Skill Scrolls can NOT go live like this.

C_Inside · January 21

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

C_Inside wrote: »

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

C_Inside wrote: »

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

C_Inside wrote: »

As someone who does endgame PVE as a DD implementing these scrolls will be one of the worst additions that the dying endgame scene has seen in a long time. Why? Because right now there are no other really useful consumables you can use.

You get the Major Weapon/Spell power buffs from Igneous Weapons or Tome-Bearer's Inspiration, you get the Major Crit buffs from NB's bow, and recoveries are useless for most specs because hybridization makes it super easy to run a mix of mag and stam skills so you never run out of either resource. This means that Weapon/Spell Power potions are useless.

Starting next patch Heroism potions will also be mostly useless since you'll be able to source Minor Heroism from Fire Keeper.

So if you're a DD you'll be in a situation where if you want to do trifectas or score push you'll be forced into grinding the Night Market. Score pushing in particular will no longer be just about who the best players are but also which group can no-life the Night Market the hardest. I hope you realize that forcing people to mindlessly grind a limited time event every free second they have to stock up on a boring consumable just so they can stay competitive will not, in fact, attract more people to ESO. It will just serve as another reason for endgame players to quit.

So please, for the love of God, @ZOS_Kevin relay to the dev team that these scrolls absolutely cannot go live in their current state. Others in this thread have already given you reasons from the perspective of werewolf players and PVPers, and now you have the perspective of a PVE player. Either make these scrolls only usable in the Night Market or make them sellable on Guild Stores. Personally I'd prefer the former.

Have you looked at the scrolls ? I'd be curious to know how these will be mandatory for endgame PVE considering it's short duration & buffs you can get elsewhere...

Quick Cloak is not a skill you usually slot because it's so weak. Having it in scroll form is a free DOT you can prebuff without slotting it that doesn't follow the GCDs of your other skills since it's a consumable. So it's essentially free damage. And you also get Major Evasion for free.

Absorb Missile can be used in super niche situations where you'd otherwise consider using a skill like the new DK wings. For example to make it easier to survive the Soulweaver ads in the trash pulls in Rockgrove. So this scroll effectively makes the reworked DK wings dead on arrival.

Momentum is the only one that's useless.

Also, keep in mind the rest of my post about there not being any useful potions. Even if these scrolls only added an extra 100 dps (So 800dps for 8DDs) they would still be mandatory in a score pushing scenario where every last point of dps matters. Or in a still-good-but-not-top-tier trifecta group where 800 dps could be the difference between success and an extra mechanic happening that kills someone.

Ok so you said one scroll is useless, the other one is super niche.

Quick cloak could be a damage boost ? according to tooltip here, 1000 damage every 2 seconds, so 500 dps for 24 seconds + 20 seconds CD. What a boost...

But, yeah, it's OP, so let's nerf it. I'm done here.

OK, let me try to explain this so everyone reading this understands. Firstly, the tooltip in the screenshot is on a weak spec (Sorry Erickson but WW is weak. Hopefully it gets buffed at some point) and it's without any group buffs. For contrast here's a screenshot from ESO logs from the Godslayer prog I'm currently in. This is a run we did last week. Our top parser on Yolna was using Quick Cloak. The last number on the far right is the dps the skill does.

So he'd be getting 2800 free dps if he switches to using scrolls. The weapon/spell damage and crit chance between all of us is about the same. We also have Alkosh and our crit damage is maxed so Quick Cloak would be doing roughly the same dps for all of us. So if all of us use Quick Cloak scrolls that's 2800*8=22400 dps for free. Nearly 22.5K dps for free. Our total DPS on this fight was 867,457.9 so 22.5K is about a 2.6% dps increase. Our Yolna fight took 3 minutes and 21 seconds, so ending the fight 2.6% sooner would mean 5 seconds less time on it. 5 seconds less means potentially 1 less Flare to kill someone and 1 less time stop.

Additionally that's 5 seconds on 1 fight. There are 3 total and each one takes a lot longer. So 2.6% more damage on a longer fight would exponentially mean more time saved, more mechanics skipped and more deaths prevented. And, of course the speedrun portion of the trifecta would be easier. And let's not forget you have a bunch of trash packs as well. That's more time saved. Across the whole trial I'd say we could save anywhere from 40 seconds to a minute and a half.

And again, I can't stress this enough: this is completely free damage. You don't need to change anything on your build to get this. It's completely, 100%, unequivocally free..

I seriously don't think I need to explain further why saving 40 seconds for free if you're score pushing or trying to speedrun, or being able to skip mechanics for free when doing no deaths or a trifecta is a little busted. Maybe if you're a casual player who has never done any seriously content you'll see stuff like 2.6% or 5 seconds on Yolna and not think much of it but believe me, this is huge when you get into endgame. So huge that every endgame group will want to run this, forcing every DD (and potentially every healer who doesn't need potions) to grind their butts of to stack up on scrolls. And if you run out of scrolls and you can't farm anymore because the limited time event ended? Tough luck, we're disbanding this score pushing group because we now can't compete with the other groups that do have scrolls in reserve. Even if you're a casual reading this you can't honestly tell me this is healthy for the game.

I also want to point out that this is just Quick Cloak, a relatively weak skill. What happens if we get scrolls for much stronger skills like Flames of Oblivion or Killer's Blade or Tome-Bearer's Inspiration, or God forbid, Fatecarver? If these scrolls are implemented in their current state it would set a very dangerous precedent going forward. So this power creep issue needs to be nipped in the bud before it has time to fester.

I'm not advocating for their removal necessarily. All I want is for them to either be limited to the Night Market or to not be bound so we can get them without needing to grind endlessly.

2 things:

1) Your math is a little wrong. Quick cloak is 2800 dps if you keep it up 100% of the time. These skill scrolls use your potion cooldown of 45 seconds which means you will not have 100% uptime on them. That brings me to my second point:

2) They are not "unequivocally free", as they take your potion slot. You will sacrifice sustain by doing this. That may not be a problem for every player or every build, but it is a sacrifice.

