No More DMCA Addon Automatically Installed?

DenverRalphy · February 27

How did this addon automatically get installed on my console?

I understand the motivation behind it. I can even get behind it if presented properly.

But injecting an addon that tosses a giant splash screen upon every single login unless I go out of my way to disable the injected addon that I didn't ask for on every character was a bit much.

Sorry if I offend anyone. I honestly do sympathize with the motivation behind it. But this is a bit much.

@Baertram perhaps you can shed a bit of light upon this? Are addon authors supposed to be allowed to install additional addons (I already had one addon from this author installed) without consent?

Upon every login...

After which instructs you to disable it yourself via manage addons.

[edit]Typo

SummersetCitizen · February 27

Does it solicit IRL money when you follow the link?

ZOS_Kevin · February 27

HI @DenverRalphy . Do you know what addon is causing this issue? We are escalating to our team now to investigate.

Dolgubon · February 27

DenverRalphy wrote: »

How did this addon automatically get installed on my console?

The how: an add-on author just needs to mark it as a dependency on the Bethesda.net site. Then it will be automatically downloaded.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

@Baertram perhaps you can shed a bit of light upon this? Are addon authors supposed to be allowed to install additional addons (I already had one addon from this author installed) without consent?

Well, tbh in most situations that behaviour is, imo, preferable. For example, say I want to add a major feature to lazy writ crafter, but adding that new feature requires me to add a new library. On PC, users will login, have LWC disabled, and wonder what the heck is going on. Until they finally think to check the add-on menu, and see that 'oh, there's a new dependency'. Then, they need to open up another program, find the library, and download it. On consoles? It just gets downloaded and you never really notice anything odd. (That's also somewhat like how say, ESO works - if ESO needs some new library to work, it's just bundled with it and downloaded when you run the patcher)

This particular situation with this DMCA thing though, is taking advantage of that QOL. It's not something I plan to add as a dependency to LWC, but it doesn't really break any rules, afaik. And they were warned that people wouldn't like it.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

But injecting an addon that tosses a giant splash screen upon every single login unless I go out of my way to disable the injected addon that I didn't ask for on every character was a bit much.

After which instructs you to disable it yourself via manage addons.

It does seem like the author is planning to make it a little less annoying.

Dolgubon · February 27

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

HI @DenverRalphy . Do you know what addon is causing this issue? We are escalating to our team now to investigate.

https://mods.bethesda.net/en/elderscrollsonline/details/6a3d0e40-9d11-448e-9ca4-3fde5368880a/No_More_DMCA

Dolgubon · February 27

Dolgubon wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

HI @DenverRalphy . Do you know what addon is causing this issue? We are escalating to our team now to investigate.

https://mods.bethesda.net/en/elderscrollsonline/details/6a3d0e40-9d11-448e-9ca4-3fde5368880a/No_More_DMCA

The add-ons which require it (and thus cause the auto download) are others by the same author; and probably also Tamriel savings co

DenverRalphy · February 27

Dolgubon wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

How did this addon automatically get installed on my console?

The how: an add-on author just needs to mark it as a dependency on the Bethesda.net site. Then it will be automatically downloaded.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

@Baertram perhaps you can shed a bit of light upon this? Are addon authors supposed to be allowed to install additional addons (I already had one addon from this author installed) without consent?

Well, tbh in most situations that behaviour is, imo, preferable. For example, say I want to add a major feature to lazy writ crafter, but adding that new feature requires me to add a new library. On PC, users will login, have LWC disabled, and wonder what the heck is going on. Until they finally think to check the add-on menu, and see that 'oh, there's a new dependency'. Then, they need to open up another program, find the library, and download it. On consoles? It just gets downloaded and you never really notice anything odd. (That's also somewhat like how say, ESO works - if ESO needs some new library to work, it's just bundled with it and downloaded when you run the patcher)

This particular situation with this DMCA thing though, is taking advantage of that QOL. It's not something I plan to add as a dependency to LWC, but it doesn't really break any rules, afaik. And they were warned that people wouldn't like it.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

But injecting an addon that tosses a giant splash screen upon every single login unless I go out of my way to disable the injected addon that I didn't ask for on every character was a bit much.

After which instructs you to disable it yourself via manage addons.

