DK's Inhale's sustain change needs to be reverted

xylena · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

Screenshot taken from a duel

I seriously doubt it performs like that in OW where it goes dead every time you stop dealing damage, which is frequently when your only passive damage is Hurricane. Any number of defensive skills would be better than Surge in that slot for OW.

hoangdz · January 21

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Screenshot taken from a duel

I seriously doubt it performs like that in OW where it goes dead every time you stop dealing damage, which is frequently when your only passive damage is Hurricane. Any number of defensive skills would be better than Surge in that slot for OW.

Trust me, it works. You can try yourself if you doubt

xylena · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

Trust me, it works. You can try yourself if you doubt

I sure have, with all the time I've spent on DK, Sorc, and DK/Sorc hybrids.

I found Surge to be mediocre at best without sticky dots as enablers, my frame of reference being CA burst StamSorc in like 2018, testing subclassed onto NB, and a few random MagSorc stretches. I replaced it with a Scribing skill for the major buff last time I tried MagSorc.

With sticky dot enablers, Surge does like 3k+ hps. You're getting half that in a duel and not even using the major buff. I think you undervalue bar slots, which is leading you to overvalue Heart of Flame, where I see its opportunity cost balancing it.

BardokRedSnow · January 21

MincMincMinc wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Unless there's something in the dk passives that makes inhale sustain stronger when pure classed, which there isn't, only to damage itself, there's no reason to nerf it.

Subclassing doesnt mean we should open doors to allow imbalances.

Nightblade merciless now gives you 5k weapon damage and brushes your teeth for you.....oh well this is fine to have in the game, anyone can subclass it after all. This is just not a good line of reasoning, spend the time write out values and math for the actual backed conclusion.

Netch accounts for
176 restore per sec == 353.28 post buff regen == 218 prebuffed regen (assume meta buffs)

spam is 176 restore

DarkConversion(more than darkdeal cuz stamsorc sucks)
222.75 restore per sec == 445.5 post buff regen == 275 prebuff regen

Spam unbashed is 4500mag-3045stam == 1455 mag

HOF ......... lets assume a generous 60% of both 17k mag and 22k stam which are fairly meta values giving the benefit of the doubt that you have not swapped off regen food or anything else from meta.
22kstam*(1-0.6)*0.15 = 1320 stam == 1320 post buff regen == 815 prebuff regen

17kmag*(1-0.6)*0.15 = 1020 mag == 1020 post buff regen == 630 prebuff regen

60% resource spam = 1320+1020-3370 = -1030resources (you would only spam while blocking at low resources so not a great value for comparison spam wise)

20% resource spam = 2640+2040-3370 == 1310 resources (similar to darkconverge spam while being able to block, unbashable, and cast slightly faster)

HOF even given gracious build assumptions like not changing from regen to buff max stats and getting realistic 60% resources of low meta resources. It already does like 5x the constant sustain. Now zos could be assuming that nobody is going to inhale every 4s and assumes a 8s or 12s downtime which brings this constant running "regen" down over a longer period....the 5x would line up with one time usage every 20s like other sustain tools......................It is very likely zos used the average max stats and assumed 50% and then chose 15% missing to be equivalent to Dark Convergence. They got the numbers somehow, and my calcs are pretty on point for this notion.

At low resources during expected spam usage it is fairly equivalent to dark conversion without the massive hassle of casting and being bashed while unable to block. Again I want to highlight the ability for permablock abuse.

Feel free to point out errors here, I can update my values and repost as needed.

Bolded text is exactly my entire point of why this issue is exaggerated. Permablock builds to me aren't a concern, I safely ignore them until they're all thats left and they die alone.

hoangdz · January 21

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Trust me, it works. You can try yourself if you doubt

I sure have, with all the time I've spent on DK, Sorc, and DK/Sorc hybrids.

I found Surge to be mediocre at best without sticky dots as enablers, my frame of reference being CA burst StamSorc in like 2018, testing subclassed onto NB, and a few random MagSorc stretches. I replaced it with a Scribing skill for the major buff last time I tried MagSorc.

With sticky dot enablers, Surge does like 3k+ hps. You're getting half that in a duel and not even using the major buff. I think you undervalue bar slots, which is leading you to overvalue Heart of Flame, where I see its opportunity cost balancing it.

This is my HPS in an old duel with Surge vs a magsorc:

Using this build:

98 Surge procs in 4 minutes 2 seconds, that's a 40% proc chance for Surge off 2 AoE DoTs, 2-3 occasional 4s sticky DoTs, and mostly direct damage.

