Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yep, going to have to agree with Xylena and Decimus and everyone else here basically. I'm also biased but like, the whole premise of this argument only has duels to work with, and dueling stopped being about actual skill and more about just meta building after 2017. DK can have all the permablock sustain in the world and it's still going to get bursted down in 1 gcd when they get stunned through block by literally every single CC ignoring counter-play and being made unblockable so... /shrug emoji. DKs SHOULD be the only outlier for being able to exist on the brink and come back full force with a burst of dire resources, the dev team have encapsulated that lost identity with this refresh, massive win I have to admit to and it gives me hope for the other classes.


You also keep bringing up hardened ward, and as Decimus pointed out, it's a not as good a take as you think it is.


@hoangdz I do think you bring up valid points, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't be opposed to a small nerf like reducing the resource return to 10% down from 15% or keeping the resource return but lowering the base damage. But I think the resource return as-is needs to remain as it does play into what a DK should be able to do in combat, and this type of outlier identity is a good thing for the game and need to happen for all the other classes.

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Do we want to balance for right now, or balance for a planned future on a standard?

Isn't the new DK part of the new dev team's planned future standard? I guess it would be cool if we knew what the devs' standards or vision for regen/sustain in PvP looked like.

hoangdz wrote: »

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

Milking out a little more performance from the existing meta does not sound like something that needs to be nerfed. It sounds inconsequential compared to existing meta problems. You've identified a lot of possibilities in a vacuum, but not where those fit into the meta, no specific build or strat that changes anything, you won't even say it'll have people dropping their animal assassins.

If Corrosive and Onslaught are the real problems, then we're done here, I'd probably agree with you regarding Onslaught because the Acuity effect is already proven degenerate.

Bolded what I care about corrosive, well that’s just a joke and needs to be flattened into the ground asap either the damage needs to go down or the amount of damage you take needs to go up no one should be running around basically an unkillable Demigod if they have an ounce of skill

And onslaught …well enough has been said it needs to loose the pen or loose the crit one or the other though I’m welcome to ideas on either tbh

Could also revert onslaught back to its unique ult return concept instead of being a corrosive gimmicky copy.

Ironically I’d rather see them both axed the counterplay to either of them is either spam dodge roll and hope you don’t have many dots on you or just turn and run if you have the movement speed 🫣😂

the only counterplay is to be 28m away. Last patch i was running an acuity undodgeable unpurgeable dot build and killed people by walking near them.

Northern
hurricane
Blade cloak
Arctic blast
blood mist

Quite literally pop onslaught or corrosive and walk next to people, except now i can drop acuity and northern and slot essence or something like unleashed which crits.

Slotting unleashed on this would make me queue for ic with my movement speed 😂

It was running pale order too, kinda like remaking old batswarm feeling....another ult which just simply became a copy and paste of goliath.

Unfortunately when bat swarm was good it was great then players cried it got nerfed you never saw it again even after the change
This is why I want skills brought up as a whole not nerfed I miss seeing skills kill me that I don’t even usually see I miss the diversity

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Do we want to balance for right now, or balance for a planned future on a standard?

Isn't the new DK part of the new dev team's planned future standard? I guess it would be cool if we knew what the devs' standards or vision for regen/sustain in PvP looked like.

hoangdz wrote: »

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

Milking out a little more performance from the existing meta does not sound like something that needs to be nerfed. It sounds inconsequential compared to existing meta problems. You've identified a lot of possibilities in a vacuum, but not where those fit into the meta, no specific build or strat that changes anything, you won't even say it'll have people dropping their animal assassins.

If Corrosive and Onslaught are the real problems, then we're done here, I'd probably agree with you regarding Onslaught because the Acuity effect is already proven degenerate.

Bolded what I care about corrosive, well that’s just a joke and needs to be flattened into the ground asap either the damage needs to go down or the amount of damage you take needs to go up no one should be running around basically an unkillable Demigod if they have an ounce of skill

And onslaught …well enough has been said it needs to loose the pen or loose the crit one or the other though I’m welcome to ideas on either tbh

Could also revert onslaught back to its unique ult return concept instead of being a corrosive gimmicky copy.