It does seem like the author is planning to make it a little less annoying.

Thanks for your reply!

I do understand the need for being able to add libraries etc as an addon evolves. But in this case it's registered and installed as an entirely new addon, independent from the author's other addons.

And to be clear, I'm not faulting the author for their message nor their intent. I'm just a bit concerned with the approach, and more importantly the ability to do so.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

HI @DenverRalphy . Do you know what addon is causing this issue? We are escalating to our team now to investigate.

@ZOS_Kevin the addon in question is No More DMCA as @Dolgubon pointed out above. Thank you for the timely response.

Dolgubon · February 27

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Thanks for your reply!

I do understand the need for being able to add libraries etc as an addon evolves. But in this case it's registered and installed as an entirely new addon, independent from the author's other addons.

And to be clear, I'm not faulting the author for their message nor their intent. I'm just a bit concerned with the approach, and more importantly the ability to do so.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

HI @DenverRalphy . Do you know what addon is causing this issue? We are escalating to our team now to investigate.

@ZOS_Kevin the addon in question is No More DMCA as @Dolgubon pointed out above. Thank you for the timely response.

Mechanically, this is just adding a library. So most ways of blocking this off would unfortunately also block addons easily being able to add libraries - which may certainly be an acceptable loss to some.

It seems like the author has now also added a weekly cooldown. So you at least won't see it on every login anymore, even if you don't disable it entirely.

acastanza_ESO · February 27

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

HI @DenverRalphy . Do you know what addon is causing this issue? We are escalating to our team now to investigate.

I think this addon doing this in this way; a self-limiting notification was a reasonable response to malicious abuse of the DMCA that ZOS/Microsoft isn't helping the authors in question defend themselves against even though the attack this author is being subjected to is a violation of both ZOS and Microsoft's terms of service, and in a way that affects the entire community.

ZOS needs to deal with this attack first and engage their legal teams to take action against the malicious attacker FIRST.

allochthons · February 27

This isn't directly relevant to this discussion, I am aware. But when I saw the title of this thread, I thought it pertained to what I'm about to say, so I'm putting this here for Google and others who think the same thing.

If you put an add-on in your Library on mods.bethesda.net, it will auto-install when you next log in to ESO.
It took me hours to figure out why an add-on was auto-installing after I uninstalled it, and it turned out I had added it to my Library on the Bethesda site. It might also auto-install if you bookmark it, I'm not sure.

DenverRalphy · February 27

I would kiindly ask that the focus of this thread remain on the ability for addons to be installed without a player's consent. I would rather that it not digress toward the drama that motivated the creation of the addon in question to begin with.

Please attempt to remain on topic.

code65536 · February 27

So, in principle, this sort of mechanism is needed.

A few years ago, Combat Alerts was a large, monolithic addon, and I eventually split out part of its functionality out into a library, so that other addons can make use of it. Now, all this happened before console addons became a thing, but it's here as an illustration of why sometimes an addon will need a new component that was previously not needed.

The key here is that the end-user will have to trust the addon developer, that they don't abuse this admittedly necessary mechanism. Your consent was implicitly given when you trusted the addon developer enough to download their addon in the first place, and the question now is whether or not the developer violated that trust.

This particular case falls into a gray area. The thing that was added as a requirement is not actually necessary for the function of the addon, but there was also no malice involved, and arguments can be made regarding whether this was an appropriate or inappropriate use of this mechanism.

I follow a "no surprises" rule, so I personally would not have done it this way, but this particular case is... complicated.

FlopsyPrince · February 27

I did not see this issue just now, but I did find Votan's Minimap is gone.

DenverRalphy · February 27

code65536 wrote: »

So, in principle, this sort of mechanism is needed.
The key here is that the end-user will have to trust the addon developer, that they don't abuse this admittedly necessary mechanism. Your consent was implicitly given when you trusted the addon developer enough to download their addon in the first place, and the question now is whether or not the developer violated that trust.

This particular case falls into a gray area. The thing that was added as a requirement is not actually necessary for the function of the addon, but there was also no malice involved, and arguments can be made regarding whether this was an appropriate or inappropriate use of this mechanism.

I understand what you're saying. With all due respect (honestly, mad respect ), I don't know if I'd say that this particular case is a gray area though. Yes consent was given when I willingly installed their Fishing Map addon. But what the author injected was in no way associated with that addon, and thus no reasonable expectation of consent.

