MMO does NOT mean Grouping

Radiate77 · January 24

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

This illusion that Solo players have been catered to is dismantled with just a few easy to answer questions…

-First, with One Tamriel definitively killing Overland in 2016, Overland is now finally getting attention… what year is it?

-Second, when was the last time we received any end-game solo content like an Arena?

Now one can make the claim that Questlines are solo content and with each new zone we’ve been “catered to” but even solo players are unhappy with these.

What we have had though, is a new trial and two new dungeon packs, yearly. The pile of repeatable group content has been growing each year, while someone who prefers solo content has been left with one and done quests that are so “accessible” that they could be played on a Guitar Hero guitar.

ZOS has been favoring the solo players over group players since circa 2016. That's why GH is hurting so bad and Project Vitality left after U35. Now virtually no tutorials or anyone to teach the newbies how to compete.

I don’t see an answer to either of my two very easy, basic questions in this response.

Simply saying, “ZOS has been favoring the solo players over group players since circa 2016” does not detract from the lack of repeatable content solo players have access to.

Grayhost is hurting from a lack of development, and U35 was a mess irregardless of your preferred group size.

tomofhyrule · January 24

Radiate77 wrote: »

Now one can make the claim that Questlines are solo content and with each new zone we’ve been “catered to” but even solo players are unhappy with these.

So... "solo players never get any content! Except all of the content that they have gotten, but that doesn't count."

It's very easy to see when you aren't getting content when other people are. And it's' easy to write off content that you get that doesnt fit exactly the way you like it. After all, let's ask the PvP community how they enjoyed the "new PvP content!" they got in 2022.
(Yes, Tales of Tribute is techincally PvP content since you play against other players. But literally nobody meant that when they wanted new PvP content.)

We do need to realize that there are not two (ok, three) monoliths in ESO. It's not solo vs group vs PvP. Ignoring the fact that those can overlap, it's also that each of those 'monoliths' contains a lot of different playstyles, and that means something that's satisfying to one part isn't globally popular.

When we talk about 'solo players,' that can include the "I'm just here for the fashion" and the "I'm here to build an epic house!" and "I just want to chill and pick flowers" and "I love to explore the beautiful zones and do dailies" and "I'm here for the stories" and "I'm here to push myself" groups. Obviously that last group is unsatisfied with the zone stories... but there's another group there that is satisfied and has been catered to every patch.

What about groups? "I like dungeons with my friends" and "I like trials with my friends" and "I like running things with randoms" and "I like to play solo, but zergsurf in hard content." Again, not everything is good for everyone, and there are Dungeon people specifically pointing out why the upcoming Night Market is 0% satisfying for them, leaving them with literally nothing this year.

And PvP has "Grey Host" "Imperial City" "Battlegrounds" "old BGs" and now "Vengeance" all there. We already see that the Vengeance and Grey Host crowds are not at all satisfied with the other.

So maybe trying to reduce everything to "group A got something so now group A needs to shut up so group B can get something" isn't a perfect argument... especially if it's more like "group A subset 1 got something so group A subset 2 who got nothing needs to just do thing 1 because it's time to focus on group B, because even though group B subset 2 gets something every patch, we need to give something to group B subset 1."

robwolf666 · January 24

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

I agree that end game content requires grouping. I don't agree that MMOs require all players to do group end game content.

The only thing in ESO that doesn't require grouping is overland questing. There is a lot of it, but it's not challenging in any way and doesn't prepare players for anything end game.

So if someone refuses to group they won't be able to compete at any level in ESO. So it's not toxic for groups to kick these players from group if they haven't put in any effort to learn mechanics or builds. Players who refuse to group don't have the right to claim to be victims of anything other than their own choices.

There’s plenty of “endgame” content in ESO that can be soloed, including a significant number of dungeons. I’ve personally soloed many of them — the only ones I haven’t are those with hard mechanical blockers that literally require more than one player (pressure plates, split levers, etc.).

As for “not putting in effort” — soloing content requires more effort, not less. My builds are made to survive, sustain, and adapt without a tank, healer, or safety net. That means understanding mechanics and class interactions, not just copying a meta build off YouTube and relying on group roles to cover mistakes.

And I don’t recall anyone here claiming to be a “victim.” What people are pushing back against is gatekeeping — especially at the mere suggestion of optional solo story modes for dungeons. Nobody is asking for group content to be removed or devalued, just for additional ways to experience it.

Choosing not to group doesn’t make someone lazy or unskilled. It just means they’re engaging with ESO differently — which the game has supported since launch.

It's not gatekeeping to demand that group members know mechanics and builds. Do the work and put in the effort and you'll be welcome in group. Kinda like in real life. There are no free carries.

I don’t disagree that a lot of work goes into meta builds — but that work is done by the person who originally theorycrafted and tested them. Copying a finished build isn’t the same thing as understanding one, and it certainly isn’t the same as designing a build that can function without a tank, healer, or group synergy to fall back on. Or does copy/paste count as "work" and "effort" now?