Ironically I’d rather see them both axed the counterplay to either of them is either spam dodge roll and hope you don’t have many dots on you or just turn and run if you have the movement speed 🫣😂

the only counterplay is to be 28m away. Last patch i was running an acuity undodgeable unpurgeable dot build and killed people by walking near them.

Northern
hurricane
Blade cloak
Arctic blast
blood mist

Quite literally pop onslaught or corrosive and walk next to people, except now i can drop acuity and northern and slot essence or something like unleashed which crits.

Slotting unleashed on this would make me queue for ic with my movement speed 😂

It was running pale order too, kinda like remaking old batswarm feeling....another ult which just simply became a copy and paste of goliath.

Unfortunately when bat swarm was good it was great then players cried it got nerfed you never saw it again even after the change
This is why I want skills brought up as a whole not nerfed I miss seeing skills kill me that I don’t even usually see I miss the diversity

somewhere along the lines zos started removing unique mechanics and our skill diversity became "oh but this skill has this major and this one has this major" Which has only lead to the bloated mess we see in the skill system. I mean doesnt one of the other new dk skills give like 3 major/minor buffs while doing a snare while doing a heal while going on your allies....... I remember seeing one that was like 3 or 4 paragraphs of effects.

Old mist form? literally doesnt exist to any capacity now. New mist could have been an entirely new skill in another skill line.

Erm maybe is that the new ash cloud, not many people will use it though think that’s why it’s stacked

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Do we want to balance for right now, or balance for a planned future on a standard?

Isn't the new DK part of the new dev team's planned future standard? I guess it would be cool if we knew what the devs' standards or vision for regen/sustain in PvP looked like.

hoangdz wrote: »

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

Milking out a little more performance from the existing meta does not sound like something that needs to be nerfed. It sounds inconsequential compared to existing meta problems. You've identified a lot of possibilities in a vacuum, but not where those fit into the meta, no specific build or strat that changes anything, you won't even say it'll have people dropping their animal assassins.

If Corrosive and Onslaught are the real problems, then we're done here, I'd probably agree with you regarding Onslaught because the Acuity effect is already proven degenerate.

Bolded what I care about corrosive, well that’s just a joke and needs to be flattened into the ground asap either the damage needs to go down or the amount of damage you take needs to go up no one should be running around basically an unkillable Demigod if they have an ounce of skill

And onslaught …well enough has been said it needs to loose the pen or loose the crit one or the other though I’m welcome to ideas on either tbh

Could also revert onslaught back to its unique ult return concept instead of being a corrosive gimmicky copy.

Ironically I’d rather see them both axed the counterplay to either of them is either spam dodge roll and hope you don’t have many dots on you or just turn and run if you have the movement speed 🫣😂

the only counterplay is to be 28m away. Last patch i was running an acuity undodgeable unpurgeable dot build and killed people by walking near them.

Northern
hurricane
Blade cloak
Arctic blast
blood mist

Quite literally pop onslaught or corrosive and walk next to people, except now i can drop acuity and northern and slot essence or something like unleashed which crits.

Slotting unleashed on this would make me queue for ic with my movement speed 😂

It was running pale order too, kinda like remaking old batswarm feeling....another ult which just simply became a copy and paste of goliath.

Unfortunately when bat swarm was good it was great then players cried it got nerfed you never saw it again even after the change
This is why I want skills brought up as a whole not nerfed I miss seeing skills kill me that I don’t even usually see I miss the diversity

somewhere along the lines zos started removing unique mechanics and our skill diversity became "oh but this skill has this major and this one has this major" Which has only lead to the bloated mess we see in the skill system. I mean doesnt one of the other new dk skills give like 3 major/minor buffs while doing a snare while doing a heal while going on your allies....... I remember seeing one that was like 3 or 4 paragraphs of effects.

Old mist form? literally doesnt exist to any capacity now. New mist could have been an entirely new skill in another skill line.

Erm maybe is that the new ash cloud, not many people will use it though think that’s why it’s stacked

Yeah i think its the ashcloud remake. Just like how do we have one combat team testing vengeance saying skills and skill interactions are overcomplicated and causing performance issues......then a patch later we are seeing stuff like this? Do we just not care about complicated skills anymore? Or are we just digging the hole deeper?

