DK's Inhale's sustain change needs to be reverted

Decimus · January 22

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

We're still going? Literally linked an example earlier of how you can do this on Live with Siphoning Attacks while not just tanking one person, but half a BG team... in noCP, without even dropping below 80% Stamina... With 800/900 regens.

What is the point you're trying to make here @hoangdz ? Do I need to dig through VODs and link you a Dark Deal example as well? I have one where I streak from one side of Cyrodiil to the other with a ball group chasing me if you're curious.

Also imagine thinking complaining about Hardened Ward is some kind of a flex.

How is Hardened Ward right now? Oh, right... No one runs it anymore because it's a garbage ability now and the skill line overall is meh.

This is exactly why I always say on my streams ZOS should be careful about what kind of "feedback" they listen to.

You were on a block healer. I am on a DPS build. Your comparison is not the same.

Hardened Ward when first released was utterly broken and I was the first person to create a long thread asking for it to be nerfed. A lot of people were doing what you're doing, arguing against me. Turns out I was right and ZOS eventually nerfed it to the ground. My feedback on abilities have been correct so far.

You're right, it's not the same... Because playing a healer is a lot more resource intensive than playing a normal damage build (block or not), thank you for pointing this out. You could do the same even easier on a block oriented DD build.

You may have picked up on how Hardened Ward was really strong before subclassing, well done. Unfortunately it stopped being strong the second subclassing was introduced (same patch where it was nerfed)... and now it's another dead ability in a game full of unused, dead abilities. And you've moved on to try and create more of them while thinking that's "good feedback".

The funniest thing is that even if old Hardened Ward existed on Live, it wouldn't be meta or considered "overpowered", because people have access to stronger skill lines with their own powerful defensive abilities... Since luckily "feedback" hasn't gotten all of those nerfed yet.

Me picking up on how Hardened Ward overperformed day one of PTS was the key. It was immediately feedback that the playerbase deemed “overreacting”, yet became true when the meta established. It didnt take me months to figure that out. It took 1 day of PTS testing. You dismissing or playing it off doesn’t change the fact that before subclass came out, my prediction was correct. Don’t try to veer off.

The same thing is happening in this thread. I am simply pointing out how Inhale can overperform. Whether the meta catches up or not, time will answer.

I have noticed that your style of arguing is very much bad faith. I don’t know if you do it intentionally or you just don’t realize it, but your responses to my claims have been mostly ad hominem or strawman arguments.

I'm arguing in bad faith? You're laser focused on one good ability in the game while there are so many other "overpowered" abilities in the game.

Where's the same outrage about Merciless Resolve? New Molten Whip (faster travel time, stacking, more tt damage, not reflectable)? Superheated Ward ("old" Hardened Ward basically)? Shalks? Ele sus? Rune? Siphoning Attacks? Vigor?

There's a lot of abilities that do what they do really well in the game, and the answer isn't to nerf all of them to the point of uselessness... Especially ones that are not even in the game yet, unless something is obviously bugged and breaking the game (i.e. Engulfing Dragonfire stacking, which was fixed afaik).

Inhale does not break the game any more so than existing abilities, which I've already proven with what I linked.

The answer to all these "overpowered abilities" is buffing other underperforming abilities in the game and giving more tools for people to compete without subclassing. Which I believe is the whole idea behind the reworks...

You just did it again, using red herring to argue.

Definition: “A red herring is a misleading statement, question, or argument meant to redirect a conversation away from its original topic.”

The discussion is Inhale vs Dark Deal and Siphoning Attacks. Bringing Merciless Resolve or non related abilities into the argument IS misleading and redirecting this conversation away from its original topic. Can you please focus on the topic at hand?

If you want to objectively look at this, you have to ask yourself these questions:

Can Inhale replace other recovery sources?
Can Inhale improve GCD efficiency?
Does Inhale require sacrificing other stats?
Does Inhale perform better than other sustain abilities?

So far my testings have found that Inhale checks all of these questions. This is why I created this thread.

It's called the big picture.

When your focus is solely on nerfing sustain and survivability skills, you end up further buffing the meta of people picking the skill lines with the most damage and calling it a day.

You should reverse your questions to not seem like a biased forum sorc:
Can you replace Inhale with other recovery sources?
Can other recovery abilities improve your GCD efficiency?
Do other sustain abilities require dropping other stats?

I think you already know the answer to those, so why is Inhale a problem here?

"Does Inhale perform better than other sustain abilities?" Is the only relevant question here, and people have been trying to explain it to you for multiple pages now but here we go one more time:
Yes, if you're low resources.

Being low resources when you need to spam streak with a stacking cost modifier?

Not going to end well in outnumbered fights, now Dark Conversion provides more value because you'll be wanting to stay above 50% too have enough streaks for kiting etc.

Siphoning Strikes/Leeching? Again, more sustain if you're staying at high resources... Meaning less risk and same result (infinite sustain with no downside). Don't make me link the video again.

Inhale is good because of the delayed burst and does help a lot with sustain, but is not without downsides.

And even if Inhale "overall" was better than the other forms of sustain... So what? Are we going to pretend that abilities that haven't been touched in years are in a good place in current one shot meta and can't be buffed in future class reworks? That Dark Magic or Siphoning are some S tier open world skill lines compared to Storm Calling or Restoring Light etc?

I know it sucks to have to wait for your class rework, if I had a "main class" it'd probably be nightblade... Which has a whole lot of issues of its own and that rework is next year.

Until then, I find solace in that the dev team has the right approach buffing under-utilized abilities and coming up with unique forms of resource management for the classes.

You can always subclass DK lines until more reworks are done, treat it as Season of the DK until summer, after which it's hopefully Season of the DK/Warden.

MincMincMinc · January 22

Just pointing out again the notion of "something else is broken, so lets not balance anything ever again in the game" is a crazy take.

Guys we can literally numerically compare these skills. Someone at zos calculated out and chose those value. What were their assumptions. We have three unknown assumptions.

