MMO does NOT mean Grouping

SilverBride · January 23

ToddIngram wrote: »

The game is dying because ZOS caters almost exclusively to the solo player population. End game PvE died with U35 and PvP has been neglected for so long ZOS is now presenting the excuse that it's so messed up they're not even going to try and fix it.

When the most catered to people around complain that they're not catered to enough, that's a problem for everyone and is unsustainable.

This thread isn't about that at all. No one is asking to be catered to. We are only asking to not be told that if we don't group for dungeons and trials etc. that this isn't the game for us and we should just play single player games instead.

If end game PvE is having problems that is an issue that needs addressed. But it is not the fault of players that don't enjoy that content.

Soarora · January 23

ToddIngram wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MMO only means there are multiple players in the game world at the same time. It does NOT mean that we have to group with them. Yet we frequently hear things like:
"It's an MMO and that means grouping."

"If you don't want to group maybe an MMO isn't the right game for you."

"If players only do solo content it makes it harder for others to find groups."

None of those are true. The game world is like real life in that each player can go about their day doing the things that they enjoy. And they should not be pressured or judged because of how they choose to spend their time.

Except all of those statements are true.

Solo players are not victims. They are the most catered to subset of the player base. The self entitlement is unwarranted and ugly.

Except they aren't true.

MMO means Massively Multiplayer. Massively multiplayer means lots of players all playing in the same world together. It doesn't mean they have to group up to play, just that there are a LOT of players.

So, that automatically makes the second statement false, because Massively Multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, so therefore MMOs can be the right games for players that want to play solo, but with other players in the game to make the world feel alive. Or players who want to group occasionally but don't want to be forced to group up with others.

While the third statement might be true, the fact is that forcing players to group is only going to create a vastly toxic community, because the players that are forced to group are not going to like being there, and they are often going to resent being forced to group. So, you get players who only want X reward from the dungeon and so don't want to do anything but whatever is required to get that reward. you get players who want to do Y, who are now at odds with the people who want X, because Y means doing something different from what is required to get X. You get players who don't care they just want the final reward as quick as possible, and resent anyone who slows them down even slightly. You get players who want to do all the dungeon content, and are content to take their time, and they resent that they are being dragged along by the players who just want to take the fastest way to get the rewards.

All these people are being grouped together, so now you get people who just quit the game or just quit doing that content, which just leads to fewer people to group with.

Do you *really* think that ESO, if all the solo only players left, would be able to survive? If the players who prefer solo, but don't necessarily mind grouping, but don't want to be forced to group left?

The game is dying because ZOS caters almost exclusively to the solo player population. End game PvE died with U35 and PvP has been neglected for so long ZOS is now presenting the excuse that it's so messed up they're not even going to try and fix it.

When the most catered to people around complain that they're not catered to enough, that's a problem for everyone and is proving to be unsustainable. MMO's die when there is no focus on end game group activities.

There's a new trial every year, black gem hm was beautifully crafted mechanically, Night Market has HM mechanics and is scaled for groups, the keep entry exploits and cross healing in pvp are getting addressed... look around. As of late, I've felt more seen than ever before as an endgame dungeon player.

ToddIngram · January 23

SilverBride wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

The game is dying because ZOS caters almost exclusively to the solo player population. End game PvE died with U35 and PvP has been neglected for so long ZOS is now presenting the excuse that it's so messed up they're not even going to try and fix it.

When the most catered to people around complain that they're not catered to enough, that's a problem for everyone and is unsustainable.

This thread isn't about that at all. No one is asking to be catered to. We are only asking to not be told that if we don't group for dungeons and trials etc. that this isn't the game for us and we should just play single player games instead.

If end game PvE is having problems that is an issue that needs addressed. But it is not the fault of players that don't enjoy that content.

I know what this thread is about, and it's not what you're claiming.

SilverBride · January 23

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

I also like the idea of “soft grouping” like when we work on a boss together or world event without having to be formally grouped.

The daily quest aspect sounds nice. I like doing dailies with other people in a casual way.

I’ve even shared daily quests with some folks here who asked for them in zone. 😋

I remember that too. There were some friendly pleasant exchanges of daily Solstice quests when I was farming for a lead for the crab music box. It was nice.

AScarlato · January 23

ToddIngram wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MMO only means there are multiple players in the game world at the same time. It does NOT mean that we have to group with them. Yet we frequently hear things like:
"It's an MMO and that means grouping."

"If you don't want to group maybe an MMO isn't the right game for you."

"If players only do solo content it makes it harder for others to find groups."