Frayton · January 24

It seems like the contention point is there are players who still remember when multiplayer meant playing together in a group with another player or players to cooperate in achieving a goal or to compete against each other. This meaning was universal across all genres of games, not just MMOs. Multiplayer did not mean multiple players playing alone together. I don't know when this redefinition crept in, but I do notice that the alone-together sentiment has become more prevalent in society as a whole in recent years, not just in ESO.

If you don't want other people around, I don't get why you don't just play a single player game, and I also don't care if you play an MMO as a solo game. You can hold both opinions without contradiction. I play MMOs solo sometimes bc I like the interaction with other players outside of group content. Maybe that's OP's point, but I'm also not going to pretend that multiplayer means playing alone in isolation while others around you are also in their personal bubbles playing alone together. That's a bit dystopic.

SilverBride · January 24

Frayton wrote: »

It seems like the contention point is there are players who still remember when multiplayer meant playing together in a group with another player or players to cooperate in achieving a goal or to compete against each other. This meaning was universal across all genres of games, not just MMOs. Multiplayer did not mean multiple players playing alone together. I don't know when this redefinition crept in, but I do notice that the alone-together sentiment has become more prevalent in society as a whole in recent years, not just in ESO.

If you don't want other people around, I don't get why you don't just play a single player game, and I also don't care if you play an MMO as a solo game. You can hold both opinions without contradiction. I play MMOs solo sometimes bc I like the interaction with other players outside of group content. Maybe that's OP's point, but I'm also not going to pretend that multiplayer means playing alone in isolation while others around you are also in their personal bubbles playing alone together. That's a bit dystopic.

Many "solo" players do want other players around. They just don't want to have to formally group with them for content they may not be interested in. As was pointed out in some earlier posts there are many ways to interact with others besides formal groups for dungeons or trials. Why should they have to play a single player game and miss out on that?

Soarora · January 24

Radiate77 wrote: »

This illusion that Solo players have been catered to is dismantled with just a few easy to answer questions…

-First, with One Tamriel definitively killing Overland in 2016, Overland is now finally getting attention… what year is it?

-Second, when was the last time we received any end-game solo content like an Arena?
(Hint: Not Infinite Archive)

Now one can make the claim that Questlines are solo content and with each new zone we’ve been “catered to” but even solo players are unhappy with these.

What we have had though, is a new trial and two new dungeon packs, yearly. The pile of repeatable group content has been growing each year, while someone who prefers solo content has been left with one and done quests that are so “accessible” that they could be played on a Guitar Hero guitar.

I don’t think any group’s been catered to considering we’ve all become increasingly unhappy with the game. Only people who are happy seem to be people who are blissfully unaware anyway. There’s less quests for questers and the quality has decreased substantially, combat is wildly out of balance for PvP and group PvE, Account Wide Achievements plus the decreased listing times for guild traders plus the decreased drops from events hits literally everyone too. Even Tales of Tribute players seem unhappy with ToT balance!

I am curious why IA doesn’t count, it is arena-styled (waves of combat). I do think we’re due for another real arena though. I guess we did run out of skills to buff with arena weapons but… there is the ultimate still. Or can start doubling up.

Yeah, the quests are… not great… I haven’t been happy as a quester since Greymoor. I think Markarth is when it started going downhill.

There has been a trial every year but I would like to correct that we did not have 4 dungeons every year. We did last year but 2023 and 2024 only had 2 of the usual 4 (just like how 2023 and 2024 only had a “chapter” and no “story dlc”). Begging on my knees for the ability to repeat quests.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

This illusion that Solo players have been catered to is dismantled with just a few easy to answer questions…

-First, with One Tamriel definitively killing Overland in 2016, Overland is now finally getting attention… what year is it?

-Second, when was the last time we received any end-game solo content like an Arena?

Now one can make the claim that Questlines are solo content and with each new zone we’ve been “catered to” but even solo players are unhappy with these.

What we have had though, is a new trial and two new dungeon packs, yearly. The pile of repeatable group content has been growing each year, while someone who prefers solo content has been left with one and done quests that are so “accessible” that they could be played on a Guitar Hero guitar.

ZOS has been favoring the solo players over group players since circa 2016. That's why GH is hurting so bad and Project Vitality left after U35. Now virtually no tutorials or anyone to teach the newbies how to compete.

Project Vitality did not shut down because of favoring solo players. Yes, U35 was ZOS trying to raise the floor but the floor doesn’t need to be raised for solo, it was to lower the gap in GROUP content. Of course, it didn’t work, but that’s because the floor is low due to lack of information told by the game, the sharp difficulty spike in content (I think the harder overland options will help this), and the fact that most sets are flat out uncompetitive with each other (even if sourced from similar locations).

Frayton · January 25

SilverBride wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

It seems like the contention point is there are players who still remember when multiplayer meant playing together in a group with another player or players to cooperate in achieving a goal or to compete against each other. This meaning was universal across all genres of games, not just MMOs. Multiplayer did not mean multiple players playing alone together. I don't know when this redefinition crept in, but I do notice that the alone-together sentiment has become more prevalent in society as a whole in recent years, not just in ESO.