I only found Surge to be underwhelming when I'm heavily kiting. Otherwise, it's been performing very well for me. This is also why I am willing to double dip on Surge and Netch.

hoangdz · January 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Unless there's something in the dk passives that makes inhale sustain stronger when pure classed, which there isn't, only to damage itself, there's no reason to nerf it.

Subclassing doesnt mean we should open doors to allow imbalances.

Nightblade merciless now gives you 5k weapon damage and brushes your teeth for you.....oh well this is fine to have in the game, anyone can subclass it after all. This is just not a good line of reasoning, spend the time write out values and math for the actual backed conclusion.

Netch accounts for
176 restore per sec == 353.28 post buff regen == 218 prebuffed regen (assume meta buffs)

spam is 176 restore

DarkConversion(more than darkdeal cuz stamsorc sucks)
222.75 restore per sec == 445.5 post buff regen == 275 prebuff regen

Spam unbashed is 4500mag-3045stam == 1455 mag

HOF ......... lets assume a generous 60% of both 17k mag and 22k stam which are fairly meta values giving the benefit of the doubt that you have not swapped off regen food or anything else from meta.
22kstam*(1-0.6)*0.15 = 1320 stam == 1320 post buff regen == 815 prebuff regen

17kmag*(1-0.6)*0.15 = 1020 mag == 1020 post buff regen == 630 prebuff regen

60% resource spam = 1320+1020-3370 = -1030resources (you would only spam while blocking at low resources so not a great value for comparison spam wise)

20% resource spam = 2640+2040-3370 == 1310 resources (similar to darkconverge spam while being able to block, unbashable, and cast slightly faster)

HOF even given gracious build assumptions like not changing from regen to buff max stats and getting realistic 60% resources of low meta resources. It already does like 5x the constant sustain. Now zos could be assuming that nobody is going to inhale every 4s and assumes a 8s or 12s downtime which brings this constant running "regen" down over a longer period....the 5x would line up with one time usage every 20s like other sustain tools......................It is very likely zos used the average max stats and assumed 50% and then chose 15% missing to be equivalent to Dark Convergence. They got the numbers somehow, and my calcs are pretty on point for this notion.

At low resources during expected spam usage it is fairly equivalent to dark conversion without the massive hassle of casting and being bashed while unable to block. Again I want to highlight the ability for permablock abuse.

Feel free to point out errors here, I can update my values and repost as needed.

Bolded text is exactly my entire point of why this issue is exaggerated. Permablock builds to me aren't a concern, I safely ignore them until they're all thats left and they die alone.

When the meta settles you will see what I mean

MincMincMinc · January 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Unless there's something in the dk passives that makes inhale sustain stronger when pure classed, which there isn't, only to damage itself, there's no reason to nerf it.

Subclassing doesnt mean we should open doors to allow imbalances.

Nightblade merciless now gives you 5k weapon damage and brushes your teeth for you.....oh well this is fine to have in the game, anyone can subclass it after all. This is just not a good line of reasoning, spend the time write out values and math for the actual backed conclusion.

Netch accounts for
176 restore per sec == 353.28 post buff regen == 218 prebuffed regen (assume meta buffs)

spam is 176 restore

DarkConversion(more than darkdeal cuz stamsorc sucks)
222.75 restore per sec == 445.5 post buff regen == 275 prebuff regen

Spam unbashed is 4500mag-3045stam == 1455 mag

HOF ......... lets assume a generous 60% of both 17k mag and 22k stam which are fairly meta values giving the benefit of the doubt that you have not swapped off regen food or anything else from meta.
22kstam*(1-0.6)*0.15 = 1320 stam == 1320 post buff regen == 815 prebuff regen

17kmag*(1-0.6)*0.15 = 1020 mag == 1020 post buff regen == 630 prebuff regen

60% resource spam = 1320+1020-3370 = -1030resources (you would only spam while blocking at low resources so not a great value for comparison spam wise)

20% resource spam = 2640+2040-3370 == 1310 resources (similar to darkconverge spam while being able to block, unbashable, and cast slightly faster)

HOF even given gracious build assumptions like not changing from regen to buff max stats and getting realistic 60% resources of low meta resources. It already does like 5x the constant sustain. Now zos could be assuming that nobody is going to inhale every 4s and assumes a 8s or 12s downtime which brings this constant running "regen" down over a longer period....the 5x would line up with one time usage every 20s like other sustain tools......................It is very likely zos used the average max stats and assumed 50% and then chose 15% missing to be equivalent to Dark Convergence. They got the numbers somehow, and my calcs are pretty on point for this notion.

