MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Do we want to balance for right now, or balance for a planned future on a standard?

Isn't the new DK part of the new dev team's planned future standard? I guess it would be cool if we knew what the devs' standards or vision for regen/sustain in PvP looked like.

hoangdz wrote: »

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

Milking out a little more performance from the existing meta does not sound like something that needs to be nerfed. It sounds inconsequential compared to existing meta problems. You've identified a lot of possibilities in a vacuum, but not where those fit into the meta, no specific build or strat that changes anything, you won't even say it'll have people dropping their animal assassins.

If Corrosive and Onslaught are the real problems, then we're done here, I'd probably agree with you regarding Onslaught because the Acuity effect is already proven degenerate.

Bolded what I care about corrosive, well that’s just a joke and needs to be flattened into the ground asap either the damage needs to go down or the amount of damage you take needs to go up no one should be running around basically an unkillable Demigod if they have an ounce of skill

And onslaught …well enough has been said it needs to loose the pen or loose the crit one or the other though I’m welcome to ideas on either tbh

Could also revert onslaught back to its unique ult return concept instead of being a corrosive gimmicky copy.

Ironically I’d rather see them both axed the counterplay to either of them is either spam dodge roll and hope you don’t have many dots on you or just turn and run if you have the movement speed 🫣😂

the only counterplay is to be 28m away. Last patch i was running an acuity undodgeable unpurgeable dot build and killed people by walking near them.

Northern
hurricane
Blade cloak
Arctic blast
blood mist

Quite literally pop onslaught or corrosive and walk next to people, except now i can drop acuity and northern and slot essence or something like unleashed which crits.

Slotting unleashed on this would make me queue for ic with my movement speed 😂

It was running pale order too, kinda like remaking old batswarm feeling....another ult which just simply became a copy and paste of goliath.

hoangdz wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

We're still going? Literally linked an example earlier of how you can do this on Live with Siphoning Attacks while not just tanking one person, but half a BG team... in noCP, without even dropping below 80% Stamina... With 800/900 regens.

What is the point you're trying to make here @hoangdz ? Do I need to dig through VODs and link you a Dark Deal example as well? I have one where I streak from one side of Cyrodiil to the other with a ball group chasing me if you're curious.


Also imagine thinking complaining about Hardened Ward is some kind of a flex.

How is Hardened Ward right now? Oh, right... No one runs it anymore because it's a garbage ability now and the skill line overall is meh.


This is exactly why I always say on my streams ZOS should be careful about what kind of "feedback" they listen to.

You were on a block healer. I am on a DPS build. Your comparison is not the same.

Hardened Ward when first released was utterly broken and I was the first person to create a long thread asking for it to be nerfed. A lot of people were doing what you're doing, arguing against me. Turns out I was right and ZOS eventually nerfed it to the ground. My feedback on abilities have been correct so far.

You're right, it's not the same... Because playing a healer is a lot more resource intensive than playing a normal damage build (block or not), thank you for pointing this out. You could do the same even easier on a block oriented DD build.

You may have picked up on how Hardened Ward was really strong before subclassing, well done. Unfortunately it stopped being strong the second subclassing was introduced (same patch where it was nerfed)... and now it's another dead ability in a game full of unused, dead abilities. And you've moved on to try and create more of them while thinking that's "good feedback".

The funniest thing is that even if old Hardened Ward existed on Live, it wouldn't be meta or considered "overpowered", because people have access to stronger skill lines with their own powerful defensive abilities... Since luckily "feedback" hasn't gotten all of those nerfed yet.

Me picking up on how Hardened Ward overperformed day one of PTS was the key. It was immediately feedback that the playerbase deemed “overreacting”, yet became true when the meta established. It didnt take me months to figure that out. It took 1 day of PTS testing. You dismissing or playing it off doesn’t change the fact that before subclass came out, my prediction was correct. Don’t try to veer off.

The same thing is happening in this thread. I am simply pointing out how Inhale can overperform. Whether the meta catches up or not, time will answer.