1) The cooldown in the picture that was shared in the OP shows the cooldown as 20 seconds and the duration as 24. So 100% uptime is possible. Unless I'm not reading something correctly or if ZOS just messed up the UI.

2) Even if only 1 person in your trial group can use them that's still unequivocally free damage. And as I explained in a previous post sustain is a non issue in today's game of ESO because of hybridization. Many specs don't need sustain from potions. And even if we're in a situation where only 1 person in your trifecta or score pushing group can use it, well, that's 1 person that will be forced to farm them. Ideally we need to be in a situation where 0 people will be forced to farm a 1 time use item from a limited time event.

And before you say anything about "well you don't need them even in trifectas because you were able to clear all trifectas before these scrolls", not using these scrolls would mean you're gimping your group's damage on purpose and making the trifecta harder for everyone for no reason. This is the exact opposite of what your mentality should be when you're doing some of the hardest content in the game.

CameraBeardThePirate · January 21

Radiate77 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Sharing a cooldown with potions is not a sacrifice, as sustain is entirely a joke in ESO, also Major Evasion is the strongest defense buff in PvP, and only available through a select few sources, now anyone who farms this enough will have on-demand access without making any of the necessary sacrifices to do so.

It IS a sacrifice though. Immovable potions are run by nearly every comped PvP group for a reason - they're basically an "I Win" button when your group is ready for an ult dump. Yes Major Evasion is strong, but are you really going to give up everyone's CC immunity for it when you could also source it through a healer?

You're right that it sets a bad precedent, but as they are now, I really don't see these being as advantageous as you might think.

You’re saying it’s a sacrifice to not have immovable pots and I’m saying that it isn’t because you can swap around your skills based on each encounter mid-encounter, not every fight would you benefit from Immov pots or sustain.

Part of the skill in buildmaking is fitting the most into your limited bar space, these create a problem where now everyone has a counter for everything on deck.

It’s having that on-demand choice and being able to swap these around on a whim that will create a very unhealthy combat ecosystem, and that is ignoring my disdain for yet another consumable pre-game requirement.

Immovability cannot be sourced from skills though, and in group PvP it is almost always preferable over alternatives for group hits.

That being said, I did just re-read the spell scroll descriptions, and of the 3 images, it does seem that only Forward Momentum has the 45 second cooldown. That is a pretty big issue - I was under the impression every skill had a full 45 second cooldown. It's a much bigger problem if they are all able to have 100% uptime and if they don't each lock you out of potions for the full 45 seconds.

CameraBeardThePirate · January 21

C_Inside wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

C_Inside wrote: »

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

C_Inside wrote: »

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

C_Inside wrote: »

As someone who does endgame PVE as a DD implementing these scrolls will be one of the worst additions that the dying endgame scene has seen in a long time. Why? Because right now there are no other really useful consumables you can use.

You get the Major Weapon/Spell power buffs from Igneous Weapons or Tome-Bearer's Inspiration, you get the Major Crit buffs from NB's bow, and recoveries are useless for most specs because hybridization makes it super easy to run a mix of mag and stam skills so you never run out of either resource. This means that Weapon/Spell Power potions are useless.

Starting next patch Heroism potions will also be mostly useless since you'll be able to source Minor Heroism from Fire Keeper.

So if you're a DD you'll be in a situation where if you want to do trifectas or score push you'll be forced into grinding the Night Market. Score pushing in particular will no longer be just about who the best players are but also which group can no-life the Night Market the hardest. I hope you realize that forcing people to mindlessly grind a limited time event every free second they have to stock up on a boring consumable just so they can stay competitive will not, in fact, attract more people to ESO. It will just serve as another reason for endgame players to quit.

So please, for the love of God, @ZOS_Kevin relay to the dev team that these scrolls absolutely cannot go live in their current state. Others in this thread have already given you reasons from the perspective of werewolf players and PVPers, and now you have the perspective of a PVE player. Either make these scrolls only usable in the Night Market or make them sellable on Guild Stores. Personally I'd prefer the former.

Have you looked at the scrolls ? I'd be curious to know how these will be mandatory for endgame PVE considering it's short duration & buffs you can get elsewhere...

Quick Cloak is not a skill you usually slot because it's so weak. Having it in scroll form is a free DOT you can prebuff without slotting it that doesn't follow the GCDs of your other skills since it's a consumable. So it's essentially free damage. And you also get Major Evasion for free.

Absorb Missile can be used in super niche situations where you'd otherwise consider using a skill like the new DK wings. For example to make it easier to survive the Soulweaver ads in the trash pulls in Rockgrove. So this scroll effectively makes the reworked DK wings dead on arrival.

Momentum is the only one that's useless.

Also, keep in mind the rest of my post about there not being any useful potions. Even if these scrolls only added an extra 100 dps (So 800dps for 8DDs) they would still be mandatory in a score pushing scenario where every last point of dps matters. Or in a still-good-but-not-top-tier trifecta group where 800 dps could be the difference between success and an extra mechanic happening that kills someone.

Ok so you said one scroll is useless, the other one is super niche.

Quick cloak could be a damage boost ? according to tooltip here, 1000 damage every 2 seconds, so 500 dps for 24 seconds + 20 seconds CD. What a boost...

But, yeah, it's OP, so let's nerf it. I'm done here.

OK, let me try to explain this so everyone reading this understands. Firstly, the tooltip in the screenshot is on a weak spec (Sorry Erickson but WW is weak. Hopefully it gets buffed at some point) and it's without any group buffs. For contrast here's a screenshot from ESO logs from the Godslayer prog I'm currently in. This is a run we did last week. Our top parser on Yolna was using Quick Cloak. The last number on the far right is the dps the skill does.