At low resources during expected spam usage it is fairly equivalent to dark conversion without the massive hassle of casting and being bashed while unable to block. Again I want to highlight the ability for permablock abuse.

Feel free to point out errors here, I can update my values and repost as needed.

Bolded text is exactly my entire point of why this issue is exaggerated. Permablock builds to me aren't a concern, I safely ignore them until they're all thats left and they die alone.

Average build usage seems balanced at the 50% mark. I suppose whats good is for an average build it is a higher skill cap concept. Good players will stack higher max stats and essentially play flappy bird with their resource pool. Falling down to low and then boosting back up. I agree with this higher skill cap sustain vs a generic flat regen rate like we see with netch and current Darkdeal

I would estimate most people are going to recast every 10s though in pvp, not the zos assumed 20s effectively doubling the sustain expected.......darkdeal doesnt 2x because of the recast loss so it is more like 1.75x.......netch is free over time so it stays the same. Most kill windows are only 3-4 gcds anyways. Assume a few gcds for post burst healing. Then you get back to recasting sustain and buffs > debuffs and repeat. Even stamsorc does this same rotation wasting half of darkdeal.

xylena · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

I only found Surge to be underwhelming when I'm heavily kiting

You run high armor face tank builds on Sorc, right. You're still only getting a fraction of Surge's value, 800 hps with no buff, compared to 2k-3k+ with major buff you get when enabled.

Since I mostly kite, I'd need to consider whether Heart of Flame is even worth slotting, the AoE damage component goes blank every time I'm on the defensive, an empty gcd under fire is a significant risk when you're not building to be face tanky. Sustain is not hard.

This does not seem like something that needs a nerf. Some troll tank bouncing between 10% and 50% resources by pressing a mid damage skill every 4sec isn't the threat. The build that one shots with an unblockable stun into burst ult atop a stack of procs is the threat.

If you want to crusade to nerf something, there are a million headaches ruining this game before "yet another sustain skill" like burst procs, group buff procs, permablock, subclass combos, etc.

MincMincMinc · January 21

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I only found Surge to be underwhelming when I'm heavily kiting

You run high armor face tank builds on Sorc, right. You're still only getting a fraction of Surge's value, 800 hps with no buff, compared to 2k-3k+ with major buff you get when enabled.

Wait what do you mean only 800hps? Its a constant value of 3300 that gets modified by % mods. Or do you mean uptime wise he gets less? In his case, the way he 1vX's its should be fairly consistent considering hurricane ticks on groups of 6+ enemies.

xylena · January 21

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Wait what do you mean only 800hps? Its a constant value of 3300 that gets modified by % mods. Or do you mean uptime wise he gets less? In his case, the way he 1vX's its should be fairly consistent considering hurricane ticks on groups of 6+ enemies.

Yeah I'm sure it's great when 6 bad players are in his face, most things are. Against a MagSorc where he couldn't consistently enable it, he got 800. This more accurately reflects average OW combat to me, where there is a lot of obnoxious range spam and obligated kiting.

Judging Surge only by "6 bad players in your face" is like judging Heart of Flame only by an open cast at 10% resources. The 3k+ hps ceiling on Surge might seem nerf-worthy to some too, but you're not always getting that, neither are you always hitting the ceiling on Heart of Flame.

hoangdz · January 21

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I only found Surge to be underwhelming when I'm heavily kiting

You run high armor face tank builds on Sorc, right. You're still only getting a fraction of Surge's value, 800 hps with no buff, compared to 2k-3k+ with major buff you get when enabled.

Since I mostly kite, I'd need to consider whether Heart of Flame is even worth slotting, the AoE damage component goes blank every time I'm on the defensive, an empty gcd under fire is a significant risk when you're not building to be face tanky. Sustain is not hard.

This does not seem like something that needs a nerf. Some troll tank bouncing between 10% and 50% resources by pressing a mid damage skill every 4sec isn't the threat. The build that one shots with an unblockable stun into burst ult atop a stack of procs is the threat.

If you want to crusade to nerf something, there are a million headaches ruining this game before "yet another sustain skill" like burst procs, group buff procs, permablock, subclass combos, etc.

Can you clarify what you meant in your first paragraph?