What duration or time between casts. Zos likely chose the same duration that they based Darkconvergence on which was around 20s
What stat values did they choose? They could have assumed meta values based on pve,pvp, they probably chose no stat 5 pieces and based it on running triglyphs and food. We can give HOF the benefit of the doubt that you wouldnt build into this and lets assume the rounded down meta stats of 30khp, 16kmag, 22k stam (we can round mag and stam to 19k avg or just combine them to 38k off the bat. So lets assume 30khp and 38k resources.
What missing % should HOF be equivalent to other sustain tools for the expected player. It doesnt make much sense IN combat to be casting above 50% resources except during downtimes so no point comparing either two skills above 50%. Under 25% for resources is getting into the dangerous area where CC break cost may cause you to die.

Dark converge

10khp
4500+3000 - 3240 resource == 4260resources
Combined Heal+resources = 14260

HOF at 50% missing everything

30khp*(1-0.5) *0.15 * 3ticks == 6750
38kresources*(1-0.5) *0.15 * 3ticks - 3370 == 5180resources
Combined heal+resources = 11930

HOF at 25%

30khp*(1-0.25) *0.15 * 3ticks == 10125
38kresources*(1-0.25) *0.15 * 3ticks - 3370 == 9455resources
Combined heal+resources = 19580

So based on our generous assumptions we can see HOF will overperform on a standard build around the 40%-0% mark (40% combined gets to 15k). Again this is very generous in favor of HOF. Likely you would build more max resources increasing your return PvE dps you would likely do the same. In pvp combat dueling, bgs, whatever you almost never wait the full 20s to darkconvergence. Likely you would aim for the 25%-40% range. We are also ignoring the damage for HOF entirely. We are also ignoring the cast time and vulnerable bash window for dark convergence.

IMO bumping up these more active skills would be great. I hope dark converge gets the same treatment. I hope warden gets any sustain mechanic that isnt boring flat guaranteed stats.....but it really hinges on zos to gut out the constant sustain we see like major regen being 30% instead of 20%. Or monster 1 pieces giving double regen. Or wretched giving like 900 regen when it should be equivalent to 450 WD based on the standard. Or jewlery WD enchants now having extra regen, or foods being unbalanced, or regen mundus being vastly more efficient.............etc, etc, etc.

The game would be far better as a whole if sustain wasn't automatic and the majority of player sustain came from the player willfully using actual sustain tools on purpose.

xylena · January 22

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just pointing out again the notion of "something else is broken, so lets not balance anything ever again in the game" is a crazy take.

It is because that's not what's going on. You and HoangWave are looking at skills in a vacuum. This is more like when we spent months screaming at ZOS to address Rushing Agony, the patch comes out and they nerf Way of Fire. You'd get the same impact nerfing Heart of Flame (nothing).

And even if HOF is busted, what would even change? Nothing. Players go from having infinite resources to... having infinite resources. Who cares. Nobody is rage quitting over Heart of Flame, they're rage quitting over Null Arca, Rushing Agony, subclass combos, permablock, etc.

BardokRedSnow · January 22

When I agree with everything Xylena is saying, thats when you know something is up lol.

Nerfing this skill will only serve to go against the whole point of the refresh which is bring DK up to par with subclassed builds, and even with this skill exaggerated in effectiveness that will not happen. As was said the meta has too many ways to give infinite sustain and it seems thats not going away, so even if this was the case the only thing that nerfing this skill would do is force dks to continue to subclass into animal companion and use wretched vitality or roksa.

Its also especially pointless when we know the other classes are also getting refreshed. Why would they nerf the skill when they're only going to buff warden, then sorc and so on right after.

Make it make sense.

BardokRedSnow · January 22

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just pointing out again the notion of "something else is broken, so lets not balance anything ever again in the game" is a crazy take.

Its only crazy if DK was being buffed alone. If that were the case I'd agree but it isn't. If other builds are already broken, raising the power level as we discussed is a viable way to balance it and is clearly their intent from their letter about it.

Its like when they raised everyone's damage from the initial base, before they did that orc had a huge advantage over other DKs because of it. Raising up everyone's damage percentage wise decreased that advantage overall despite orcs still having more wd technically because of the passive. Its the same with this sustain and this class, no matter what wardens and people subclassing will always have more sustain than someone without animal companion. All this skill does is even the playing field for people that dont want to subclass.

Unless warden's animal companion skill line gets nerfed, or siphoning gets nerfed, there's no reason to be discussing nerfing HoF. Even with damage taken into consideration and all that, animal companion has built in healing greater than HoF, and a cleanse, and also multiple damage buffs in the skill line to boot. Its a crazy overstacked skill line compared to HoFs, especially the free cleanse.

MincMincMinc · January 22

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just pointing out again the notion of "something else is broken, so lets not balance anything ever again in the game" is a crazy take.

It is because that's not what's going on. You and HoangWave are looking at skills in a vacuum. This is more like when we spent months screaming at ZOS to address Rushing Agony, the patch comes out and they nerf Way of Fire. You'd get the same impact nerfing Heart of Flame (nothing).

And even if HOF is busted, what would even change? Nothing. Players go from having infinite resources to... having infinite resources. Who cares. Nobody is rage quitting over Heart of Flame, they're rage quitting over Null Arca, Rushing Agony, subclass combos, permablock, etc.

I say you have to, before subclassing we HAD to put an entire class into perspective summing up all 3 lines then comparing. Now with subclassing we can split down to individual skill lines to compare, however at the end of the day we are trading a skill slot worth vs another skill slot worth.

Again i agree with you on those painpoints, but their existence doesn't negate the fact we should look at new releases and question them. (funny you listed permablocking as something we should care about.....but HOF will drastically play into permablock builds and you say we shouldnt care about it)

Do we want to look into the passives? I can find a screenshot of the passive Im sure. Otherwise I can just let yall go back to arguing with your feelings. I really dont care if it gets nerfed or buffed. Nerfed ill be happy we dont see more permablockers. Buffed ill be happy we may see people play the game more actively instead of sitting on a mountain of automatic regen playing the game for you.

MincMincMinc · January 22

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just pointing out again the notion of "something else is broken, so lets not balance anything ever again in the game" is a crazy take.

Its only crazy if DK was being buffed alone. If that were the case I'd agree but it isn't. If other builds are already broken, raising the power level as we discussed is a viable way to balance it and is clearly their intent from their letter about it.