So he'd be getting 2800 free dps if he switches to using scrolls. The weapon/spell damage and crit chance between all of us is about the same. We also have Alkosh and our crit damage is maxed so Quick Cloak would be doing roughly the same dps for all of us. So if all of us use Quick Cloak scrolls that's 2800*8=22400 dps for free. Nearly 22.5K dps for free. Our total DPS on this fight was 867,457.9 so 22.5K is about a 2.6% dps increase. Our Yolna fight took 3 minutes and 21 seconds, so ending the fight 2.6% sooner would mean 5 seconds less time on it. 5 seconds less means potentially 1 less Flare to kill someone and 1 less time stop.

Additionally that's 5 seconds on 1 fight. There are 3 total and each one takes a lot longer. So 2.6% more damage on a longer fight would exponentially mean more time saved, more mechanics skipped and more deaths prevented. And, of course the speedrun portion of the trifecta would be easier. And let's not forget you have a bunch of trash packs as well. That's more time saved. Across the whole trial I'd say we could save anywhere from 40 seconds to a minute and a half.

And again, I can't stress this enough: this is completely free damage. You don't need to change anything on your build to get this. It's completely, 100%, unequivocally free..

I seriously don't think I need to explain further why saving 40 seconds for free if you're score pushing or trying to speedrun, or being able to skip mechanics for free when doing no deaths or a trifecta is a little busted. Maybe if you're a casual player who has never done any seriously content you'll see stuff like 2.6% or 5 seconds on Yolna and not think much of it but believe me, this is huge when you get into endgame. So huge that every endgame group will want to run this, forcing every DD (and potentially every healer who doesn't need potions) to grind their butts of to stack up on scrolls. And if you run out of scrolls and you can't farm anymore because the limited time event ended? Tough luck, we're disbanding this score pushing group because we now can't compete with the other groups that do have scrolls in reserve. Even if you're a casual reading this you can't honestly tell me this is healthy for the game.

I also want to point out that this is just Quick Cloak, a relatively weak skill. What happens if we get scrolls for much stronger skills like Flames of Oblivion or Killer's Blade or Tome-Bearer's Inspiration, or God forbid, Fatecarver? If these scrolls are implemented in their current state it would set a very dangerous precedent going forward. So this power creep issue needs to be nipped in the bud before it has time to fester.

I'm not advocating for their removal necessarily. All I want is for them to either be limited to the Night Market or to not be bound so we can get them without needing to grind endlessly.

2 things:

1) Your math is a little wrong. Quick cloak is 2800 dps if you keep it up 100% of the time. These skill scrolls use your potion cooldown of 45 seconds which means you will not have 100% uptime on them. That brings me to my second point:

2) They are not "unequivocally free", as they take your potion slot. You will sacrifice sustain by doing this. That may not be a problem for every player or every build, but it is a sacrifice.

1) The cooldown in the picture that was shared in the OP shows the cooldown as 20 seconds and the duration as 24. So 100% uptime is possible. Unless I'm not reading something correctly or if ZOS just messed up the UI.

2) Even if only 1 person in your trial group can use them that's still unequivocally free damage. And as I explained in a previous post sustain is a non issue in today's game of ESO because of hybridization. Many specs don't need sustain from potions. And even if we're in a situation where only 1 person in your trifecta or score pushing group can use it, well, that's 1 person that will be forced to farm them. Ideally we need to be in a situation where 0 people will be forced to farm a 1 time use item from a limited time event.

And before you say anything about "well you don't need them even in trifectas because you were able to clear all trifectas before these scrolls", not using these scrolls would mean you're gimping your group's damage on purpose and making the trifecta harder for everyone for no reason. This is the exact opposite of what your mentality should be when you're doing some of the hardest content in the game.

You're right on the cooldowns, I was only looking at the Forward Momentum cooldown and was under the impression they all had 45 second cooldowns. I think it's a much bigger issue without that presumption.

LukosCreyden · January 21

Ah, so this is the new "feature" for this year!
Good grief, what an abysmal idea. Bin them or leave them in the night market.
Never let them see competitive content.

spartaxoxo · January 21

It is not unequivocally free because it has a cooldown that is shared with your potions. People wouldn't run potions if they were completely worthless. Putting them on cooldown is objectively an opportunity cost.

The limited nature of them means they won't be on-demand and that if you try to achieve 100% uptimes on them, you won't have them very long regardless of their cooldown.

They are a reward from doing challenging content. Challenging content in other games often gives rewards that makes completing subsequent high-level content easier to do. There's nothing wrong with that. Having to farm the Night Market itself is a significant cost and challenging, which further limits supply.

Significant buffs in very limited quantities are pretty common in video games. And this one at its most powerful can shave a couple seconds off a tough fight for the most elite players.

At a certain point you have to question how little too little is to not be "game ruining," and "Must never come to pass." Is power just supposed to never be sourced from a consumable?

ceruulean · January 21

I'm sooo tired of the inventory bloat. And ESO now requires a PHD to do theorycrafting with all the crud they're tacking onto the systems.

C_Inside · January 21

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It is not unequivocally free because it has a cooldown that is shared with your potions. People wouldn't run potions if they were completely worthless. Putting them on cooldown is objectively an opportunity cost.

The limited nature of them means they won't be on-demand and that if you try to achieve 100% uptimes on them, you won't have them very long regardless of their cooldown.

They are a reward from doing challenging content. Challenging content in other games often gives rewards that makes completing subsequent high-level content easier to do. There's nothing wrong with that. Having to farm the Night Market itself is a significant cost and challenging, which further limits supply.

Significant buffs in very limited quantities are pretty common in video games. And this one at its most powerful can shave a couple seconds off a tough fight for the most elite players.

At a certain point you have to question how little too little is to not be "game ruining," and "Must never come to pass." Is power just supposed to never be sourced from a consumable?