None of those are true. The game world is like real life in that each player can go about their day doing the things that they enjoy. And they should not be pressured or judged because of how they choose to spend their time.

Except all of those statements are true.

Solo players are not victims. They are the most catered to subset of the player base. The self entitlement is unwarranted and ugly.

Except they aren't true.

MMO means Massively Multiplayer. Massively multiplayer means lots of players all playing in the same world together. It doesn't mean they have to group up to play, just that there are a LOT of players.

So, that automatically makes the second statement false, because Massively Multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, so therefore MMOs can be the right games for players that want to play solo, but with other players in the game to make the world feel alive. Or players who want to group occasionally but don't want to be forced to group up with others.

While the third statement might be true, the fact is that forcing players to group is only going to create a vastly toxic community, because the players that are forced to group are not going to like being there, and they are often going to resent being forced to group. So, you get players who only want X reward from the dungeon and so don't want to do anything but whatever is required to get that reward. you get players who want to do Y, who are now at odds with the people who want X, because Y means doing something different from what is required to get X. You get players who don't care they just want the final reward as quick as possible, and resent anyone who slows them down even slightly. You get players who want to do all the dungeon content, and are content to take their time, and they resent that they are being dragged along by the players who just want to take the fastest way to get the rewards.

All these people are being grouped together, so now you get people who just quit the game or just quit doing that content, which just leads to fewer people to group with.

Do you *really* think that ESO, if all the solo only players left, would be able to survive? If the players who prefer solo, but don't necessarily mind grouping, but don't want to be forced to group left?

The game is dying because ZOS caters almost exclusively to the solo player population. End game PvE died with U35 and PvP has been neglected for so long ZOS is now presenting the excuse that it's so messed up they're not even going to try and fix it.

When the most catered to people around complain that they're not catered to enough, that's a problem for everyone and is proving to be unsustainable. MMO's die when there is no focus on end game group activities.

First, many people that enjoy group challenges also engage in solo content depending on their moods. If I were to take my bet such content is more accessible and engaged in than end-game PVE in most MMOs.

The game is dying because they are offering less content in general and it has trended towards less and less every year for several years now. It is dying because the quality of writing has decreased so that turns off people who return for stories and then leave again. True they cut the number of dungeons in half, and now there are none. But there are also no new chapter zones and stories for solo-oriented players. RIght now the only new thing this season is a zone you pretty much have to group for, so I have no idea how you can say they cater only to solo players.

The game has lots of problems - I just deleted some paragraphs because at the end of the day dwindling content is most to blame, not some civil war between what is left of the playerbase.

As an aside, for me personally I do a lot of group content and raids in FFXIV because that game has vertical progression but ESO is mostly horizontal. I lost interest in group content in ESO years ago. I stopped gathering most new sets because every time I had maxed them out in the past they would nerf them sometimes right after I was done upgrading them, so now I use sets that are "good enough" and I have little to nothing I want, and certainly nothing I need, in 90% of the dungeons they release. So maybe at some point if there isn't really compelling reasons at some point for a lot of players to keep repeating dungeons.

tomofhyrule · January 23

AScarlato wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MMO only means there are multiple players in the game world at the same time. It does NOT mean that we have to group with them. Yet we frequently hear things like:
"It's an MMO and that means grouping."

"If you don't want to group maybe an MMO isn't the right game for you."

"If players only do solo content it makes it harder for others to find groups."

None of those are true. The game world is like real life in that each player can go about their day doing the things that they enjoy. And they should not be pressured or judged because of how they choose to spend their time.

Except all of those statements are true.

Solo players are not victims. They are the most catered to subset of the player base. The self entitlement is unwarranted and ugly.

Except they aren't true.

MMO means Massively Multiplayer. Massively multiplayer means lots of players all playing in the same world together. It doesn't mean they have to group up to play, just that there are a LOT of players.

So, that automatically makes the second statement false, because Massively Multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, so therefore MMOs can be the right games for players that want to play solo, but with other players in the game to make the world feel alive. Or players who want to group occasionally but don't want to be forced to group up with others.

While the third statement might be true, the fact is that forcing players to group is only going to create a vastly toxic community, because the players that are forced to group are not going to like being there, and they are often going to resent being forced to group. So, you get players who only want X reward from the dungeon and so don't want to do anything but whatever is required to get that reward. you get players who want to do Y, who are now at odds with the people who want X, because Y means doing something different from what is required to get X. You get players who don't care they just want the final reward as quick as possible, and resent anyone who slows them down even slightly. You get players who want to do all the dungeon content, and are content to take their time, and they resent that they are being dragged along by the players who just want to take the fastest way to get the rewards.