Right, sustain isn’t hard, but let’s not downplay it because you are also sacrificing something to get that sustain. In most cases, that’s:

- 4k mag and stam
- A red CP
- A recovery glyph
- A potion effect

You’re trading one stat for another. You aren’t magically gaining sustain from nothing. With Inhale though, you can:

- Run max stat food
- Drop Sustained by Suffering CP for something else
- Run another potion

I am going on a crusade against this skill because it can be abused like Dark Deal, but to a much greater degree. With Dark Deal, I am already fully specced into defense and damage. I dropped Sustained by Suffering to use Celerity. The only thing left I can drop is Tri Pots, but that’s not doable with Dark Deal. With Inhale tho, I can. I will be running double armor potions and using an infused ice staff back bar and 3x Infused glyphs when this goes live.

hoangdz · January 21

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Wait what do you mean only 800hps? Its a constant value of 3300 that gets modified by % mods. Or do you mean uptime wise he gets less? In his case, the way he 1vX's its should be fairly consistent considering hurricane ticks on groups of 6+ enemies.

Yeah I'm sure it's great when 6 bad players are in his face, most things are. Against a MagSorc where he couldn't consistently enable it, he got 800. This more accurately reflects average OW combat to me, where there is a lot of obnoxious range spam and obligated kiting.

Judging Surge only by "6 bad players in your face" is like judging Heart of Flame only by an open cast at 10% resources. The 3k+ hps ceiling on Surge might seem nerf-worthy to some too, but you're not always getting that, neither are you always hitting the ceiling on Heart of Flame.

800 is still a lot tho, and I can always proc it with a light attack + Ele sus combo from range. That’s 4 ticks of direct damage.

I’m not going to convince you with words, so I’ll do what I do best and post gameplay clips. I’ll be using zero tri pots and minimum recovery stat for all my duels. You’ll see what I mean.

MincMincMinc · January 21

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Wait what do you mean only 800hps? Its a constant value of 3300 that gets modified by % mods. Or do you mean uptime wise he gets less? In his case, the way he 1vX's its should be fairly consistent considering hurricane ticks on groups of 6+ enemies.

Yeah I'm sure it's great when 6 bad players are in his face, most things are. Against a MagSorc where he couldn't consistently enable it, he got 800. This more accurately reflects average OW combat to me, where there is a lot of obnoxious range spam and obligated kiting.

Judging Surge only by "6 bad players in your face" is like judging Heart of Flame only by an open cast at 10% resources. The 3k+ hps ceiling on Surge might seem nerf-worthy to some too, but you're not always getting that, neither are you always hitting the ceiling on Heart of Flame.

OK agreed then, this is what i tend to see on 1vX as I play more kite hit and run oldschool stamsorc concepts. In a good longterm 1v3+ fights not kiting I find critsurge is matches my vigor and healingsoul for overall healing in cmx.

xylena · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

I’m not going to convince you with words, so I’ll do what I do best and post gameplay clips. I’ll be using zero tri pots and minimum recovery stat for all my duels. You’ll see what I mean.

No need, I get that Hurricane is enough to enable it in duels or melee 1vX, but as you acknowledge it falls off when kiting in OW, which is why I don't like it there.

daemondamian · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

This skill is providing TOO MUCH sustain on PTS in PvP. For 3.8k cost, it's restoring so much magicka and stamina that you can afford to run zero regen food and STILL sustain like someone with 3k recovery. You literally cannot run out of sustain with this skill active. Even if you are at 10% resources for both stam and mag, as long as you're able to cast Inhale, you will recover to 50% resources after it ends.

This results in situations where the DK player can choose to forgo building recovery completely and build into maximum damage/defense. This is something that only Sorcerer can pull off, and they can only do that for either stam or mag. DK does that for BOTH resources.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin Please forward this to the dev team so they can take a look at this skill.

As a solo PVE player I would much prefer if it were to be adjusted by battlespirit or some other means/qualifier than totally nerfed for PVE too just because it's too strong for PVP.

hoangdz · January 22

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I’m not going to convince you with words, so I’ll do what I do best and post gameplay clips. I’ll be using zero tri pots and minimum recovery stat for all my duels. You’ll see what I mean.

No need, I get that Hurricane is enough to enable it in duels or melee 1vX, but as you acknowledge it falls off when kiting in OW, which is why I don't like it there.

Doesn’t make it any less strong for most situations tho. If it functioned just as well during kiting then it deserves a tooltip nerf, which is what I suggested several times in the past (100% proc rate, lower tooltip).

hoangdz · January 22

Alright, here are some test videos since some of yall think I'm "spreadsheet warriors".