I have noticed that your style of arguing is very much bad faith. I don’t know if you do it intentionally or you just don’t realize it, but your responses to my claims have been mostly ad hominem or strawman arguments.

I'm arguing in bad faith? You're laser focused on one good ability in the game while there are so many other "overpowered" abilities in the game.

Where's the same outrage about Merciless Resolve? New Molten Whip (faster travel time, stacking, more tt damage, not reflectable)? Superheated Ward ("old" Hardened Ward basically)? Shalks? Ele sus? Rune? Siphoning Attacks? Vigor?

There's a lot of abilities that do what they do really well in the game, and the answer isn't to nerf all of them to the point of uselessness... Especially ones that are not even in the game yet, unless something is obviously bugged and breaking the game (i.e. Engulfing Dragonfire stacking, which was fixed afaik).

Inhale does not break the game any more so than existing abilities, which I've already proven with what I linked.


The answer to all these "overpowered abilities" is buffing other underperforming abilities in the game and giving more tools for people to compete without subclassing. Which I believe is the whole idea behind the reworks...

I’ve already pointed out using a skill that costs health as primary damage skill completely discredits any claim of a skill restoring stam and mag being overpowered. Considering if using another skill in place of BfB such as molten whip which costs both would likely better show how much one gets from inhale.

It doesn’t because sustain with Dark Deal using Bfb is much weaker. I don’t need to remove everything just to prove Inhale over performs. I just need to remove enough. You are ignoring this part of the argument to fit your own narrative.

Ok first dark deal has not received rework yet that will happen by end of yr so your point it’s weaker is null and void. I’m not ignoring anything fyi it is you ignoring a multitude of factors because yes when your primary source of damage is using your health effectively freeing your resource pools you fail to properly test inhale. Now what you are mainly demonstrating now with how adamantly you’re arguing here is confirmation bias. Meaning every test you do is in the logic of proving your point instead of disproving your point which effectively discredits your point in the end. In the video you used to attempt to disprove me if we go back and watch carefully we find effectively your resource pools hit points where one could effectively say you were empty and couldn’t cast resource spenders. Which in turn disproves infinite sustain. Why does this disprove infinite sustain because effectively for even 1 second you could not cast a stam spender or a mag spender. I’ll give you some respect for going and testing however your test at its core is flawed.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Do we want to balance for right now, or balance for a planned future on a standard?

Isn't the new DK part of the new dev team's planned future standard? I guess it would be cool if we knew what the devs' standards or vision for regen/sustain in PvP looked like.

hoangdz wrote: »

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

Milking out a little more performance from the existing meta does not sound like something that needs to be nerfed. It sounds inconsequential compared to existing meta problems. You've identified a lot of possibilities in a vacuum, but not where those fit into the meta, no specific build or strat that changes anything, you won't even say it'll have people dropping their animal assassins.

If Corrosive and Onslaught are the real problems, then we're done here, I'd probably agree with you regarding Onslaught because the Acuity effect is already proven degenerate.

Bolded what I care about corrosive, well that’s just a joke and needs to be flattened into the ground asap either the damage needs to go down or the amount of damage you take needs to go up no one should be running around basically an unkillable Demigod if they have an ounce of skill

And onslaught …well enough has been said it needs to loose the pen or loose the crit one or the other though I’m welcome to ideas on either tbh

Could also revert onslaught back to its unique ult return concept instead of being a corrosive gimmicky copy.

Ironically I’d rather see them both axed the counterplay to either of them is either spam dodge roll and hope you don’t have many dots on you or just turn and run if you have the movement speed 🫣😂

the only counterplay is to be 28m away. Last patch i was running an acuity undodgeable unpurgeable dot build and killed people by walking near them.

Northern
hurricane
Blade cloak
Arctic blast
blood mist

Quite literally pop onslaught or corrosive and walk next to people, except now i can drop acuity and northern and slot essence or something like unleashed which crits.