All these people are being grouped together, so now you get people who just quit the game or just quit doing that content, which just leads to fewer people to group with.

Do you *really* think that ESO, if all the solo only players left, would be able to survive? If the players who prefer solo, but don't necessarily mind grouping, but don't want to be forced to group left?

The game is dying because ZOS caters almost exclusively to the solo player population. End game PvE died with U35 and PvP has been neglected for so long ZOS is now presenting the excuse that it's so messed up they're not even going to try and fix it.

When the most catered to people around complain that they're not catered to enough, that's a problem for everyone and is proving to be unsustainable. MMO's die when there is no focus on end game group activities.

. True they cut the number of dungeons in half, and now there are none. But there are also no new chapter zones and stories for solo-oriented players. RIght now the only new thing this season is a zone you pretty much have to group for, so I have no idea how you can say they cater only to solo players.

Don’t forget that in U50 (which will still be Season 0), we are also getting a solo storyline for the Thieves Guild and another solo storyline for Sheogorath. Both are set in existing zones, but there will be a new series of quests.

AScarlato · January 23

tomofhyrule wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MMO only means there are multiple players in the game world at the same time. It does NOT mean that we have to group with them. Yet we frequently hear things like:
"It's an MMO and that means grouping."

"If you don't want to group maybe an MMO isn't the right game for you."

"If players only do solo content it makes it harder for others to find groups."

None of those are true. The game world is like real life in that each player can go about their day doing the things that they enjoy. And they should not be pressured or judged because of how they choose to spend their time.

Except all of those statements are true.

Solo players are not victims. They are the most catered to subset of the player base. The self entitlement is unwarranted and ugly.

Except they aren't true.

MMO means Massively Multiplayer. Massively multiplayer means lots of players all playing in the same world together. It doesn't mean they have to group up to play, just that there are a LOT of players.

So, that automatically makes the second statement false, because Massively Multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, so therefore MMOs can be the right games for players that want to play solo, but with other players in the game to make the world feel alive. Or players who want to group occasionally but don't want to be forced to group up with others.

While the third statement might be true, the fact is that forcing players to group is only going to create a vastly toxic community, because the players that are forced to group are not going to like being there, and they are often going to resent being forced to group. So, you get players who only want X reward from the dungeon and so don't want to do anything but whatever is required to get that reward. you get players who want to do Y, who are now at odds with the people who want X, because Y means doing something different from what is required to get X. You get players who don't care they just want the final reward as quick as possible, and resent anyone who slows them down even slightly. You get players who want to do all the dungeon content, and are content to take their time, and they resent that they are being dragged along by the players who just want to take the fastest way to get the rewards.

All these people are being grouped together, so now you get people who just quit the game or just quit doing that content, which just leads to fewer people to group with.

Do you *really* think that ESO, if all the solo only players left, would be able to survive? If the players who prefer solo, but don't necessarily mind grouping, but don't want to be forced to group left?

The game is dying because ZOS caters almost exclusively to the solo player population. End game PvE died with U35 and PvP has been neglected for so long ZOS is now presenting the excuse that it's so messed up they're not even going to try and fix it.

When the most catered to people around complain that they're not catered to enough, that's a problem for everyone and is proving to be unsustainable. MMO's die when there is no focus on end game group activities.

. True they cut the number of dungeons in half, and now there are none. But there are also no new chapter zones and stories for solo-oriented players. RIght now the only new thing this season is a zone you pretty much have to group for, so I have no idea how you can say they cater only to solo players.

Don’t forget that in U50 (which will still be Season 0), we are also getting a solo storyline for the Thieves Guild and another solo storyline for Sheogorath. Both are set in existing zones, but there will be a new series of quests.

Well I stand corrected. I thought that was another Season and not S0. Anyway, I guess then both playstyles will get a little something - but we will see how compelling the quests are. I can see a 6 week group zone being viewed as not very compelling either since it will vanish at some point.

I guess they didn't advertise any quests either since the article states:

So they list that as "future season" not Season 0, and their list specifically for Season 0 did not include them.

SummersetCitizen · January 23

SilverBride wrote: »

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

I also like the idea of “soft grouping” like when we work on a boss together or world event without having to be formally grouped.

The daily quest aspect sounds nice. I like doing dailies with other people in a casual way.

I’ve even shared daily quests with some folks here who asked for them in zone. 😋

I remember that too. There were some friendly pleasant exchanges of daily Solstice quests when I was farming for a lead for the crab music box. It was nice.

