I will not know for sure until I see how things will be like with the new way of doing things; I did not log into PTS and check it out, so I'm waiting.

As I put in another thread, I always really enjoyed the endeavors and, while I used to feel that the Daily Login rewards were predatory, ZOS listened to feedback and after special rewards were moved to earlier in the month, I found I enjoyed them a lot more. I like the idea of being able to claim all the rewards on my own time, without a push to log in daily, but am concerned about the Battle Pass concept, how long rewards will be in the Tomes, if the time commitment to obtain the rewards will be similar, and if there are any other trade-offs I haven't anticipated. I have a lot of hirelings so I do have some incentive to log in every day still.

While I understand that the issue is that the month turned over, I think ZOS probably could have avoided some change management shock with this by leaving the two old systems in place until the patch dropped, and either dropping the old interface the next month (leaving us with bonus rewards) or providing daily endeavors and daily logins until patch day. Or leaving the interfaces with a message that these rewards will be migrating to a new location on 3/9, for the customers who aren't active on forums outside of the game.

AScarlato wrote: »

rhythmsuji wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

These poll options have quite the bias to them it feels, nor is it as simple as those responses.

Indeed, and it's petty of OP to create options like this to insult those who liked aspects of daily login rewards.

I already only logged in for daily rewards when there was something special I really wanted. It was a nice way to get cosmetics while not having to play artificially - all I had to do is log in and then I could quest, roleplay, or do housing as I want.

Now it seems I'll have to do a list of chores for the same rewards, and I'm not interested.

I don't believe I "insulted" people? I didn't call anyone any names or anything. Was it not a 24 hour deadline to gain the rewards? And the "YES" option is meant to be the option for people who felt strongly enough to be in that camp, and who shared these views for years.

I found it insulting.

You started with the premise that this was an emotional topic for some - maybe including yourself since you said you were heavily involved in the discourse and found yourself "shocked". Then you stated your own bias.

But then you crafted a poll response for the people disagreeing with you with "I miss 24 hour deadlines!" which makes people picking that just look absurd. Most people don't love being beholden to deadlines so I found it odd this is what you chose to describe the vote.

I think it's poor form to add an "extremist" description of what you are going for in this poll, especially one as unflattering as that. Did it not occur to you that maybe people just liked receiving a small gift upon logging in? Or that they could work towards a nicer goal later in the month even if they didn't have time to play? Or that they don't like artificial checklists and didn't need to look at Tome goals and do things they otherwise wouldn't? That daily logins were effortless and now you have to do a task for the same outcome?

I fail to see the value here especially after you began with a strong bias, a long argument for a Yes vote, and gave the most asinine description for the people who disagreed with what results you clearly are biased for.

I agree. They did this on Reddit too with a poorly designed poll made to elicit a certain response.

I tested Tomes + Gold Coast Bazaar on PTS and I like it.

There's some bugs and stuff to clean up, but overall, there's SO MUCH that's improving. I'm cautiously optimistic.

And... I don't think OP said anything insulting at all. I've seen OP around on reddit too and often find their comments often helpful, far from inflammatory.

I've also seen players make those types of statements they listed. It's normal to lead a piece of writing like that: "This was the opinion I've had, and here are supporting statements to explain why."

After having seen so many statements like those listed, so many players who disliked login rewards and daily busywork, it's normal to be surprised that there are some who will really miss it. (But a quiet majority is kind of expected – happy customers generally don't comment; that's true in every field.)

Then at the end OP said, "BUT I did find myself rooting for, and understanding the players who might be less able to play daily". OP is empathizing with both types of players. Again, normal for a piece of writing: "I now see the opinion I had may not be universal."

It just seems like people online latch on to a few words at the start, and go off on that without really reading the rest, nor trying to understand the meaning of the entire message holistically.

AScarlato wrote: »

MoonPile wrote: »

And... I don't think OP said anything insulting at all. I've seen OP around on reddit too and often find their comments often helpful, far from inflammatory.

Or we simply can see that biased polls are biased.

You voted in agreement with the bias so maybe you can’t. This person also argues with every comment on his YouTube video about the same topic who liked the rewards too. He’s not impartial and as empathetic as you claim.