Slotting unleashed on this would make me queue for ic with my movement speed 😂

It was running pale order too, kinda like remaking old batswarm feeling....another ult which just simply became a copy and paste of goliath.

Unfortunately when bat swarm was good it was great then players cried it got nerfed you never saw it again even after the change
This is why I want skills brought up as a whole not nerfed I miss seeing skills kill me that I don’t even usually see I miss the diversity

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Do we want to balance for right now, or balance for a planned future on a standard?

Isn't the new DK part of the new dev team's planned future standard? I guess it would be cool if we knew what the devs' standards or vision for regen/sustain in PvP looked like.

hoangdz wrote: »

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

Milking out a little more performance from the existing meta does not sound like something that needs to be nerfed. It sounds inconsequential compared to existing meta problems. You've identified a lot of possibilities in a vacuum, but not where those fit into the meta, no specific build or strat that changes anything, you won't even say it'll have people dropping their animal assassins.

If Corrosive and Onslaught are the real problems, then we're done here, I'd probably agree with you regarding Onslaught because the Acuity effect is already proven degenerate.

Bolded what I care about corrosive, well that’s just a joke and needs to be flattened into the ground asap either the damage needs to go down or the amount of damage you take needs to go up no one should be running around basically an unkillable Demigod if they have an ounce of skill

And onslaught …well enough has been said it needs to loose the pen or loose the crit one or the other though I’m welcome to ideas on either tbh

Could also revert onslaught back to its unique ult return concept instead of being a corrosive gimmicky copy.

Ironically I’d rather see them both axed the counterplay to either of them is either spam dodge roll and hope you don’t have many dots on you or just turn and run if you have the movement speed 🫣😂

the only counterplay is to be 28m away. Last patch i was running an acuity undodgeable unpurgeable dot build and killed people by walking near them.

Northern
hurricane
Blade cloak
Arctic blast
blood mist

Quite literally pop onslaught or corrosive and walk next to people, except now i can drop acuity and northern and slot essence or something like unleashed which crits.

Slotting unleashed on this would make me queue for ic with my movement speed 😂

It was running pale order too, kinda like remaking old batswarm feeling....another ult which just simply became a copy and paste of goliath.

Unfortunately when bat swarm was good it was great then players cried it got nerfed you never saw it again even after the change
This is why I want skills brought up as a whole not nerfed I miss seeing skills kill me that I don’t even usually see I miss the diversity

somewhere along the lines zos started removing unique mechanics and our skill diversity became "oh but this skill has this major and this one has this major" Which has only lead to the bloated mess we see in the skill system. I mean doesnt one of the other new dk skills give like 3 major/minor buffs while doing a snare while doing a heal while going on your allies....... I remember seeing one that was like 3 or 4 paragraphs of effects.

Old mist form? literally doesnt exist to any capacity now. New mist could have been an entirely new skill in another skill line.

Erm maybe is that the new ash cloud, not many people will use it though think that’s why it’s stacked

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yep, going to have to agree with Xylena and Decimus and everyone else here basically. I'm also biased but like, the whole premise of this argument only has duels to work with, and dueling stopped being about actual skill and more about just meta building after 2017. DK can have all the permablock sustain in the world and it's still going to get bursted down in 1 gcd when they get stunned through block by literally every single CC ignoring counter-play and being made unblockable so... /shrug emoji. DKs SHOULD be the only outlier for being able to exist on the brink and come back full force with a burst of dire resources, the dev team have encapsulated that lost identity with this refresh, massive win I have to admit to and it gives me hope for the other classes.


You also keep bringing up hardened ward, and as Decimus pointed out, it's a not as good a take as you think it is.


@hoangdz I do think you bring up valid points, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't be opposed to a small nerf like reducing the resource return to 10% down from 15% or keeping the resource return but lowering the base damage. But I think the resource return as-is needs to remain as it does play into what a DK should be able to do in combat, and this type of outlier identity is a good thing for the game and need to happen for all the other classes.