Its like when they raised everyone's damage from the initial base, before they did that orc had a huge advantage over other DKs because of it. Raising up everyone's damage percentage wise decreased that advantage overall despite orcs still having more wd technically because of the passive. Its the same with this sustain and this class, no matter what wardens and people subclassing will always have more sustain than someone without animal companion. All this skill does is even the playing field for people that dont want to subclass.

Unless warden's animal companion skill line gets nerfed, or siphoning gets nerfed, there's no reason to be discussing nerfing HoF. Even with damage taken into consideration and all that, animal companion has built in healing greater than HoF, and a cleanse, and also multiple damage buffs in the skill line to boot. Its a crazy overstacked skill line compared to HoFs, especially the free cleanse.

Sadly its going to be 3 years or more before we see the end of this. I'm just going under the assumption that zos released subclassing before doing reworks to see what issues arrise. IMO as a company its just a huge gamble whether you can pull it off before too many players leave due to 4 years of imbalance.

Otherwise it was crazy to think it was ever going to work unrestricted while we had things like 90% of nightblades damage was on one skill line. I had said it numerous times during subclassing pts that zos would need to rebalance all the skill lines 1:1 on their own. Things like the class wide crux or corpse system would never function as they were intended and will just turn into one off gimmicks.

Decimus · January 22

MincMincMinc wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just pointing out again the notion of "something else is broken, so lets not balance anything ever again in the game" is a crazy take.

It is because that's not what's going on. You and HoangWave are looking at skills in a vacuum. This is more like when we spent months screaming at ZOS to address Rushing Agony, the patch comes out and they nerf Way of Fire. You'd get the same impact nerfing Heart of Flame (nothing).

And even if HOF is busted, what would even change? Nothing. Players go from having infinite resources to... having infinite resources. Who cares. Nobody is rage quitting over Heart of Flame, they're rage quitting over Null Arca, Rushing Agony, subclass combos, permablock, etc.

I say you have to, before subclassing we HAD to put an entire class into perspective summing up all 3 lines then comparing. Now with subclassing we can split down to individual skill lines to compare, however at the end of the day we are trading a skill slot worth vs another skill slot worth.

Again i agree with you on those painpoints, but their existence doesn't negate the fact we should look at new releases and question them. (funny you listed permablocking as something we should care about.....but HOF will drastically play into permablock builds and you say we shouldnt care about it)

Do we want to look into the passives? I can find a screenshot of the passive Im sure. Otherwise I can just let yall go back to arguing with your feelings. I really dont care if it gets nerfed or buffed. Nerfed ill be happy we dont see more permablockers. Buffed ill be happy we may see people play the game more actively instead of sitting on a mountain of automatic regen playing the game for you.

You can permablock with HoF or you can permablock without it (Siphoning Attacks, Dark Deal+Light Weaver etc... or just Netch+Rune and full send damage with those skill slots you'd spend on sustain abilities).

It's just a question of do you want to force dragonknights to subclass in order to have enough sustain, or encourage playing pure class.

Of all the things in the game, this is not the thing to complain about... in this same patch Dragonknight gets: strongest burst skill, strongest damage shield, strongest snare/root removal, arguably strongest burst heal (GDB/Coag, but Polar Wind/Shrewd & Healthy Offerings are strong contenders), yet strongest DK builds on PTS for dueling atleast still subclass into Aedric Spear and Storm Calling or Animal Companions.

Rather than calling for nerfs for how DK is right now, we should be finding ways to buff it further or somehow rein in the full damage meta with Crit Resistance passives etc... otherwise it'll be another subclassing patch for DKs as well in a lot of the content.

xylena · January 22

MincMincMinc wrote: »

but HOF will drastically play into permablock builds and you say we shouldnt care about it

Permablock is a problem with or without HOF, so no, we shouldn't care about HOF, because nerfing HOF will do nothing other than nerf pure DK specs. Permablock will still reign.

MincMincMinc · January 22

Decimus wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just pointing out again the notion of "something else is broken, so lets not balance anything ever again in the game" is a crazy take.

It is because that's not what's going on. You and HoangWave are looking at skills in a vacuum. This is more like when we spent months screaming at ZOS to address Rushing Agony, the patch comes out and they nerf Way of Fire. You'd get the same impact nerfing Heart of Flame (nothing).

And even if HOF is busted, what would even change? Nothing. Players go from having infinite resources to... having infinite resources. Who cares. Nobody is rage quitting over Heart of Flame, they're rage quitting over Null Arca, Rushing Agony, subclass combos, permablock, etc.

I say you have to, before subclassing we HAD to put an entire class into perspective summing up all 3 lines then comparing. Now with subclassing we can split down to individual skill lines to compare, however at the end of the day we are trading a skill slot worth vs another skill slot worth.

Again i agree with you on those painpoints, but their existence doesn't negate the fact we should look at new releases and question them. (funny you listed permablocking as something we should care about.....but HOF will drastically play into permablock builds and you say we shouldnt care about it)

Do we want to look into the passives? I can find a screenshot of the passive Im sure. Otherwise I can just let yall go back to arguing with your feelings. I really dont care if it gets nerfed or buffed. Nerfed ill be happy we dont see more permablockers. Buffed ill be happy we may see people play the game more actively instead of sitting on a mountain of automatic regen playing the game for you.

You can permablock with HoF or you can permablock without it (Siphoning Attacks, Dark Deal+Light Weaver etc... or just Netch+Rune and full send damage with those skill slots you'd spend on sustain abilities).

It's just a question of do you want to force dragonknights to subclass in order to have enough sustain, or encourage playing pure class.

Of all the things in the game, this is not the thing to complain about... in this same patch Dragonknight gets: strongest burst skill, strongest damage shield, strongest snare/root removal, arguably strongest burst heal (GDB/Coag, but Polar Wind/Shrewd & Healthy Offerings are strong contenders), yet strongest DK builds on PTS for dueling atleast still subclass into Aedric Spear and Storm Calling or Animal Companions.

Rather than calling for nerfs for how DK is right now, we should be finding ways to buff it further or somehow rein in the full damage meta with Crit Resistance passives etc... otherwise it'll be another subclassing patch for DKs as well in a lot of the content.

Again like I said HOF as it is can be fine, its far better for the game if sustain is active instead of automatic. Players haven't thought about sustain since like clockwork. I think the prisoners meta was the last time I even cared about active sustain if you even call prisoners active.

