SilverBride wrote: »

Paramedicus wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There are PvPers that only PvP. And that is fine because they are playing how they want to play.

Do you think they should ask ZOS to enable PvP in the Overland?

That is a completely different topic that has no bearing on this discussion.

The purpose of this question was to show that:

• the interests of different groups of players may conflict
• it is a bit selfish for a group that receives 90% of the game's content to want 100%

/script JumpToHouse("@Paramedicus")

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Paramedicus wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Paramedicus wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There are PvPers that only PvP. And that is fine because they are playing how they want to play.

Do you think they should ask ZOS to enable PvP in the Overland?

That is a completely different topic that has no bearing on this discussion.

The purpose of this question was to show that:

• the interests of different groups of players may conflict
• it is a bit selfish for a group that receives 90% of the game's content to want 100%

Nobody is asking for 100% of everything to revolve around one playstyle. In most games, the real friction tends to come from a small group of highly competitive players who sometimes act as though their way is the only valid way to enjoy the game. Solo and casual players usually just want to experience the game on their own terms, quietly progressing without much fanfare.

They aren't looking for constant praise or special treatment—they simply want reasonable space to enjoy what they paid for, and most are actually quite easy to satisfy when their preferences aren't dismissed or overridden.

My experience with ESO is quite different. Just read the feedback for the night market, where solo players ask (demand?) for this somewhat challenging content to be nerfed. There is a constant expectation that everything will be easy to beat in semi-AFK mode (isn't the Overland difficulty the best proof of this?). And of course, it's true that you'll encounter overzealous players who will nitpick your build that does 10% less damage than the meta, but if you're contributing 20% of what other players can do, you shouldn't be surprised to be called out on it.

You'll see far more players who don't know how to play the game and have the attitude that everyone should conform to their expectations because “they can play however they want”, than those annoying elitists (I think most of them left the game a while ago). I truly believe that the reason ZOS doesn't add any challenge to the story content (or at least better tutorials with skill checks) is because they are scared poopless of this very vocal causal part of community. Of course, this may be completely untrue, but you know, you kinda want to believe that there is a reason why ZOS keeps players so clueless, and that it's not just negligence.

/script JumpToHouse("@Paramedicus")

cyberjanet wrote: »

Quite frankly, if you're rushing through a dungeon at top speed, skipping the side and secret bosses, and the chests and heavy sacks, to get to your transmute crystals at the end, you're not even playing the game.

Not to mention when you look at guides for farming sets, PvP etc on YouTube or watch a stream - because yes, I sometimes do it - and they bring up the map to show where exactly where they are in a zone, you see they've done absolutely nothing except farm specific locations. How can you tell, you ask? There are no map icons except for where they farm. Or the dungeons. Or the trials. (Not everyone obviously, but a lot)

Not really the games fault they have nothing to do if they're not engaging with it.

As an afterthought, there was a lot of hype about story mode dungeons should not get rewards. By rewards they are speaking about the sets that drop in the dungeon.

I think story mode dungeons should drop rewards. Like Furnishing Plans. Furniture. Antiquity Leads. Rewards that are relevant to other aspects of the total game, not just speedracing.

This thread perfectly outlines what the biggest problem on this forum is.

freespirit wrote: »

Last night I spent a lovely couple of hours engaging in the guild chat of one of my guilds.

We discussed builds, scribing, subclassing, what a "tool tip" actually tells us, good sets and where to get them and so much more!

I learned some stuff and helped out a couple of newer players with answers to their questions.

We also had some silliness and real belly laughter..... guess what??

No grouping was necessary!!

Your guild isn't a group? Guilds are groups of up to 500 players, sharing information and helping each other out and maintaining a common bank. Being a member of a guild is being a member of a group.

freespirit wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

Last night I spent a lovely couple of hours engaging in the guild chat of one of my guilds.

We discussed builds, scribing, subclassing, what a "tool tip" actually tells us, good sets and where to get them and so much more!

I learned some stuff and helped out a couple of newer players with answers to their questions.

We also had some silliness and real belly laughter..... guess what??

No grouping was necessary!!

Your guild isn't a group? Guilds are groups of up to 500 players, sharing information and helping each other out and maintaining a common bank. Being a member of a guild is being a member of a group.

If you scroll back, there are a few posts suggesting the only way to learn group stuff, is to group, I was merely pointing out that is patently untrue.

I read every post in this thread.