I'm certainly not going to accept a suggestion that I'm simply incapable of reading, and understanding the OP's message holistically. Because...LOL.

I never claimed I don't have a bias, ive been extremely clear and open about it. And ive ever stated that I worded the poll in the form of which highlighted the strong positions for and against.

You claimed I insulted you for your opinion? Which I did not.

And you are claiming the poll is biased, even though nothing is forcing you to choose the option I side with. I could see that argument if I didn't provide one for keeping the mechanic set to a 24 hour deadline.


I am fine with you not wanting to use the poll, and even disagreeing with the type of poll. But please don't lie about me and what im doing, that's my only request. I am not insulting or bullying you, you don't like my opinion on the changes and that's fine. Disagreeing with you isn't "insulting" you.

shadoza wrote: »

Do you understand that weighting a poll in this fashion makes you look as if you are harassing those that do not agree with you? I like the incentive to log on daily. What ever nasty way you want to write that line is not going to make me like it less. I am not easily manipulated.

You are not meant to "like it less" just because of others opinions.

That is genuinely how many have seen it since its inception, in zero ways does that mean you must also see it that way. BUT it is true that it's popularly viewed in that way.

Just like people can say "It was a fantastic mechanic which gave me something fun to do every day that I love greatly, and ZOS ruined the game by removing it."

Doesn't make it reality or "manipulate" me into changing my viewpoint either. Me wording an option in a poll, in a way which ive seen so many state they feel over the years. I did not expect to be this controversial or be accused of trying to make you think a certain way. That's not how most peoples brains work right? It would be a bummer if we were so easily influenced, to hear someone else's opinion and then change your own instantly? So that's not the intent at all.

I expected those who disagreed, to just pick the second or third option. (I don't agree with the assessment of the 1st option, therefore ill pick 2 or 3.)

AScarlato wrote: »

rhythmsuji wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

These poll options have quite the bias to them it feels, nor is it as simple as those responses.

Indeed, and it's petty of OP to create options like this to insult those who liked aspects of daily login rewards.

I already only logged in for daily rewards when there was something special I really wanted. It was a nice way to get cosmetics while not having to play artificially - all I had to do is log in and then I could quest, roleplay, or do housing as I want.

Now it seems I'll have to do a list of chores for the same rewards, and I'm not interested.

I don't believe I "insulted" people? I didn't call anyone any names or anything. Was it not a 24 hour deadline to gain the rewards? And the "YES" option is meant to be the option for people who felt strongly enough to be in that camp, and who shared these views for years.

I found it insulting.

You started with the premise that this was an emotional topic for some - maybe including yourself since you said you were heavily involved in the discourse and found yourself "shocked". Then you stated your own bias.

But then you crafted a poll response for the people disagreeing with you with "I miss 24 hour deadlines!" which makes people picking that just look absurd. Most people don't love being beholden to deadlines so I found it odd this is what you chose to describe the vote.

I think it's poor form to add an "extremist" description of what you are going for in this poll, especially one as unflattering as that. Did it not occur to you that maybe people just liked receiving a small gift upon logging in? Or that they could work towards a nicer reward later in the month even if they didn't have time to play? Or that they don't like artificial checklists and didn't need to look at Tome goals and do things they otherwise wouldn't? That daily logins were effortless and now you have to do a task for the same outcome?

I fail to see the value here especially after you began with a strong bias, a long argument for a Yes vote, and gave the most asinine description for the people who disagreed with what results you clearly are biased for.

Okay, while I don't comprehend the insulting reaction. This comment gives me more I can work with and rationalize the disinterest of the poll options. And I can maybe better share what/why made me want the data this way. As I have zero issue having conversations about things and explaining myself without getting mean or attacking you, many times... people are just coming from different viewpoints and it's not necessary to just paint maliciousness willy-nilly.



I have agreed with many people about ZOS implementing a different daily task/adventure guide, or even mailed in login rewards similar to like GW2 does. I don't disagree with, or think negatively of people for enjoying these aspects and I would enjoy them as well.