If you actually did out the math or cared to look at mine HOF is near 1:1 with dark convergence on a standard build for an average pug player. Good players will get far more out of the skill and I think thats good to have skillcap back in sustain. The only caveat is it opens braindead permablock doorways to an insane degree. Personally I have permablock builds that have survived minutes against neopia level groups almost wiping them so IDC either way. I just see people saying how we shouldnt nerf something that will enable permablocking.....then they say in the next sentence that zos should focus on nerfing permablocking, but you guys spending 10 forum pages trying to argue off of feelings is silly. Either stick to the feelings argument and be at peace that people will disagree, or go hard into only showing the math as best we can.

xylena · January 22

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Either stick to the feelings argument and be at peace that people will disagree, or go hard into only showing the math as best we can.

Feelings Argument vs Spreadsheet Warriors! /s

Evaluating game elements in context of the meta is hard, but that's where your answers are. What meta strats want Inhale over what they're doing now? What would Inhale replace? Does it enable new broken strats, or is it just another way to do the same thing we've been doing?

As a delayed damage skill, its main competition is Shalks, which doesn't give you nigh infinite sustain, but the line it's subclassed with does, with Netch and the 20% regen passive. I don't think this thread has evaluated Ardent Flame vs Animal Companions yet, maybe it should.

MincMincMinc · January 22

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

but HOF will drastically play into permablock builds and you say we shouldnt care about it

Permablock is a problem with or without HOF, so no, we shouldn't care about HOF, because nerfing HOF will do nothing other than nerf pure DK specs. Permablock will still reign.

Permablocking has always been a problem due to sustain enabling it. Like i pointed out 5 pages ago. Early on 1 person could shut down a permablocker because block cost was every 1/8s not every 1/4s So you could be charged far more often. At the same time most effects didnt bypass block, so more ticks would cost the permablocker more often. A good dot player would tear through permablockers.

Again I think HOF is fine, but we would have to be fine accepting that it will overperform as is if anyone knows what they are doing.

Now adays to even begin addressing permablocking I dont think the servers can handle higher tickrates like that. First step is to simply get rid of the jewelry block cost reduction. Wait a patch and go from there...............We did hear zos say they are looking into it, so I imagine we will see some battlespirit rule like a ramping block cost.

xylena · January 22

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Again I think HOF is fine, but we would have to be fine accepting that it will overperform as is if anyone knows what they are doing.

Perform over what?

Are meta builds gonna drop Netch and Animals to subclass HOF and Ardent?

Would that necessarily be a bad thing? HOF isn't intruding on some pristine playground, it's competing with a hell meta of subclass proc set combos and already infinite sustain.

hoangdz · January 22

xylena wrote: »

So you looked at all the things wrong with the game, and concluded that New Inhale is the worst offender? Seriously, what do you think is going to be "worse" than it is now?

When did I say Inhale is the worst offender? I literally said Corrosive and Onslaught are their own issues, and those will be saved for another thread. You have put my words in my mouth twice already. Can we please stop with this?

xylena wrote: »

Players already run around with infinite resources one shotting people with proc set combos.

They are still sacrificing some stats to get infinite resources. I have demonstrated that you don't need to sacrifice anything other than slotting Inhale, which also happens to give you a decent delayed burst. This is a core distinction you need to understand. I have explained it several times in my previous comments.

xylena wrote: »

I think your argument is "valid" when you specifically say that it returns too much at low resources on high pool builds, but the crusade seems biased. You know damn well sustain is already nigh infinite so why not crusade to nerf undercosted blocking, or Netch, or Templar Rune, etc.

Again, sustain is nigh infinite, but you are also running Sustained by Suffering CP, Orzoga, and Tri Pots. You literally DO NOT need all of that with Inhale. Inhale on its own is giving sustain comparable to several passives and buffs combined. I have provided a video above where I removed 90% of sustain sources in the game and still doing fine off 1 skill. You CANNOT do that for any sustain skill on live, period. This is a fact, and I'm willing to die on this hill.

This alone allows people to forgo recovery completely and build insane amounts of stats. I am willing to provide a detailed explanation below if you don't believe this point.

xylena wrote: »

Like if Netch is so strong that you can afford to run redundant major buffs and still 1vX with unoptimized bars, that sounds "overpowered" to me. I don't see Inhale affecting your open world experience, you'll still 1vX bads, you'll still stalemate the other 37k hp tryhards.

I can guarantee you right now that Inhale on PTS sustains as well as Netch + Rune + Dark Deal combined. Yes, It has THAT MUCH sustain potential, and I am willing to die on this hill too.

BardokRedSnow · January 22

MincMincMinc wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just pointing out again the notion of "something else is broken, so lets not balance anything ever again in the game" is a crazy take.

Its only crazy if DK was being buffed alone. If that were the case I'd agree but it isn't. If other builds are already broken, raising the power level as we discussed is a viable way to balance it and is clearly their intent from their letter about it.

Its like when they raised everyone's damage from the initial base, before they did that orc had a huge advantage over other DKs because of it. Raising up everyone's damage percentage wise decreased that advantage overall despite orcs still having more wd technically because of the passive. Its the same with this sustain and this class, no matter what wardens and people subclassing will always have more sustain than someone without animal companion. All this skill does is even the playing field for people that dont want to subclass.

Unless warden's animal companion skill line gets nerfed, or siphoning gets nerfed, there's no reason to be discussing nerfing HoF. Even with damage taken into consideration and all that, animal companion has built in healing greater than HoF, and a cleanse, and also multiple damage buffs in the skill line to boot. Its a crazy overstacked skill line compared to HoFs, especially the free cleanse.

Sadly its going to be 3 years or more before we see the end of this. I'm just going under the assumption that zos released subclassing before doing reworks to see what issues arrise. IMO as a company its just a huge gamble whether you can pull it off before too many players leave due to 4 years of imbalance.

Otherwise it was crazy to think it was ever going to work unrestricted while we had things like 90% of nightblades damage was on one skill line. I had said it numerous times during subclassing pts that zos would need to rebalance all the skill lines 1:1 on their own. Things like the class wide crux or corpse system would never function as they were intended and will just turn into one off gimmicks.