What you just pointed out is the importance of grouping, not the other way around. Guilds are groups of people who share resources and information, as you just pointed out. To learn mechanics you have to form dungeon/trial groups and go into the dungeon/trial, but guilds are a form of grouping too.

robwolf666 wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

Last night I spent a lovely couple of hours engaging in the guild chat of one of my guilds.

We discussed builds, scribing, subclassing, what a "tool tip" actually tells us, good sets and where to get them and so much more!

I learned some stuff and helped out a couple of newer players with answers to their questions.

We also had some silliness and real belly laughter..... guess what??

No grouping was necessary!!

Your guild isn't a group? Guilds are groups of up to 500 players, sharing information and helping each other out and maintaining a common bank. Being a member of a guild is being a member of a group.

If you scroll back, there are a few posts suggesting the only way to learn group stuff, is to group, I was merely pointing out that is patently untrue.

I read every post in this thread.

What you just pointed out is the importance of grouping, not the other way around. Guilds are groups of people who share resources and information, as you just pointed out. To learn mechanics you have to form dungeon/trial groups and go into the dungeon/trial, but guilds are a form of grouping too.

I think you need to read it again then - they were very clearly saying they were discussing it in Guild chat not while they were playing in a group. You can very easily be running around solo while chatting in a Guild chat.

Being in a guild is being a member of a group. Guilds are groups of players. It's not a trial or dungeon group, but it is a group used for sharing information and resources.

Guilds ARE groups. Everyone in a guild is a member of a group.

reazea wrote: »

This thread perfectly outlines what the biggest problem on this forum is.

Paramedicus wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Paramedicus wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Paramedicus wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There are PvPers that only PvP. And that is fine because they are playing how they want to play.

Do you think they should ask ZOS to enable PvP in the Overland?

That is a completely different topic that has no bearing on this discussion.

The purpose of this question was to show that:

• the interests of different groups of players may conflict
• it is a bit selfish for a group that receives 90% of the game's content to want 100%

Nobody is asking for 100% of everything to revolve around one playstyle. In most games, the real friction tends to come from a small group of highly competitive players who sometimes act as though their way is the only valid way to enjoy the game. Solo and casual players usually just want to experience the game on their own terms, quietly progressing without much fanfare.

They aren't looking for constant praise or special treatment—they simply want reasonable space to enjoy what they paid for, and most are actually quite easy to satisfy when their preferences aren't dismissed or overridden.

My experience with ESO is quite different. Just read the feedback for the night market, where solo players ask (demand?) for this somewhat challenging content to be nerfed. There is a constant expectation that everything will be easy to beat in semi-AFK mode (isn't the Overland difficulty the best proof of this?). And of course, it's true that you'll encounter overzealous players who will nitpick your build that does 10% less damage than the meta, but if you're contributing 20% of what other players can do, you shouldn't be surprised to be called out on it.

You'll see far more players who don't know how to play the game and have the attitude that everyone should conform to their expectations because “they can play however they want”, than those annoying elitists (I think most of them left the game a while ago). I truly believe that the reason ZOS doesn't add any challenge to the story content (or at least better tutorials with skill checks) is because they are scared poopless of this very vocal causal part of community. Of course, this may be completely untrue, but you know, you kinda want to believe that there is a reason why ZOS keeps players so clueless, and that it's not just negligence.

SMH....

Ahh yes, the Mythical Toxic casual—because apparently wanting ESO content that's actually playable without a 300-page meta guide and a raid-or-die mindset makes you the villain of the story.

No... the data tells the opposite story: the Night Market PTS feedback is flooded with players—many solo—calling it far too difficult, dying instantly, unable to progress without groups, begging for nerfs or adjustable difficulty so casuals aren't locked out. ZOS isn't cowering to casuals; they're responding to a genuine outcry against content that's punishing for the average player.

The real vocal minority pushing back? The ones insisting it stays hard because "we need challenge" or "no new dungeons this year." But the volume of complaints leans heavily toward "this is excluding too many people," not "make it easier because I'm lazy.

"ZOS keeps story content accessible because that's what retains the massive casual base that funds the game—not negligence, and not fear of a handful of elitists. If anything, the pattern is clear: introduce bite, hear the backlash from the majority who just want to enjoy the lore without dying in one-shots, then soften it. That's business, not capitulation.

Respectfully: the casual "conquest" isn't a takeover—it's the playerbase ZOS built the game around. Demanding they suddenly pivot to vet-level everywhere risks emptying servers, not saving them.