The damage doesn’t need to get worse when he was dueling with it on his normal build it was hitting for 2.5non crits the damage is poor he only hit 6.7k with a crit with 100% from onslaught using the damage morph 😂 and his crit damage is near capped

That 6.7k crit was in a full tank build with 3 defensive blue CPs, Nord race, and decisive trait 2H. I could have easily ran 1 extra damage CP, swapped to Khajiit, swapped to nirn 2H, and would have easily critted for 8.5-9k there. I mean I literally showed you the CPs and traits, but you couldn’t bother to see lmao.

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Do we want to balance for right now, or balance for a planned future on a standard?

Isn't the new DK part of the new dev team's planned future standard? I guess it would be cool if we knew what the devs' standards or vision for regen/sustain in PvP looked like.

hoangdz wrote: »

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

Milking out a little more performance from the existing meta does not sound like something that needs to be nerfed. It sounds inconsequential compared to existing meta problems. You've identified a lot of possibilities in a vacuum, but not where those fit into the meta, no specific build or strat that changes anything, you won't even say it'll have people dropping their animal assassins.

If Corrosive and Onslaught are the real problems, then we're done here, I'd probably agree with you regarding Onslaught because the Acuity effect is already proven degenerate.

Bolded what I care about corrosive, well that’s just a joke and needs to be flattened into the ground asap either the damage needs to go down or the amount of damage you take needs to go up no one should be running around basically an unkillable Demigod if they have an ounce of skill

And onslaught …well enough has been said it needs to loose the pen or loose the crit one or the other though I’m welcome to ideas on either tbh

Could also revert onslaught back to its unique ult return concept instead of being a corrosive gimmicky copy.

Ironically I’d rather see them both axed the counterplay to either of them is either spam dodge roll and hope you don’t have many dots on you or just turn and run if you have the movement speed 🫣😂

the only counterplay is to be 28m away. Last patch i was running an acuity undodgeable unpurgeable dot build and killed people by walking near them.

Northern
hurricane
Blade cloak
Arctic blast
blood mist

Quite literally pop onslaught or corrosive and walk next to people, except now i can drop acuity and northern and slot essence or something like unleashed which crits.

Slotting unleashed on this would make me queue for ic with my movement speed 😂

It was running pale order too, kinda like remaking old batswarm feeling....another ult which just simply became a copy and paste of goliath.

Unfortunately when bat swarm was good it was great then players cried it got nerfed you never saw it again even after the change
This is why I want skills brought up as a whole not nerfed I miss seeing skills kill me that I don’t even usually see I miss the diversity

somewhere along the lines zos started removing unique mechanics and our skill diversity became "oh but this skill has this major and this one has this major" Which has only lead to the bloated mess we see in the skill system. I mean doesnt one of the other new dk skills give like 3 major/minor buffs while doing a snare while doing a heal while going on your allies....... I remember seeing one that was like 3 or 4 paragraphs of effects.

Old mist form? literally doesnt exist to any capacity now. New mist could have been an entirely new skill in another skill line.

Erm maybe is that the new ash cloud, not many people will use it though think that’s why it’s stacked

Yeah i think its the ashcloud remake. Just like how do we have one combat team testing vengeance saying skills and skill interactions are overcomplicated and causing performance issues......then a patch later we are seeing stuff like this? Do we just not care about complicated skills anymore? Or are we just digging the hole deeper?

EDIT: damn why is this image so big lol

One had no proc cyrodil and a test years ago which was good
So their answer was to bring out dark convergence and other proc sets 😂

fix lag with more lag, brilliant

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I'm just going to ignore the back and forth arguing claiming OP is out to get DK for 10 pages, but can we all ask collectively why something on the PTS can't be critiqued? This is the place for it. Stop worrying about DK being dead on arrival, there are many things that it needs work on, the bones that are there are in a great place. Number tweaking isn't difficult.

