DK's Inhale's sustain change needs to be reverted

BardokRedSnow · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

If you switch netch with inhale you loose you whole animal companio

Jesus, I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely being serious. I literally said "For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale", meaning I'm trying to compare the SUSTAIN portion of these 2 abilities. Please try to understand the message that is being conveyed.

You lose out on 20 percent sustain increase from the passive, an extra free 200 and change stamina or magicka recovery from the skill itself, and most importantly a free cleanse on demand you can spam for free at no cost. Those things add up

Even with the buff the skill is inferior to bull netch, enough that I considered still subclassing one line eventually on the new dk. If they did nerf the skill further it’ll be a dead skill with how it works now only dealing a flat amount of aoe damage

Like have you actually gone into the pts and dueled someone or at least fought something? The sustain is not that good in practice from that skill. It will at best bring dk up some to fight people subclassed, no one will be for instance subbing into dk for inhale the way everyone does animal companion

4416 stamina over 25s => 353 stamina recovery

If you are a stamDK and you have 30k stam, a 10% current missing stam means you are missing 3k stam. Inhale at 3k missing stam will recover 450 stam for first tick, 382 stam for second tick, and 325 stam for 3rd tick, totaling 1157 stam over 4 seconds. That's 578 recovery. Inhale at 90% max stam left is already giving almost double the recovery equivalent than Netch.

And yes, I have dueled people on PTS. I have dueled @Alchimiste1 and @Pelican on PTS. Both of them are top tier players. I think you are overexaggerating the sustain portion of Animal Companion. It doesn't match what I've experienced.

Again for someone that claims to have tested this youre ignoring the fact that this requires regular casting every four seconds, that is a major component you're conveniently leaving out

Whereas bull netch is there whether you're blocking, getting cc'd, cast interrupted, etc etc and only requires one activation every 25 seconds on top of the 20 percent resources increase in addition to the additive resources gain and a cleanse.

These things matter.

Decimus · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I don't think the people defending Inhale fully grasp the impact of this ability on their build. A normal build requires allocating stats between damage, sustain, healing, and defense. Even the current meta subclass builds on the live server, such as Assassination/Animal/Ritual or Assassination/Animal/Storm Calling, require trading one stat for another.

For example, this is a meta openworld build on the live server:

The empty slots are for Contingency and Healing Soul. Notice how I still need to use Orzoga food to sustain despite having Netch. This isn't some arbitrary claim. I've asked several users of this build and they all said that sustain felt best with this food. Also notice how I'm using 3x protective jewelries, as well as Fortified red CP to bring my resistances to 35k after Bloodspawn. Again, these traits are used because that's what the veteran players feel comfortable with, not some random number. This build looks like it has everything, and while I agree with that notion, the truth is you are still trading damage and healing (3x Infused jewelries, Sugar Skull food) for sustain (Orzoga food) and tankiness (3x Protective jewelries).

For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale? As demonstrated in several video clips above, Inhale allows you to do 3 things:

1) Switch from Orzoga to Sugar Skulls
2) Use double armor potions => switch from 3x Protective to 3x Infused
3) Drop Sustained By Suffering CP for Celerity CP

As a result, your max stats now go from:

30131 hp => 30470 hp
22010 stam => 26515 stam
17524 mag => 22029 mag
4979 wd => 5378 wd
35398 spell resist => 37108 spell resist
34672 physical resist => 36382 physical resist
10% extra movement speed

You now have more HP, max mag, and max stam. Your tooltip damage for Surprise Attack goes from 9763 to 10886. Your healing also increases. You also GAIN more armor despite dropping 3x Protective. You also move faster than before.

All of these stat increases happen because of ONE skill. No other skill on the live server can allow you to improve your stats this much. I have tried it with Dark Deal, but the sustain you get from it cannot match Inhale. With this ability, you can afford to reallocate all of your recovery stats to damage, mitigation, and mobility. This doesn't show up on the tooltip value, but it's something a good theory crafter will notice right away when they test Inhale.

Random question, but why do you run both Netch and Crit Surge on your "meta" build?