That was our version of “grouping” in the moment. Not for a dungeon or trial, but still not totally solo. 👍🏻🙂

It is the kind of “grouping” I do the most of these days. Politely helping others or asking for help when needed.

SilverBride · January 23

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

I also like the idea of “soft grouping” like when we work on a boss together or world event without having to be formally grouped.

The daily quest aspect sounds nice. I like doing dailies with other people in a casual way.

I’ve even shared daily quests with some folks here who asked for them in zone. 😋

I remember that too. There were some friendly pleasant exchanges of daily Solstice quests when I was farming for a lead for the crab music box. It was nice.

That was our version of “grouping” in the moment. Not for a dungeon or trial, but still not totally solo. 👍🏻🙂

It is the kind of “grouping” I do the most of these days. Politely helping others or asking for help when needed.

I'm glad we were able to share a pleasant experience that way!

ZOS_Icy · January 23

Greetings,

We have removed some insulting back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team

JemadarofCaerSalis · January 23

AScarlato wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MMO only means there are multiple players in the game world at the same time. It does NOT mean that we have to group with them. Yet we frequently hear things like:
"It's an MMO and that means grouping."

"If you don't want to group maybe an MMO isn't the right game for you."

"If players only do solo content it makes it harder for others to find groups."

None of those are true. The game world is like real life in that each player can go about their day doing the things that they enjoy. And they should not be pressured or judged because of how they choose to spend their time.

Except all of those statements are true.

Solo players are not victims. They are the most catered to subset of the player base. The self entitlement is unwarranted and ugly.

Except they aren't true.

MMO means Massively Multiplayer. Massively multiplayer means lots of players all playing in the same world together. It doesn't mean they have to group up to play, just that there are a LOT of players.

So, that automatically makes the second statement false, because Massively Multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, so therefore MMOs can be the right games for players that want to play solo, but with other players in the game to make the world feel alive. Or players who want to group occasionally but don't want to be forced to group up with others.

While the third statement might be true, the fact is that forcing players to group is only going to create a vastly toxic community, because the players that are forced to group are not going to like being there, and they are often going to resent being forced to group. So, you get players who only want X reward from the dungeon and so don't want to do anything but whatever is required to get that reward. you get players who want to do Y, who are now at odds with the people who want X, because Y means doing something different from what is required to get X. You get players who don't care they just want the final reward as quick as possible, and resent anyone who slows them down even slightly. You get players who want to do all the dungeon content, and are content to take their time, and they resent that they are being dragged along by the players who just want to take the fastest way to get the rewards.

All these people are being grouped together, so now you get people who just quit the game or just quit doing that content, which just leads to fewer people to group with.

Do you *really* think that ESO, if all the solo only players left, would be able to survive? If the players who prefer solo, but don't necessarily mind grouping, but don't want to be forced to group left?

The game is dying because ZOS caters almost exclusively to the solo player population. End game PvE died with U35 and PvP has been neglected for so long ZOS is now presenting the excuse that it's so messed up they're not even going to try and fix it.

When the most catered to people around complain that they're not catered to enough, that's a problem for everyone and is proving to be unsustainable. MMO's die when there is no focus on end game group activities.

First, many people that enjoy group challenges also engage in solo content depending on their moods. If I were to take my bet such content is more accessible and engaged in than end-game PVE in most MMOs.

The game is dying because they are offering less content in general and it has trended towards less and less every year for several years now. It is dying because the quality of writing has decreased so that turns off people who return for stories and then leave again. True they cut the number of dungeons in half, and now there are none. But there are also no new chapter zones and stories for solo-oriented players. RIght now the only new thing this season is a zone you pretty much have to group for, so I have no idea how you can say they cater only to solo players.

The game has lots of problems - I just deleted some paragraphs because at the end of the day dwindling content is most to blame, not some civil war between what is left of the playerbase.

As an aside, for me personally I do a lot of group content and raids in FFXIV because that game has vertical progression but ESO is mostly horizontal. I lost interest in group content in ESO years ago. I stopped gathering most new sets because every time I had maxed them out in the past they would nerf them sometimes right after I was done upgrading them, so now I use sets that are "good enough" and I have little to nothing I want, and certainly nothing I need, in 90% of the dungeons they release. So maybe at some point if there isn't really compelling reasons at some point for a lot of players to keep repeating dungeons.

I was thinking this.

Also, want to point out how ESO+ is starting to feel a bit light for the price.

I have been a subscriber since shortly after I joined, because it meant I got the content to play plus some perks. It was worth it.