EDIT: damn why is this image so big lol

• Instead of "Restores 45% of your missing Max Magicka and Stamina every 2s over 4s (3 ticks, 15% each)."
• Cost: Free
  • Restores 2000 Magicka and Stamina over 4s every 1s (5 ticks), increased by up to +100% based on missing resources.
  • Removes the annoying back and forth nature of spending/returning magicka to end up at the same point.
  • Flat, 400/s which is buffed up to 800/s based on your missing resources. More reasonable and less exploitable.

1. Cost: 3510 Mag - Determined by Lowest Max Resource.
   • This ensures your main resource actually gets the recovery you want while making your off resource less free and something you have to actually consider.
   • Buff up the initial 2k bonus suggestion to 3k to account for the ability having a cost again.
2. Cost: 1755 Mag and 1755 Stam.
   • Fits the Whip playstyle, both amounts are much lower than the initial fat 3510 so the back and forth nature remains, but is less punishing.
   • Could buff the multiplier from 100% to 150~200% to make what resources your at more intentional

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yep, going to have to agree with Xylena and Decimus and everyone else here basically. I'm also biased but like, the whole premise of this argument only has duels to work with, and dueling stopped being about actual skill and more about just meta building after 2017. DK can have all the permablock sustain in the world and it's still going to get bursted down in 1 gcd when they get stunned through block by literally every single CC ignoring counter-play and being made unblockable so... /shrug emoji. DKs SHOULD be the only outlier for being able to exist on the brink and come back full force with a burst of dire resources, the dev team have encapsulated that lost identity with this refresh, massive win I have to admit to and it gives me hope for the other classes.


You also keep bringing up hardened ward, and as Decimus pointed out, it's a not as good a take as you think it is.


@hoangdz I do think you bring up valid points, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't be opposed to a small nerf like reducing the resource return to 10% down from 15% or keeping the resource return but lowering the base damage. But I think the resource return as-is needs to remain as it does play into what a DK should be able to do in combat, and this type of outlier identity is a good thing for the game and need to happen for all the other classes.

The damage doesn’t need to get worse when he was dueling with it on his normal build it was hitting for 2.5non crits the damage is poor he only hit 6.7k with a crit with 100% from onslaught using the damage morph 😂 and his crit damage is near capped

hoangdz wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I'm just going to ignore the back and forth arguing claiming OP is out to get DK for 10 pages, but can we all ask collectively why something on the PTS can't be critiqued? This is the place for it. Stop worrying about DK being dead on arrival, there are many things that it needs work on, the bones that are there are in a great place. Number tweaking isn't difficult.

Additionally, unless ZOS plans to completely reework set bonuses, food, racials, and potions, it's clear the sustain from 1 ability is overtuned in comparison to pretty much any other build avenue available. I intially thought we need to see other class reworks, and I still do to some degree, but it's not hard to comprehend that the current design is problematic.

Anyway, can we get to suggestions instead of pretending it's perfect.

This is how other sustain tools perform:

• Restoring Focus (918 Stam) = 242/s over 20s (5082)
• Channeled Focus (1080 Mag) = 242/s over 25s (6292)
• Betty (Free) = 192/s over 25s (4992)
• Dark Deal (2700 Mag)= 240/s over 10s + 3600 upfront (6000)
• Dark Conversion (3240 Stam) = 300/2s over 20s + 4500 upfront (7500)
• Siphoning Attacks (4000 HP) = 200x2/s over infinity + 2600x2 on cast (lol)

I'd say HoF is most similar to Dark Deal or Dark Conversion. If those abilities were used once every 4s, they'd provide 4560 - 5100, in addition to healing, Blood Magic, and Minor Berserk. These skills will probably be reworked into being hybrid like Siphoning Attacks and HoF, where the off resource doesn't seem to be apart of the budget, so I'll do the same.

Here's how I'd change it:

• Instead of "Restores 45% of your missing Max Magicka and Stamina every 2s over 4s (3 ticks, 15% each)."
• Cost: Free
  • Restores 2000 Magicka and Stamina every 1s over 4s (5 ticks), increased by up to +100% based on missing resources.
  • Removes the annoying back and forth nature of spending/returning magicka to end up at the same point.
  • Flat, 400/s which is buffed up to 800/s based on your missing resources. More reasonable and less exploitable.

