Vengeance

xylena · January 19

fizzybeef wrote: »

[snip]

Yet you and the few other GH diehards clearly care enough to continue engaging me, and clearly care a lot about your 2-4 hours per day of ball groups, proc sets, and instant deaths. Yall wouldn't still be responding to me if you didn't see the writing on the wall.

GH isn't dead because Xylena no longer enjoys it, GH is dead because a PVP that was once played 24/7 by thousands is now down to a couple hundred (if that) for 2-4 hours a day (if that). The game as a whole is still played by tens of thousands. A couple hundred out of that is pathetic.
[edited to remove quote]

BardokRedSnow · January 19

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

People like Vengeance, that's why there's people coming to defend it.

They’ll defend it and pay lip service but not fill the campaigns 900 slots. I’ve seen this sort of thing before with movies and tv shows…

Just goes to show a vocal minority, and this forum is a very small minority of the community, can be very misleading.

No amount of debating or whataboutism will change the performance next to Greyhost.

BardokRedSnow · January 19

xylena wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

[snip]

Yet you and the few other GH diehards clearly care enough to continue engaging me, and clearly care a lot about your 2-4 hours per day of ball groups, proc sets, and instant deaths. Yall wouldn't still be responding to me if you didn't see the writing on the wall.

GH isn't dead because Xylena no longer enjoys it, GH is dead because a PVP that was once played 24/7 by thousands is now down to a couple hundred (if that) for 2-4 hours a day (if that). The game as a whole is still played by tens of thousands. A couple hundred out of that is pathetic.
[edited to remove quote]

People have to work, not sure what to tell ya, Covid bump is over and we can’t sit home all day on the computer screen. The lower numbers are the same for every big live service game, multiplayer game or mmo during these hours unless it’s a game popular all over the world.

ESO is largely a western mmo. Even during Covid days it wasn’t locked out constantly all day every day except midyear mayhem, this is pure copium.

xylena · January 19

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

People have to work, not sure what to tell ya

People work different shifts and live in different time zones, not sure what to tell ya.

I'm usually asleep at 8-9pm and up at 4-5am EST, there's zero action on GH when I'm around, and whatever happened during the previous NA prime is already irrelevant because 1 all caps screamer got 10 randoms to flip empty objectives after everyone else logged.

The immortal comp group problem began 2018--19 when they changed the way sticky hots worked, Cyro was already bleeding players by the time the pandemic hit. The 60 per side you get during NA prime these days used to be the two-bar NA midday dead zone after Asia falls asleep.

SneaK · January 19

Everyone acting like this post is completely innocent…

OP is asking for Vengeance because of balance, not performance. The argument immediately goes from bad to worse when the request is balance and not what Vengeance is being sold on, performance.

Everyone wants balance, the notion that Vengeance is the solution to balance is a slap in the face to most PvPers who play in GH. We would prioritize balance above everything if we had a choice.

Get rid of Charm, fix the way healing scales, hybrids shouldn't be optimal, buff pure classes or get rid of subclassing.

xylena · January 19

SneaK wrote: »

Get rid of Charm, fix the way healing scales, hybrids shouldn't be optimal, buff pure classes or get rid of subclassing.

Ah yes so simple and easy.

Here's 27 pages of the PTS getting locked after going nowhere on heal stacking.

Every problem you list is really dozens of other problems in a trench coat.

SneaK · January 19

xylena wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Get rid of Charm, fix the way healing scales, hybrids shouldn't be optimal, buff pure classes or get rid of subclassing.

Ah yes so simple and easy.

Here's 27 pages of the PTS getting locked after going nowhere on heal stacking.

Every problem you list is really dozens of other problems in a trench coat.

Cherry pick away.

Didn’t say it was simple, ZOS created the complexity (trench coats) by implementing bad update after bad update. The heal nerf was not a good solution, but I’d say progress at least cause they tried something. Charm on the other hand would be very simple to fix, get rid of it.

xylena · January 19

SneaK wrote: »

Charm on the other hand would be very simple to fix, get rid of it.

Get rid of what? Charm vs it being a normal stun? The whole thing? Okay what should the new Warden class script actually be then? Or do you mean get rid of all of Scribing?

There aren't going to be simple solutions to problems you acknowledge are complex. The devs on PTS forum said they are considering other options for heal stacking, I think many of us are very (pleasantly) surprised by their level of responsiveness this round.

Four_Fingers · January 19

Some people seem to fixate on skills that counter their ability to just "own" all players ad nauseum.

SneaK · January 19

xylena wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Charm on the other hand would be very simple to fix, get rid of it.

Get rid of what? Charm vs it being a normal stun? The whole thing? Okay what should the new Warden class script actually be then? Or do you mean get rid of all of Scribing?

There aren't going to be simple solutions to problems you acknowledge are complex. The devs on PTS forum said they are considering other options for heal stacking, I think many of us are very (pleasantly) surprised by their level of responsiveness this round.

You’re wilding out over there.

Charm needs fixed, or reworked, whatever.