Additionally, unless ZOS plans to completely reework set bonuses, food, racials, and potions, it's clear the sustain from 1 ability is overtuned in comparison to pretty much any other build avenue available. I intially thought we need to see other class reworks, and I still do to some degree, but it's not hard to comprehend that the current design is problematic.

Anyway, can we get to suggestions instead of pretending it's perfect.

This is how other sustain tools perform:

• Restoring Focus (918 Stam) = 242/s over 20s (5082)
• Channeled Focus (1080 Mag) = 242/s over 25s (6292)
• Betty (Free) = 192/s over 25s (4992)
• Dark Deal (2700 Mag)= 240/s over 10s + 3600 upfront (6000)
• Dark Conversion (3240 Stam) = 300/2s over 20s + 4500 upfront (7500)
• Siphoning Attacks (4000 HP) = 200x2/s over infinity + 2600x2 on cast (lol)

I'd say HoF is most similar to Dark Deal or Dark Conversion. If those abilities were used once every 4s, they'd provide 4560 - 5100, in addition to healing, Blood Magic, and Minor Berserk. These skills will probably be reworked into being hybrid like Siphoning Attacks and HoF, where the off resource doesn't seem to be apart of the budget, so I'll do the same.

Here's how I'd change it:

• Instead of "Restores 45% of your missing Max Magicka and Stamina every 2s over 4s (3 ticks, 15% each)."
• Cost: Free
  • Restores 2000 Magicka and Stamina every 1s over 4s (5 ticks), increased by up to +100% based on missing resources.
  • Removes the annoying back and forth nature of spending/returning magicka to end up at the same point.
  • Flat, 400/s which is buffed up to 800/s based on your missing resources. More reasonable and less exploitable.

Instead of a free cost, they can play around with the bottom 2 options:

1. Cost: 3510 Mag - Determined by Lowest Max Resource.
   • This ensures your main resource actually gets the recovery you want while making your off resource less free and something you have to actually consider.
   • Buff up the initial 2k bonus suggestion to 3k to account for the ability having a cost again.
2. Cost: 1755 Mag and 1755 Stam.
   • Fits the Whip playstyle, both amounts are much lower than the initial fat 3510 so the back and forth nature remains, but is less punishing.
   • Could buff the multiplier from 100% to 150~200% to make what resources your at more intentional

Idk to me, the 45% of your max does not fit DK at all. The intent of giving back more resources at a lower value is fun because it matches Dragon Blood.. however they recently learned basing something off of missing resources is too polarizing on the top and low end, so they made that a flat value with a bonus. I think that was the right approach here too. DK is not a class I want to build max resources on, it's completely out of place.

I've completely avoided talking about the healing and damage because I don't know the right place for those, but I can say I wish HoF had a higher tooltip or some type of named or unamed buff for 10s to make it more viable for PVE. If the sustain was nerfed a little, I see no reason not too allow the damage to excel a little bit more.

Interesting suggestion on how HoF could be changed, thanks for the input!

Regarding the damage of HoF, the other morph, SoF, deals increased damage which is only slightly less than Fissure’s initial tooltip. From my testings, its maximum damage output in a tanky openworld build falls in the 6-7k range, with room to improve. More investments in damage should increase that max value to 7.5k-8k, with the upper limit of 9-10k being very possible against a squishier target.

Personally, I am not a fan of a delayed burst ability having a strong sustain function. That imo puts it above other sustain skills currently in the game. I would move the sustain to another skill and add some buffs to HoF to compensate for losing the sustain.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yep, going to have to agree with Xylena and Decimus and everyone else here basically. I'm also biased but like, the whole premise of this argument only has duels to work with, and dueling stopped being about actual skill and more about just meta building after 2017. DK can have all the permablock sustain in the world and it's still going to get bursted down in 1 gcd when they get stunned through block by literally every single CC ignoring counter-play and being made unblockable so... /shrug emoji. DKs SHOULD be the only outlier for being able to exist on the brink and come back full force with a burst of dire resources, the dev team have encapsulated that lost identity with this refresh, massive win I have to admit to and it gives me hope for the other classes.