1st clip, I won the duel:

https://youtu.be/FCmgZjBfjZM

2nd clip, I lagged out and lost:

https://youtu.be/wTKZCqA5xiw

3rd clip, I won the duel. Inhale even bugged out at one point (did not cast despite having enough mag):

https://youtu.be/l8Wwj6pp0tY

My stats:

These players are all veterans in the game. These duels don't look lopsided because you are looking at the top 1-5% fights. If I were to fight an average player, there is NO CHANCE they are going to compete at all. Did you see me have any sustain issues against a Kjalnar/Merciless/Fissure build used by a competent player? No. in fact, I did not heavy attack a single time in those 3 duels. If I were using my pure Sorc build with Dark Deal, I would have been heavy attacking much more often.

Dropped Dark Deal for Inhale. Did not use tri pots, recovery food, or recovery CP. Swapping to double armor potions allowed me to run Infused staff back bar front bar, 3x Infused jewelries, and STILL end up with 34k max resistances when Bloodspawn procced. You can NEVER pull this off with Dark Deal or any sustain skill currently on live. Soul of Flame is straight up carrying sustain in a max resource build.

Soul of Flame critted for 6.7k with full pen. This is an AoE delayed burst ability with respectable damage. In fact, I will leave these tooltips here for you to see:

Soul of Flame has almost as much damage as Fissure's initial tick, while also giving a massive amount of sustain.

If you don't think this is imbalanced, then it's either a legitimate skill issue, or you have some hidden agenda. Inhale needs to be adjusted, badly.

hoangdz · January 22

This is what will happen if Inhale is allowed on live:

Essence Thief isn't included in this btw. Essence is equivalent to ~600 weapon damage.

If Inhale were to stay the same, I would run 64 points in HP and double armor potion. I will be sitting at 43k+ resists and 40k HP, while having the sustain of a 2.5k regen build. I will also have enough damage to completely wipe the floor with an average player and when Onslaught is up, I will be 1- shotting them. The only way for them to kill me is by using Onslaught. Corrosive won't matter to me because I already have Streak to kite. They cannot pressure my sustain because Inhale is absolutely broken. To the average player, this IS an unkillable build.

This will be the path that every good player builds. They may use another set, but fundamentally, they will build into max resistances with as little sustain as possible to milk out the most damage/defense. While Onslaught/Corrosive are their own issues, Inhale is the other 30% of the problem, as it allows you to do things you could never do on the live server.

MXVIIDREAM · January 22

All you’ve proved in these clips is that essence Theif carried your stam sustain more than inhale with a pool much bigger than most players not many people with 30k stam and being at the lowest point and using inhale correctly you rarely get above 10k with a resorce pool close to 10k more than most people
two although not cc’ing you (you lost one duel) on cooldown still had you struggling for stam lucky you run essence Thief and it seems you’ve specced into ardent flame so you’re also seeing an improvement to your sustain from cumbustion aswell
first guy you dueled was he afk or just never dueled before (oh wait that’s your friend in this thread isnt it ?)
although you’ve lost your free clense, heal and crit damage from animal companions

Onslaught carried you more than anything
You also showcased just how weak the as the new flames of oblivion and inhale (specifically inhale you said it hit for only 6.7k with the onslaught crit and crazy full pen bonus 6.7k is nothing for the damage morph of the skill a 10k crit with full pen would have been worth talking about ) combined almost done less damage then hurricane alone with 100% uptime so they could probably do with a buff
Thanks for sharing your findings

hoangdz · January 22

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

the first guy you dueled was he afk or just never dueled before
The other two although not cc’ing you on cooldown still had you struggling for stam lucky you run essence Theif or you’d have had no chance
All you’ve proved in these clips is that essence Theif carried your stam sustain more than inhale with a pool much bigger than most players not many people with 30k stam and being at the lowest point and using inhale correctly you rarely get above 10k with a resorce pool close to 10k more than most people
Onslaught carried you more than anything
You also showcased just how weak the as the new flames of oblivion and inhale combined almost done less damage then hurricane alone with 100% uptime so they could probably do with a buff
Thanks for sharing your findings

Biased is always biased, move along

MXVIIDREAM · January 22

6.7k soul of flame
Actually let’s just highlight that!
you have a huge huge almost capped crit modifier
Nearly 6k weapon damage
And ontop of that you had the new onslaught buff
Crit garenteed
And 100% pen
and you’re saying that 6.7k is respectable damage for damage morph of this skill you can’t be serious that’s so exceptionally weak
and not even slightly comparable to delayed damage of other skills not even as hard hitting as the initial hit of sub assault which for some reason you compared it too
Not bias at all you can’t say that’s good by any means