Paramedicus wrote: »

I'm confused. Maybe it's because I have the flu and this topic is me having a fever dream, but I find it hard to understand why some people from the largest group of players (solo casuals) always try to portray themselves as an oppressed minority? Don't you feel any empathy towards those poor PvPers who haven't received any solid piece of content in a long time?

Players have issues that effect their enjoyment of the game, so they bring it to the forums looking for a resolution. That doesn't mean they don't have empathy for other players and their issues, but it's not reasonable to expect them to bring up everything that needs addressed in every thread they post.

SilverBride wrote: »

Paramedicus wrote: »

I'm confused. Maybe it's because I have the flu and this topic is me having a fever dream, but I find it hard to understand why some people from the largest group of players (solo casuals) always try to portray themselves as an oppressed minority? Don't you feel any empathy towards those poor PvPers who haven't received any solid piece of content in a long time?

Players have issues that effect their enjoyment of the game, so they bring it to the forums looking for a resolution. That doesn't mean they don't have empathy for other players and their issues, but it's not reasonable to expect them to bring up everything that needs addressed in every thread they post.

Some of these players should accept the fact that not every part of the game has to be available to everyone.

/script JumpToHouse("@Paramedicus")

This thread is in the weeds...just two sides trying to win ... and see how much they can insult the other side without getting moderated.

Look every Dungeon is going to be Soloable there is nothing that can be done about that ...and the are more than likely going to make a Story Mode for Trails and that is when the hardcores will really get upset

My prediction is they will be so upset about the casuals getting content that they will ignore the Difficulty levels overland

Mark my words.

The good news is the vast majority of players are casuals and it won't hurt the game that much in the long run.

Dungeoneers =/= trifecta teams.

A lot of people who play the dungeons each time they are drop are also playing them on normal and regular vet. And they also don't have content coming this quarter.

There's also a trial coming for group content.

Dynamic world events, trials, PvP, and the night market are all group content.

Also "is capable of clearing the content" is not the same thing as "wants the content that way."

ETA

I don't have an opinion of if it should be nerfed or not because I can't test it out. ZOS themselves asked players if the content is too difficult or not. So, everyone should get a say on if it is or isn't to them and that shouldn't be an issue.

Soarora wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Paramedicus wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Paramedicus wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Paramedicus wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There are PvPers that only PvP. And that is fine because they are playing how they want to play.

Do you think they should ask ZOS to enable PvP in the Overland?

That is a completely different topic that has no bearing on this discussion.

The purpose of this question was to show that:

• the interests of different groups of players may conflict
• it is a bit selfish for a group that receives 90% of the game's content to want 100%

Nobody is asking for 100% of everything to revolve around one playstyle. In most games, the real friction tends to come from a small group of highly competitive players who sometimes act as though their way is the only valid way to enjoy the game. Solo and casual players usually just want to experience the game on their own terms, quietly progressing without much fanfare.

They aren't looking for constant praise or special treatment—they simply want reasonable space to enjoy what they paid for, and most are actually quite easy to satisfy when their preferences aren't dismissed or overridden.

My experience with ESO is quite different. Just read the feedback for the night market, where solo players ask (demand?) for this somewhat challenging content to be nerfed. There is a constant expectation that everything will be easy to beat in semi-AFK mode (isn't the Overland difficulty the best proof of this?). And of course, it's true that you'll encounter overzealous players who will nitpick your build that does 10% less damage than the meta, but if you're contributing 20% of what other players can do, you shouldn't be surprised to be called out on it.

You'll see far more players who don't know how to play the game and have the attitude that everyone should conform to their expectations because “they can play however they want”, than those annoying elitists (I think most of them left the game a while ago). I truly believe that the reason ZOS doesn't add any challenge to the story content (or at least better tutorials with skill checks) is because they are scared poopless of this very vocal causal part of community. Of course, this may be completely untrue, but you know, you kinda want to believe that there is a reason why ZOS keeps players so clueless, and that it's not just negligence.

No... the data tells the opposite story: the Night Market PTS feedback is flooded with players—many solo—calling it far too difficult, dying instantly, unable to progress without groups, begging for nerfs or adjustable difficulty so casuals aren't locked out. ZOS isn't cowering to casuals; they're responding to a genuine outcry against content that's punishing for the average player.