Also, the actual dueling meta runs Restoring Light, not Storm Calling... and is absolutely capable of running Bewitched, full damage sets and tanking in rune forever. In fact, you kind of want to run Bewitched on any build on Live that is blocking regens often anyway.

Armor pots also might not be the best idea in a meta that's going to be full of Onslaughts and Corrosives...

To the people complaining about Heart of Flame... I'd recommend actually testing things on PTS; go see how many unkillable permablock builds exist, or how it's "impossible" to run out of resources... Because so far I've seen every duel end one way or another, and that's just 1v1s where you have one person on the Ardent Flame enjoyer, not multiple - situations where they're allowed to stand still and tank rather than having to LOS or kite a zerg.

Turns out, it's not that easy hanging around at 5k~ Magicka or stamina most of the fight because that's where your 0 base sustains and other sustain skills will immediately put you: in a very risky situation. In PvE this sustain ability will also result in a DPS loss if you're spending too many globals on it.

You run Netch in openworld to get 5% crit damage from Animal Companion passive, some extra sustain, and a small cleanse.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I specifically said "meta openworld build", which absolutely uses Storm Calling and Orzoga instead of Sugar Skulls. I even included Animal/Assassination/Restoring Light as one other meta subclass build in my comment. No idea why you are arguing something I never claimed.

Uh what? Armor pots are still good to survive damage when Onslaught/Corrosive isn't up, or against people who don't run those skills. Using your logic, I might as well not build any resistances because Onslaughts and Corrosives are going to be meta?

I have been using Heart of Flame of PTS, what do you mean? I have been on PTS for the past week testing against players using HOF and using it myself. Fights on PTS end because of Corrosive and Onslaught, both of which are their own issues. That doesn't reduce HOF's potential whatsoever.

You know what, I'll just record an actual fight the next time I'm online, because it's getting kind of annoying at this point.

Ok I'm just going to guess then: the reason you have both Netch and Crit Surge (both provide Major Sorcery/Brutality) on your screenshot is because you meant to put the strongest (open world) skill in the game there: Streak.

So on your own "meta" build you don't actually even need the "400-500 mag or stam regen" Netch provides, because sustain is extremely easy in this game.

I have also been testing on PTS and you can still build around NB bow as well or use Incap+unlockable CC with burst over Onslaught or Corrosive for example. You can also still build around things like Blastbones+Streak with Relequen etc and melt through people trying to tank with HoF because they're risking a lot by being low resources and unable to really heal up.

In other words, there's absolutely no problem with HoF or any defensive/sustain skill in the game right now. And yes, given how certain things look like and how much people like the "new thing", I don't think the investment into armor is going to be worth it next patch when half the people you fight counter it, compared to rn where Corro is a rarity and Onslaught a straight up unicorn outside of gankers.

What needs adjustments is the fact that strongest builds on PTS still subclass for crit damage and overturned CCs like Javelin to combo their Onslaughts with... And they'll still subclass Storm Calling for the strongest mobility skill/Onslaught buffing passives in the game.

If anything DK on PTS needs crit resistance on Draconic Power or something and further adjustments, not nerfs on what's good (not "overpowered"), fun and unique about it.

No, I actually run Netch there for what it is: free sustain, free cleanse, and free passive heal. Why would you run Streak when Warden Charm exists?

HoF is not just a sustain skill though. It's a delayed burst with a sustain function that is currently performing better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. Just the fact that it can be used as part of your offensive rotation already makes it better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. This is a non-argument.

Your suggestions are going to make DK the single best class next update, and quite frankly that is just going to shift the meta from what we have on live to all DKs. That isn't making the game more fun, just repackaging what's currently broken into another form.

Yes, that is precisely what they should aim for with these reworks: make whatever they rework strong and worth playing. It sounds to me like you just enjoy subclassing and want to keep the status quo that majority of the player base hates.

Also no Streak (a skill most players have called "overpowered" at one point or another btw) in open world... to double dip into Major buffs. You must be trolling at this point.