If you don't want other people around, I don't get why you don't just play a single player game, and I also don't care if you play an MMO as a solo game. You can hold both opinions without contradiction. I play MMOs solo sometimes bc I like the interaction with other players outside of group content. Maybe that's OP's point, but I'm also not going to pretend that multiplayer means playing alone in isolation while others around you are also in their personal bubbles playing alone together. That's a bit dystopic.

Many "solo" players do want other players around. They just don't want to have to formally group with them for content they may not be interested in. As was pointed out in some earlier posts there are many ways to interact with others besides formal groups for dungeons or trials. Why should they have to play a single player game and miss out on that?

Yes, that's the gist of what I said. I'm specifically referring to those who don't want to interact with others at all. I don't mean solo players who enjoy interacting with others. As I said, I sometimes play solo, but I still enjoy interacting with others outside of groups and will occasionally group briefly to complete a common goal (event bosses, WBs, etc.).

robwolf666 · January 25

Frayton wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

It seems like the contention point is there are players who still remember when multiplayer meant playing together in a group with another player or players to cooperate in achieving a goal or to compete against each other. This meaning was universal across all genres of games, not just MMOs. Multiplayer did not mean multiple players playing alone together. I don't know when this redefinition crept in, but I do notice that the alone-together sentiment has become more prevalent in society as a whole in recent years, not just in ESO.

If you don't want other people around, I don't get why you don't just play a single player game, and I also don't care if you play an MMO as a solo game. You can hold both opinions without contradiction. I play MMOs solo sometimes bc I like the interaction with other players outside of group content. Maybe that's OP's point, but I'm also not going to pretend that multiplayer means playing alone in isolation while others around you are also in their personal bubbles playing alone together. That's a bit dystopic.

Many "solo" players do want other players around. They just don't want to have to formally group with them for content they may not be interested in. As was pointed out in some earlier posts there are many ways to interact with others besides formal groups for dungeons or trials. Why should they have to play a single player game and miss out on that?

Yes, that's the gist of what I said. I'm specifically referring to those who don't want to interact with others at all. I don't mean solo players who enjoy interacting with others. As I said, I sometimes play solo, but I still enjoy interacting with others outside of groups and will occasionally group briefly to complete a common goal (event bosses, WBs, etc.).

Would this be a good time to quote ZOS again? "Play how you want..."

SilverBride · January 25

Frayton wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

It seems like the contention point is there are players who still remember when multiplayer meant playing together in a group with another player or players to cooperate in achieving a goal or to compete against each other. This meaning was universal across all genres of games, not just MMOs. Multiplayer did not mean multiple players playing alone together. I don't know when this redefinition crept in, but I do notice that the alone-together sentiment has become more prevalent in society as a whole in recent years, not just in ESO.

If you don't want other people around, I don't get why you don't just play a single player game, and I also don't care if you play an MMO as a solo game. You can hold both opinions without contradiction. I play MMOs solo sometimes bc I like the interaction with other players outside of group content. Maybe that's OP's point, but I'm also not going to pretend that multiplayer means playing alone in isolation while others around you are also in their personal bubbles playing alone together. That's a bit dystopic.

Many "solo" players do want other players around. They just don't want to have to formally group with them for content they may not be interested in. As was pointed out in some earlier posts there are many ways to interact with others besides formal groups for dungeons or trials. Why should they have to play a single player game and miss out on that?

Yes, that's the gist of what I said. I'm specifically referring to those who don't want to interact with others at all. I don't mean solo players who enjoy interacting with others. As I said, I sometimes play solo, but I still enjoy interacting with others outside of groups and will occasionally group briefly to complete a common goal (event bosses, WBs, etc.).

Thanks for clarifying.

Meridiano · January 25

I'm totally fine with solo-mode / story-mode EVERYWHERE, as long as participating players don't recieve the same awards as veteran players who put a lot of time and efforts into their gitgud. Otherwise, it would be a total disrespect to such players, and a tough blow to rewards value.

You want to complete Cloudrest solo? Sure, it's so cool. Just don't expect a single piece of trial gear. Overland sets should be enough in such case. Summerset, right? So, Wisdom of Vanus, Grace of Gloom, Gryphon's Ferocity.

This would be fair. Sounds like a good proposal overall.

robwolf666 · January 25

Meridiano wrote: »

I'm totally fine with solo-mode / story-mode EVERYWHERE, as long as participating players don't recieve the same awards as veteran players who put a lot of time and efforts into their gitgud. Otherwise, it would be a total disrespect to such players, and a tough blow to rewards value.

Exactly the same rewards? No, of course not - but I think a variant of that same reward for doing the same content on a lower difficulty would be fine. For example: You get the same set, but the buffs, or whatever, on them are different - not as powerful.

Personally, I'd be more interested in furnishing rewards than sets anyway, since I'm not a set chaser, and never have been.

Meridiano · January 25

robwolf666 wrote: »

A variant of that same reward for doing the same content on a lower difficulty would be fine. For example: You get the same set, but the buffs, or whatever, on them are different - not as powerful.