I think their gamble is based on the idea that people who are playing classes not balanced could subclass until it was, which I agree isn't a perfect solution, but then again there really isn't a realistic perfect solution here.

Easy for me to say maybe as a DK fan. But I also believe that DK has been far from S tier or A tier for a long time, B+ at best besides a few brief moments. I don't think DK will be the thing to push people away. Warden and Sorc however have been strong for a long, long time. The chance for potential broken states imo is far greater there. And both are next on the refreshing block.

MincMincMinc · January 22

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Again I think HOF is fine, but we would have to be fine accepting that it will overperform as is if anyone knows what they are doing.

Perform over what?

Are meta builds gonna drop Netch and Animals to subclass HOF and Ardent?

Would that necessarily be a bad thing? HOF isn't intruding on some pristine playground, it's competing with a hell meta of subclass proc set combos and already infinite sustain.

Do we want to balance for right now, or balance for a planned future on a standard? Sure right now the game is a mess, should we design with the intent of keeping that mess going or a new planned future? Pick a standard expected outcome skill and where does HOF land. As of now given gracious assumptions it is equivalent to DarkConvergence and netch around 40% resources(60%missing).

Or we can just say send it and see what happens, cuz anything is better than everyone having free constant sustain. At this point we would be better off making a constant sustain thread to point this out to zos in particular.

xylena · January 22

hoangdz wrote: »

This alone allows people to forgo recovery completely and build insane amounts of stats. I am willing to provide a detailed explanation below if you don't believe this point.

Okay so what actually happens to the meta in this scenario? Are players dropping their animal assassins for aedric inhalers? Is that even a bad thing? What are they doing with those insane stats when they already have infinite sustain and one shots? Double infinity? Zero shots?

hoangdz · January 22

xylena wrote: »

Evaluating game elements in context of the meta is hard, but that's where your answers are. What meta strats want Inhale over what they're doing now?

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

xylena wrote: »

What would Inhale replace? Does it enable new broken strats, or is it just another way to do the same thing we've been doing?

It depends on whether Corrosive and Onslaught makes it to live or not.

xylena wrote: »

As a delayed damage skill, its main competition is Shalks, which doesn't give you nigh infinite sustain, but the line it's subclassed with does, with Netch and the 20% regen passive. I don't think this thread has evaluated Ardent Flame vs Animal Companions yet, maybe it should.

Well, doing that just off the skills alone won't paint the full picture because Inhale allows you to do things that won't show up on the skill lines. But I'll entertain this view and do it for you:

AC skills:

So we get:
- AoE delayed burst
- AoE Major + Minor Breach
- 353 mag or stam recovery that goes through block
- Major Brutality/Sorcery
- 6s Major Expedition
- 4s snare/root immunity + cleanse
- Minor Evasion when slotted
- 1560 heal everytime you recast an AC ability or when it ends
- 4 ult every 8s, or 0.5 ult/s
- 20% stam and mag recovery
- 5% crit damage per AC ability slotted

AF skills:

So we get:
- Spammable that can function as a burst ability (Whip stacks)
- 300 weapon damage at 3 stacks
- 2 AoE delayed bursts
- God tier sustain
- AoE HoT that ticks every second for dirt cheap cost
- Minor Heroism
- Major Protection
- Major Prophecy/Savagery
- Increased chance to apply burning
- 30% snare when hit by a direct damage AF ability
- Increased chance to apply Burning
- 225 stam/mag recovery when Burning procs, 1s cooldown
- 8% healing taken

These are just the stuff you can see. Inhale also allows you to ignore building recovery completely, so you will be able to:
- Drop Sustained by Suffering CP for another red CP
- Use Sugar Skulls instead of Orzoga
- Use non-tri pots

As I see it, AF having 2 AoE delayed bursts with a strong AoE HoT that can stack will allow for groups to stack these skills together. AF is going to be very strong in group play.

xylena · January 22

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Do we want to balance for right now, or balance for a planned future on a standard?

Isn't the new DK part of the new dev team's planned future standard? I guess it would be cool if we knew what the devs' standards or vision for regen/sustain in PvP looked like.

hoangdz wrote: »

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

Milking out a little more performance from the existing meta does not sound like something that needs to be nerfed. It sounds inconsequential compared to existing meta problems. You've identified a lot of possibilities in a vacuum, but not where those fit into the meta, no specific build or strat that changes anything, you won't even say it'll have people dropping their animal assassins.

If Corrosive and Onslaught are the real problems, then we're done here, I'd probably agree with you regarding Onslaught because the Acuity effect is already proven degenerate.

MincMincMinc · January 22

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Do we want to balance for right now, or balance for a planned future on a standard?

Isn't the new DK part of the new dev team's planned future standard? I guess it would be cool if we knew what the devs' standards or vision for regen/sustain in PvP looked like.

hoangdz wrote: »

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

Milking out a little more performance from the existing meta does not sound like something that needs to be nerfed. It sounds inconsequential compared to existing meta problems. You've identified a lot of possibilities in a vacuum, but not where those fit into the meta, no specific build or strat that changes anything.

Well thats why i focused on seeing how zos could have got to those numbers. Which is why my math showed based on another standard easy to calc sustain skill HOF was equivalent.

MXVIIDREAM · January 22

Decimus wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just pointing out again the notion of "something else is broken, so lets not balance anything ever again in the game" is a crazy take.

It is because that's not what's going on. You and HoangWave are looking at skills in a vacuum. This is more like when we spent months screaming at ZOS to address Rushing Agony, the patch comes out and they nerf Way of Fire. You'd get the same impact nerfing Heart of Flame (nothing).

And even if HOF is busted, what would even change? Nothing. Players go from having infinite resources to... having infinite resources. Who cares. Nobody is rage quitting over Heart of Flame, they're rage quitting over Null Arca, Rushing Agony, subclass combos, permablock, etc.

I say you have to, before subclassing we HAD to put an entire class into perspective summing up all 3 lines then comparing. Now with subclassing we can split down to individual skill lines to compare, however at the end of the day we are trading a skill slot worth vs another skill slot worth.