But, now new content is being added in other ways and while I have no issues with things being added to base game for free, even when they do 'premium content' it seems as if ESO+ is being left out or given an after thought. So, I am planning on not renewing my ESO+ this year. Because it seems I am getting less for the same price, and it isn't for me anymore.

So, yeah, I completely agree that the problem isn't casual players wanting content catered to them (and most of the time, I don't see solo players wanting content catered to them, just wanting to be ABLE to do the content, even if it is geared towards needing a group. So, basically no group only mechanics such as needing two or more people to stand in specific places to open a door), but rather that it seems like ESOs content is getting lighter, and sparser, and the solution to the problem that they tend to use is to nerf things instead of actually thinking about how to truly fix them.

The problem also isn't end game players wanting more end game content. Just want to point that out.

SummersetCitizen · January 23

AScarlato wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MMO only means there are multiple players in the game world at the same time. It does NOT mean that we have to group with them. Yet we frequently hear things like:
"It's an MMO and that means grouping."

"If you don't want to group maybe an MMO isn't the right game for you."

"If players only do solo content it makes it harder for others to find groups."

None of those are true. The game world is like real life in that each player can go about their day doing the things that they enjoy. And they should not be pressured or judged because of how they choose to spend their time.

Except all of those statements are true.

Solo players are not victims. They are the most catered to subset of the player base. The self entitlement is unwarranted and ugly.

Except they aren't true.

MMO means Massively Multiplayer. Massively multiplayer means lots of players all playing in the same world together. It doesn't mean they have to group up to play, just that there are a LOT of players.

So, that automatically makes the second statement false, because Massively Multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, so therefore MMOs can be the right games for players that want to play solo, but with other players in the game to make the world feel alive. Or players who want to group occasionally but don't want to be forced to group up with others.

While the third statement might be true, the fact is that forcing players to group is only going to create a vastly toxic community, because the players that are forced to group are not going to like being there, and they are often going to resent being forced to group. So, you get players who only want X reward from the dungeon and so don't want to do anything but whatever is required to get that reward. you get players who want to do Y, who are now at odds with the people who want X, because Y means doing something different from what is required to get X. You get players who don't care they just want the final reward as quick as possible, and resent anyone who slows them down even slightly. You get players who want to do all the dungeon content, and are content to take their time, and they resent that they are being dragged along by the players who just want to take the fastest way to get the rewards.

All these people are being grouped together, so now you get people who just quit the game or just quit doing that content, which just leads to fewer people to group with.

Do you *really* think that ESO, if all the solo only players left, would be able to survive? If the players who prefer solo, but don't necessarily mind grouping, but don't want to be forced to group left?

The game is dying because ZOS caters almost exclusively to the solo player population. End game PvE died with U35 and PvP has been neglected for so long ZOS is now presenting the excuse that it's so messed up they're not even going to try and fix it.

When the most catered to people around complain that they're not catered to enough, that's a problem for everyone and is proving to be unsustainable. MMO's die when there is no focus on end game group activities.

So, yeah, I completely agree that the problem isn't casual players wanting content catered to them…
The problem also isn't end game players wanting more end game content. Just want to point that out.

It’s a time of uncertainty. Everyone (regardless of play style) feels like they’re getting less… and everyone is probably right.

Let’s not focus our frustrations on each other. We are all entitled to request the content we enjoy the most.

Ultimately ZOS will decide what content makes the cut, likely based on profitability more than anything.

El_Borracho · January 23

@frogthroat I totally agree with you on all of those points. Some players love the hyper-optimized groups and love score-pushing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Heck, there are guilds dedicated to it. The problem only arises in the situation where those groups run a pug and someone who does not share their mindset somehow joins.

This typically comes to a head during an event where there are double-drops in a trial. This is also where you will find the 1-2 players who join a pug and want to run it like a hyper-optimized group. In either situation, nobody is happy because these two playstyles can not coexist. There is nothing that can be done to make them coexist. Fortunately, the group finder has alleviated a lot of these clashes. But beyond that, I don't believe the game can or should change to fix this issue because its not fixable beyond what has been done.

As for dungeon soloists, they are not a problem for anyone. I understand there are some that contain PVP gear, which has never made sense to me, but running them on normal is not that hard if you are farming. At the same time, making a solo mode doesn't hurt group players, so I really don't care. But I don't see the game making that an option any time soon.

SaffronCitrusflower · January 24

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

SilverBride · January 24

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

I agree that end game content requires grouping. I don't agree that MMOs require all players to do group end game content.

SaffronCitrusflower · January 24

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

I agree that end game content requires grouping. I don't agree that MMOs require all players to do group end game content.