If the author had instead added a notification that pops up whenever I used or accessed a feature of their addon, which I did willingly install, then yes, that would have had a reasonable expectation of consent.

Being able to automatically inject standalone addons like in this instance is dangerously close to the kind of behavior exhibited by the perpetrator who kicked off all the melodrama over the past few months in the first place. Yes I recognize that in this particular case, it is and was not the intent. But looking at it from an objective standpoint, it's not far off the mark. Thankfully it was backed by good intentions.

code65536 · February 27

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Yes consent was given when I willingly installed their Fishing Map addon. But what the author injected was in no way associated with that addon, and thus no reasonable expectation of consent.

This is probably just an argument of semantics, but I would say that you consented to the author's addon and anything that the author deems to be necessary for that addon. I believe that the violation here wasn't one of consent, but one of trust, where the author pushed through something that did not meet the criteria of "necessary for that addon".

In any case, I would agree that this is a breach of that trust--that specific part is not gray. But it was also one done with no ill intention. It's like the difference between manslaughter and murder.

It's not something that I would've done, but I am also sympathetic to the circumstances that led them to pursue this. And that's why I called it gray.

DenverRalphy · February 27

code65536 wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Yes consent was given when I willingly installed their Fishing Map addon. But what the author injected was in no way associated with that addon, and thus no reasonable expectation of consent.

In any case, I would agree that this is a breach of that trust--that specific part is not gray. But it was also one done with no ill intention. It's like the difference between manslaughter and murder.

Absolutely agree here. Which is why I go out of my way to hilight this point in a couple of my comments. Because I know how easily it can be overlooked. And I'm only creating this reply to emphasize that point.

Gamer_sa22 · February 27

Finally got a Forum account so i can comment, The addon has been taken down, and i hope it uninstalls from all the affected systems.

Also apears that ZOS might be making a rule about it, to stop people from doing such a thing in the future.

Also ty for using fishing map, or my other addons

DenverRalphy · February 28

Gamer_sa22 wrote: »

Finally got a Forum account so i can comment, The addon has been taken down, and i hope it uninstalls from all the affected systems.

Also apears that ZOS might be making a rule about it, to stop people from doing such a thing in the future.

Also ty for using fishing map, or my other addons

@Gamer_sa22 Thank you for weighing in! Please know that this post in no way reflected my opinion on your work! I didn't bring attention the author's name (obviously you in this instance) because it wasn't relevant and didn't want misplaced attention.

Honestly, I was content with it being toned down to a 1 week cooldown and didn't wish for it to be taken down. Be assured that I was well aware of your intentions behind the effort, and as I mentioned in the OP it was a sentiment I could get behind.

I was more concerned about the system design itself, and the underlying possibility for abuse.

I'm a huge fan of your Fishing Map addon.

Baertram · February 28

I was more concerned about the system design itself, and the underlying possibility for abuse.

The system needs that design, else you cannot add any dependencies and would have to add the code of each library/ dependency into your addon folder. This would blow up size, loading times and makes all complicated (especially if the files are included with old data and never updated, and their version checks would be missing or fail to only load the newest version found in any subfolder).

Consoles automatically install the dependencies, else you'd have to search them all manually again (which most users complained about the most, for PC addons e.g., if they aren't using Minion 4 Alpha meanwhile).

Overall the "how it was done" maybe a surprise and should have had the 1 week cooldown from the start (but, seriously you could just move and it was gone, so no big deal imho?). But it reached many users and that was the intend, afaik.
Addons are doing this since ages, showing changlog, login messages etc. So what's the difference here now, just the QRcode!

Making it such a big thing now, so that ZOs needs to spend valuable resources on that topic finding words that maybe even disallow us to use some already implemeneted addon features like "popup messages with changelog etc.", instad of focusing on and supporting the affected humans by the real cause of the whole thing, that DMCAs, is just annoying :-(
Someone tried to help.

Maybe next time try to write the author, or write a PM to any addon dev so we can help to understand it, and find a better solution.
I got the feeling nowadays everyone starts a sh**storm first and complains about everything, but we simply cannot please all.
You need to think about things from different perspectives too.