Guess this will hit about 3k crits for those of us that aren’t abusing onslaught

hoangdz · January 22

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

All you’ve proved in these clips is that essence Theif carried your stam sustain more than inhale with a pool much bigger than most players not many people with 30k stam and being at the lowest point and using inhale correctly you rarely get above 10k with a resorce pool close to 10k more than most people
two although not cc’ing you (you lost one duel) on cooldown still had you struggling for stam lucky you run essence Thief and it seems you’ve specced into ardent flame so you’re also seeing an improvement to your sustain from cumbustion aswell
first guy you dueled was he afk or just never dueled before (oh wait that’s your friend in this thread isnt it ?)
although you’ve lost your free clense, heal and crit damage from animal companions

Onslaught carried you more than anything
You also showcased just how weak the as the new flames of oblivion and inhale (specifically inhale you said it hit for only 6.7k with the onslaught crit and crazy full pen bonus 6.7k is nothing for the damage morph of the skill a 10k crit with full pen would have been worth talking about ) combined almost done less damage then hurricane alone with 100% uptime so they could probably do with a buff
Thanks for sharing your findings

My guy completely glossed over the screenshot showing Fissure and Soul of Flame having close tooltips. It's like talking to a brick wall.

I could literally wear 3 tank sets with zero sustain sets and you would still find some irrelevant reason to defend Inhale lol. You have demonstrated so much biasness in your comments, not only glossing over what I've presented, but also attacking premises I never made, that it's actually pointless to have any meaningful discussion with you.

This is exactly what happened when Hardened Ward was broken. People like you argued like this, ignoring the premise that is being discussed and arguing things that aren't. The funny thing is I so far I have been right in the concerns I brought up

Whether or not Inhale gets adjusted, I will abuse it when it goes live. I've done my job here

hoangdz · January 22

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

6.7k soul of flame
Actually let’s just highlight that!
you have a huge huge almost capped crit modifier
Nearly 6k weapon damage
And ontop of that you had the new onslaught buff
Crit garenteed
And 100% pen
and you’re saying that 6.7k is respectable damage for damage morph of this skill you can’t be serious that’s so exceptionally weak
and not even slightly comparable to delayed damage of other skills pretty not even as hard hitting as the initial hit of sub assault which for some reason you compared it too
Not bias at all you can’t say that’s good by any means

6.7k is a reasonable amount of burst damage for a skill that also has god tier sustain. If you had any sort of respect for combat balance you would understand why 6.7k is a very good number. Judging from your comments I wouldn't be surprised if you want SoF to crit for 10k while giving the best sustain in the game. Just stop bro.

MXVIIDREAM · January 22

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

All you’ve proved in these clips is that essence Theif carried your stam sustain more than inhale with a pool much bigger than most players not many people with 30k stam and being at the lowest point and using inhale correctly you rarely get above 10k with a resorce pool close to 10k more than most people
two although not cc’ing you (you lost one duel) on cooldown still had you struggling for stam lucky you run essence Thief and it seems you’ve specced into ardent flame so you’re also seeing an improvement to your sustain from cumbustion aswell
first guy you dueled was he afk or just never dueled before (oh wait that’s your friend in this thread isnt it ?)
although you’ve lost your free clense, heal and crit damage from animal companions

Onslaught carried you more than anything
You also showcased just how weak the as the new flames of oblivion and inhale (specifically inhale you said it hit for only 6.7k with the onslaught crit and crazy full pen bonus 6.7k is nothing for the damage morph of the skill a 10k crit with full pen would have been worth talking about ) combined almost done less damage then hurricane alone with 100% uptime so they could probably do with a buff
Thanks for sharing your findings

My guy completely glossed over the screenshot showing Fissure and Soul of Flame having close tooltips. It's like talking to a brick wall.

I could literally wear 3 tank sets with zero sustain sets and you would still find some irrelevant reason to defend Inhale lol. You have demonstrated so much biasness in your comments, not only glossing over what I've presented, but also attacking premises I never made, that it's actually pointless to have any meaningful discussion with you.