Agreed. If players could loot the same gear with 5pc bonus disabled, that would be also fine. My main idea is this: public-dungeon-level difficulty should provide public-dungeon-level rewards. If this is the (hypothetical) course, I'm full into it, why not? It benefits both sides.

Shourrs · January 25

SilverBride wrote: »

MMO only means there are multiple players in the game world at the same time. It does NOT mean that we have to group with them. Yet we frequently hear things like:
"It's an MMO and that means grouping."

"If you don't want to group maybe an MMO isn't the right game for you."

"If players only do solo content it makes it harder for others to find groups."

None of those are true. The game world is like real life in that each player can go about their day doing the things that they enjoy. And they should not be pressured or judged because of how they choose to spend their time.

MMO means grouping
> It does. It doesn't mean that you must group. It does mean that you can. If you can, you should have content for it. This content must be harder than content for solo play or group playing will be boaring.
If you don't like grouping, MMO isn't the right game for you.
> This is true not because you must group in MMOs but because there are many much better solo games. Don't waste your time in an environment that must balance gameplay between different modes and different playstyles.
Is it harder to find groups?
> It isn't. Not significantly.

You aren't pressured to join groups. You just won't be able to experience the whole game
.
I agree that there are parts of the game that aren't well designed:

The overland content in Cyrodiil where you have to find either a campaign where your alliance rules unchallenged or a dead one, where you won't be bothered by other people.
Events shouln't take place in zones designed for groups like IC where you will be killed by people not making any difference between enemies and questers.
You have no events in PVE where you must group (even if some are much easier if you do). This should be true for PvP, too.

Solutions for both might be Cyrodiil/IC instances where you cannot go PvP but won't have any progress towards alliance progress/tel var/... or disabeling your skills while making others unable to attack you. Both seem worse than just not to make events in war zones.

JustLovely · January 25

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

I've never seen an MMO that didn't require grouping for the majority of the content. MMO's do have a lot of content to be completed solo, but the end game content is always group content. So ya, grouping is required if a player wants to play most of the MMO's content.

But after reading through this questionable thread it's clear the OP wasn't really posting to make a point about grouping. It's about pushing more solo content to the exclusion of group content because they don't like grouping themselves.

SilverBride · January 25

Shourrs wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

If you don't like grouping, MMO isn't the right game for you.

This is true not because you must group in MMOs but because there are many much better solo games...
You aren't pressured to join groups. You just won't be able to experience the whole game.

Not everyone wants to experience the whole game, and many don't but it's only the solo players that are being told this. No one tells the players that ONLY PvP that they are not experiencing the whole game. Or those that ONLY do end game and never experience the overland quests and story that they are not experiencing the whole game. It's only those that don't want to join formal groups and run end game content that are being singled nout.

Plus, as was touched on in this thread previously, there are many ways to interact with other player besides hard grouping and ESO provides that experience. Why should those that don't enjoy grouped end game content leave a game that not only provides the experience they want but does it in an environment full of others to become friends with and share the content they all enjoy together?

JustLovely · January 25

robwolf666 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

I agree that end game content requires grouping. I don't agree that MMOs require all players to do group end game content.

The only thing in ESO that doesn't require grouping is overland questing. There is a lot of it, but it's not challenging in any way and doesn't prepare players for anything end game.

So if someone refuses to group they won't be able to compete at any level in ESO. So it's not toxic for groups to kick these players from group if they haven't put in any effort to learn mechanics or builds. Players who refuse to group don't have the right to claim to be victims of anything other than their own choices.

There’s plenty of “endgame” content in ESO that can be soloed, including a significant number of dungeons. I’ve personally soloed many of them — the only ones I haven’t are those with hard mechanical blockers that literally require more than one player (pressure plates, split levers, etc.).

As for “not putting in effort” — soloing content requires more effort, not less. My builds are made to survive, sustain, and adapt without a tank, healer, or safety net. That means understanding mechanics and class interactions, not just copying a meta build off YouTube and relying on group roles to cover mistakes.

And I don’t recall anyone here claiming to be a “victim.” What people are pushing back against is gatekeeping — especially at the mere suggestion of optional solo story modes for dungeons. Nobody is asking for group content to be removed or devalued, just for additional ways to experience it.

Choosing not to group doesn’t make someone lazy or unskilled. It just means they’re engaging with ESO differently — which the game has supported since launch.

It's not gatekeeping to demand that group members know mechanics and builds. Do the work and put in the effort and you'll be welcome in group. Kinda like in real life. There are no free carries.

I don’t disagree that a lot of work goes into meta builds — but that work is done by the person who originally theorycrafted and tested them. Copying a finished build isn’t the same thing as understanding one, and it certainly isn’t the same as designing a build that can function without a tank, healer, or group synergy to fall back on. Or does copy/paste count as "work" and "effort" now?

You made the point that grouping in MMO's is hugely important. You can't learn about builds and mechanics without grouping.

JustLovely · January 25

SilverBride wrote: »

Shourrs wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

If you don't like grouping, MMO isn't the right game for you.