You know what, if you're not using Streak (the strongest skill in the game in one of the strongest skill lines in the game) then maybe HoF is overpowered for your build and thus needs to be nerfed... Damn, didn't think of that. Have you considered maybe subclassing into Ardent Flame then?

Meanwhile anyone actually using the kiting toolkit of Sorcerer and playing around the class strengths can either subclass into Animal Companions/Assassination or use Dark Deal/Conversion like it's meant to be used. And hey, when they buff sorcerer at the end of the year maybe Dark Magic can be an overall better skill line than it is right now... Or they can turn these reworks into a farce by listening to people who get ratio'd in post likes and make sure no class rework is worth getting excited about because it'll be nerfed to mediocrity just so that the 3 people who enjoy subclassing can keep subclassing.

Also if you think people need to "build around recovery" go fight the Animal Companions Assassination Restoring Light builds around with Essence Rallying Balorgh Mono, you will not run them out of resources and they very much can run Bewitched very easily, this is very obvious to anyone who plays the game at a high skill level.

Why would you not double dip into major buffs when the skill itself is good enough to justify doing so? That's like saying I shouldn't run a source of Brutality because Jabs already give it.

Again, the build I showed you isn't Essence Rallying Balorgh Mono. You are clearly speaking from a 1v1 perspective in Alikir. I am strictly talking from an openworld experience. Last time I rmember, you don't even do OW that much? I mean you literally veered the discussion to a "dueling build" when I specifically stated that my example is an openworld version. Sorry, you aren't going to survive 30s kiting 8 people in Animal/Assassination/Restoring while running Sugar Skulls, not even with Essence. I have seen this countless times already in Cyrodiil. It ain't Alikir

Yes, you actually shouldn't double dip into Major buffs if you run Jabs (which has a 10s timer on it btw while Crit Surge & Netch are 20s), that just means your build isn't fully optimized, hence the "meta" in quotations previously. The build you linked would instantly be 10 times better if you ran Ball of Lightning or Streak in place of Crit Surge or even Quick Cloak on the front bar (and BoL in place of bird).

Also I didn't know you managed to test open world 1vX'ing or BGs on PTS and figured out how the balance is there already, that's impressive. Spoilers: the only thing you can test on PTS is duels.

Just for the record: while I've won a dueling tournament, I'm primarily a BG player (where sustain is a lot harder btw) and also the person with highest WR (75%) & KDR (52.8) on either megaserver. Not a big fan of running around in a ball group in Cyrodiil, hard to see why anyone would ever need to even slot a sustain skill there... or even when playing solo with CPs - all you need is enough mobility, sustain is easy.

Really curious to know though, how do you intend on surviving 8+ people in Cyrodiil while stuck on zero magicka due to build choices (HoF and it's scaling and Bewitched due to HoF) with an ever increasing Streak cost from the kiting? It just doesn't work like that, which you'd learn if you could test outnumbered fights on PTS or having to kite etc.

BardokRedSnow · January 21

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Again, I have tested the skills on PTS. Nobody on PTS whom I've tested with have said Inhale is balanced. If they disagreed with me, it's because they want to wait until ZOS buffs the remaining classes, not because they think Inhale is balanced.

This bolded part is what it boils down to for me personally.

The skill is clearly not balanced when looking at it compared to existing (pre-refresh) classes, however IF every single class being reworked is going to jump to this sort of power level, then I am fine leaving the skill as is and letting DKs have their moment in the sun until we get warden next season (then DK will have to share with warden) and Sorc later in the year (which DK and Warden will have to share with Sorc). If skills like this prove to still be too problematic after the next couple of classes are released even with their refresh, then look at adjusting this skill to bring it more into line with "the new standard".

P.S. Not sure if I mentioned it on this thread or not, but I have mentioned it many times in other threads, but my preferred way of releasing the class updates would have been to have them as "experimental content" on PTS until all 7 classes have been refreshed, then release all of them at the same time as the "new power baseline". The issue with this is that idk if ESO can last another 2 years without any changes at all (probably why the classes are being released 1 by 1, to give players something fun to play with while this refresh project and other things that will take time are worked on).