As I explained in a previous post sustain is a non issue in today's game of ESO because of hybridization. Many specs don't need sustain from potions. And in an even earlier post I outlined how DDs won't have any useful potions starting next patch. So them sharing cooldown with potions is meaningless.

Them being super rare drops is not a good thing at all. It just means that the unfortunate souls that will be forced to farm them to compete will be stuck in the endless grind-mine for even longer.

Power being sourced from a consumable is not a problem. Power being sourced from a super rare, one time use, non tradable, non buyable consumable that can only be obtained from a limited time event is most definitely a problem.

spartaxoxo · January 21

C_Inside wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It is not unequivocally free because it has a cooldown that is shared with your potions. People wouldn't run potions if they were completely worthless. Putting them on cooldown is objectively an opportunity cost.

The limited nature of them means they won't be on-demand and that if you try to achieve 100% uptimes on them, you won't have them very long regardless of their cooldown.

They are a reward from doing challenging content. Challenging content in other games often gives rewards that makes completing subsequent high-level content easier to do. There's nothing wrong with that. Having to farm the Night Market itself is a significant cost and challenging, which further limits supply.

Significant buffs in very limited quantities are pretty common in video games. And this one at its most powerful can shave a couple seconds off a tough fight for the most elite players.

At a certain point you have to question how little too little is to not be "game ruining," and "Must never come to pass." Is power just supposed to never be sourced from a consumable?

As I explained in a previous post sustain is a non issue in today's game of ESO because of hybridization. Many specs don't need sustain from potions. And in an even earlier post I outlined how DDs won't have any useful potions starting next patch. So them sharing cooldown with potions is meaningless.

Them being super rare drops is not a good thing at all. It just means that the unfortunate souls that will be forced to farm them to compete will be stuck in the endless grind-mine for even longer.

Power being sourced from a consumable is not a problem. Power being sourced from a super rare, one time use, non tradable, non buyable consumable that can only be obtained from a limited time event is most definitely a problem.

Potions aren't needed for some situations, but they are for others. It is a cost and it is significant one. I've certainly been killed because a potion was on CD before in both PvE and PvP.

If they were a common drop then they could actually be required for play because people would have reasonable access to them. By making them a very rare resource, they also limit the situations it would be a good idea to use them in. And wipes are that much more costly. They are high risk and high reward because they are so limited. Scarcity is actually a really common way developers of video games introduce highly powerful consumable items. It is in and of itself a way to limit potential damage that a powerful consumable item can cause.

Make it rare enough and people will hoard it like a dragon treasure.

Malyore · January 21

Radiate77 wrote: »

Jestir wrote: »

I actually really like the idea of more in combat consumables like this, even in trials/leaderboard content

How about timed exclusive abilities that you can only get through content available for 2 weeks?

If these weren’t consumed on use, and sourced throughout the world normally, and maybe even craftable, I would love them. But event exclusive combat advantage rewards? Yeah idk.

This is the solution I'd like. Make them normal loot found through all content, and just make them extra potent in the night market. Or make it so you need to find a scroll in the night market first before finding it outside of it.

I think scrolls would be fun for most gameplay where competing against other players isn't a concern.

Gabriel_H · January 21

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Those tooltips appear to be missing some crucial caveats, namely: Cannot be used in PvP zones, Dungeons or Trials.

Overland and arenas only.

For real, I can’t believe they just tried to sneak these in and not make a huge deal about them.

I've said before: ZOS do have great ideas, but their execution can badly miss the mark. This is way off target.

Vaqual · January 21

Not a fan of the concept, but if we are going to have more combat consumables at least allow PC players to customize proper hotbars with keybinds for it.

Personofsecrets · January 21

I've wanted to be able to slot an extra skill for a long time. These items are a great step in the right direction.

ZhuJiuyin · January 21

The biggest problem with scrolls right now is that they provide free extra damage, which severely impacts combat balance, especially on leaderboards.
Furthermore, the lack of tradability and random drops is also an issue, putting players with limited time at a disadvantage because they don't have enough time to farm them. I think that even if scrolls are to be introduced, they should be limited to those that simply provide a named buff, without offering extra damage. And player-to-player trading should also be allowed.
If the Night Market really needs something worth farming for, I think it could be something like tradable skill appearances, but definitely not the current skill scrolls.

evLRise · January 21

Radiate77 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Sharing a cooldown with potions is not a sacrifice, as sustain is entirely a joke in ESO, also Major Evasion is the strongest defense buff in PvP, and only available through a select few sources, now anyone who farms this enough will have on-demand access without making any of the necessary sacrifices to do so.

It IS a sacrifice though. Immovable potions are run by nearly every comped PvP group for a reason - they're basically an "I Win" button when your group is ready for an ult dump. Yes Major Evasion is strong, but are you really going to give up everyone's CC immunity for it when you could also source it through a healer?

You're right that it sets a bad precedent, but as they are now, I really don't see these being as advantageous as you might think.

You’re saying it’s a sacrifice to not have immovable pots and I’m saying that it isn’t because you can swap around your skills based on each encounter mid-encounter, not every fight would you benefit from Immov pots or sustain.

Part of the skill in buildmaking is fitting the most into your limited bar space, these create a problem where now everyone has a counter for everything on deck.

It’s having that on-demand choice and being able to swap these around on a whim that will create a very unhealthy combat ecosystem, and that is ignoring my disdain for yet another consumable pre-game requirement.

I can also swap my immov to a tripot mid combat. Or a resistance pot if I don't need the sustain.

Your argument is legit null.

evLRise · January 21

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

evLRise wrote: »

The idea is really cool. Spell Scrolls are an element that was missing from ESO. The balance idea of it using your potion slot is fine imo. But it needs a bit more work, in the sense of:

- We need more alchemy ingredients, which will be amazing to make alchemy feel interesting as well, rather than having 2-3 BiS potions, so that the scrolls become balanced due to cost of opportunity for good potions.
- We need another crafting system, similar to alchemy. Scribing is already in use so another name I guess. But farming them sounds a bit too tedious.