Instead of a free cost, they can play around with the bottom 2 options:

1. Cost: 3510 Mag - Determined by Lowest Max Resource.
   • This ensures your main resource actually gets the recovery you want while making your off resource less free and something you have to actually consider.
   • Buff up the initial 2k bonus suggestion to 3k to account for the ability having a cost again.
2. Cost: 1755 Mag and 1755 Stam.
   • Fits the Whip playstyle, both amounts are much lower than the initial fat 3510 so the back and forth nature remains, but is less punishing.
   • Could buff the multiplier from 100% to 150~200% to make what resources your at more intentional

Idk to me, the 45% of your max does not fit DK at all. The intent of giving back more resources at a lower value is fun because it matches Dragon Blood.. however they recently learned basing something off of missing resources is too polarizing on the top and low end, so they made that a flat value with a bonus. I think that was the right approach here too. DK is not a class I want to build max resources on, it's completely out of place.

I've completely avoided talking about the healing and damage because I don't know the right place for those, but I can say I wish HoF had a higher tooltip or some type of named or unamed buff for 10s to make it more viable for PVE. If the sustain was nerfed a little, I see no reason not too allow the damage to excel a little bit more.

Interesting suggestion on how HoF could be changed, thanks for the input!

Regarding the damage of HoF, the other morph, SoF, deals increased damage which is only slightly less than Fissure’s initial tooltip. From my testings, its maximum damage output in a tanky openworld build falls in the 6-7k range, with room to improve. More investments in damage should increase that max value to 7.5k-8k, with the upper limit of 9-10k being very possible against a squishier target.

Personally, I am not a fan of a delayed burst ability having a strong sustain function. That imo puts it above other sustain skills currently in the game. I would move the sustain to another skill and add some buffs to HoF to compensate for losing the sustain.

• They could make SoF the DPS morph with more damage, but less sustain than HoF.
• They could give SoF a damage done bonus for 10s AFTER it explodes so follow up skills are more powerful, this warrants the GCD, but also makes it so the ability isn't 100% necessary in a static rotation of casting it once every 4s.
• They could make the damage done bonus only to Monsters.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I'm just going to ignore the back and forth arguing claiming OP is out to get DK for 10 pages, but can we all ask collectively why something on the PTS can't be critiqued? This is the place for it. Stop worrying about DK being dead on arrival, there are many things that it needs work on, the bones that are there are in a great place. Number tweaking isn't difficult.

Additionally, unless ZOS plans to completely reework set bonuses, food, racials, and potions, it's clear the sustain from 1 ability is overtuned in comparison to pretty much any other build avenue available. I intially thought we need to see other class reworks, and I still do to some degree, but it's not hard to comprehend that the current design is problematic.

Anyway, can we get to suggestions instead of pretending it's perfect.

This is how other sustain tools perform:

• Restoring Focus (918 Stam) = 242/s over 20s (5082)
• Channeled Focus (1080 Mag) = 242/s over 25s (6292)
• Betty (Free) = 192/s over 25s (4992)
• Dark Deal (2700 Mag)= 240/s over 10s + 3600 upfront (6000)
• Dark Conversion (3240 Stam) = 300/2s over 20s + 4500 upfront (7500)
• Siphoning Attacks (4000 HP) = 200x2/s over infinity + 2600x2 on cast (lol)

I'd say HoF is most similar to Dark Deal or Dark Conversion. If those abilities were used once every 4s, they'd provide 4560 - 5100, in addition to healing, Blood Magic, and Minor Berserk. These skills will probably be reworked into being hybrid like Siphoning Attacks and HoF, where the off resource doesn't seem to be apart of the budget, so I'll do the same. DD can be spammed, HoF can't, but it also deals damage making its opportunity/cost to cast less of a concern. For those reasons, I will use DD over 4s as a reasonable benchmark.

Here's how I'd change it:

• Instead of "Restores 45% of your missing Max Magicka and Stamina every 2s over 4s (3 ticks, 15% each)."
• Cost: Free
  • Restores 2000 Magicka and Stamina over 4s every 1s (5 ticks), increased by up to +100% based on missing resources.
  • Removes the annoying back and forth nature of spending/returning magicka to end up at the same point.
  • Flat, 400/s which is buffed up to 800/s based on your missing resources. More reasonable and less exploitable.