This is the part Im not getting as far as people saying its not balanced. This is the obvious intent of the refresh, and its inevitable that reworked classes will be stronger pure vs the ones not refreshed, however people keep forgetting that subclassing will remain a thing and its still severely broken and will be even after DK refreshes.

None of the top sweats I see are subclassing using dk skills, which only highlights the fact that DK is the most in need of a refresh.

Nser · January 21

this is dragon knight dont compare it with other class

MincMincMinc · January 21

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I don't think the people defending Inhale fully grasp the impact of this ability on their build. A normal build requires allocating stats between damage, sustain, healing, and defense. Even the current meta subclass builds on the live server, such as Assassination/Animal/Ritual or Assassination/Animal/Storm Calling, require trading one stat for another.

For example, this is a meta openworld build on the live server:

The empty slots are for Contingency and Healing Soul. Notice how I still need to use Orzoga food to sustain despite having Netch. This isn't some arbitrary claim. I've asked several users of this build and they all said that sustain felt best with this food. Also notice how I'm using 3x protective jewelries, as well as Fortified red CP to bring my resistances to 35k after Bloodspawn. Again, these traits are used because that's what the veteran players feel comfortable with, not some random number. This build looks like it has everything, and while I agree with that notion, the truth is you are still trading damage and healing (3x Infused jewelries, Sugar Skull food) for sustain (Orzoga food) and tankiness (3x Protective jewelries).

For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale? As demonstrated in several video clips above, Inhale allows you to do 3 things:

1) Switch from Orzoga to Sugar Skulls
2) Use double armor potions => switch from 3x Protective to 3x Infused
3) Drop Sustained By Suffering CP for Celerity CP

As a result, your max stats now go from:

30131 hp => 30470 hp
22010 stam => 26515 stam
17524 mag => 22029 mag
4979 wd => 5378 wd
35398 spell resist => 37108 spell resist
34672 physical resist => 36382 physical resist
10% extra movement speed

You now have more HP, max mag, and max stam. Your tooltip damage for Surprise Attack goes from 9763 to 10886. Your healing also increases. You also GAIN more armor despite dropping 3x Protective. You also move faster than before.

All of these stat increases happen because of ONE skill. No other skill on the live server can allow you to improve your stats this much. I have tried it with Dark Deal, but the sustain you get from it cannot match Inhale. With this ability, you can afford to reallocate all of your recovery stats to damage, mitigation, and mobility. This doesn't show up on the tooltip value, but it's something a good theory crafter will notice right away when they test Inhale.

Random question, but why do you run both Netch and Crit Surge on your "meta" build?

Also, the actual dueling meta runs Restoring Light, not Storm Calling... and is absolutely capable of running Bewitched, full damage sets and tanking in rune forever. In fact, you kind of want to run Bewitched on any build on Live that is blocking regens often anyway.

Armor pots also might not be the best idea in a meta that's going to be full of Onslaughts and Corrosives...

To the people complaining about Heart of Flame... I'd recommend actually testing things on PTS; go see how many unkillable permablock builds exist, or how it's "impossible" to run out of resources... Because so far I've seen every duel end one way or another, and that's just 1v1s where you have one person on the Ardent Flame enjoyer, not multiple - situations where they're allowed to stand still and tank rather than having to LOS or kite a zerg.

Turns out, it's not that easy hanging around at 5k~ Magicka or stamina most of the fight because that's where your 0 base sustains and other sustain skills will immediately put you: in a very risky situation. In PvE this sustain ability will also result in a DPS loss if you're spending too many globals on it.

You run Netch in openworld to get 5% crit damage from Animal Companion passive, some extra sustain, and a small cleanse.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I specifically said "meta openworld build", which absolutely uses Storm Calling and Orzoga instead of Sugar Skulls. I even included Animal/Assassination/Restoring Light as one other meta subclass build in my comment. No idea why you are arguing something I never claimed.

Uh what? Armor pots are still good to survive damage when Onslaught/Corrosive isn't up, or against people who don't run those skills. Using your logic, I might as well not build any resistances because Onslaughts and Corrosives are going to be meta?