Other than that the concept is very interesting.

The absolute last thing we need is more alchemy ingredients, there are so many that never see any real use. I'd like an overhaul of existing ones first.

This was literally in the list of upcoming changes.

Radiate77 · January 21

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

The three skill scrolls you showed aren't that OP and apparently it uses potion CD so asking for nerf just straight ahead is overreacting. It's a new feature that could have potential, let them try new things. All this negativity on the forums is exhausting really.

It’s not a nerf to want them to expire after the event if usable everywhere, or for them to be permanently sourced throughout the rest of the game if not.

You say the negativity gets exhausting, I agree, I have said those exact words on a thread recently, but I also don’t think toxic positivity helps much either.

Radiate77 · January 21

evLRise wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Sharing a cooldown with potions is not a sacrifice, as sustain is entirely a joke in ESO, also Major Evasion is the strongest defense buff in PvP, and only available through a select few sources, now anyone who farms this enough will have on-demand access without making any of the necessary sacrifices to do so.

It IS a sacrifice though. Immovable potions are run by nearly every comped PvP group for a reason - they're basically an "I Win" button when your group is ready for an ult dump. Yes Major Evasion is strong, but are you really going to give up everyone's CC immunity for it when you could also source it through a healer?

You're right that it sets a bad precedent, but as they are now, I really don't see these being as advantageous as you might think.

You’re saying it’s a sacrifice to not have immovable pots and I’m saying that it isn’t because you can swap around your skills based on each encounter mid-encounter, not every fight would you benefit from Immov pots or sustain.

Part of the skill in buildmaking is fitting the most into your limited bar space, these create a problem where now everyone has a counter for everything on deck.

It’s having that on-demand choice and being able to swap these around on a whim that will create a very unhealthy combat ecosystem, and that is ignoring my disdain for yet another consumable pre-game requirement.

I can also swap my immov to a tripot mid combat. Or a resistance pot if I don't need the sustain.

Your argument is legit null.

What are you talking about? Yeah you can swap to a resistance pot, but you have a 33k cap on resistances so what are you accomplishing?

There is no cap on damage, or % mitigation values.

evLRise · January 21

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

The biggest problem with scrolls right now is that they provide free extra damage, which severely impacts combat balance, especially on leaderboards.
Furthermore, the lack of tradability and random drops is also an issue, putting players with limited time at a disadvantage because they don't have enough time to farm them. I think that even if scrolls are to be introduced, they should be limited to those that simply provide a named buff, without offering extra damage. And player-to-player trading should also be allowed.
If the Night Market really needs something worth farming for, I think it could be something like tradable skill appearances, but definitely not the current skill scrolls.

How is something that everyone has access to unbalanced? If anything the drop rates are the only issue here. Which is easily fixable, by introducing a crafting skill line for this specifically.

Erickson9610 · January 21

Maybe the Sage's Vault will be the place to craft/buy Skill Scrolls? Probably not, but if these items won't drop from all content like Luminous Ink does, I'd rather see these items be easily acquired in bulk from somewhere.

Radiate77 · January 21

evLRise wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

The biggest problem with scrolls right now is that they provide free extra damage, which severely impacts combat balance, especially on leaderboards.
Furthermore, the lack of tradability and random drops is also an issue, putting players with limited time at a disadvantage because they don't have enough time to farm them. I think that even if scrolls are to be introduced, they should be limited to those that simply provide a named buff, without offering extra damage. And player-to-player trading should also be allowed.
If the Night Market really needs something worth farming for, I think it could be something like tradable skill appearances, but definitely not the current skill scrolls.

How is something that everyone has access to unbalanced? If anything the drop rates are the only issue here. Which is easily fixable, by introducing a crafting skill line for this specifically.

Because not everyone will have access to them.

As soon as that two week cut-off hits, these are no longer available to obtain and the only ones out there will be for those who farmed them excessively, and trust me when I say, anyone with any idea how combat works, will be farming these.

And those who have decided to take a break until their Class comes up for rework will be at a loss.

spartaxoxo · January 21

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Sharing a cooldown with potions is not a sacrifice, as sustain is entirely a joke in ESO, also Major Evasion is the strongest defense buff in PvP, and only available through a select few sources, now anyone who farms this enough will have on-demand access without making any of the necessary sacrifices to do so.

It IS a sacrifice though. Immovable potions are run by nearly every comped PvP group for a reason - they're basically an "I Win" button when your group is ready for an ult dump. Yes Major Evasion is strong, but are you really going to give up everyone's CC immunity for it when you could also source it through a healer?

You're right that it sets a bad precedent, but as they are now, I really don't see these being as advantageous as you might think.

You’re saying it’s a sacrifice to not have immovable pots and I’m saying that it isn’t because you can swap around your skills based on each encounter mid-encounter, not every fight would you benefit from Immov pots or sustain.

Part of the skill in buildmaking is fitting the most into your limited bar space, these create a problem where now everyone has a counter for everything on deck.

It’s having that on-demand choice and being able to swap these around on a whim that will create a very unhealthy combat ecosystem, and that is ignoring my disdain for yet another consumable pre-game requirement.

Immovability cannot be sourced from skills though, and in group PvP it is almost always preferable over alternatives for group hits.

That being said, I did just re-read the spell scroll descriptions, and of the 3 images, it does seem that only Forward Momentum has the 45 second cooldown. That is a pretty big issue - I was under the impression every skill had a full 45 second cooldown. It's a much bigger problem if they are all able to have 100% uptime and if they don't each lock you out of potions for the full 45 seconds.

I do wonder if the the tooltip is accurate because I saw it shared the same cooldown as potions. I wonder if those particular scrolls are meant to have 20 second cds.