Again i agree with you on those painpoints, but their existence doesn't negate the fact we should look at new releases and question them. (funny you listed permablocking as something we should care about.....but HOF will drastically play into permablock builds and you say we shouldnt care about it)

Do we want to look into the passives? I can find a screenshot of the passive Im sure. Otherwise I can just let yall go back to arguing with your feelings. I really dont care if it gets nerfed or buffed. Nerfed ill be happy we dont see more permablockers. Buffed ill be happy we may see people play the game more actively instead of sitting on a mountain of automatic regen playing the game for you.

You can permablock with HoF or you can permablock without it (Siphoning Attacks, Dark Deal+Light Weaver etc... or just Netch+Rune and full send damage with those skill slots you'd spend on sustain abilities).

It's just a question of do you want to force dragonknights to subclass in order to have enough sustain, or encourage playing pure class.

Of all the things in the game, this is not the thing to complain about... in this same patch Dragonknight gets: strongest burst skill, strongest damage shield, strongest snare/root removal, arguably strongest burst heal (GDB/Coag, but Polar Wind/Shrewd & Healthy Offerings are strong contenders), yet strongest DK builds on PTS for dueling atleast still subclass into Aedric Spear and Storm Calling or Animal Companions.

Rather than calling for nerfs for how DK is right now, we should be finding ways to buff it further or somehow rein in the full damage meta with Crit Resistance passives etc... otherwise it'll be another subclassing patch for DKs as well in a lot of the content.

Bolded my favorite part of this and highlight what this refresh is all about

MXVIIDREAM · January 22

hoangdz wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Evaluating game elements in context of the meta is hard, but that's where your answers are. What meta strats want Inhale over what they're doing now?

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

xylena wrote: »

What would Inhale replace? Does it enable new broken strats, or is it just another way to do the same thing we've been doing?

It depends on whether Corrosive and Onslaught makes it to live or not.

xylena wrote: »

As a delayed damage skill, its main competition is Shalks, which doesn't give you nigh infinite sustain, but the line it's subclassed with does, with Netch and the 20% regen passive. I don't think this thread has evaluated Ardent Flame vs Animal Companions yet, maybe it should.

Well, doing that just off the skills alone won't paint the full picture because Inhale allows you to do things that won't show up on the skill lines. But I'll entertain this view and do it for you:

AC skills:

So we get:
- AoE delayed burst
- AoE Major + Minor Breach
- 353 mag or stam recovery that goes through block
- Major Brutality/Sorcery
- 6s Major Expedition
- 4s snare/root immunity + cleanse
- Minor Evasion when slotted
- 1560 heal everytime you recast an AC ability or when it ends
- 4 ult every 8s, or 0.5 ult/s
- 20% stam and mag recovery
- 5% crit damage per AC ability slotted

AF skills:

So we get:
- Spammable that can function as a burst ability (Whip stacks)
- 300 weapon damage at 3 stacks
- 2 AoE delayed bursts
- God tier sustain
- AoE HoT that ticks every second for dirt cheap cost
- Minor Heroism
- Major Protection
- Major Prophecy/Savagery
- Increased chance to apply burning
- 30% snare when hit by a direct damage AF ability
- Increased chance to apply Burning
- 225 stam/mag recovery when Burning procs, 1s cooldown
- 8% healing taken

These are just the stuff you can see. Inhale also allows you to ignore building recovery completely, so you will be able to:
- Drop Sustained by Suffering CP for another red CP
- Use Sugar Skulls instead of Orzoga
- Use non-tri pots

As I see it, AF having 2 AoE delayed bursts with a strong AoE HoT that can stack will allow for groups to stack these skills together. AF is going to be very strong in group play.

Not sure why but you’ve only listed 3 ac skills

Should also include

Swarm icon Swarm
Unleash a swarm of fetcherflies to relentlessly attack an enemy, dealing 4631 Magic Damage over 20 seconds. The fetcherflies rip through the enemy's flesh, afflicting them with Minor Vulnerability for the duration, increasing their damage taken by 5%.

So access to high bleed on morphs and vulnerability

hit.
arrow
Screaming Cliff Racer icon
Screaming Cliff Racer
Command a cliff racer to dive bomb an enemy, dealing 2160 Magic Damage. If you are more than 7 meters away from the target, you set them Off Balance for 7 seconds. After dealing damage you increase your Weapon and Spell Damage by 100 for 10 seconds, which quadruples after damaging Off Balance enemies.

Access to off balance and high weapon and spell damage

Now if you didn’t include them because really no one uses them in PvP then you should remove half the ones from ardent flame aswell because no one’s going to use half of them either

No bias just a point

MXVIIDREAM · January 22

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Do we want to balance for right now, or balance for a planned future on a standard?

Isn't the new DK part of the new dev team's planned future standard? I guess it would be cool if we knew what the devs' standards or vision for regen/sustain in PvP looked like.

hoangdz wrote: »

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

Milking out a little more performance from the existing meta does not sound like something that needs to be nerfed. It sounds inconsequential compared to existing meta problems. You've identified a lot of possibilities in a vacuum, but not where those fit into the meta, no specific build or strat that changes anything, you won't even say it'll have people dropping their animal assassins.

If Corrosive and Onslaught are the real problems, then we're done here, I'd probably agree with you regarding Onslaught because the Acuity effect is already proven degenerate.

Bolded what I care about corrosive, well that’s just a joke and needs to be flattened into the ground asap either the damage needs to go down or the amount of damage you take needs to go up no one should be running around basically an unkillable Demigod if they have an ounce of skill

And onslaught …well enough has been said it needs to loose the pen or loose the crit one or the other though I’m welcome to ideas on either tbh

MincMincMinc · January 22

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Do we want to balance for right now, or balance for a planned future on a standard?

Isn't the new DK part of the new dev team's planned future standard? I guess it would be cool if we knew what the devs' standards or vision for regen/sustain in PvP looked like.

hoangdz wrote: »

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

Milking out a little more performance from the existing meta does not sound like something that needs to be nerfed. It sounds inconsequential compared to existing meta problems. You've identified a lot of possibilities in a vacuum, but not where those fit into the meta, no specific build or strat that changes anything, you won't even say it'll have people dropping their animal assassins.

If Corrosive and Onslaught are the real problems, then we're done here, I'd probably agree with you regarding Onslaught because the Acuity effect is already proven degenerate.