Instead of a free cost, they can play around with the bottom 2 options:

1. Cost: 3510 Mag - Determined by Lowest Max Resource.
   • This ensures your main resource actually gets the recovery you want while making your off resource less free and something you have to actually consider.
   • Buff up the initial 2k bonus suggestion to 3k to account for the ability having a cost again.
2. Cost: 1755 Mag and 1755 Stam.
   • Fits the Whip playstyle, both amounts are much lower than the initial fat 3510 so the back and forth nature remains, but is less punishing.
   • Could buff the multiplier from 100% to 150~200% to make what resources your at more intentional

Idk to me, the 45% of your max does not fit DK at all. The intent of giving back more resources at a lower value is fun because it matches Dragon Blood.. however they recently learned basing something off of missing resources is too polarizing on the top and low end, so they made that a flat value with a bonus. I think that was the right approach here too. DK is not a class I want to build max resources on, it's out of place.

I've completely avoided talking about the healing and damage because I don't know the right place for those, but I can say I wish HoF had a higher tooltip or some type of named or unamed buff for 10s to make it more viable for PVE. If the sustain was nerfed a little, I see no reason not too allow the damage to excel a little bit more.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Yep, going to have to agree with Xylena and Decimus and everyone else here basically. I'm also biased but like, the whole premise of this argument only has duels to work with, and dueling stopped being about actual skill and more about just meta building after 2017. DK can have all the permablock sustain in the world and it's still going to get bursted down in 1 gcd when they get stunned through block by literally every single CC ignoring counter-play and being made unblockable so... /shrug emoji. DKs SHOULD be the only outlier for being able to exist on the brink and come back full force with a burst of dire resources, the dev team have encapsulated that lost identity with this refresh, massive win I have to admit to and it gives me hope for the other classes.


You also keep bringing up hardened ward, and as Decimus pointed out, it's a not as good a take as you think it is.


@hoangdz I do think you bring up valid points, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't be opposed to a small nerf like reducing the resource return to 10% down from 15% or keeping the resource return but lowering the base damage. But I think the resource return as-is needs to remain as it does play into what a DK should be able to do in combat, and this type of outlier identity is a good thing for the game and need to happen for all the other classes.

The damage doesn’t need to get worse when he was dueling with it on his normal build it was hitting for 2.5non crits the damage is poor he only hit 6.7k with a crit with 100% from onslaught using the damage morph 😂 and his crit damage is near capped

You have to keep in mind the person he was fitting to get those hits was likely also running basically identical meta build with over-capped resist and 4k something crit resist.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

@MashmalloMan

I think we should avoid having these constants not based on anything like a flat 1000 x missing resources. Mainly for the fact that we want stats to mean something in the game. Otherwise why not get rid of all stats and just go the vengeance route if none of them matter?

Giving dk a reason for max stats isn't a terrible idea. I'm hoping the same thing happens to sorc and warden. But for max stats to be used again we would need to gut out all the bloated regen zos threw at us with:

• food
• mundus
• jewelry enchants
• major being 30% instead of 20%
• monster 1piece double regens
• Subclassing stacking various sustain
• player speed buffs power creeping undermining sprint costs and the necessity of gap closers
• cp
• etc

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

I saw this and immediately knew it was busted. It should honestly be 5% per tick. I seriously think there might have been a miscommunication about 15% over 4 seconds or 15% each tick over 4 seconds.

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

wilsonwjesse wrote: »

I saw this and immediately knew it was busted. It should honestly be 5% per tick. I seriously think there might have been a miscommunication about 15% over 4 seconds or 15% each tick over 4 seconds.

You also think the 5% fire damage passive should go
You also think the aoe passive damage should go
You also think that engulfing should do frost and shock damage 🤣
Just say you want to see the dragonknight doa already and nerfed into the ground
Otherwise you’ll see the maths anywhere on here done multiple times and see it doesn’t overperform compared to dark deal it performs better lower than 40% resources
now that the pts bug with stam has been fixed additionally maybe play the class before suggesting several nerfs lol