The only thing in ESO that doesn't require grouping is overland questing. There is a lot of it, but it's not challenging in any way and doesn't prepare players for anything end game.

So if someone refuses to group they won't be able to compete at any level in ESO. So it's not toxic for groups to kick these players from group if they haven't put in any effort to learn mechanics or builds. Players who refuse to group don't have the right to claim to be victims of anything other than their own choices.

Soarora · January 24

.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

I agree that end game content requires grouping. I don't agree that MMOs require all players to do group end game content.

The only thing in ESO that doesn't require grouping is overland questing. There is a lot of it, but it's not challenging in any way and doesn't prepare players for anything end game.

Soloing dungeons, IA, dueling, imperial city, Vateshran & Maelstrom Arena?

Warhawke_80 · January 24

.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

There are like Ten MMO's that have a solo end game Including SWTOR, FFXIV WoW, RIFT, Blade And Soul etc and keep in mind we are dealing with hour long wait times on pugs sometimes...so the so called group game is dead anyways

SilverBride · January 24

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

I agree that end game content requires grouping. I don't agree that MMOs require all players to do group end game content.

The only thing in ESO that doesn't require grouping is overland questing. There is a lot of it, but it's not challenging in any way and doesn't prepare players for anything end game.

So if someone refuses to group they won't be able to compete at any level in ESO. So it's not toxic for groups to kick these players from group if they haven't put in any effort to learn mechanics or builds. Players who refuse to group don't have the right to claim to be victims of anything other than their own choices.

I never said anything about end game groups kicking players that weren't pulling their weight. I said all players aren't required to do end game group content.

robwolf666 · January 24

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

I agree that end game content requires grouping. I don't agree that MMOs require all players to do group end game content.

The only thing in ESO that doesn't require grouping is overland questing. There is a lot of it, but it's not challenging in any way and doesn't prepare players for anything end game.

So if someone refuses to group they won't be able to compete at any level in ESO. So it's not toxic for groups to kick these players from group if they haven't put in any effort to learn mechanics or builds. Players who refuse to group don't have the right to claim to be victims of anything other than their own choices.

There’s plenty of “endgame” content in ESO that can be soloed, including a significant number of dungeons. I’ve personally soloed many of them — the only ones I haven’t are those with hard mechanical blockers that literally require more than one player (pressure plates, split levers, etc.).

As for “not putting in effort” — soloing content requires more effort, not less. My builds are made to survive, sustain, and adapt without a tank, healer, or safety net. That means understanding mechanics and class interactions, not just copying a meta build off YouTube and relying on group roles to cover mistakes.

And I don’t recall anyone here claiming to be a “victim.” What people are pushing back against is gatekeeping — especially at the mere suggestion of optional solo story modes for dungeons. Nobody is asking for group content to be removed or devalued, just for additional ways to experience it.

Choosing not to group doesn’t make someone lazy or unskilled. It just means they’re engaging with ESO differently — which the game has supported since launch.

Cooperharley · January 24

ToddIngram wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

This thread is not about solo players being unhappy with what ZOS gives them but about solo players being annoyed by players like you asking to take that content away and telling them that ESO is only for groups and they should leave when they dont play in one.

This thread is reaction and spin-off of the „solo dungeons kill the MMORPG“ thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/687276/solo-dungeons-will-kill-the-mmo where group players were lobbying to not release the solo dungeons ZOS has already announced and probably started to build.

Group players are lobbying and making threads to prevent new solo content and make existent soloable content group exclusive all the time.

The narrative of ZOS catering to solo players group players constantly repeat is nonsense. ZOS has given groups 4 Dungeons and a Trial every Year and soloplayers 2 zones except 2023 and 2024 where they cut both the second zone and the second dungeon dlc.
2023 they instead made bastion nymic a group instance instead of an open world event.
2025 second zone was just second half of first zone.
Dolmens, most basegame worldbosses and vet dungeons are soloable but very few dlc world bosses/events are and vet dlc dungeons usually require premade.
PvP was fun for solo, pug or zergsurf players but now only premades have a chance and fun.
ZOS didnt cater to solo players, it just made group content and PvP less available and fun.

This post perfectly describes what this thread is about and what prompted me to start it. Players being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content happens way too often.

Now it is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claim that MMO means grouping.

Solo players belong here, too.

No it doesn't. This is a thread where solo players are expressing their expectation ESO should be something other than what it was created to be.

And the backslapping "liking" of each other going on in this thread is noteworthy. If there is conflict between skilled and unskilled players in ESO it's because of threads like this one.