Anyway, they definitely do put potions on cd based on everything I can find online. I would be curious if someone on PTS can show us the CDs of these.

Oblivion_Protocol · January 21

I’ve got to be honest. I’m not seeing the reason for the doomsday whistle here. These are consumable items that are only available for a limited time. They’re a drop, which means they’re subject to this game’s infamously horrendous RNG. Even if people farm for hours and hours, how many of the “good” or “meta” scrolls could they possibly get their hands on? They’ll run out pretty soon after the event ends and everything will go right back to normal.

Erickson9610 · January 21

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Sharing a cooldown with potions is not a sacrifice, as sustain is entirely a joke in ESO, also Major Evasion is the strongest defense buff in PvP, and only available through a select few sources, now anyone who farms this enough will have on-demand access without making any of the necessary sacrifices to do so.

It IS a sacrifice though. Immovable potions are run by nearly every comped PvP group for a reason - they're basically an "I Win" button when your group is ready for an ult dump. Yes Major Evasion is strong, but are you really going to give up everyone's CC immunity for it when you could also source it through a healer?

You're right that it sets a bad precedent, but as they are now, I really don't see these being as advantageous as you might think.

You’re saying it’s a sacrifice to not have immovable pots and I’m saying that it isn’t because you can swap around your skills based on each encounter mid-encounter, not every fight would you benefit from Immov pots or sustain.

Part of the skill in buildmaking is fitting the most into your limited bar space, these create a problem where now everyone has a counter for everything on deck.

It’s having that on-demand choice and being able to swap these around on a whim that will create a very unhealthy combat ecosystem, and that is ignoring my disdain for yet another consumable pre-game requirement.

Immovability cannot be sourced from skills though, and in group PvP it is almost always preferable over alternatives for group hits.

That being said, I did just re-read the spell scroll descriptions, and of the 3 images, it does seem that only Forward Momentum has the 45 second cooldown. That is a pretty big issue - I was under the impression every skill had a full 45 second cooldown. It's a much bigger problem if they are all able to have 100% uptime and if they don't each lock you out of potions for the full 45 seconds.

I do wonder if the the tooltip is accurate because I saw it shared the same cooldown as potions. I wonder if those particular scrolls are meant to have 20 second cds.

Anyway, they definitely do put potions on cd based on everything I can find online. I would be curious if someone on PTS can show us the CDs of these.

The way "cooldown" works is that it adds the cooldown amount to a timer. You cannot use anything that adds cooldown if your cooldown value is greater than zero.

Potions typically have a 45 second cooldown. This cooldown can be lowered with Potion Cooldown glyphs and the Seeker Synthesis set. Using a potion adds its cooldown amount to your timer.

Some of these Skill Scrolls have cooldowns less than 45 seconds. These cooldown values are not affected by Potion Cooldown effects. If you use a Skill Scroll with a 20 second cooldown value, you are able to use another Skill Scroll or Potion when 20 seconds have elapsed.

What this looks like is the cooldown being already halfway complete when you use a Skill Scroll with a 20 second cooldown and immediately try swapping to a Potion that has a 45 second cooldown. If you use a Potion or Skill Scroll with a high cooldown value, you must wait longer until you can use anything else that adds cooldown.

spartaxoxo · January 21

Erickson9610 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Sharing a cooldown with potions is not a sacrifice, as sustain is entirely a joke in ESO, also Major Evasion is the strongest defense buff in PvP, and only available through a select few sources, now anyone who farms this enough will have on-demand access without making any of the necessary sacrifices to do so.

It IS a sacrifice though. Immovable potions are run by nearly every comped PvP group for a reason - they're basically an "I Win" button when your group is ready for an ult dump. Yes Major Evasion is strong, but are you really going to give up everyone's CC immunity for it when you could also source it through a healer?

You're right that it sets a bad precedent, but as they are now, I really don't see these being as advantageous as you might think.

You’re saying it’s a sacrifice to not have immovable pots and I’m saying that it isn’t because you can swap around your skills based on each encounter mid-encounter, not every fight would you benefit from Immov pots or sustain.

Part of the skill in buildmaking is fitting the most into your limited bar space, these create a problem where now everyone has a counter for everything on deck.

It’s having that on-demand choice and being able to swap these around on a whim that will create a very unhealthy combat ecosystem, and that is ignoring my disdain for yet another consumable pre-game requirement.

Immovability cannot be sourced from skills though, and in group PvP it is almost always preferable over alternatives for group hits.

That being said, I did just re-read the spell scroll descriptions, and of the 3 images, it does seem that only Forward Momentum has the 45 second cooldown. That is a pretty big issue - I was under the impression every skill had a full 45 second cooldown. It's a much bigger problem if they are all able to have 100% uptime and if they don't each lock you out of potions for the full 45 seconds.

I do wonder if the the tooltip is accurate because I saw it shared the same cooldown as potions. I wonder if those particular scrolls are meant to have 20 second cds.

Anyway, they definitely do put potions on cd based on everything I can find online. I would be curious if someone on PTS can show us the CDs of these.

The way "cooldown" works is that it adds the cooldown amount to a timer. You cannot use anything that adds cooldown if your cooldown value is greater than zero.

Potions typically have a 45 second cooldown. This cooldown can be lowered with Potion Cooldown glyphs and the Seeker Synthesis set. Using a potion adds its cooldown amount to your timer.

Some of these Skill Scrolls have cooldowns less than 45 seconds. These cooldown values are not affected by Potion Cooldown effects. If you use a Skill Scroll with a 20 second cooldown value, you are able to use another Skill Scroll or Potion when 20 seconds have elapsed.

What this looks like is the cooldown being already halfway complete when swapping from a 20 second Skill Scroll cooldown to a 45 second Potion cooldown. If you use a Potion or Skill Scroll with a high cooldown value, you must wait longer until you can use anything else that adds cooldown.

