and not be affected by AoE counterplay skllls.

Further, a good amount of melee skills and attacks have a wide breath of affect, meaning there’s a very gracious latitude to actually land a strike, whereas ranged DPS require a full target within the reticle.

Melee builds also have access to the entire suite of gap closers with subclassing now so the prospect of being at range is not as beneficial as it used to be since everyone can now close gap or keep up with them. It used to be Sorcs could streak away and maintain distance, but now everyone can have Streak or Toppling Charge or Teleport Strike, etc.

That’s all before the mechanical issues with range DPS weapon target recognition at proximity, meaning there’s inherent poor recognition staves and bows have on targets that are right up on them, making damage application incredibly clumsy on close targets.

The idea that melee attacks present an increase risk died with subclassing. Players can mitigate much of those approach risks with access to more skills and mechanics, plus they’re better able to manage their proximity with gap closers.

Add in the fact that melee players receive damage scaling from the same primary resource pool that they can also use to dodge & break free (plus the % bonus stamina scaling) and that’s even more benefit to melee players (Magicka range players can’t break free from CC using Magicka, which is their primary resource).

A melee players only real proximity risk, is another melee player, not a ranged DD.

NxJoeyD · March 11

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Problem is not DK, whip is allowed to hit like spec bow pretty sure that was their goal, it’s also melee and not range. The actual problem is the crit burst meta that hasn’t changed, people get deleted instantly with no counterplay and it leaves a bad taste in their mouth.

This.

Mentioned this during the PTS cycle several times, but they should really start putting Critical Resistance to class passives as well (preferably on skill lines that don't provide burst damage).

It's absurd that crit damage gets shoved in everywhere (10% added to Earthen Heart this patch) but there's no defense added to counter that... Critical Resistance passives wouldn't even affect PvE in any negative way.

There’s several things they could do, easiest IMO would just be to increase the value of the trait itself. The issue is ZOS doesn’t see it as an issue. They are all in on the crit builds, we see that with the best sets, skills, and now them making DK into a crit class which honestly doesn’t fit well. It would be really nice if we had variety outside of crit.

There's a ton of simple things that ZOS could do to help the balance of Crit Dam vs Res.

The easiest would be to simply up the base Crit Res of players from 20% to 30% or even 40%.

The next-easiest would be to add a Crit Res Mundus to replace either the Weapon Damage or Spell Damage Mundus stones, which is necessary and long-overdue because they are un-hybridized dinosaurs that make zero sense existing in 2026.

Finally, they could un-nerf Impen and restore it back to its original tuning.

Most of these are magic number tweaks that would take like under an hour of dev time.

This, 100%

I’ve been asking for this in other threads! The issue isn’t the DK rework it is and has been for some time crit scaling and the fact that the crit scaling potential has gone up.

Classes should be strong and should have a benefit for remaining a base class to stay competitive but PvP is over abusing crit potential.

hoangdz · March 11

I swapped to my DK who had the wrong race (Woodelf instead of Darkelf), and didn't have many skills fully leveled. I also had the wrong gear (3 flame resist glyphs instead of weapon damage). This is my damage vs a guildmate using Stormcalling/Assassination/Aedric:

vs his damage:

4206 dps from me vs 3555 dps from him. Keep in mind, he is one of the better duelers/PvPers on PC. Last patch on my pure Sorc, fighting him was a straight up struggle. This patch on my DK, I am nuking him repeatedly. For example, this is a combo that pure DK can pull off every 7s:

That's a 16k burst combo (14k if you remove Shattering Rocks). Only a few of them critted. This is what happens when all of them crit:

29k total burst damage in 1 second at 12k pen, without Onslaught or Corrosive buff. This combo can be pulled off reliably every 4s (7s if you count Shattering). I have killed every meta subclass builds so far on this pure DK, and that's without using Corrosive. They simply cannot touch me, at all. The only people I'm going to lose to are seasoned DK mains.

Why would I return to my pure Sorc when DK is this strong?

Turtle_Bot · March 11

At this point, I'm of the opinion that we should just wait and see what Warden (and maybe Sorc) brings to the table with their reworks later this year.

If those 2 classes confirm that the current power level of DK is where all classes will land post refresh, then we should all just drop the calls for nerfs and just accept that all classes will be OP in some way post refresh (I would also remind the folks that will inevitably call for nerfs during the PTS for those respective class refreshes to cool their jets on the nerf calls for those classes too and just patiently wait until all classes are done).
However, if those 2 classes show a trend where they fall significantly behind DK, not reaching a similar power level, then we should definitely start calling for nerfs/balance adjustments to DK or that those classes post refresh be brought up to DK's level.

