Vengeance

ZOS_Icy · January 20

Greetings,

We have removed some insulting back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team

SneaK · January 20

aetherix8 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Vengeance was supposed to be about performance but the people that keep asking for it are doing so because of balance and not performance.

What? It seems we’re beginning to severely lack valid arguments against Vengeance.

Performance is just as important as balance. We want to continue having smooth running huge keep battles (as in hundreds of players fighting at the same keep with minimal to zero lag).

The reason you mainly see balance being mentioned is because it still needs to be worked out (NB by far too powerful, for example), while smooth performance is pretty much a mission accomplished.

Sorry but no, most the threads advocating for Vengeance make statements (like OPs) about enjoying “balance” (ie no subclassing) in some way shape or form and comparing it to GH. Balance shouldn’t be the pro argument for a specific campaign, it should be a game wide goal. Rarely, do these threads start off with “Man I really want Vengeance because performance is better than XYZ.” This is literally the only thing that bothers me personally. Balance should be an achievable goal for ZOS without having to give up on the rest of the game, yet almost every time these threads pop up the poster says something about balance in Vengeance and it’s crickets from ZOS about balancing the actual game. I no longer really have a problem with Vengeance, I won’t play it cause I don’t enjoy it. But I also don’t enjoy the imbalance in our current GH either.

olsborg · January 20

SneaK wrote: »

Get rid of Charm, fix the way healing scales, hybrids shouldn't be optimal, buff pure classes or get rid of subclassing.

This would be a good place to start.

xylena · January 20

SneaK wrote: »

Balance should be an achievable goal for ZOS without having to give up on the rest of the game, yet almost every time these threads pop up the poster says something about balance in Vengeance and it’s crickets from ZOS about balancing the actual game.

As the other poster alluded to, there's no need to discuss performance on Vengeance because it's a solved problem, while the balance on Vengeance does clearly need work. You don't like Vengeance, that's fine, so what do you care what happens with it?

Surprisingly it's not crickets from ZOS, the new dev team is finally communicating on PTS, they're attempting to address heal stacking. No solution yet, but they are discussing options, so if you are invested in full build PvP then would that forum not be a better use of your time?

BardokRedSnow · January 20

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

I love how people get warned about keeping the conversation civil and yet still provide unnecessary back and forth. A simple thread asking for Vengeance turns into an ego fight over the two campaigns.

Its literally one user, every single time. Every single vengeance related thread.

BardokRedSnow · January 20

Orbital78 wrote: »

I would like to see vengeance and Greyhost both up during the event and maybe we'll actually get some stats to see what is more popular rather than statements with nothing to back it.

I am fine with this, maybe itll spread the pop out a bit so greyhosts queue isnt so punishing

SneaK · January 20

xylena wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Balance should be an achievable goal for ZOS without having to give up on the rest of the game, yet almost every time these threads pop up the poster says something about balance in Vengeance and it’s crickets from ZOS about balancing the actual game.

As the other poster alluded to, there's no need to discuss performance on Vengeance because it's a solved problem, while the balance on Vengeance does clearly need work. You don't like Vengeance, that's fine, so what do you care what happens with it?

Surprisingly it's not crickets from ZOS, the new dev team is finally communicating on PTS, they're attempting to address heal stacking. No solution yet, but they are discussing options, so if you are invested in full build PvP then would that forum not be a better use of your time?

True, I don’t care about Vengeance.

But, YOU and the OP are discussing GH in this thread. OP was saying they enjoyed balance in Vengeance compared to GH. No idea what you’re saying but it all seems tailored to bashing GH with no constructive feedback.

Literally already gave thoughts in this thread about the heal stacking, yet you’re bringing it up again like we’re goldfish. It’s great they are finally trying something (which they reverted already and we have no path forward as of now).

xylena · January 20

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Its literally one user, every single time. Every single vengeance related thread.

Why do so many people continue to engage that user then? No one is obligated to. If that user's opinion was irrelevant, you'd think they would simply be ignored. Instead, it is as if GH players fear the last of their server will die the moment Vengeance actually goes live.

ToddIngram · January 20

xylena wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Vengeance was supposed to be about performance but the people that keep asking for it are doing so because of balance and not performance.

GH proponents forget they are advocating against performance improvement.

No, they're not. They're arguing for performance improvements in GH. You seem to have lost the thread.

ToddIngram · January 20

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

I love how people get warned about keeping the conversation civil and yet still provide unnecessary back and forth. A simple thread asking for Vengeance turns into an ego fight over the two campaigns.

Its literally one user, every single time. Every single vengeance related thread.

And that poster will have the same problems in vengeance that drove them out of GH to begin with. For them the problem has less to do with vengeance vs. GH than it does with creating at atmosphere nobody wants to be a part of.

xylena · January 20

ToddIngram wrote: »

creating at atmosphere nobody wants to be a part of

ball groups

proc sets

instant deaths

ToddIngram · January 20

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

I love how people get warned about keeping the conversation civil and yet still provide unnecessary back and forth. A simple thread asking for Vengeance turns into an ego fight over the two campaigns.

Its literally one user, every single time. Every single vengeance related thread.

I fear they're being allowed to continue with the behavior because ZOS has already decided that scenario 2 is going to be the future. It's just too blatant to think otherwise at this point.

BardokRedSnow · January 20

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Its literally one user, every single time. Every single vengeance related thread.

Why do so many people continue to engage that user then?

So Zos notices the ratio, vocal minorities too often get changes through around here.

aetherix8 · January 20

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Its literally one user, every single time. Every single vengeance related thread.

Why do so many people continue to engage that user then?

So Zos notices the ratio, vocal minorities too often get changes through around here.

Thanks goodness for surveys, if ZOS only ever listened to this forums exclusively this game would be dead years ago.