Where is it written that ESO was created only for group end game players? And this discussion isn't about skills. It's about players being berated for having a solo playstyle and having others try to stop the solo dungeons that are planned.

Feeling berated is not the same as actually being berated. Even worse, faking having been being berated just to create drama is a whole other problem.

SilverBride wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Players are frequently being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content. Now this is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claims that MMO means grouping, and that solo posters are trying to change the game from it's intended purpose, and it will make it harder for them to find groups to play their preferred way.

These comments are bad enough, but having an option we are looking forward to being lobbied against in an attempt to have it stopped is just too much.

Will you please clarify if grouping for end game content is expected , or is just one of many content options?

This is a well established pattern of behavior for some. Why the moderators promote it is disheartening in the extreme.

Some people will always claim grievances. And if they don't exist IRL, they will invent them.

Yea. Generally the same 3-5 people pointing fingers at each other and making generalizing statements

frogthroat · January 24

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

So if someone refuses to group they won't be able to compete at any level in ESO. So it's not toxic for groups to kick these players from group if they haven't put in any effort to learn mechanics or builds.

Others already answered about end game soloing, but this part confuses me a bit. What do you mean by this?

How do you kick someone from the group if they refuse to group in the first place? Somehow force or trick them into accepting group invite just so you can kick them? Or how does it work?

SaffronCitrusflower · January 24

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

There are like Ten MMO's that have a solo end game Including SWTOR, FFXIV WoW, RIFT, Blade And Soul etc and keep in mind we are dealing with hour long wait times on pugs sometimes...so the so called group game is dead anyways

No. No there are not ten MMO's that have solo end game content in any quantity. The only solo end game content in ESO is vet Vatershrans and vet Maelstrom arena's, and that's about how it is in other MMO's as well. There is essentially no end game content for solo players in MMO's by design.

So no, your claim is patently false. And if the group game dies it will be because the solo's demanded it. ESO is on it's way there, but not quite all the way just yet. So please just stop demanding that ESO be something it was never intended to be.

SaffronCitrusflower · January 24

robwolf666 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

I've never seen or heard of an MMO that didn't require grouping for end game content.

So yes, MMO does in fact mean grouping will be required if you want to run anything other than the most basic content.

I agree that end game content requires grouping. I don't agree that MMOs require all players to do group end game content.

The only thing in ESO that doesn't require grouping is overland questing. There is a lot of it, but it's not challenging in any way and doesn't prepare players for anything end game.

So if someone refuses to group they won't be able to compete at any level in ESO. So it's not toxic for groups to kick these players from group if they haven't put in any effort to learn mechanics or builds. Players who refuse to group don't have the right to claim to be victims of anything other than their own choices.

There’s plenty of “endgame” content in ESO that can be soloed, including a significant number of dungeons. I’ve personally soloed many of them — the only ones I haven’t are those with hard mechanical blockers that literally require more than one player (pressure plates, split levers, etc.).

As for “not putting in effort” — soloing content requires more effort, not less. My builds are made to survive, sustain, and adapt without a tank, healer, or safety net. That means understanding mechanics and class interactions, not just copying a meta build off YouTube and relying on group roles to cover mistakes.

And I don’t recall anyone here claiming to be a “victim.” What people are pushing back against is gatekeeping — especially at the mere suggestion of optional solo story modes for dungeons. Nobody is asking for group content to be removed or devalued, just for additional ways to experience it.

Choosing not to group doesn’t make someone lazy or unskilled. It just means they’re engaging with ESO differently — which the game has supported since launch.

It's not gatekeeping to demand that group members know mechanics and builds. Do the work and put in the effort and you'll be welcome in group. Kinda like in real life. There are no free carries.

SaffronCitrusflower · January 24

Cooperharley wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

This thread is not about solo players being unhappy with what ZOS gives them but about solo players being annoyed by players like you asking to take that content away and telling them that ESO is only for groups and they should leave when they dont play in one.

This thread is reaction and spin-off of the „solo dungeons kill the MMORPG“ thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/687276/solo-dungeons-will-kill-the-mmo where group players were lobbying to not release the solo dungeons ZOS has already announced and probably started to build.

Group players are lobbying and making threads to prevent new solo content and make existent soloable content group exclusive all the time.

The narrative of ZOS catering to solo players group players constantly repeat is nonsense. ZOS has given groups 4 Dungeons and a Trial every Year and soloplayers 2 zones except 2023 and 2024 where they cut both the second zone and the second dungeon dlc.
2023 they instead made bastion nymic a group instance instead of an open world event.
2025 second zone was just second half of first zone.
Dolmens, most basegame worldbosses and vet dungeons are soloable but very few dlc world bosses/events are and vet dlc dungeons usually require premade.
PvP was fun for solo, pug or zergsurf players but now only premades have a chance and fun.
ZOS didnt cater to solo players, it just made group content and PvP less available and fun.