This is exactly what happened when Hardened Ward was broken. People like you argued like this, ignoring the premise that is being discussed and arguing things that aren't. The funny thing is I so far I have been right in the concerns I brought up

Whether or not Inhale gets adjusted, I will abuse it when it goes live. I've done my job here

No I didn’t if you actually read my comment you’d understand that I myself also compared the example you gave

How’s it bias when you and two others on this thread have an issue with it (ones your friend and the other is now 50/50)
The other 60 odd people that have commented against you shows a significant ratio that can’t be ignored

I actually don’t think I’ve seen someone get ratio’d this hard ever 😂

hoangdz · January 22

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

All you’ve proved in these clips is that essence Theif carried your stam sustain more than inhale with a pool much bigger than most players not many people with 30k stam and being at the lowest point and using inhale correctly you rarely get above 10k with a resorce pool close to 10k more than most people
two although not cc’ing you (you lost one duel) on cooldown still had you struggling for stam lucky you run essence Thief and it seems you’ve specced into ardent flame so you’re also seeing an improvement to your sustain from cumbustion aswell
first guy you dueled was he afk or just never dueled before (oh wait that’s your friend in this thread isnt it ?)
although you’ve lost your free clense, heal and crit damage from animal companions

Onslaught carried you more than anything
You also showcased just how weak the as the new flames of oblivion and inhale (specifically inhale you said it hit for only 6.7k with the onslaught crit and crazy full pen bonus 6.7k is nothing for the damage morph of the skill a 10k crit with full pen would have been worth talking about ) combined almost done less damage then hurricane alone with 100% uptime so they could probably do with a buff
Thanks for sharing your findings

My guy completely glossed over the screenshot showing Fissure and Soul of Flame having close tooltips. It's like talking to a brick wall.

I could literally wear 3 tank sets with zero sustain sets and you would still find some irrelevant reason to defend Inhale lol. You have demonstrated so much biasness in your comments, not only glossing over what I've presented, but also attacking premises I never made, that it's actually pointless to have any meaningful discussion with you.

This is exactly what happened when Hardened Ward was broken. People like you argued like this, ignoring the premise that is being discussed and arguing things that aren't. The funny thing is I so far I have been right in the concerns I brought up

Whether or not Inhale gets adjusted, I will abuse it when it goes live. I've done my job here

No I didn’t if you actually read my comment you’d understand that I myself also compared the example you gave

How’s it bias when you and two others on this thread have an issue with it (ones your friend and the other is now 50/50)
The other 60 odd people that have commented against you shows a significant ratio that can’t be ignored

I actually don’t think I’ve seen someone get ratio’d this hard ever 😂

Your comment brings up irrelevant points. It doesn't matter if I used Onslaught or Corrosive or whatever, and neither was the Win/Loss. The actual issue I wanted to show with those 3 duel videos was that I could comfortably sustain with 900 mag and 1100 stam recovery and ZERO tri pots. You bringing up Essence Thief was a valid point, but I never needed the stam sustain from it to begin with, and even if I swap to another set, you would have still found something irrelevant to nitpick instead of focusing on the actual point being discussed. Not only that, but Soul of Flame being an offensive ability already makes it better than pure sustain abilities. I was practically casting it off cooldown as part of my offensive rotation, whilst also boosting my sustain. This ability is basically identical to Essence Thief in function, and that makes it one of the best skills in the game, period.

Getting ratio-ed on the forums doesn't matter when more than half of them aren't good enough at PvP to present any meaningful arguments. I've gotten ratio-ed harder than this thread when I created the Hardened Ward nerf thread, and I ended up being right several months later when people found out it was in fact broken. News flash, most people on the forums argue off emotions, not numbers and in-game evidence. People like @Vaqual , @Turtle_Bot , and @xylena_lazarow , even if we don't come to an agreement, are still arguing in better faith than the majority of forum users.

hoangdz · January 22

Notice how other than Xylena, I am the only other person to present any sort of in-game evidence for my claims. Almost everyone here who is defending Soul of Flame aren't willing to post anything to back up their claims. "Soul of Flame doesn't do enough damage", sure thing bro, care to post your build and CMX values so we can see if the skill is lackluster or you just didn't build correctly? "Soul of Flame still doesn't let me sustain as well", sure bro, care to post a video of your gameplay so we can see if the skill doesn't sustain well or you actually didn't play well?

My experience on the PTS has been otherwise, and I'm happy to use Inhale and duel everybody here.

ZhuJiuyin · January 22

hoangdz wrote: »

My experience on the PTS has been otherwise, and I'm happy to use Inhale and duel everybody here.