I have been using Heart of Flame of PTS, what do you mean? I have been on PTS for the past week testing against players using HOF and using it myself. Fights on PTS end because of Corrosive and Onslaught, both of which are their own issues. That doesn't reduce HOF's potential whatsoever.

You know what, I'll just record an actual fight the next time I'm online, because it's getting kind of annoying at this point.

Ok I'm just going to guess then: the reason you have both Netch and Crit Surge (both provide Major Sorcery/Brutality) on your screenshot is because you meant to put the strongest (open world) skill in the game there: Streak.

So on your own "meta" build you don't actually even need the "400-500 mag or stam regen" Netch provides, because sustain is extremely easy in this game.

I have also been testing on PTS and you can still build around NB bow as well or use Incap+unlockable CC with burst over Onslaught or Corrosive for example. You can also still build around things like Blastbones+Streak with Relequen etc and melt through people trying to tank with HoF because they're risking a lot by being low resources and unable to really heal up.

In other words, there's absolutely no problem with HoF or any defensive/sustain skill in the game right now. And yes, given how certain things look like and how much people like the "new thing", I don't think the investment into armor is going to be worth it next patch when half the people you fight counter it, compared to rn where Corro is a rarity and Onslaught a straight up unicorn outside of gankers.

What needs adjustments is the fact that strongest builds on PTS still subclass for crit damage and overturned CCs like Javelin to combo their Onslaughts with... And they'll still subclass Storm Calling for the strongest mobility skill/Onslaught buffing passives in the game.

If anything DK on PTS needs crit resistance on Draconic Power or something and further adjustments, not nerfs on what's good (not "overpowered"), fun and unique about it.

No, I actually run Netch there for what it is: free sustain, free cleanse, and free passive heal. Why would you run Streak when Warden Charm exists?

HoF is not just a sustain skill though. It's a delayed burst with a sustain function that is currently performing better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. Just the fact that it can be used as part of your offensive rotation already makes it better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. This is a non-argument.

Your suggestions are going to make DK the single best class next update, and quite frankly that is just going to shift the meta from what we have on live to all DKs. That isn't making the game more fun, just repackaging what's currently broken into another form.

Yes, that is precisely what they should aim for with these reworks: make whatever they rework strong and worth playing. It sounds to me like you just enjoy subclassing and want to keep the status quo that majority of the player base hates.

Also no Streak (a skill most players have called "overpowered" at one point or another btw) in open world... to double dip into Major buffs. You must be trolling at this point.

You know what, if you're not using Streak (the strongest skill in the game in one of the strongest skill lines in the game) then maybe HoF is overpowered for your build and thus needs to be nerfed... Damn, didn't think of that. Have you considered maybe subclassing into Ardent Flame then?

Meanwhile anyone actually using the kiting toolkit of Sorcerer and playing around the class strengths can either subclass into Animal Companions/Assassination or use Dark Deal/Conversion like it's meant to be used. And hey, when they buff sorcerer at the end of the year maybe Dark Magic can be an overall better skill line than it is right now... Or they can turn these reworks into a farce by listening to people who get ratio'd in post likes and make sure no class rework is worth getting excited about because it'll be nerfed to mediocrity just so that the 3 people who enjoy subclassing can keep subclassing.

Also if you think people need to "build around recovery" go fight the Animal Companions Assassination Restoring Light builds around with Essence Rallying Balorgh Mono, you will not run them out of resources and they very much can run Bewitched very easily, this is very obvious to anyone who plays the game at a high skill level.

I am a pure Sorc...

Not in the screenshot you linked, unless your pure sorc somehow has shalks and bow proc. As a pure sorc you should know the value of Streak and how your class plays; Streak->Dark Deal/Conversion. Try that with HoF and you'll find yourself getting no value from the AoE explosion and you'll have a hard time streaking around when at <10k Magicka most of the time (to get value out of HoF).

Despite of this, could they buff Dark Deal/Conversion further, rework a lot of things in Dark Magic and other Sorc skill lines etc similar to how DK was reworked? Yes, I'm personally looking forward to that as someone who also plays sorc a lot and would prefer to play it without subclassing in order to optimize it.