This is true not because you must group in MMOs but because there are many much better solo games...
You aren't pressured to join groups. You just won't be able to experience the whole game.

Not everyone wants to experience the whole game, and many don't but it's only the solo players that are being told this. No one tells the players that ONLY PvP that they are not experiencing the whole game. Or those that ONLY do end game and never experience the overland quests and story. It's only those that don't want to join formal groups and run end game content that are being singled nout.

Plus, as was touched on in this thread previously, there are many ways to interact with other player besides hard grouping and ESO provides that experience, so yes it is the right game for everyone to enjoy in their own way.

PvP is all PvE plus PvP. So the PvP players are already doing almost all if not all the solo content before they take part in PvP. Solo content being way too easy is why so many struggle when they try to run in groups or PvP. It takes a lot more awareness, time, experience and knowledge to take part in group activities like PvP and even more to PvP solo.

I would kindly ask you to stop promoting the extreme skill gap that creates so many problems in ESO.

robwolf666 · January 25

JustLovely wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

I agree that end game content requires grouping. I don't agree that MMOs require all players to do group end game content.

The only thing in ESO that doesn't require grouping is overland questing. There is a lot of it, but it's not challenging in any way and doesn't prepare players for anything end game.

So if someone refuses to group they won't be able to compete at any level in ESO. So it's not toxic for groups to kick these players from group if they haven't put in any effort to learn mechanics or builds. Players who refuse to group don't have the right to claim to be victims of anything other than their own choices.

There’s plenty of “endgame” content in ESO that can be soloed, including a significant number of dungeons. I’ve personally soloed many of them — the only ones I haven’t are those with hard mechanical blockers that literally require more than one player (pressure plates, split levers, etc.).

As for “not putting in effort” — soloing content requires more effort, not less. My builds are made to survive, sustain, and adapt without a tank, healer, or safety net. That means understanding mechanics and class interactions, not just copying a meta build off YouTube and relying on group roles to cover mistakes.

And I don’t recall anyone here claiming to be a “victim.” What people are pushing back against is gatekeeping — especially at the mere suggestion of optional solo story modes for dungeons. Nobody is asking for group content to be removed or devalued, just for additional ways to experience it.

Choosing not to group doesn’t make someone lazy or unskilled. It just means they’re engaging with ESO differently — which the game has supported since launch.

It's not gatekeeping to demand that group members know mechanics and builds. Do the work and put in the effort and you'll be welcome in group. Kinda like in real life. There are no free carries.

I don’t disagree that a lot of work goes into meta builds — but that work is done by the person who originally theorycrafted and tested them. Copying a finished build isn’t the same thing as understanding one, and it certainly isn’t the same as designing a build that can function without a tank, healer, or group synergy to fall back on. Or does copy/paste count as "work" and "effort" now?

You made the point that grouping in MMO's is hugely important. You can't learn about builds and mechanics without grouping.

No I didn't.. lol. Or are you trying to say it's takes a group of people to be able to learn something in endgame? I learned to do my builds by myself, I didn't need help, or someone else to do it for me.

SilverBride · January 25

JustLovely wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Shourrs wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

If you don't like grouping, MMO isn't the right game for you.

This is true not because you must group in MMOs but because there are many much better solo games...
You aren't pressured to join groups. You just won't be able to experience the whole game.

Not everyone wants to experience the whole game, and many don't but it's only the solo players that are being told this. No one tells the players that ONLY PvP that they are not experiencing the whole game. Or those that ONLY do end game and never experience the overland quests and story. It's only those that don't want to join formal groups and run end game content that are being singled nout.

Plus, as was touched on in this thread previously, there are many ways to interact with other player besides hard grouping and ESO provides that experience, so yes it is the right game for everyone to enjoy in their own way.

PvP is all PvE plus PvP. So the PvP players are already doing almost all if not all the solo content before they take part in PvP. Solo content being way too easy is why so many struggle when they try to run in groups or PvP. It takes a lot more awareness, time, experience and knowledge to take part in group activities like PvP and even more to PvP solo.

I would kindly ask you to stop promoting the extreme skill gap that creates so many problems in ESO.

There are PvPers that only PvP. And that is fine because they are playing how they want to play. The same with some end game players. And everyone is fine with that.

Players that struggle in groups do so because they haven't geared their characters or set up good builds. That is what it takes to prepare for group content. Doing solo content doesn't stop them from doing that.

The only thing I am promoting is for players to be able to enjoy the content they want without being told to do things the way someone else does or leave and go play single players games.

JustLovely · January 25

robwolf666 wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

I agree that end game content requires grouping. I don't agree that MMOs require all players to do group end game content.

The only thing in ESO that doesn't require grouping is overland questing. There is a lot of it, but it's not challenging in any way and doesn't prepare players for anything end game.

So if someone refuses to group they won't be able to compete at any level in ESO. So it's not toxic for groups to kick these players from group if they haven't put in any effort to learn mechanics or builds. Players who refuse to group don't have the right to claim to be victims of anything other than their own choices.