I know. I'm asking if the skill scroll is actually a 20 second cooldown.

Erickson9610 · January 21

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Sharing a cooldown with potions is not a sacrifice, as sustain is entirely a joke in ESO, also Major Evasion is the strongest defense buff in PvP, and only available through a select few sources, now anyone who farms this enough will have on-demand access without making any of the necessary sacrifices to do so.

It IS a sacrifice though. Immovable potions are run by nearly every comped PvP group for a reason - they're basically an "I Win" button when your group is ready for an ult dump. Yes Major Evasion is strong, but are you really going to give up everyone's CC immunity for it when you could also source it through a healer?

You're right that it sets a bad precedent, but as they are now, I really don't see these being as advantageous as you might think.

You’re saying it’s a sacrifice to not have immovable pots and I’m saying that it isn’t because you can swap around your skills based on each encounter mid-encounter, not every fight would you benefit from Immov pots or sustain.

Part of the skill in buildmaking is fitting the most into your limited bar space, these create a problem where now everyone has a counter for everything on deck.

It’s having that on-demand choice and being able to swap these around on a whim that will create a very unhealthy combat ecosystem, and that is ignoring my disdain for yet another consumable pre-game requirement.

Immovability cannot be sourced from skills though, and in group PvP it is almost always preferable over alternatives for group hits.

That being said, I did just re-read the spell scroll descriptions, and of the 3 images, it does seem that only Forward Momentum has the 45 second cooldown. That is a pretty big issue - I was under the impression every skill had a full 45 second cooldown. It's a much bigger problem if they are all able to have 100% uptime and if they don't each lock you out of potions for the full 45 seconds.

I do wonder if the the tooltip is accurate because I saw it shared the same cooldown as potions. I wonder if those particular scrolls are meant to have 20 second cds.

Anyway, they definitely do put potions on cd based on everything I can find online. I would be curious if someone on PTS can show us the CDs of these.

The way "cooldown" works is that it adds the cooldown amount to a timer. You cannot use anything that adds cooldown if your cooldown value is greater than zero.

Potions typically have a 45 second cooldown. This cooldown can be lowered with Potion Cooldown glyphs and the Seeker Synthesis set. Using a potion adds its cooldown amount to your timer.

Some of these Skill Scrolls have cooldowns less than 45 seconds. These cooldown values are not affected by Potion Cooldown effects. If you use a Skill Scroll with a 20 second cooldown value, you are able to use another Skill Scroll or Potion when 20 seconds have elapsed.

What this looks like is the cooldown being already halfway complete when swapping from a 20 second Skill Scroll cooldown to a 45 second Potion cooldown. If you use a Potion or Skill Scroll with a high cooldown value, you must wait longer until you can use anything else that adds cooldown.

I know. I'm asking if the skill scroll is actually a 20 second cooldown.

Yes. Two of the Skill Scrolls are actually 20 second cooldowns. That part is not a bug.

To add to this, you always want to use the low cooldown items first:
Potion (45s) -> Skill Scroll (20s): 45 seconds of downtime between effects
Skill Scroll (20s) -> Potion (45s): 20 seconds of downtime between effects

In both cases, the total cooldown is the same (65s) but you have to plan how far apart you want your effects to be spaced.

Radiate77 · January 21

Erickson9610 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Sharing a cooldown with potions is not a sacrifice, as sustain is entirely a joke in ESO, also Major Evasion is the strongest defense buff in PvP, and only available through a select few sources, now anyone who farms this enough will have on-demand access without making any of the necessary sacrifices to do so.

It IS a sacrifice though. Immovable potions are run by nearly every comped PvP group for a reason - they're basically an "I Win" button when your group is ready for an ult dump. Yes Major Evasion is strong, but are you really going to give up everyone's CC immunity for it when you could also source it through a healer?

You're right that it sets a bad precedent, but as they are now, I really don't see these being as advantageous as you might think.

You’re saying it’s a sacrifice to not have immovable pots and I’m saying that it isn’t because you can swap around your skills based on each encounter mid-encounter, not every fight would you benefit from Immov pots or sustain.

Part of the skill in buildmaking is fitting the most into your limited bar space, these create a problem where now everyone has a counter for everything on deck.

It’s having that on-demand choice and being able to swap these around on a whim that will create a very unhealthy combat ecosystem, and that is ignoring my disdain for yet another consumable pre-game requirement.

Immovability cannot be sourced from skills though, and in group PvP it is almost always preferable over alternatives for group hits.

That being said, I did just re-read the spell scroll descriptions, and of the 3 images, it does seem that only Forward Momentum has the 45 second cooldown. That is a pretty big issue - I was under the impression every skill had a full 45 second cooldown. It's a much bigger problem if they are all able to have 100% uptime and if they don't each lock you out of potions for the full 45 seconds.

I do wonder if the the tooltip is accurate because I saw it shared the same cooldown as potions. I wonder if those particular scrolls are meant to have 20 second cds.

Anyway, they definitely do put potions on cd based on everything I can find online. I would be curious if someone on PTS can show us the CDs of these.

The way "cooldown" works is that it adds the cooldown amount to a timer. You cannot use anything that adds cooldown if your cooldown value is greater than zero.

Potions typically have a 45 second cooldown. This cooldown can be lowered with Potion Cooldown glyphs and the Seeker Synthesis set. Using a potion adds its cooldown amount to your timer.

Some of these Skill Scrolls have cooldowns less than 45 seconds. These cooldown values are not affected by Potion Cooldown effects. If you use a Skill Scroll with a 20 second cooldown value, you are able to use another Skill Scroll or Potion when 20 seconds have elapsed.

What this looks like is the cooldown being already halfway complete when swapping from a 20 second Skill Scroll cooldown to a 45 second Potion cooldown. If you use a Potion or Skill Scroll with a high cooldown value, you must wait longer until you can use anything else that adds cooldown.