You also keep bringing up hardened ward, and as Decimus pointed out, it's a not as good a take as you think it is.


@hoangdz I do think you bring up valid points, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't be opposed to a small nerf like reducing the resource return to 10% down from 15% or keeping the resource return but lowering the base damage. But I think the resource return as-is needs to remain as it does play into what a DK should be able to do in combat, and this type of outlier identity is a good thing for the game and need to happen for all the other classes.

The damage doesn’t need to get worse when he was dueling with it on his normal build it was hitting for 2.5non crits the damage is poor he only hit 6.7k with a crit with 100% from onslaught using the damage morph 😂 and his crit damage is near capped

You have to keep in mind the person he was fitting to get those hits was likely also running basically identical meta build with over-capped resist and 4k something crit resist.

Apart from what you said, I also had 3 blue defensive CPs and was a Nord race with a decisive battleaxe. I was practically in a tanky openworld build fighting another tank. Swapping to Nirn battleaxe, Khajiit, and using 1-2 more damage CP would have bumped that 6.7k crit to at least 7.5k. 8k-8.5k is a realistic number if I ran more damage.

@MashmalloMan

I think we should avoid having these constants not based on anything like a flat 1000 x missing resources. Mainly for the fact that we want stats to mean something in the game. Otherwise why not get rid of all stats and just go the vengeance route if none of them matter?

Giving dk a reason for max stats isn't a terrible idea. I'm hoping the same thing happens to sorc and warden. But for max stats to be used again we would need to gut out all the bloated regen zos threw at us with:

• food
• mundus
• jewelry enchants
• major being 30% instead of 20%
• monster 1piece double regens
• Subclassing stacking various sustain
• player speed buffs power creeping undermining sprint costs and the necessity of gap closers
• cp
• etc

MincMincMinc wrote: »

@MashmalloMan

I think we should avoid having these constants not based on anything like a flat 1000 x missing resources. Mainly for the fact that we want stats to mean something in the game. Otherwise why not get rid of all stats and just go the vengeance route if none of them matter?

Giving dk a reason for max stats isn't a terrible idea. I'm hoping the same thing happens to sorc and warden. But for max stats to be used again we would need to gut out all the bloated regen zos threw at us with:

• food
• mundus
• jewelry enchants
• major being 30% instead of 20%
• monster 1piece double regens
• Subclassing stacking various sustain
• player speed buffs power creeping undermining sprint costs and the necessity of gap closers
• cp
• etc

Well you kind of need to have them flat because ability costs are mostly flat too. They directly counter each other. Cost reduction bonuses are pretty minor in todays context vs how they were at launch. HoF gets a +50% bonus from 20k to 30k resources and just gets higher and higher, potentially invalidating other build avenues because you have a 1 click button for infinite sustain.

Plus, Max resources serves 2 purposes right now, it gives stronger tooltips at about 60%~70% the rate equivilant to w/s damage, but it's balanced because it also improves sustain and your defensive skills. If you make it too advantageous to build for, that 60~70% gap becomes null when you no longer need to build the original recovery's in. It's the Sorc + Hardened Ward burst heal + 60k magicka meta all over again in a different way. You don't have the +18% scaling, but you don't need Wretched Vitality either.

Also a little confused because you asked for recovery to be nerfed, but also think it's okay for 1 ability to invalidate recovery to the point where you no longer need to invest into it?

I understand wanting max resource stacking to be a viable build option, but of the 7 classes, why does it need to be on DK when nearly none of their kit really entices that type of fantasy and doesn't need to after all the rework accomplished. They have very clear build avenues, for the same reason I don't need Sorcerer to have bonuses to dot, flame, burning, or ulti gen. That's a DK thing.

And I'm on the same page for the most part, like for Sorc, I commented in another thread recently that they should reduce the conflicting bonuses the class has. For example; W/S damage for slotting when shields, flat heals like surge, dark deal, and blood magic don't scale from that at all and probably won't in the future. Blocking bonuses on a class that is meant to be elusive with their positioning, rather than outright tanking damage, in addition to shields not getting anything from block.