Just gotta point out here that you are trying to say that new HOF is not that crazy compared to darkdeal, but then in the following line say dardeal could be reworked and buffed up to HOF.

I'm just going off the notion that zos needs to blow people out of the water to get past the bad press associated with subclassing. So they are just going to powercreep everything until reworks are over.......Then they are probably going to leave it that way and never unpower creep it as things normally go. We shouldn't be comparing HOF to unreworked skills and instead be showing whether it should exist next to other sustain sources in the game..............Which we know zos has messed up the overall balance of sustain in the game......so really its all pointless.

Yall are better off arguing to prevent the more annoying abuse cases this will lead to like one click wonder permablock tanks. Just change the resource return to regen instead so atleast permablock builds lose half the resource ticks.

hoangdz · January 21

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I don't think the people defending Inhale fully grasp the impact of this ability on their build. A normal build requires allocating stats between damage, sustain, healing, and defense. Even the current meta subclass builds on the live server, such as Assassination/Animal/Ritual or Assassination/Animal/Storm Calling, require trading one stat for another.

For example, this is a meta openworld build on the live server:

The empty slots are for Contingency and Healing Soul. Notice how I still need to use Orzoga food to sustain despite having Netch. This isn't some arbitrary claim. I've asked several users of this build and they all said that sustain felt best with this food. Also notice how I'm using 3x protective jewelries, as well as Fortified red CP to bring my resistances to 35k after Bloodspawn. Again, these traits are used because that's what the veteran players feel comfortable with, not some random number. This build looks like it has everything, and while I agree with that notion, the truth is you are still trading damage and healing (3x Infused jewelries, Sugar Skull food) for sustain (Orzoga food) and tankiness (3x Protective jewelries).

For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale? As demonstrated in several video clips above, Inhale allows you to do 3 things:

1) Switch from Orzoga to Sugar Skulls
2) Use double armor potions => switch from 3x Protective to 3x Infused
3) Drop Sustained By Suffering CP for Celerity CP

As a result, your max stats now go from:

30131 hp => 30470 hp
22010 stam => 26515 stam
17524 mag => 22029 mag
4979 wd => 5378 wd
35398 spell resist => 37108 spell resist
34672 physical resist => 36382 physical resist
10% extra movement speed

You now have more HP, max mag, and max stam. Your tooltip damage for Surprise Attack goes from 9763 to 10886. Your healing also increases. You also GAIN more armor despite dropping 3x Protective. You also move faster than before.

All of these stat increases happen because of ONE skill. No other skill on the live server can allow you to improve your stats this much. I have tried it with Dark Deal, but the sustain you get from it cannot match Inhale. With this ability, you can afford to reallocate all of your recovery stats to damage, mitigation, and mobility. This doesn't show up on the tooltip value, but it's something a good theory crafter will notice right away when they test Inhale.

Random question, but why do you run both Netch and Crit Surge on your "meta" build?

Also, the actual dueling meta runs Restoring Light, not Storm Calling... and is absolutely capable of running Bewitched, full damage sets and tanking in rune forever. In fact, you kind of want to run Bewitched on any build on Live that is blocking regens often anyway.

Armor pots also might not be the best idea in a meta that's going to be full of Onslaughts and Corrosives...

To the people complaining about Heart of Flame... I'd recommend actually testing things on PTS; go see how many unkillable permablock builds exist, or how it's "impossible" to run out of resources... Because so far I've seen every duel end one way or another, and that's just 1v1s where you have one person on the Ardent Flame enjoyer, not multiple - situations where they're allowed to stand still and tank rather than having to LOS or kite a zerg.

Turns out, it's not that easy hanging around at 5k~ Magicka or stamina most of the fight because that's where your 0 base sustains and other sustain skills will immediately put you: in a very risky situation. In PvE this sustain ability will also result in a DPS loss if you're spending too many globals on it.