There’s plenty of “endgame” content in ESO that can be soloed, including a significant number of dungeons. I’ve personally soloed many of them — the only ones I haven’t are those with hard mechanical blockers that literally require more than one player (pressure plates, split levers, etc.).

As for “not putting in effort” — soloing content requires more effort, not less. My builds are made to survive, sustain, and adapt without a tank, healer, or safety net. That means understanding mechanics and class interactions, not just copying a meta build off YouTube and relying on group roles to cover mistakes.

And I don’t recall anyone here claiming to be a “victim.” What people are pushing back against is gatekeeping — especially at the mere suggestion of optional solo story modes for dungeons. Nobody is asking for group content to be removed or devalued, just for additional ways to experience it.

Choosing not to group doesn’t make someone lazy or unskilled. It just means they’re engaging with ESO differently — which the game has supported since launch.

It's not gatekeeping to demand that group members know mechanics and builds. Do the work and put in the effort and you'll be welcome in group. Kinda like in real life. There are no free carries.

I don’t disagree that a lot of work goes into meta builds — but that work is done by the person who originally theorycrafted and tested them. Copying a finished build isn’t the same thing as understanding one, and it certainly isn’t the same as designing a build that can function without a tank, healer, or group synergy to fall back on. Or does copy/paste count as "work" and "effort" now?

You made the point that grouping in MMO's is hugely important. You can't learn about builds and mechanics without grouping.

No I didn't.. lol. Or are you trying to say it's takes a group of people to be able to learn something in endgame? I learned to do my builds by myself, I didn't need help, or someone else to do it for me.

I'm saying it takes discussing builds and mechanics with those who know them to learn them yourself. The collective knowledge will always exceed an individuals knowledge. That's why we go to university to learn things rather than just read some self selected books.

JustLovely · January 25

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Shourrs wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

If you don't like grouping, MMO isn't the right game for you.

This is true not because you must group in MMOs but because there are many much better solo games...
You aren't pressured to join groups. You just won't be able to experience the whole game.

Not everyone wants to experience the whole game, and many don't but it's only the solo players that are being told this. No one tells the players that ONLY PvP that they are not experiencing the whole game. Or those that ONLY do end game and never experience the overland quests and story. It's only those that don't want to join formal groups and run end game content that are being singled nout.

Plus, as was touched on in this thread previously, there are many ways to interact with other player besides hard grouping and ESO provides that experience, so yes it is the right game for everyone to enjoy in their own way.

PvP is all PvE plus PvP. So the PvP players are already doing almost all if not all the solo content before they take part in PvP. Solo content being way too easy is why so many struggle when they try to run in groups or PvP. It takes a lot more awareness, time, experience and knowledge to take part in group activities like PvP and even more to PvP solo.

I would kindly ask you to stop promoting the extreme skill gap that creates so many problems in ESO.

There are PvPers that only PvP. And that is fine because they are playing how they want to play. The same with some end game players. And everyone is fine with that.

Players that struggle in groups do so because they haven't geared their characters or set up good builds. That is what it takes to prepare for group content. Doing solo content doesn't stop them from doing that.

The only thing I am promoting is for players to be able to enjoy the content they want without being told to do things the way someone else does or leave and go play single players games.

There aren't any PvP players that only PvP. They have to PvE to get the good gear for PvP. This is inherent in the games design and monetization model. ZOS puts the good PvP gear in hard PvE dungeons and trials. It's why perfected gear is stronger than normal gear. All PvP players are intimately familiar with this fact of life for playing ESO.

PvP is all PvE plus PvP.

SilverBride · January 25

JustLovely wrote: »

There aren't any PvP players that only PvP. They have to PvE to get the good gear for PvP. This is inherent in the games design and monetization model. ZOS puts the good PvP gear in hard PvE dungeons and trials. It's why perfected gear is stronger than normal gear. All PvP players are intimately familiar with this fact of life for playing ESO.

PvP is all PvE plus PvP.

I agree that PvE is needed if someone is preparing for PvP, but once the player is set up with the gear they need they can then just go enjoy the PvP they prepared for.

But my point with this thread is that those that don't do group end game are being told to leave and play single player games. Others may focus on just PvP or end game and not do overland questing, or housing, or crafting, or trading or any of the numerous other content this game provides, but no one tells them to leave.

JustLovely · January 25

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

There aren't any PvP players that only PvP. They have to PvE to get the good gear for PvP. This is inherent in the games design and monetization model. ZOS puts the good PvP gear in hard PvE dungeons and trials. It's why perfected gear is stronger than normal gear. All PvP players are intimately familiar with this fact of life for playing ESO.

PvP is all PvE plus PvP.

I agree that PvE is needed if someone is preparing for PvP, but once the player is set up with the gear they need they can then just go enjoy the PvP they prepared for.

But my point with this thread is that those that don't do group end game are being told to leave and play single player games. Others may focus on just PvP or end game and not do overland questing, or housing, or crafting, or trading or any of the numerous other content this game provides, but no one tells them to leave.