As for a DK meta making people quit, tbh, I highly doubt that will eventuate. We have just been in one of the most stale and longest build specific meta's (assass/animal/line of choice) of ESO's entire lifespan, not to mention we have had one of the most boring and stale general playstyle meta's (turtle up then balorgh/acquity ult dump) for literally years now at this point and most of us are still here.
I have also seen so many names from my guilds/friends list that quit due to sub-classing, return to the game over the past week (including 1 guild that was basically just me and 1 other left that were still logging in semi-regularly, now has like 30-40% of it's roster logging in almost daily for a week now, including the old guild leader).

If anything will make people quit, it will be the next few classes not living up to the hype that DK has set with it's refresh. It definitely won't be the short lived 3-4 month DK meta (which I am already working on exploring counters for, for lots of different playstyles, especially for open world PvP) that I'm 99% certain will be phased out as soon as the warden refresh (or maybe even the Werewolf refresh even sooner in july) comes along.

xylena · March 11

hoangdz wrote: »

29k total burst damage in 1 second

Old news. Assassin builds have been doing this for how long now? Just wait til players figure out how to jam garbage like Null Arca into their 29k bursts.

The busted sets/stats are not the fault of DK. Anything they release is gonna pull one shot crap like this until they do a massive set/stat overhaul.

hoangdz · March 11

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

29k total burst damage in 1 second

Old news. Assassin builds have been doing this for how long now? Just wait til players figure out how to jam garbage like Null Arca into their 29k bursts.

The busted sets/stats are not the fault of DK. Anything they release is gonna pull one shot crap like this until they do a massive set/stat overhaul.

? I’ve never taken or done a 29k burst combo vs good players without Incap debuff involved. Pure DK can pull that off consistently every 4s, while having 4.8k weapon damage and 3 def CPs. You’re gonna have to try harder than that.

Thumbless_Bot · March 11

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Not particularly fun playing ranged while everyone and their mother has an extra on-demand 50% mitigation vs my entire kit, but at least it doesn't reflect my entire kit like way back when.

Shouldn't need to slot a skill for this. If you are standing that far away your attacks should hit proportionately lower.

Melee attacks are much, much more risky and, thus, should grant a much, much greater reward... waaaay more damage. Right now the delta is not enough.

If you want to fight then fight. If you stand back and drop frags or snipe or pretty much any destro skill you shouldnt get rewarded with similar damage as say dizzy or dual wield skills. It's dumb. It is probably the single most imbalanced thing in this entire game.

I made a post on this before. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/665286/buff-weapon-based-single-target-melee-damage#latest

Ehh melee attacks against ranged players are not nearly the risk prospect that they used to be.

Bear in mind melee range is a bonkers 7m whereas a lot of counterplay skills only have a range of 5m, giving melee attackers a 2m buffer within which to attack and not be affected by AoE counterplay skllls.

Further, a good amount of melee skills and attacks have a wide breath of affect, meaning there’s a very gracious latitude to actually land a strike, whereas ranged DPS require a full target within the reticle.

Melee builds also have access to the entire suite of gap closers with subclassing now so the prospect of being at range is not as beneficial as it used to be since everyone can now close gap or keep up with them. It used to be Sorcs could streak away and maintain distance, but now everyone can have Streak or Toppling Charge or Teleport Strike, etc.

That’s all before the mechanical issues with range DPS weapon target recognition at proximity, meaning there’s inherent poor recognition staves and bows have on targets that are right up on them, making damage application incredibly clumsy on close targets.

The idea that melee attacks present an increase risk died with subclassing. Players can mitigate much of those approach risks with access to more skills and mechanics, plus they’re better able to manage their proximity with gap closers.

Add in the fact that melee players receive damage scaling from the same primary resource pool that they can also use to dodge & break free (plus the % bonus stamina scaling) and that’s even more benefit to melee players (Magicka range players can’t break free from CC using Magicka, which is their primary resource).

A melee players only real proximity risk, is another melee player, not a ranged DD.

Meh. These concerns are pretty mich all covered in the link. Including gap closers, resources, the attack types. Etc.

Nice long response, so, A for effort though. Except maybe the bonkers, yes, bonkers 7m range. I guess that is a great counter for 40m snipe. Oh and subclassing, the likelihood that subclassing somehow made melee competitive with ramge is... interesting to say the least.

Your response made me laugh more than once while reading through it. Thanks for that.

Anyway. This thread is about dk. Not interested in further discussing why melee needs a buff here. Happy to hop over to the other thread to do that though.

xylena · March 11

hoangdz wrote: »

I’ve never taken or done a 29k burst combo vs good players without Incap debuff involved. Pure DK can pull that off consistently every 4s

Are you really dying outside of your opponent's ult dump? I'm not.