LittleLionLeone · January 20

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Its literally one user, every single time. Every single vengeance related thread.

No I'm definitely talking about multiple people on both sides of the argument. Just some are worse than others.

Iriidius · January 23

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

The vast majority of us actually enjoy GH, we have overwhelming evidence of that.

The vast majority of GH regulars obviously still enjoy GH. Selection bias / survivor bias.

They are a tiny minority of the thousands who once regularly played this PvP sustaining multiple servers active 24/7. Intense obsessive fanbases don't just disappear unless there are major problems for years on end, as we have experienced. The interest is still there waiting for some sort of change to be affected in the PvP paradigm.

It has nothing to do with selection or survivorship bias. Do you even know what either of those are? Every single person had the ability to play in vengeance, it wasn't like they only allowed those currently in GH as the test population, or only those who liked ballgroup gameplay. Every single person could go and the pop was still low. They were both available to be played at the same time and the vast majority chose to not go into vengeance when it wasn't overwhelmed with extra rewards and the only option available .

It has very much to do with survivorship and selection bias.
A player who likes PvP like it is now will stay in game to play the PvP ruleset he enjoys (often for many years).
A player who prefers PvP with normalized stats (like in Vengeance) but came to ESO before Vengeance was therefore unable to play PvP the way he likes and (unless he also likes PvE) had nothing to keep playing ESO for. Therefore he probably has stopped playing and wont even get information that the PvP he wants to play is now available. Even if he does Vengeance haters will tell him it isnt the PvP he wants to prevent him from testing (and if he still tries that as returning/PvE player he doesnt count).

It is strange that Vengeance haters cant imagine that players preferring Vengeance did not come or stay in game when Vengeance was not available.
They claim all the time to quit if Vengeance replaces GreyHost or even if it becomes option or testing continues.

robertlabrie · 1:12AM

The side-by-side test proved beyond question that GH remains popular among some players. The easy answer is to keep both Veng and GH and let ppl choose which one they want to play.

As a dev team, Scenario 1 is the one we strongly prefer and is the most likely. We want you to have a choice between playing in Vengeance or Gray Host, and would closely monitor both campaign populations to help inform any additional actions we should take moving forward.

Seems like that's what we're going to get. IDK why everyone is upset. Veng will become the GH waiting room (RIP BR) and with BR gone there'll be more classic players in GH. Seems like all kinds of winning, honestly.

fizzybeef · 1:17AM

robertlabrie wrote: »

The side-by-side test proved beyond question that GH remains popular among some players. The easy answer is to keep both Veng and GH and let ppl choose which one they want to play.

Ooooor keep it how it is and dont split the population.
And these who dont want to pvp then, didnt pvp before and are perhaps no loss to the pvp community of the game.

Not everything needs to be play the way you want.
You cant buy a etablished 10y old game and expect it to change.

If some people are „threatening“ they dont play pvp then- okay and?

SaffronCitrusflower · 5:37PM

xylena wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it failed

Correct. The devs shifting their resources to an entirely new PvP mode is what means GH failed. Just because you don't like the new PvP mode doesn't mean GH isn't a dead failure.

If the devs don't fix performance issues in GH it means that the devs failed, not that GH failed. Their committment to us all along is "They're working on it", so that's what they should do.

If they can't fix GH, then they can't create a new system from scratch without the same problems GH has. And that's what we saw the last instance of vengeance. When given the choice, the vast majority stayed in GH and avoided vengeance. So that's what ZOS should focus on. The vengeance vocal minority has been proven to be a very small minority indeed.

SaffronCitrusflower · 5:39PM

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

People like Vengeance, that's why there's people coming to defend it. Man the pvp community is so toxic. Thread was made to ask for Vengeance full time and here comes the die hard GH injecting their opinions about it by being toxic.

If GH is so fun then get off the forums and play it. Stop hijacking threads to start flame wars because you hate Vengeance and want no one to enjoy it.

ZOS is only going to support one version of Cyrodiil. They won't support two completely different systems, and GH has proven to by far be the more popular. So GH where the focus should be.

SaffronCitrusflower · 5:42PM

xylena wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

I'm going to vomit uncontrollably if ZOS mandates vengeance for Whitestrakes this year.

If the mandate is GH then I'm simply not logging in, and I'm not the only one.

You haven't logged on regularly for over two years now.

SaffronCitrusflower · 5:43PM

ToddIngram wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

I love how people get warned about keeping the conversation civil and yet still provide unnecessary back and forth. A simple thread asking for Vengeance turns into an ego fight over the two campaigns.

Its literally one user, every single time. Every single vengeance related thread.

And that poster will have the same problems in vengeance that drove them out of GH to begin with. For them the problem has less to do with vengeance vs. GH than it does with creating at atmosphere nobody wants to be a part of.

Nailed it!

xylena · 7:17PM

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

You haven't logged on regularly for over two years now.

Better PvP on the forums. Balanced meta. Populated server. Persistent action. Can't say any of that about GH, a proven failure that reduced the Cyro player base from thousands to a couple hundred. Advocate for your small pond if you must, but the ocean of Vengeance still rises.

SaffronCitrusflower · 9:54PM

xylena wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

You haven't logged on regularly for over two years now.

Better PvP on the forums. Balanced meta. Populated server. Persistent action. Can't say any of that about GH, a proven failure that reduced the Cyro player base from thousands to a couple hundred. Advocate for your small pond if you must, but the ocean of Vengeance still rises.

What are you going to do when ZOS mandates vengeance and you're and your wife are the only ones playing it?

Orbital78 · 10:18PM

fizzybeef wrote: »

Not everything needs to be play the way you want.

Exactly, faction locked CP campaigns need a better alternative. A high capacity fun large scale combat that doesn't have major lag sounds great to me.