I know full well what the point of this thread is. My reading comprehension is better than most. We don't need you to tell us what this thread is about. We can all see it for ourselves.

JemadarofCaerSalis · January 25

JustLovely wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

I agree that end game content requires grouping. I don't agree that MMOs require all players to do group end game content.

The only thing in ESO that doesn't require grouping is overland questing. There is a lot of it, but it's not challenging in any way and doesn't prepare players for anything end game.

So if someone refuses to group they won't be able to compete at any level in ESO. So it's not toxic for groups to kick these players from group if they haven't put in any effort to learn mechanics or builds. Players who refuse to group don't have the right to claim to be victims of anything other than their own choices.

There’s plenty of “endgame” content in ESO that can be soloed, including a significant number of dungeons. I’ve personally soloed many of them — the only ones I haven’t are those with hard mechanical blockers that literally require more than one player (pressure plates, split levers, etc.).

As for “not putting in effort” — soloing content requires more effort, not less. My builds are made to survive, sustain, and adapt without a tank, healer, or safety net. That means understanding mechanics and class interactions, not just copying a meta build off YouTube and relying on group roles to cover mistakes.

And I don’t recall anyone here claiming to be a “victim.” What people are pushing back against is gatekeeping — especially at the mere suggestion of optional solo story modes for dungeons. Nobody is asking for group content to be removed or devalued, just for additional ways to experience it.

Choosing not to group doesn’t make someone lazy or unskilled. It just means they’re engaging with ESO differently — which the game has supported since launch.

It's not gatekeeping to demand that group members know mechanics and builds. Do the work and put in the effort and you'll be welcome in group. Kinda like in real life. There are no free carries.

I don’t disagree that a lot of work goes into meta builds — but that work is done by the person who originally theorycrafted and tested them. Copying a finished build isn’t the same thing as understanding one, and it certainly isn’t the same as designing a build that can function without a tank, healer, or group synergy to fall back on. Or does copy/paste count as "work" and "effort" now?

You made the point that grouping in MMO's is hugely important. You can't learn about builds and mechanics without grouping.

No I didn't.. lol. Or are you trying to say it's takes a group of people to be able to learn something in endgame? I learned to do my builds by myself, I didn't need help, or someone else to do it for me.

I'm saying it takes discussing builds and mechanics with those who know them to learn them yourself. The collective knowledge will always exceed an individuals knowledge. That's why we go to university to learn things rather than just read some self selected books.

Then how did the people who originally learn them actually learn them?

I mean, *someone* had to be the first to learn the mechanics and builds.

Even in the context of the universities, at some point, someone had to learn the knowledge first to be able to teach it to other people.

It is more *efficient* to have people who can guide you to the knowledge you need, but it isn't necessary. Especially in the days of the internet where people can google and find out things without needing to formally 'go to university' (ie group up).

People can trial and error into a good build if they want to. Most people don't want to, which is why they go with builds that are already tried and tested. They don't even technically need the internet, just trying out different sets and different builds and different attacks.

robwolf666 · January 25

JustLovely wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

I agree that end game content requires grouping. I don't agree that MMOs require all players to do group end game content.

The only thing in ESO that doesn't require grouping is overland questing. There is a lot of it, but it's not challenging in any way and doesn't prepare players for anything end game.

So if someone refuses to group they won't be able to compete at any level in ESO. So it's not toxic for groups to kick these players from group if they haven't put in any effort to learn mechanics or builds. Players who refuse to group don't have the right to claim to be victims of anything other than their own choices.

There’s plenty of “endgame” content in ESO that can be soloed, including a significant number of dungeons. I’ve personally soloed many of them — the only ones I haven’t are those with hard mechanical blockers that literally require more than one player (pressure plates, split levers, etc.).

As for “not putting in effort” — soloing content requires more effort, not less. My builds are made to survive, sustain, and adapt without a tank, healer, or safety net. That means understanding mechanics and class interactions, not just copying a meta build off YouTube and relying on group roles to cover mistakes.

And I don’t recall anyone here claiming to be a “victim.” What people are pushing back against is gatekeeping — especially at the mere suggestion of optional solo story modes for dungeons. Nobody is asking for group content to be removed or devalued, just for additional ways to experience it.

Choosing not to group doesn’t make someone lazy or unskilled. It just means they’re engaging with ESO differently — which the game has supported since launch.

It's not gatekeeping to demand that group members know mechanics and builds. Do the work and put in the effort and you'll be welcome in group. Kinda like in real life. There are no free carries.

I don’t disagree that a lot of work goes into meta builds — but that work is done by the person who originally theorycrafted and tested them. Copying a finished build isn’t the same thing as understanding one, and it certainly isn’t the same as designing a build that can function without a tank, healer, or group synergy to fall back on. Or does copy/paste count as "work" and "effort" now?

You made the point that grouping in MMO's is hugely important. You can't learn about builds and mechanics without grouping.

No I didn't.. lol. Or are you trying to say it's takes a group of people to be able to learn something in endgame? I learned to do my builds by myself, I didn't need help, or someone else to do it for me.