This post perfectly describes what this thread is about and what prompted me to start it. Players being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content happens way too often.

Now it is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claim that MMO means grouping.

Solo players belong here, too.

No it doesn't. This is a thread where solo players are expressing their expectation ESO should be something other than what it was created to be.

And the backslapping "liking" of each other going on in this thread is noteworthy. If there is conflict between skilled and unskilled players in ESO it's because of threads like this one.

Where is it written that ESO was created only for group end game players? And this discussion isn't about skills. It's about players being berated for having a solo playstyle and having others try to stop the solo dungeons that are planned.

Feeling berated is not the same as actually being berated. Even worse, faking having been being berated just to create drama is a whole other problem.

SilverBride wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Players are frequently being told this isn't the game for them and they should play single player games if they don't do group end game content. Now this is being taken a step further by players lobbying to have solo dungeons stopped after we have asked for them for years and are finally getting them. And for no reason other than the claims that MMO means grouping, and that solo posters are trying to change the game from it's intended purpose, and it will make it harder for them to find groups to play their preferred way.

These comments are bad enough, but having an option we are looking forward to being lobbied against in an attempt to have it stopped is just too much.

Will you please clarify if grouping for end game content is expected , or is just one of many content options?

This is a well established pattern of behavior for some. Why the moderators promote it is disheartening in the extreme.

Some people will always claim grievances. And if they don't exist IRL, they will invent them.

Yea. Generally the same 3-5 people pointing fingers at each other and making generalizing statements

...and making sure to always hit the agree or awesome button for each other.

SilverBride · January 24

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

It's not gatekeeping to demand that group members know mechanics and builds. Do the work and put in the effort and you'll be welcome in group. Kinda like in real life. There are no free carries.

But that is not what this thread is about.

SaffronCitrusflower · January 24

SilverBride wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

It's not gatekeeping to demand that group members know mechanics and builds. Do the work and put in the effort and you'll be welcome in group. Kinda like in real life. There are no free carries.

But that is not what this thread is about.

You don't get to dictate to others what they can post....unless you're a moderator posting using a generic account.

SilverBride · January 24

Cooperharley wrote: »

ToddIngram wrote: »

This is a well established pattern of behavior for some. Why the moderators promote it is disheartening in the extreme.

Some people will always claim grievances. And if they don't exist IRL, they will invent them.

Yea. Generally the same 3-5 people pointing fingers at each other and making generalizing statements

The grievance I brought to this thead is not made up as the quote above the one I quoted claims happens. Players telling others that if they don't participate in group end game content they shouldn't be playing an MMO and should just play single player games happens... a lot. It has happened in this thread and in the thread trying to stop solo dungeons from happening, and in many others before them.

End game grouping is NOT a requirement for playing an MMO, and solo play is perfectly acceptable. That is what this thread is about.

Radiate77 · January 24

This illusion that Solo players have been catered to is dismantled with just a few easy to answer questions…

-First, with One Tamriel definitively killing Overland in 2016, Overland is now finally getting attention… what year is it?

-Second, when was the last time we received any end-game solo content like an Arena?
(Hint: Not Infinite Archive)

Now one can make the claim that Questlines are solo content and with each new zone we’ve been “catered to” but even solo players are unhappy with these.

What we have had though, is a new trial and two new dungeon packs, yearly. The pile of repeatable group content has been growing each year, while someone who prefers solo content has been left with one and done quests that are so “accessible” that they could be played on a Guitar Hero guitar.

SaffronCitrusflower · January 24

Radiate77 wrote: »

This illusion that Solo players have been catered to is dismantled with just a few easy to answer questions…

-First, with One Tamriel definitively killing Overland in 2016, Overland is now finally getting attention… what year is it?

-Second, when was the last time we received any end-game solo content like an Arena?

Now one can make the claim that Questlines are solo content and with each new zone we’ve been “catered to” but even solo players are unhappy with these.

What we have had though, is a new trial and two new dungeon packs, yearly. The pile of repeatable group content has been growing each year, while someone who prefers solo content has been left with one and done quests that are so “accessible” that they could be played on a Guitar Hero guitar.

ZOS has been favoring the solo players over group players since circa 2016. That's why GH is hurting so bad and Project Vitality left after U35. Now virtually no tutorials or anyone to teach the newbies how to compete.