My first post was on topic but you’re derailing this thread with details about balance and the complexity of doing so, which only ties to my original point, that Vengeance was supposed to be about performance but the people that keep asking for it are doing so because of balance and not performance.

xylena · January 19

SneaK wrote: »

Vengeance was supposed to be about performance but the people that keep asking for it are doing so because of balance and not performance.

GH proponents forget they are advocating against performance improvement.

SneaK · January 19

xylena wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Vengeance was supposed to be about performance but the people that keep asking for it are doing so because of balance and not performance.

GH proponents forget they are advocating against performance improvement.

I’m sure in some weird way that makes sense to you.

Artisian0001 · January 19

xylena wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Vengeance was supposed to be about performance but the people that keep asking for it are doing so because of balance and not performance.

GH proponents forget they are advocating against performance improvement.

Everyone in GH wants better performance, they just don't want to sacrifice enjoyable gameplay for it. Vengeance players want a dead campaign. GH players are advocating for gameplay. Vengeance players are advocating for the death of ESO.

xylena · January 19

Artisian0001 wrote: »

they just don't want to sacrifice enjoyable gameplay for it

You mean you don't want to sacrifice the old build system, which is what you enjoy.

I'm fine sacrificing ball groups, proc sets, and instakills on the altar of performance.

There's plenty of room to improve Vengeance with the class reworks. GH will still lag.

Artisian0001 · January 19

xylena wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

they just don't want to sacrifice enjoyable gameplay for it

You mean you don't want to sacrifice the old build system, which is what you enjoy.

I'm fine sacrificing ball groups, proc sets, and instakills on the altar of performance.

There's plenty of room to improve Vengeance with the class reworks. GH will still lag.

It has almost nothing to do with the old build system. Do you even play vengeance or GH? Do you not understand how many differences there are between the two? I don't like the skills, I don't like the skill targeting limits, I don't like the copy pasted stats for each person, I don't like the zero theory crafting and all it comes down to is swapping skills, there is no originality, the gameplay is slow. I'm fine ((and hint hint, according to the test so is the vast majority of the PvP playerbase) sacrificing latency and frames for an experience that is actually enjoyable.

GH hasn't ever, and neither has the game as a whole, experienced an actual overhaul on it's code. Will it ever? Probably not, it's difficult, that's why they took the easier route of designing a 2nd campaign for people who cry on the forums about GH when vengeance is already being designed. They just didn't expect it to have such little backing because they thought the amount of people who actually had issue with GH was large, because certain people like yourself will go comment on every thread, even ones completely unrelated, and make it about GH, or ballgroups, or RoA. You don't like real PvP, we get it, go to vengeance. The vast majority of us actually enjoy GH, we have overwhelming evidence of that.

xylena · January 19

Artisian0001 wrote: »

The vast majority of us actually enjoy GH, we have overwhelming evidence of that.

The vast majority of GH regulars obviously still enjoy GH. Selection bias / survivor bias.

They are a tiny minority of the thousands who once regularly played this PvP sustaining multiple servers active 24/7. Intense obsessive fanbases don't just disappear unless there are major problems for years on end, as we have experienced. The interest is still there waiting for some sort of change to be affected in the PvP paradigm.

Artisian0001 · January 19

xylena wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

The vast majority of us actually enjoy GH, we have overwhelming evidence of that.

The vast majority of GH regulars obviously still enjoy GH. Selection bias / survivor bias.

They are a tiny minority of the thousands who once regularly played this PvP sustaining multiple servers active 24/7. Intense obsessive fanbases don't just disappear unless there are major problems for years on end, as we have experienced. The interest is still there waiting for some sort of change to be affected in the PvP paradigm.

It has nothing to do with selection or survivorship bias. Do you even know what either of those are? Every single person had the ability to play in vengeance, it wasn't like they only allowed those currently in GH as the test population, or only those who liked ballgroup gameplay. Every single person could go and the pop was still low. They were both available to be played at the same time and the vast majority chose to not go into vengeance when it wasn't overwhelmed with extra rewards and the only option available .

BardokRedSnow · January 19

xylena wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

People have to work, not sure what to tell ya

People work different shifts and live in different time zones, not sure what to tell ya.

And most of us in the US on PC NA, which has most prominently, Americans... work during the day 9-5. Even with time zone variation, its still covering most of the day, its a difference of a few hours.

The disingenuous bad faith takes are why these vengeance topics always head south, denial of reality.

MincMincMinc · January 19

Artisian0001 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

The vast majority of us actually enjoy GH, we have overwhelming evidence of that.

The vast majority of GH regulars obviously still enjoy GH. Selection bias / survivor bias.

They are a tiny minority of the thousands who once regularly played this PvP sustaining multiple servers active 24/7. Intense obsessive fanbases don't just disappear unless there are major problems for years on end, as we have experienced. The interest is still there waiting for some sort of change to be affected in the PvP paradigm.