I'm saying it takes discussing builds and mechanics with those who know them to learn them yourself. The collective knowledge will always exceed an individuals knowledge. That's why we go to university to learn things rather than just read some self selected books.

Yes... that's what you're saying, but it's not what I said. I said it's possible to do you're own builds by yourself - and copy/pasting a meta build someone else made is not making you're own build or understanding it.

Maybe I should try saying it in another language? (Translation not 100% accurate obviously)

Zu’u ni koor lot zeymahzin do meta.
Fah zeymahzin wahlaan los do fahdon ahrk kril mindok.
Kopahnd ni los mindok.
Wahlaan zey ahrk zeymahzin ni bo jun, rok, sahsun—
nu los sahrot zeymahzin.
Kopahnd‑wah‑kopahnd los nid zeymahzin.

Paramedicus · 12:33AM

SilverBride wrote: »

There are PvPers that only PvP. And that is fine because they are playing how they want to play.

Do you think they should ask ZOS to enable PvP in the Overland?

SilverBride · 12:51AM

Paramedicus wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There are PvPers that only PvP. And that is fine because they are playing how they want to play.

Do you think they should ask ZOS to enable PvP in the Overland?

That is a completely different topic that has no bearing on this discussion.

JustLovely · 1:01AM

SilverBride wrote: »

Paramedicus wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There are PvPers that only PvP. And that is fine because they are playing how they want to play.

Do you think they should ask ZOS to enable PvP in the Overland?

That is a completely different topic that has no bearing on this discussion.

I think it has as much bearing as the OP.

You don't get to decide what people post unless you're a moderator or your name is Teri.

JustLovely · 1:03AM

robwolf666 wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

robwolf666 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

I agree that end game content requires grouping. I don't agree that MMOs require all players to do group end game content.

The only thing in ESO that doesn't require grouping is overland questing. There is a lot of it, but it's not challenging in any way and doesn't prepare players for anything end game.

So if someone refuses to group they won't be able to compete at any level in ESO. So it's not toxic for groups to kick these players from group if they haven't put in any effort to learn mechanics or builds. Players who refuse to group don't have the right to claim to be victims of anything other than their own choices.

There’s plenty of “endgame” content in ESO that can be soloed, including a significant number of dungeons. I’ve personally soloed many of them — the only ones I haven’t are those with hard mechanical blockers that literally require more than one player (pressure plates, split levers, etc.).

As for “not putting in effort” — soloing content requires more effort, not less. My builds are made to survive, sustain, and adapt without a tank, healer, or safety net. That means understanding mechanics and class interactions, not just copying a meta build off YouTube and relying on group roles to cover mistakes.

And I don’t recall anyone here claiming to be a “victim.” What people are pushing back against is gatekeeping — especially at the mere suggestion of optional solo story modes for dungeons. Nobody is asking for group content to be removed or devalued, just for additional ways to experience it.

Choosing not to group doesn’t make someone lazy or unskilled. It just means they’re engaging with ESO differently — which the game has supported since launch.

It's not gatekeeping to demand that group members know mechanics and builds. Do the work and put in the effort and you'll be welcome in group. Kinda like in real life. There are no free carries.

I don’t disagree that a lot of work goes into meta builds — but that work is done by the person who originally theorycrafted and tested them. Copying a finished build isn’t the same thing as understanding one, and it certainly isn’t the same as designing a build that can function without a tank, healer, or group synergy to fall back on. Or does copy/paste count as "work" and "effort" now?

You made the point that grouping in MMO's is hugely important. You can't learn about builds and mechanics without grouping.

No I didn't.. lol. Or are you trying to say it's takes a group of people to be able to learn something in endgame? I learned to do my builds by myself, I didn't need help, or someone else to do it for me.

I'm saying it takes discussing builds and mechanics with those who know them to learn them yourself. The collective knowledge will always exceed an individuals knowledge. That's why we go to university to learn things rather than just read some self selected books.

Yes... that's what you're saying, but it's not what I said. I said it's possible to do you're own builds by yourself - and copy/pasting a meta build someone else made is not making you're own build or understanding it.

Maybe I should try saying it in another language? (Translation not 100% accurate obviously)

Zu’u ni koor lot zeymahzin do meta.
Fah zeymahzin wahlaan los do fahdon ahrk kril mindok.
Kopahnd ni los mindok.
Wahlaan zey ahrk zeymahzin ni bo jun, rok, sahsun—
nu los sahrot zeymahzin.
Kopahnd‑wah‑kopahnd los nid zeymahzin.

Interesting you chose Dovahzul to mischaracterize my post.

Yes, someone who doesn't already have a strong understanding of builds and mechanics will be able to figure new mechanics and builds from scratch, eventually, probably. But as science works, everything someone does today is built upon what someone else did yesterday.

Warhawke_80 · 1:17AM

All this petty Bickering....

Look what Zenimax is aiming for is a compromise. You can solo ,or you can have set to nightmare mode...whatever you choose...there is no correct way to play and what mode you play on will have nothing to do with your reward structure.

So we all win.