Yeah, you all do not want to hear about that DMCAs and the costs it needs to get support, but you all are affected by it! No counter claim, no addons (or at least no saftey as addons will be DMCA again).
So maybe try to change your point of view and leave your comfort zone a bit, and support the topic rather than starting a witch hunt about features that help you provide proper and working addons in the end.

Thanks for considering this, and I know you all do not want to read such answers. You simply want to have fun and play.
SO DO WE! We want to have fun and not find any solutions for such l e g a l stuff, where then the only result is the next "rule" that happens because some cannot simply read, press forward once and done

DenverRalphy · February 28

Baertram wrote: »

I was more concerned about the system design itself, and the underlying possibility for abuse.

The system needs that design, else you cannot add any dependencies and would have to add the code of each library/ dependency into your addon folder. This would blow up size, loading times and makes all complicated (especially if the files are included with old data and never updated, and their version checks would be missing or fail to only load the newest version found in any subfolder).

Consoles automatically install the dependencies, else you'd have to search them all manually again (which most users complained about the most, for PC addons e.g., if they aren't using Minion 4 Alpha meanwhile).

Overall the "how it was done" maybe a surprise and should have had the 1 week cooldown from the start (but, seriously you could just move and it was gone, so no big deal imho?). But it reached many users and that was the intend, afaik.
Addons are doing this since ages, showing changlog, login messages etc. So what's the difference here now, just the QRcode!

Making it such a big thing now, so that ZOs needs to spend valuable resources on that topic finding words that maybe even disallow us to use some already implemeneted addon features like "popup messages with changelog etc.", instad of focusing on and supporting the affected humans by the real cause of the whole thing, that DMCAs, is just annoying :-(
Someone tried to help.

Maybe next time try to write the author, or write a PM to any addon dev so we can help to understand it, and find a better solution.
I got the feeling nowadays everyone starts a sh**storm first and complains about everything, but we simply cannot please all.
You need to think about things from different perspectives too.

Yeah, you all do not want to hear about that DMCAs and the costs it needs to get support, but you all are affected by it! No counter claim, no addons (or at least no saftey as addons will be DMCA again).
So maybe try to change your point of view and leave your comfort zone a bit, and support the topic rather than starting a witch hunt about features that help you provide proper and working addons in the end.

Thanks for considering this, and I know you all do not want to read such answers. You simply want to have fun and play.
SO DO WE! We want to have fun and not find any solutions for such l e g a l stuff, where then the only result is the next "rule" that happens because some cannot simply read, press forward once and done

I went out of my way to make it clear that my point had nothing to do with the whole DMCA drama. The motivation behind what happened was never in question. I even pointed out that I'm symmpathetic to the message for which it was intended. So please try to refrain from steering the subject in that direction.

And I do sincerely understand the reasoning behind the addon packaging and distribution model. However I believe that this particular example shows that there is room for improvement. Addon developers do need to be able to update and add libraries as they need. However there needs to be some form of sandboxed distribution protocol to limit that reach to prevent or mitigate abuse.

If that means console players may have to occasionally manually review and approve an addon's update because the update steps outside of the protocol, so be it. They're quite capable of doing so.

FlopsyPrince · March 1

Losing the minimap was the biggest hit to me. It seems to be back now and I am VERY APPRECIATIVE of that!

Baertram · March 1

I went out of my way to make it clear that my point had nothing to do with the whole DMCA drama. The motivation behind what happened was never in question. I even pointed out that I'm symmpathetic to the message for which it was intended. So please try to refrain from steering the subject in that direction.

I know, and my intention wasn't to break it down to "you". My post was meant more generic, that we should not overcomplicate things and try to add extra checks and whatever security measurements one can think of. ZOs did that all already.

I get that this popup wasn't the smartest way to achieve the goal, and regardless the matter it was added, should have been done differently.
But starting a "ZOs you need to do something against that!" post is just not helping, but maybe making it worse for all addons (regardless if Console or PC) in the end. We will see.

All I'm asking for is do not run to the official forums and call for ZOs to do anything, but contact the addon developers and talk with us first, please! Get the reason, understand mechanics better, and provide feedback that way.
That will help a lot and neither bring ZOs to any quick actions one could regret in the end, nor make the addon devs think all was okay -> Your feedback is heard.