But "Keeping the old system" is not harmless and innocent, and that is the discussion which has been occurring all over all the socials for days now. I have not seen a ton of the most upset people discussing alternative solutions which got rid of the intentionally psychologically harmful aspects of the old system, and thus if "keeping the old system" it would 100% include a 24 hour deadline as it always did, and which was always the problem for most players right?


So in my brain it translates to "I would prefer to keep the things I enjoy, even if they have a 24 hour deadline" Some people even straight up said they DID like the deadline and made arguments about players who show up every day should be rewarded over those who don't and accused me of advocating "hand-outs" for being against the deadline.

And the against option is obvious, as is the neutral option where someone doesn't care either way.

In zero ways was this intended to be "insulting" it was supposed to factually represent what we would be voting on. If it were a democracy. "yes we will get these positives back, but this is the cost" and its fine to think that's fine. Or even dislike the conversation or my opinion, but in zero worlds have I misrepresented WHAT it is nor have I insulted anyone. Simply stating what things are, should not be perceived that way.

Maybe this will help clear up some of the confusion

https://www.kantar.com/inspiration/research-services/unbiased-survey-questions-pf

Emeratis wrote: »

I will say that your poll comes across as more judgemental than the other one and does infer it knows the reason why people feel the way they do. It's part of why I voted the way I did here and it's also why some people are avoiding engaging with your poll versus the other one. If you want honest answers/data, even if you feel passionately about something, it's better to keep the poll options as objective as possible (yes, no, mixed, maybe, other, etc) because some people will be turned off by it, some people might read your poll options as literal and choose things they wouldn't otherwise, and some people might think your poll isn't worth being taken seriously. The yes in your poll reads like enthusiastic support/excitement and the no reads like you're insulting people and assuming they want to live their life on a timer if they are upset about the changes. There are a lot of ways to feel in between those two extremes, and for those who don't like the changes I understand why they feel a bit insulted by your wording.

I understood the disinterest in participating if an option didn't feel representative to the voter.

I am struggling with the "insulting" thing. BUT, I will say I can see the issue of when an option has more words... but then not ENOUGH words, people can read into it in different ways. An example is like above:

While I meant that people want us to return to the 24 hour deadline system in order to get their mechanics back.

One of the readers took it as me saying "they just want a deadline"

And I can see where that is not clear and I essentially created a "wtf does he mean by that" option lol.

I definitely did that with the top one as well, where some people are happy with the changes but probably not for those specific reasons or that strongly.

To me, I wanted to get "extreme" answers only. But it's seeming less and less worth that goal as we discuss it, this is definitely a learning experience for me. And I am fully open to the criticisms and learning from them, as long as the goal of the conversation is growth and getting to a better place. And not "lets bully the guy for doing it bad" lol.

I definitely did not intend to insult anyone, and my own mom was strongly in the camp of missing the endeavors and daily rewards. Her and I have had plenty of talks about it as well, and shes in the same boat as many. Where she loved the mechanics, but wishes they could have just removed the 24 hour requirement. And because the 24 hour requirement was there, and caused her to do unhealthy things... That she is also happy it's gone. But ONLY because of the 24 hour requirement. Which is where her and I have a middle ground agreement on, she wouldn't vote to "keep the old system" because that's part of it.

shadoza wrote: »

I find nothing genuine about this poll. It is intended to make those not agreeing with your vision sound inane.
I disagree that you expectations were less than bias.
As I stated I am not easily manipulated and I am not easily led astray. Let us just say we disagree with the value of a poll that is worded with malice and leave the rest go.

Alright, I mean I can only convey my thoughts. I can't make you believe my intent, and I am definitely getting used to people deciding such things regardless of my truth.

Either way, ive already acknowledged the issue and will do it differently in the future.


Luckily I have no power, and this was for my own curiosity. So no true harm was done, and at minimum I learned some stuff about making polls in the process lol.

shadoza wrote: »

rhythmsuji wrote: »

So, I have been seeing and getting involved in a LOT of discourse over this topic since the change. And some people are very emotionally charged over it as well.
It seems there were many people who had no idea the change was coming, and were a lot more people who silently loved the old setup, who I was not aware of existing. Im quite shocked at the backlash.