The real vocal minority pushing back? The ones insisting it stays hard because "we need challenge" or "no new dungeons this year." But the volume of complaints leans heavily toward "this is excluding too many people," not "make it easier because I'm lazy.

Okay but listen, if ZOS did not give you your content for the year but are slated to make a more difficult version later in the year and create a new content that's enjoyable to you only for people to complain that it should be buffed to be super hard because people want it to be harder, how would you feel? Because that's exactly what's happening to dungeoneers right now. EVERYONE ELSE is getting content. There will be quests, there will be solo dungeons, there are PvP changes & 3-team battlegrounds, we don't know what the sage system will be, there will be dynamic overland events, there will be a trial. Dungeoneers get nothing except Night Market, unless the sage system is dungeon-related, please just let us have this.

Also, lets get the statistics right on the feedback thread (give or take one or two since some weren't cleanly into one group):
"It's difficult" but not explicitly saying it's too difficult: 3
Dependent on the population size: 7
Love the challenge but might be too hard for average player: 5
Love the challenge / don't nerf (didn't seem to exclusively solo): 22
Solo player who was fine with the challenge: 12
Solo player wanting it nerfed: 12
Group player wanting it nerfed: 1
Buff the night market: 2

Overall that's 41 people who are capable of clearing the content as it is right now, 13 people who want it nerfed, and 10 who are in the middle. I think the big thing here is that Night Market is group content and some people are really caught up on the stream saying "anyone can access it" (which they specifically said you can access it but you'll need to follow a group, but okay). I'm going to keep saying it, this really just seems like if trials were added for the first time now, there would be outrage.

The feedback thread looks flooded with feedback that it's too difficult but of the 12 people wanting it nerfed, seemingly about half the posts in there are written by 5 or so of them.

Dude I'm burnt out on statistics really because anyone can skew numbers to support their argument...but the hilarious thing about all of this is Hardcores could care less that the entire game is getting multiple difficulty levels nor do they care about all the reworks to PVP they don't even care that there are whispers of some type of Mythic Plus end game

Nope.... the REALLY big news is that casuals might get to solo a Dungeon they couldn't before

The Horror

But please tell me again how the casuals want everything.

SilverBride wrote: »

Group content shouldn't mean inaccessible to everyone that isn't meta. We are getting difficulty for overland so why shouldn't we get easier content for dungeons and trials? And if the Night Market is a major new feature with a new currency and a lot of rewards locked behind it, why should the average player be excluded?

I'm not asking for the same rewards in all difficulties, just the ability to enjoy the content.

(Craglorn failed badly when it was first introduced because of it's difficulty and forced grouping, so I don't know why the Night Market would be expected to succeed now.)

I usually don't play meta, I have one (1) character whose supposed to be meta and currently isn't (and is an argonian which isn't a meta dps race either). I played in a group on my thematic off-meta (even for frost warden) frost warden dps and that was completely fine. I also played on my pure sorc tank and that was completely fine.

We should get the solo mode for dungeons and sure, eventually trials. I think it'll benefit everyone. I don't want to play with people who don't want to play with me and I think for some people, solo content will be a stepping stone into doing the group versions in a less toxic way than trying to pug. For people who never want to group, that's fine too. I'll probably do the solo dungeons just to see the dungeons in a different and fresh way.

Night Market gets vastly easier if you have a player tank. It's not locked behind being an ultra omega good player, you need to either have a good enough solo build or find a group (like with group finder). What people are leaving out when talking about dying is a lot (not all) of the areas you go on "res to wayshrine" are very close to the boss area. You can spam die and still participate. Maybe ZOS should've added difficulty modes, I wouldn't mind, but they didn't.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Paramedicus wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Paramedicus wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Paramedicus wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There are PvPers that only PvP. And that is fine because they are playing how they want to play.

Do you think they should ask ZOS to enable PvP in the Overland?

That is a completely different topic that has no bearing on this discussion.

The purpose of this question was to show that:

• the interests of different groups of players may conflict
• it is a bit selfish for a group that receives 90% of the game's content to want 100%

Nobody is asking for 100% of everything to revolve around one playstyle. In most games, the real friction tends to come from a small group of highly competitive players who sometimes act as though their way is the only valid way to enjoy the game. Solo and casual players usually just want to experience the game on their own terms, quietly progressing without much fanfare.

They aren't looking for constant praise or special treatment—they simply want reasonable space to enjoy what they paid for, and most are actually quite easy to satisfy when their preferences aren't dismissed or overridden.