I know. I'm asking if the skill scroll is actually a 20 second cooldown.

Yes. Two of the Skill Scrolls are actually 20 second cooldowns. That part is not a bug.

To add to this, you always want to use the low cooldown items first:
Potion (45s) -> Skill Scroll (20s): 45 seconds of downtime between effects
Skill Scroll (20s) -> Potion (45s): 20 seconds of downtime between effects

In both cases, the total cooldown is the same (65s) but you have to plan how far apart you want your effects to be spaced.

When the private add-on gets made to take full advantage of this, I expect an invite!

Erickson9610 · January 21

Erickson9610 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Sharing a cooldown with potions is not a sacrifice, as sustain is entirely a joke in ESO, also Major Evasion is the strongest defense buff in PvP, and only available through a select few sources, now anyone who farms this enough will have on-demand access without making any of the necessary sacrifices to do so.

It IS a sacrifice though. Immovable potions are run by nearly every comped PvP group for a reason - they're basically an "I Win" button when your group is ready for an ult dump. Yes Major Evasion is strong, but are you really going to give up everyone's CC immunity for it when you could also source it through a healer?

You're right that it sets a bad precedent, but as they are now, I really don't see these being as advantageous as you might think.

You’re saying it’s a sacrifice to not have immovable pots and I’m saying that it isn’t because you can swap around your skills based on each encounter mid-encounter, not every fight would you benefit from Immov pots or sustain.

Part of the skill in buildmaking is fitting the most into your limited bar space, these create a problem where now everyone has a counter for everything on deck.

It’s having that on-demand choice and being able to swap these around on a whim that will create a very unhealthy combat ecosystem, and that is ignoring my disdain for yet another consumable pre-game requirement.

Immovability cannot be sourced from skills though, and in group PvP it is almost always preferable over alternatives for group hits.

That being said, I did just re-read the spell scroll descriptions, and of the 3 images, it does seem that only Forward Momentum has the 45 second cooldown. That is a pretty big issue - I was under the impression every skill had a full 45 second cooldown. It's a much bigger problem if they are all able to have 100% uptime and if they don't each lock you out of potions for the full 45 seconds.

I do wonder if the the tooltip is accurate because I saw it shared the same cooldown as potions. I wonder if those particular scrolls are meant to have 20 second cds.

Anyway, they definitely do put potions on cd based on everything I can find online. I would be curious if someone on PTS can show us the CDs of these.

The way "cooldown" works is that it adds the cooldown amount to a timer. You cannot use anything that adds cooldown if your cooldown value is greater than zero.

Potions typically have a 45 second cooldown. This cooldown can be lowered with Potion Cooldown glyphs and the Seeker Synthesis set. Using a potion adds its cooldown amount to your timer.

Some of these Skill Scrolls have cooldowns less than 45 seconds. These cooldown values are not affected by Potion Cooldown effects. If you use a Skill Scroll with a 20 second cooldown value, you are able to use another Skill Scroll or Potion when 20 seconds have elapsed.

What this looks like is the cooldown being already halfway complete when swapping from a 20 second Skill Scroll cooldown to a 45 second Potion cooldown. If you use a Potion or Skill Scroll with a high cooldown value, you must wait longer until you can use anything else that adds cooldown.

I know. I'm asking if the skill scroll is actually a 20 second cooldown.

Yes. Two of the Skill Scrolls are actually 20 second cooldowns. That part is not a bug.

To add to this, you always want to use the low cooldown items first:
Potion (45s) -> Skill Scroll (20s): 45 seconds of downtime between effects
Skill Scroll (20s) -> Potion (45s): 20 seconds of downtime between effects

In both cases, the total cooldown is the same (65s) but you have to plan how far apart you want your effects to be spaced.

And in the event that Skill Scrolls are standardized to have a 45 second cooldown, with a Potion Cooldown build this will apply:

Potion (30s or lower) -> Skill Scroll (45s): <= 30s of downtime
Skill Scroll (45s) -> Potion (30s or lower): 45s of downtime

The only way to truly standardize these is to make Potion Cooldown (including from the Seeker's Synthesis set) affect Skill Scrolls as well as Potions, and give them all the same Cooldown value.

Twohothardware · January 21

If any of the individual Skill Scrolls are completely unbalanced in other areas of the game like PvP then yes they should look into adjustments to that specific Skill Scroll.

But calling for them not to function in other parts of the game because you don't want to farm the new content to get them is dumb. Nothing in the game requires them in order to complete or participate in the content. Them giving an advantage to the players that want to farm the new content to get them is just part of any MMO.

MincMincMinc · January 21

Soarora wrote: »

React wrote: »

If they want to introduce more consumables, I'd much prefer they first finish the hybridization work on potions/poisons, and from there perhaps introduce new reagents that allow for new combinations of potions/poisons (but PLEASE not like dragon's rhaeum and dragon's blood, which are so scarce that single stacks of potions costs millions of gold to make).

I think a lot of people missed this from the stream— ZOS mentioned finishing potion hybridization this year. It was on one of the slides that were shown, no one actually verbalized it.

Yeah lets hope they fix some of the subclassing woes, like they can make armor pots give resolve and potential missing buffs that force people down the BIS major resolve lines.

Be nice if we knocked down tristat pots back to the 20% major like they used to be before the game's sustain system ballooned.

Would also be nice if they knocked major/minor expedition down to balance out so major expedition is just a full duration potion. Eso has been stuck with this stop and go traffic feeling due to wild speed buff swings since murkmire.

Radiate77 · January 21

I would be remiss if I didn’t say:

One of the new stated goals from ZOS was that they wanted to work with us when rolling out features, this is the perfect time for someone to chime in and explain in better detail the intention of these, and allude to a bigger plan later.

This way we can give feedback and help make whatever future these Scrolls have in ESO, a good one.