Are you really getting 100% crit rate every 4sec? I'm not.

The only thing they're doing that's scary is the combo of unblockable stun + undodgeable leap ult + charged whip + delayed flame aoe, and if that one shots that is the same global set/stat problem, not a DK problem. The normal (heavily telegraphed) 14k on your CMX is not scary.

hoangdz · March 11

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I’ve never taken or done a 29k burst combo vs good players without Incap debuff involved. Pure DK can pull that off consistently every 4s

Are you really dying outside of your opponent's ult dump? I'm not.

Are you really getting 100% crit rate every 4sec? I'm not.

The only thing they're doing that's scary is the combo of unblockable stun + undodgeable leap ult + charged whip + delayed flame aoe, and if that one shots that is the same global set/stat problem, not a DK problem. The normal (heavily telegraphed) 14k on your CMX is not scary.

On my DK, I killed a meta subclass build used by a good player without needing an ult. Subclassed builds still need an ult to do that. Your point?

Yea the telegraphed 14k isn’t scary, until you realize it happens every 4s and can be easily sustained because DK for some reason has the best sustain in the game right now.

I don’t even care if it’s telegraphed. I can just repeat that 14k burst combo every 4s. That is the scary part. We are both on PC NA, so I’m willing to bring my DK to fight your subclassed build, just to prove a point, all ego set aside.

BXR_Lonestar · March 11

Honestly, it was always going to be this way. The only way they can get us to put down something broken (subclassing) is giving us something that is even more broken. This is what happens when you don't fix the baseline problem, but instead, try to tapdance AROUND the problem.

BardokRedSnow · March 11

smallhammer wrote: »

The new light-show of the DK is awful. But, you are right; Cyro is copy and paste.

It was worse with Arcanist lol green onion rings and granola beams everywhere XD my duo complained constantly about her eyes hurting lol.

It'll settle down when people realize they are probably better on their subclass builds still and go back to that while the OGs remain. Though I bet these changes will attract new fans.

BardokRedSnow · March 11

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Honestly, it was always going to be this way. The only way they can get us to put down something broken (subclassing) is giving us something that is even more broken. This is what happens when you don't fix the baseline problem, but instead, try to tapdance AROUND the problem.

In no reality is DK more broken than subclassing, fighting packs of DK has always been painful, at least prior to subclassing. So now that its brought at least up to par its normal again. People say this every time DK gets love because DK are frontline fighters, and the best for that role. And yet the people who were killing the most wasnt dk groups, it was yep, still ballgroups.

I just hope the forums keep the same energy for the warden refresh, and that Zos ignores the forums asking for nerfs at least till the refresh is complete, as much as possible anyway.

BardokRedSnow · March 11

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

Why do people want nerfs fr. I want to be as strong as I possibly can. Is it bc you were killed by it in PvP..?

ding ding ding

xylena · March 11

hoangdz wrote: »

On my DK, I killed a meta subclass build used by a good player

Are results the same if you duel an opponent who uses Restoring Light not Storm Calling? I've always found this split to be a pretty big difference in duels.

Your opponent probably wasn't healing much from Surge with that few damage sources, 4.2k dps is not gonna overpower better optimized duel specs that put out 5k+ hps.

BardokRedSnow · March 11

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I’ve never taken or done a 29k burst combo vs good players without Incap debuff involved. Pure DK can pull that off consistently every 4s

Are you really dying outside of your opponent's ult dump? I'm not.

Are you really getting 100% crit rate every 4sec? I'm not.

The only thing they're doing that's scary is the combo of unblockable stun + undodgeable leap ult + charged whip + delayed flame aoe, and if that one shots that is the same global set/stat problem, not a DK problem. The normal (heavily telegraphed) 14k on your CMX is not scary.

On my DK, I killed a meta subclass build used by a good player without needing an ult. Subclassed builds still need an ult to do that. Your point?

Yea the telegraphed 14k isn’t scary, until you realize it happens every 4s and can be easily sustained because DK for some reason has the best sustain in the game right now.

I don’t even care if it’s telegraphed. I can just repeat that 14k burst combo every 4s. That is the scary part. We are both on PC NA, so I’m willing to bring my DK to fight your subclassed build, just to prove a point, all ego set aside.

Thats definitely a lie, even with soul of flame or heart of flame, the 20 percent warden flat buff to stam and magicka is superior because it doesn't have to be activated, its just there, same with netch besides the cooldown, which to my knowledge is the only skill that grants the resource you use to block, while blocking, and in stamina's case even while sprinting.

Unless they change something, warden will always have the best sustain. DK has to build for sustain more than warden out the box, even with battle roar. What DK does have though is a ton of heals.