Since Minor Prophecy, Crit Surge, and max resource stacking for shields will presumably stay, they could rework passives like the w/s damage into 1% crit and 2% max resources for slotting which is much more thematic and useful for the class, but also different than any other class available despite having similar bonuses, but offering it in a unique way.

Anyway, just an example, imo let DK's do their thing and leave space for other classes to do their thing.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

@MashmalloMan

I think we should avoid having these constants not based on anything like a flat 1000 x missing resources. Mainly for the fact that we want stats to mean something in the game. Otherwise why not get rid of all stats and just go the vengeance route if none of them matter?

Giving dk a reason for max stats isn't a terrible idea. I'm hoping the same thing happens to sorc and warden. But for max stats to be used again we would need to gut out all the bloated regen zos threw at us with:

• food
• mundus
• jewelry enchants
• major being 30% instead of 20%
• monster 1piece double regens
• Subclassing stacking various sustain
• player speed buffs power creeping undermining sprint costs and the necessity of gap closers
• cp
• etc

Well you kind of need to have them flat because ability costs are mostly flat too. They directly counter each other. Cost reduction bonuses are pretty minor in todays context vs how they were at launch. HoF gets a +50% bonus from 20k to 30k resources and just gets higher and higher, potentially invalidating other build avenues because you have a 1 click button for infinite sustain.

Plus, Max resources serves 2 purposes right now, it gives stronger tooltips at about 60%~70% the rate equivilant to w/s damage, but it's balanced because it also improves sustain and your defensive skills. If you make it too advantageous to build for, that 60~70% gap becomes null when you no longer need to build the original recovery's in. It's the Sorc + Hardened Ward burst heal + 60k magicka meta all over again in a different way. You don't have the +18% scaling, but you don't need Wretched Vitality either.

Also a little confused because you asked for recovery to be nerfed, but also think it's okay for 1 ability to invalidate recovery to the point where you no longer need to invest into it?

I understand wanting max resource stacking to be a viable build option, but of the 7 classes, why does it need to be on DK when nearly none of their kit really entices that type of fantasy and doesn't need to after all the rework accomplished. They have very clear build avenues, for the same reason I don't need Sorcerer to have bonuses to dot, flame, burning, or ulti gen. That's a DK thing.

And I'm on the same page for the most part, like for Sorc, I commented in another thread recently that they should reduce the conflicting bonuses the class has. For example; W/S damage for slotting when shields, flat heals like surge, dark deal, and blood magic don't scale from that at all and probably won't in the future. Blocking bonuses on a class that is meant to be elusive with their positioning, rather than outright tanking damage, in addition to shields not getting anything from block.

Since Minor Prophecy, Crit Surge, and max resource stacking for shields will presumably stay, they could rework passives like the w/s damage into 1% crit and 2% max resources for slotting which is much more thematic and useful for the class, but also different than any other class available despite having similar bonuses, but offering it in a unique way.

Anyway, just an example, imo let DK's do their thing and leave space for other classes to do their thing.

Well i am more in favor of active sustain vs just having sustain innately. Most players, including myself, now don't even give sustain a second thought. I don't run any active sustain skills because I get enough through tripots, bearhaunch, passives. That's like 1/3 of the build requiring no thought anymore.

Its more of how regen was always 1:1 with WD, but now most of the sources are giving up to even double. Its not like skill costs over the years have doubled. Zos probably inflated sustain to help push players into the hybridization design.

I did already point out earlier that HOF as it is can go crazy numbers wise, and it is only equivalent to current sustain skills if given gracious assumptions using the current meta. The back and forth arguing seems to come from people either assuming a new player is using the skill inefficiently and the other party is assuming the person using the skill is leaning the full build into it in the most sweaty environment.

olsborg wrote: »

I wonder where the siph tree is in current meta....oh wait..

Buff swallow soul