In PvE, the most objective data is based on eso-log and CMX.

However, this is not the case in PvP because there are too many variables and exceptions, making quantification difficult.

But, after bounties and numerous duel invitations, no one can offer any other more reliable conclusions, then I think everyone else will see the answer, or at least seriously consider the possibilities proposed by hoangdz.

BattleAxe · January 22

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

All you’ve proved in these clips is that essence Theif carried your stam sustain more than inhale with a pool much bigger than most players not many people with 30k stam and being at the lowest point and using inhale correctly you rarely get above 10k with a resorce pool close to 10k more than most people
two although not cc’ing you (you lost one duel) on cooldown still had you struggling for stam lucky you run essence Thief and it seems you’ve specced into ardent flame so you’re also seeing an improvement to your sustain from cumbustion aswell
first guy you dueled was he afk or just never dueled before (oh wait that’s your friend in this thread isnt it ?)
although you’ve lost your free clense, heal and crit damage from animal companions

Onslaught carried you more than anything
You also showcased just how weak the as the new flames of oblivion and inhale (specifically inhale you said it hit for only 6.7k with the onslaught crit and crazy full pen bonus 6.7k is nothing for the damage morph of the skill a 10k crit with full pen would have been worth talking about ) combined almost done less damage then hurricane alone with 100% uptime so they could probably do with a buff
Thanks for sharing your findings

My guy completely glossed over the screenshot showing Fissure and Soul of Flame having close tooltips. It's like talking to a brick wall.

I could literally wear 3 tank sets with zero sustain sets and you would still find some irrelevant reason to defend Inhale lol. You have demonstrated so much biasness in your comments, not only glossing over what I've presented, but also attacking premises I never made, that it's actually pointless to have any meaningful discussion with you.

This is exactly what happened when Hardened Ward was broken. People like you argued like this, ignoring the premise that is being discussed and arguing things that aren't. The funny thing is I so far I have been right in the concerns I brought up

Whether or not Inhale gets adjusted, I will abuse it when it goes live. I've done my job here

No I didn’t if you actually read my comment you’d understand that I myself also compared the example you gave

How’s it bias when you and two others on this thread have an issue with it (ones your friend and the other is now 50/50)
The other 60 odd people that have commented against you shows a significant ratio that can’t be ignored

I actually don’t think I’ve seen someone get ratio’d this hard ever 😂

Your comment brings up irrelevant points. It doesn't matter if I used Onslaught or Corrosive or whatever, and neither was the Win/Loss. The actual issue I wanted to show with those 3 duel videos was that I could comfortably sustain with 900 mag and 1100 stam recovery and ZERO tri pots. You bringing up Essence Thief was a valid point, but I never needed the stam sustain from it to begin with, and even if I swap to another set, you would have still found something irrelevant to nitpick instead of focusing on the actual point being discussed. Not only that, but Soul of Flame being an offensive ability already makes it better than pure sustain abilities. I was practically casting it off cooldown as part of my offensive rotation, whilst also boosting my sustain. This ability is basically identical to Essence Thief in function, and that makes it one of the best skills in the game, period.

Getting ratio-ed on the forums doesn't matter when more than half of them aren't good enough at PvP to present any meaningful arguments. I've gotten ratio-ed harder than this thread when I created the Hardened Ward nerf thread, and I ended up being right several months later when people found out it was in fact broken. News flash, most people on the forums argue off emotions, not numbers and in-game evidence. People like @Vaqual , @Turtle_Bot , and @xylena_lazarow , even if we don't come to an agreement, are still arguing in better faith than the majority of forum users.

You just defeated you own argument here 900 mag recovery and 1100 stam recovery. You claimed inhale was so good you could build zero recovery and sustain indefinitely with inhale alone. So I hate to say it you have not been arguing in good faith. As well as using a set that also helps with sustain.

BattleAxe · January 22

Might I add the comparison to deep fissure is negligible at best you site the first hit to the hit of soul of flame failing to take into account the secondary hit of deep fissure plus the fact it applies both major and minor breach if anything deep fissure is overturned compared to soul of flame

hoangdz · January 22

BattleAxe wrote: »

Might I add the comparison to deep fissure is negligible at best you site the first hit to the hit of soul of flame failing to take into account the secondary hit of deep fissure plus the fact it applies both major and minor breach if anything deep fissure is overturned compared to soul of flame

Inhale has a broken sustain mechanic. This is far more valuable than some major minor breach buff which will be redundant with full pen onslaught and corrosive.