Bolded what I care about corrosive, well that’s just a joke and needs to be flattened into the ground asap either the damage needs to go down or the amount of damage you take needs to go up no one should be running around basically an unkillable Demigod if they have an ounce of skill

And onslaught …well enough has been said it needs to loose the pen or loose the crit one or the other though I’m welcome to ideas on either tbh

Could also revert onslaught back to its unique ult return concept instead of being a corrosive gimmicky copy.

MXVIIDREAM · January 22

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Do we want to balance for right now, or balance for a planned future on a standard?

Isn't the new DK part of the new dev team's planned future standard? I guess it would be cool if we knew what the devs' standards or vision for regen/sustain in PvP looked like.

hoangdz wrote: »

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

Milking out a little more performance from the existing meta does not sound like something that needs to be nerfed. It sounds inconsequential compared to existing meta problems. You've identified a lot of possibilities in a vacuum, but not where those fit into the meta, no specific build or strat that changes anything, you won't even say it'll have people dropping their animal assassins.

If Corrosive and Onslaught are the real problems, then we're done here, I'd probably agree with you regarding Onslaught because the Acuity effect is already proven degenerate.

Bolded what I care about corrosive, well that’s just a joke and needs to be flattened into the ground asap either the damage needs to go down or the amount of damage you take needs to go up no one should be running around basically an unkillable Demigod if they have an ounce of skill

And onslaught …well enough has been said it needs to loose the pen or loose the crit one or the other though I’m welcome to ideas on either tbh

Could also revert onslaught back to its unique ult return concept instead of being a corrosive gimmicky copy.

Ironically I’d rather see them both axed the counterplay to either of them is either spam dodge roll and hope you don’t have many dots on you or just turn and run if you have the movement speed 🫣😂

MincMincMinc · January 22

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Do we want to balance for right now, or balance for a planned future on a standard?

Isn't the new DK part of the new dev team's planned future standard? I guess it would be cool if we knew what the devs' standards or vision for regen/sustain in PvP looked like.

hoangdz wrote: »

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

Milking out a little more performance from the existing meta does not sound like something that needs to be nerfed. It sounds inconsequential compared to existing meta problems. You've identified a lot of possibilities in a vacuum, but not where those fit into the meta, no specific build or strat that changes anything, you won't even say it'll have people dropping their animal assassins.

If Corrosive and Onslaught are the real problems, then we're done here, I'd probably agree with you regarding Onslaught because the Acuity effect is already proven degenerate.

Bolded what I care about corrosive, well that’s just a joke and needs to be flattened into the ground asap either the damage needs to go down or the amount of damage you take needs to go up no one should be running around basically an unkillable Demigod if they have an ounce of skill

And onslaught …well enough has been said it needs to loose the pen or loose the crit one or the other though I’m welcome to ideas on either tbh

Could also revert onslaught back to its unique ult return concept instead of being a corrosive gimmicky copy.

Ironically I’d rather see them both axed the counterplay to either of them is either spam dodge roll and hope you don’t have many dots on you or just turn and run if you have the movement speed 🫣😂

the only counterplay is to be 28m away. Last patch i was running an acuity undodgeable unpurgeable dot build and killed people by walking near them.

Northern
hurricane
Blade cloak
Arctic blast
blood mist

Quite literally pop onslaught or corrosive and walk next to people, except now i can drop acuity and northern and slot essence or something like unleashed which crits.

MXVIIDREAM · January 22

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Do we want to balance for right now, or balance for a planned future on a standard?

Isn't the new DK part of the new dev team's planned future standard? I guess it would be cool if we knew what the devs' standards or vision for regen/sustain in PvP looked like.

hoangdz wrote: »

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

Milking out a little more performance from the existing meta does not sound like something that needs to be nerfed. It sounds inconsequential compared to existing meta problems. You've identified a lot of possibilities in a vacuum, but not where those fit into the meta, no specific build or strat that changes anything, you won't even say it'll have people dropping their animal assassins.

If Corrosive and Onslaught are the real problems, then we're done here, I'd probably agree with you regarding Onslaught because the Acuity effect is already proven degenerate.

Bolded what I care about corrosive, well that’s just a joke and needs to be flattened into the ground asap either the damage needs to go down or the amount of damage you take needs to go up no one should be running around basically an unkillable Demigod if they have an ounce of skill

And onslaught …well enough has been said it needs to loose the pen or loose the crit one or the other though I’m welcome to ideas on either tbh

Could also revert onslaught back to its unique ult return concept instead of being a corrosive gimmicky copy.

Ironically I’d rather see them both axed the counterplay to either of them is either spam dodge roll and hope you don’t have many dots on you or just turn and run if you have the movement speed 🫣😂

the only counterplay is to be 28m away. Last patch i was running an acuity undodgeable unpurgeable dot build and killed people by walking near them.

Northern
hurricane
Blade cloak
Arctic blast
blood mist

Quite literally pop onslaught or corrosive and walk next to people, except now i can drop acuity and northern and slot essence or something like unleashed which crits.

Slotting unleashed on this would make me queue for ic with my movement speed 😂

MincMincMinc · January 22

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Do we want to balance for right now, or balance for a planned future on a standard?

Isn't the new DK part of the new dev team's planned future standard? I guess it would be cool if we knew what the devs' standards or vision for regen/sustain in PvP looked like.

hoangdz wrote: »

Builds that want to milk out more damage and tankiness without sacrificing sustain.

Milking out a little more performance from the existing meta does not sound like something that needs to be nerfed. It sounds inconsequential compared to existing meta problems. You've identified a lot of possibilities in a vacuum, but not where those fit into the meta, no specific build or strat that changes anything, you won't even say it'll have people dropping their animal assassins.

If Corrosive and Onslaught are the real problems, then we're done here, I'd probably agree with you regarding Onslaught because the Acuity effect is already proven degenerate.

Bolded what I care about corrosive, well that’s just a joke and needs to be flattened into the ground asap either the damage needs to go down or the amount of damage you take needs to go up no one should be running around basically an unkillable Demigod if they have an ounce of skill

And onslaught …well enough has been said it needs to loose the pen or loose the crit one or the other though I’m welcome to ideas on either tbh

Could also revert onslaught back to its unique ult return concept instead of being a corrosive gimmicky copy.