It has nothing to do with selection or survivorship bias. Do you even know what either of those are? Every single person had the ability to play in vengeance, it wasn't like they only allowed those currently in GH as the test population, or only those who liked ballgroup gameplay. Every single person could go and the pop was still low. They were both available to be played at the same time and the vast majority chose to not go into vengeance when it wasn't overwhelmed with extra rewards and the only option available .

Well survivorship bias does come into effect if we are talking how original cyrodil was filled with numerous servers all at the 1800(probably 900) pop lock for the first year or two. Compared to post summerset era where for the past 8 years we have been struggling with the same few hundred players left. Speaking from PCNA numbers. Everyone remaining quite literally survived and is obviously fine with the lag or else they would have left the game.

They should have restructured pvp back when they did the lighting patch and anti bot patch way back in like 2015. I'm sure a year after launch they just didnt want the bad press of suddenly not having big factional warfare. It looked much better to just say "we are working on it" vs saying "hey our 1800 player servers are now only 300 players."

xylena · January 19

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Every single person had the ability to play in vengeance

GH players prefer GH to Vengeance. Noted.

Nobody is excited for another "test" after a solid year of testing. I barely played the last two tests. This is what the devs called "test fatigue." Players who want Vengeance think it is good enough to go live, there are regularly threads in General Discussion asking for it.

xylena · January 19

Artisian0001 wrote: »

They didn't in large numbers at all.

Why would I waste much time on another test? I played it a few days, gave my feedback about NB resources and DK chain spam, then moved on. Is the new DK rework a failure to you because more people play Live than the PTS?

xylena · January 19

Artisian0001 wrote: »

The population was low because most people do not like it. It's very simple. Catch on.

So the new DK rework should be judged by how many people play the PTS?

That's what these Vengeance tests are. PTS server mode. Unfinished product where nothing you do matters because it's all getting wiped in a week. The persistent nature of Cyro is a major part of its appeal, one lost by GH, an unfinished product where nothing you do matters because it all gets wiped by 10 guys fighting doors in the off hours.

So you test, give feedback, and otherwise move onto other pursuits until they finish. With the right model, this PvP can once again be played by thousands. Maybe this iteration of Vengeance isn't it, but it's at least a foundation that solves certain problems GH will always fail on.

Artisian0001 · January 19

xylena wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it failed

Correct.

Thank you. If only people understood easier that if every single person has access to Vengeance that means there was no bias and more people prefer GH.

ZOS_Hadeostry · January 19

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here

xylena · January 19

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Thank you. If only people understood easier that if every single person has access to Vengeance that means there was no bias and more people prefer GH.

Everyone can access the PTS. More people play Live than PTS. Does that mean more people prefer current DK to new DK?

Conversely, the subclassing patch was unusually active on PTS, yet subclassing continues to be a contentious topic, not any sort of clear positive preference.

Everyone also has access to GH. All the time. Yet its population only ever goes down.

BardokRedSnow · January 20

xylena wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Thank you. If only people understood easier that if every single person has access to Vengeance that means there was no bias and more people prefer GH.

Everyone can access the PTS. More people play Live than PTS. Does that mean more people prefer current DK to new DK?

You're comparing the pts to vengeance being readily available alongside greyhost and not requiring an entire different instance of the game to download and saying that invalidates it being more popular than vengeance. xD

What are we doing here, really.

Orbital78 · January 20

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

What are we doing here, really.

I'm not sure to be honest...

aetherix8 · January 20

SneaK wrote: »

Vengeance was supposed to be about performance but the people that keep asking for it are doing so because of balance and not performance.

What? It seems we’re beginning to severely lack valid arguments against Vengeance.

Performance is just as important as balance. We want to continue having smooth running huge keep battles (as in hundreds of players fighting at the same keep with minimal to zero lag).

The reason you mainly see balance being mentioned is because it still needs to be worked out (NB by far too powerful, for example), while smooth performance is pretty much a mission accomplished.

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Everyone in GH wants better performance, they just don't want to sacrifice enjoyable gameplay for it. Vengeance players want a dead campaign. GH players are advocating for gameplay. Vengeance players are advocating for the death of ESO.

Yes, severely lacking counter arguments, but at least it’s kind of funny. Why would Vengeance enthusiasts advocate for the death of ESO? If there’s no ESO, there’s no Vengeance. And please link at least one post suggesting that people want to play empty/dead campaigns, be it GH, Veng or any other.

LittleLionLeone · January 20

I love how people get warned about keeping the conversation civil and yet still provide unnecessary back and forth. A simple thread asking for Vengeance turns into an ego fight over the two campaigns.

Orbital78 · January 20

I would like to see vengeance and Greyhost both up during the event and maybe we'll actually get some stats to see what is more popular rather than statements with nothing to back it.

Like solo mode dungeons, both have been confirmed and in our future, whether you like it or not. It is time to accept that more than what your narrow view of enjoyment are going to be enjoyed by many others.

Queues for more than 15 minutes are not acceptable. The time for change will be great, as will enjoying Cyrodiil the way it was really meant to be. Large scale battles of epic proportion and lag is almost always the limiting factor on other campaigns beyond the low population cap to try to prevent that.