For the last decade, the only times I really saw opinions about daily login rewards and endeavors. It was negative. Almost entirely. Things such as:
1. “This is not real gameplay.”
2. “None of these missions are unique or engaging.”
3. “These are just quick pointless chores.”
4. “The rewards are trash.”
5. “Im sick of this fomo mechanic.”
6. “I got sick of feeling obligated to play daily just to get the currency or I have to feel bad. So I quit.”

Etc etc.

Personally, I play just about every day at least a little. So it was never a huge deal for me. BUT I did find myself rooting for, and understanding the players who might be less able to play daily. Or don’t have that drive and want to play when it sounds fun, not because they “need to get that fix” of the valuable seals currency haha.
So I just want to get a temperature check here. How many people on this sub thought it was a good thing, which they enjoyed? And how many wanted it gone, asked for it to be gone, and are happy?
Or how many don’t care much either way?

Thanks! 💚

-ESO Feanor

Do you understand that weighting a poll in this fashion makes you look as if you are harassing those that do not agree with you? I like the incentive to log on daily. What ever nasty way you want to write that line is not going to make me like it less. I am not easily manipulated.

Harassing is crazy. You are ironically trying so hard to exaggerate and demonize someone because you didn't like their opinion. You could simply disagree like an adult and criticize their choice of poll usage. A strong opinion about a game mechanic is not harassment, that might be the most privileged and reaching take ive seen in a while. You did not like poll options, you are not a victim.

rhythmsuji wrote: »

To me, I wanted to get "extreme" answers only.

well... you certainly did get some extreme answers XD

scrappy1342 wrote: »

rhythmsuji wrote: »

To me, I wanted to get "extreme" answers only.

well... you certainly did get some extreme answers XD

Not what I had in mind, but yeah here we are xD

TBH it is what it is, for the most part the information has been received. And I learned some stuff, unfortunately some took it a lot more personally than intended and hate me now, BUT we carry on lol.

rhythmsuji wrote: »

- Long post -

I'm glad you learned a bit about polling during the course of this thread. Have a good day.

.

ISO_Flow wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

rhythmsuji wrote: »

So, I have been seeing and getting involved in a LOT of discourse over this topic since the change. And some people are very emotionally charged over it as well.
It seems there were many people who had no idea the change was coming, and were a lot more people who silently loved the old setup, who I was not aware of existing. Im quite shocked at the backlash.

For the last decade, the only times I really saw opinions about daily login rewards and endeavors. It was negative. Almost entirely. Things such as:
1. “This is not real gameplay.”
2. “None of these missions are unique or engaging.”
3. “These are just quick pointless chores.”
4. “The rewards are trash.”
5. “Im sick of this fomo mechanic.”
6. “I got sick of feeling obligated to play daily just to get the currency or I have to feel bad. So I quit.”

Etc etc.

Personally, I play just about every day at least a little. So it was never a huge deal for me. BUT I did find myself rooting for, and understanding the players who might be less able to play daily. Or don’t have that drive and want to play when it sounds fun, not because they “need to get that fix” of the valuable seals currency haha.
So I just want to get a temperature check here. How many people on this sub thought it was a good thing, which they enjoyed? And how many wanted it gone, asked for it to be gone, and are happy?
Or how many don’t care much either way?

Thanks! 💚

-ESO Feanor

Do you understand that weighting a poll in this fashion makes you look as if you are harassing those that do not agree with you? I like the incentive to log on daily. What ever nasty way you want to write that line is not going to make me like it less. I am not easily manipulated.

Harassing is crazy. You are ironically trying so hard to exaggerate and demonize someone because you didn't like their opinion. You could simply disagree like an adult and criticize their choice of poll usage. A strong opinion about a game mechanic is not harassment, that might be the most privileged and reaching take ive seen in a while. You did not like poll options, you are not a victim.

You mean like said earlier when I stated: "I find nothing genuine about this poll. It is intended to make those not agreeing with your vision sound inane.
I disagree that your expectations were less than bias.
As I stated I am not easily manipulated and I am not easily led astray. Let us just say we disagree with the value of a poll that is worded with malice and leave the rest go."
I said leave it go but you chose not to.
Let us just say we disagree and leave it go. It isn't necessary to keep this going.