Ironically I’d rather see them both axed the counterplay to either of them is either spam dodge roll and hope you don’t have many dots on you or just turn and run if you have the movement speed 🫣😂

the only counterplay is to be 28m away. Last patch i was running an acuity undodgeable unpurgeable dot build and killed people by walking near them.

Northern
hurricane
Blade cloak
Arctic blast
blood mist

Quite literally pop onslaught or corrosive and walk next to people, except now i can drop acuity and northern and slot essence or something like unleashed which crits.

Slotting unleashed on this would make me queue for ic with my movement speed 😂

It was running pale order too, kinda like remaking old batswarm feeling....another ult which just simply became a copy and paste of goliath.

Lord_Hev · January 22

Yep, going to have to agree with Xylena and Decimus and everyone else here basically. I'm also biased but like, the whole premise of this argument only has duels to work with, and dueling stopped being about actual skill and more about just meta building after 2017. DK can have all the permablock sustain in the world and it's still going to get bursted down in 1 gcd when they get stunned through block by literally every single CC ignoring counter-play and being made unblockable so... /shrug emoji. DKs SHOULD be the only outlier for being able to exist on the brink and come back full force with a burst of dire resources, the dev team have encapsulated that lost identity with this refresh, massive win I have to admit to and it gives me hope for the other classes.

You also keep bringing up hardened ward, and as Decimus pointed out, it's a not as good a take as you think it is.

@hoangdz I do think you bring up valid points, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't be opposed to a small nerf like reducing the resource return to 10% down from 15% or keeping the resource return but lowering the base damage. But I think the resource return as-is needs to remain as it does play into what a DK should be able to do in combat, and this type of outlier identity is a good thing for the game and need to happen for all the other classes.

BattleAxe · January 22

hoangdz wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

We're still going? Literally linked an example earlier of how you can do this on Live with Siphoning Attacks while not just tanking one person, but half a BG team... in noCP, without even dropping below 80% Stamina... With 800/900 regens.

What is the point you're trying to make here @hoangdz ? Do I need to dig through VODs and link you a Dark Deal example as well? I have one where I streak from one side of Cyrodiil to the other with a ball group chasing me if you're curious.

Also imagine thinking complaining about Hardened Ward is some kind of a flex.

How is Hardened Ward right now? Oh, right... No one runs it anymore because it's a garbage ability now and the skill line overall is meh.

This is exactly why I always say on my streams ZOS should be careful about what kind of "feedback" they listen to.

You were on a block healer. I am on a DPS build. Your comparison is not the same.

Hardened Ward when first released was utterly broken and I was the first person to create a long thread asking for it to be nerfed. A lot of people were doing what you're doing, arguing against me. Turns out I was right and ZOS eventually nerfed it to the ground. My feedback on abilities have been correct so far.

You're right, it's not the same... Because playing a healer is a lot more resource intensive than playing a normal damage build (block or not), thank you for pointing this out. You could do the same even easier on a block oriented DD build.

You may have picked up on how Hardened Ward was really strong before subclassing, well done. Unfortunately it stopped being strong the second subclassing was introduced (same patch where it was nerfed)... and now it's another dead ability in a game full of unused, dead abilities. And you've moved on to try and create more of them while thinking that's "good feedback".

The funniest thing is that even if old Hardened Ward existed on Live, it wouldn't be meta or considered "overpowered", because people have access to stronger skill lines with their own powerful defensive abilities... Since luckily "feedback" hasn't gotten all of those nerfed yet.

Me picking up on how Hardened Ward overperformed day one of PTS was the key. It was immediately feedback that the playerbase deemed “overreacting”, yet became true when the meta established. It didnt take me months to figure that out. It took 1 day of PTS testing. You dismissing or playing it off doesn’t change the fact that before subclass came out, my prediction was correct. Don’t try to veer off.

The same thing is happening in this thread. I am simply pointing out how Inhale can overperform. Whether the meta catches up or not, time will answer.

I have noticed that your style of arguing is very much bad faith. I don’t know if you do it intentionally or you just don’t realize it, but your responses to my claims have been mostly ad hominem or strawman arguments.

I'm arguing in bad faith? You're laser focused on one good ability in the game while there are so many other "overpowered" abilities in the game.

Where's the same outrage about Merciless Resolve? New Molten Whip (faster travel time, stacking, more tt damage, not reflectable)? Superheated Ward ("old" Hardened Ward basically)? Shalks? Ele sus? Rune? Siphoning Attacks? Vigor?

There's a lot of abilities that do what they do really well in the game, and the answer isn't to nerf all of them to the point of uselessness... Especially ones that are not even in the game yet, unless something is obviously bugged and breaking the game (i.e. Engulfing Dragonfire stacking, which was fixed afaik).

Inhale does not break the game any more so than existing abilities, which I've already proven with what I linked.

The answer to all these "overpowered abilities" is buffing other underperforming abilities in the game and giving more tools for people to compete without subclassing. Which I believe is the whole idea behind the reworks...

I’ve already pointed out using a skill that costs health as primary damage skill completely discredits any claim of a skill restoring stam and mag being overpowered. Considering if using another skill in place of BfB such as molten whip which costs both would likely better show how much one gets from inhale.

It doesn’t because sustain with Dark Deal using Bfb is much weaker. I don’t need to remove everything just to prove Inhale over performs. I just need to remove enough. You are ignoring this part of the argument to fit your own narrative.

Ok first dark deal has not received rework yet that will happen by end of yr so your point it’s weaker is null and void. I’m not ignoring anything fyi it is you ignoring a multitude of factors because yes when your primary source of damage is using your health effectively freeing your resource pools you fail to properly test inhale. Now what you are mainly demonstrating now with how adamantly you’re arguing here is confirmation bias. Meaning every test you do is in the logic of proving your point instead of disproving your point which effectively discredits your point in the end. In the video you used to attempt to disprove me if we go back and watch carefully we find effectively your resource pools hit points where one could effectively say you were empty and couldn’t cast resource spenders. Which in turn disproves infinite sustain. Why does this disprove infinite sustain because effectively for even 1 second you could not cast a stam spender or a mag spender. I’ll give you some respect for going and testing however your test at its core is flawed.