My experience with ESO is quite different. Just read the feedback for the night market, where solo players ask (demand?) for this somewhat challenging content to be nerfed. There is a constant expectation that everything will be easy to beat in semi-AFK mode (isn't the Overland difficulty the best proof of this?). And of course, it's true that you'll encounter overzealous players who will nitpick your build that does 10% less damage than the meta, but if you're contributing 20% of what other players can do, you shouldn't be surprised to be called out on it.

You'll see far more players who don't know how to play the game and have the attitude that everyone should conform to their expectations because “they can play however they want”, than those annoying elitists (I think most of them left the game a while ago). I truly believe that the reason ZOS doesn't add any challenge to the story content (or at least better tutorials with skill checks) is because they are scared poopless of this very vocal causal part of community. Of course, this may be completely untrue, but you know, you kinda want to believe that there is a reason why ZOS keeps players so clueless, and that it's not just negligence.

No... the data tells the opposite story: the Night Market PTS feedback is flooded with players—many solo—calling it far too difficult, dying instantly, unable to progress without groups, begging for nerfs or adjustable difficulty so casuals aren't locked out. ZOS isn't cowering to casuals; they're responding to a genuine outcry against content that's punishing for the average player.

The real vocal minority pushing back? The ones insisting it stays hard because "we need challenge" or "no new dungeons this year." But the volume of complaints leans heavily toward "this is excluding too many people," not "make it easier because I'm lazy.

Okay but listen, if ZOS did not give you your content for the year but are slated to make a more difficult version later in the year and create a new content that's enjoyable to you only for people to complain that it should be buffed to be super hard because people want it to be harder, how would you feel? Because that's exactly what's happening to dungeoneers right now. EVERYONE ELSE is getting content. There will be quests, there will be solo dungeons, there are PvP changes & 3-team battlegrounds, we don't know what the sage system will be, there will be dynamic overland events, there will be a trial. Dungeoneers get nothing except Night Market, unless the sage system is dungeon-related, please just let us have this.

Also, lets get the statistics right on the feedback thread (give or take one or two since some weren't cleanly into one group):
"It's difficult" but not explicitly saying it's too difficult: 3
Dependent on the population size: 7
Love the challenge but might be too hard for average player: 5
Love the challenge / don't nerf (didn't seem to exclusively solo): 22
Solo player who was fine with the challenge: 12
Solo player wanting it nerfed: 12
Group player wanting it nerfed: 1
Buff the night market: 2

Overall that's 41 people who are capable of clearing the content as it is right now, 13 people who want it nerfed, and 10 who are in the middle. I think the big thing here is that Night Market is group content and some people are really caught up on the stream saying "anyone can access it" (which they specifically said you can access it but you'll need to follow a group, but okay). I'm going to keep saying it, this really just seems like if trials were added for the first time now, there would be outrage.

The feedback thread looks flooded with feedback that it's too difficult but of the 12 people wanting it nerfed, seemingly about half the posts in there are written by 5 or so of them.

Dude I'm burnt out on statistics really because anyone can skew numbers to support their argument...but the hilarious thing about all of this is Hardcores could care less that the entire game is getting multiple difficulty levels nor do they care about all the reworks to PVP they don't even care that there are whispers of some type of Mythic Plus end game

Nope.... the REALLY big news is that casuals might get to solo a Dungeon they couldn't before

The Horror

But please tell me again how the casuals want everything.

Then go look at the thread and count it yourself. I admitted there's a little bias here and there but I was only unsure about like 3 people. The people who were arguing against the solo dungeons were also only like 3 people. You're blanket basketing everyone who plays above a casual level into one group. Most PvE players don't care about PvP and overland (and the difficulty levels to me is no different than changing difficulty in a single player game, I can't even play Legendary on Skyrim so I don't suspect I'll be playing Vestige mode). No idea what rumors you're talking about either. I wouldn't even consider myself hardcore, my favorite content in the game is teaching people veteran and hard mode dungeons. I tried to break into dungeon speedruns but gave up because I'm not the perfect theorycrafter yet and 100% of the time I play below scorepush level of skill.

I also argued on the "solo dungeons will kill the MMO" thread in support of solo dungeons so I don't know why you're yelling at me about casuals soloing dungeons.

Edit: Also, mind you, I was a casual from early 2019 until 2021. I know exactly what it's like to be a casual.