You run Netch in openworld to get 5% crit damage from Animal Companion passive, some extra sustain, and a small cleanse.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I specifically said "meta openworld build", which absolutely uses Storm Calling and Orzoga instead of Sugar Skulls. I even included Animal/Assassination/Restoring Light as one other meta subclass build in my comment. No idea why you are arguing something I never claimed.

Uh what? Armor pots are still good to survive damage when Onslaught/Corrosive isn't up, or against people who don't run those skills. Using your logic, I might as well not build any resistances because Onslaughts and Corrosives are going to be meta?

I have been using Heart of Flame of PTS, what do you mean? I have been on PTS for the past week testing against players using HOF and using it myself. Fights on PTS end because of Corrosive and Onslaught, both of which are their own issues. That doesn't reduce HOF's potential whatsoever.

You know what, I'll just record an actual fight the next time I'm online, because it's getting kind of annoying at this point.

Ok I'm just going to guess then: the reason you have both Netch and Crit Surge (both provide Major Sorcery/Brutality) on your screenshot is because you meant to put the strongest (open world) skill in the game there: Streak.

So on your own "meta" build you don't actually even need the "400-500 mag or stam regen" Netch provides, because sustain is extremely easy in this game.

I have also been testing on PTS and you can still build around NB bow as well or use Incap+unlockable CC with burst over Onslaught or Corrosive for example. You can also still build around things like Blastbones+Streak with Relequen etc and melt through people trying to tank with HoF because they're risking a lot by being low resources and unable to really heal up.

In other words, there's absolutely no problem with HoF or any defensive/sustain skill in the game right now. And yes, given how certain things look like and how much people like the "new thing", I don't think the investment into armor is going to be worth it next patch when half the people you fight counter it, compared to rn where Corro is a rarity and Onslaught a straight up unicorn outside of gankers.

What needs adjustments is the fact that strongest builds on PTS still subclass for crit damage and overturned CCs like Javelin to combo their Onslaughts with... And they'll still subclass Storm Calling for the strongest mobility skill/Onslaught buffing passives in the game.

If anything DK on PTS needs crit resistance on Draconic Power or something and further adjustments, not nerfs on what's good (not "overpowered"), fun and unique about it.

No, I actually run Netch there for what it is: free sustain, free cleanse, and free passive heal. Why would you run Streak when Warden Charm exists?

HoF is not just a sustain skill though. It's a delayed burst with a sustain function that is currently performing better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. Just the fact that it can be used as part of your offensive rotation already makes it better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. This is a non-argument.

Your suggestions are going to make DK the single best class next update, and quite frankly that is just going to shift the meta from what we have on live to all DKs. That isn't making the game more fun, just repackaging what's currently broken into another form.

Yes, that is precisely what they should aim for with these reworks: make whatever they rework strong and worth playing. It sounds to me like you just enjoy subclassing and want to keep the status quo that majority of the player base hates.

Also no Streak (a skill most players have called "overpowered" at one point or another btw) in open world... to double dip into Major buffs. You must be trolling at this point.

You know what, if you're not using Streak (the strongest skill in the game in one of the strongest skill lines in the game) then maybe HoF is overpowered for your build and thus needs to be nerfed... Damn, didn't think of that. Have you considered maybe subclassing into Ardent Flame then?

Meanwhile anyone actually using the kiting toolkit of Sorcerer and playing around the class strengths can either subclass into Animal Companions/Assassination or use Dark Deal/Conversion like it's meant to be used. And hey, when they buff sorcerer at the end of the year maybe Dark Magic can be an overall better skill line than it is right now... Or they can turn these reworks into a farce by listening to people who get ratio'd in post likes and make sure no class rework is worth getting excited about because it'll be nerfed to mediocrity just so that the 3 people who enjoy subclassing can keep subclassing.

Also if you think people need to "build around recovery" go fight the Animal Companions Assassination Restoring Light builds around with Essence Rallying Balorgh Mono, you will not run them out of resources and they very much can run Bewitched very easily, this is very obvious to anyone who plays the game at a high skill level.

Why would you not double dip into major buffs when the skill itself is good enough to justify doing so? That's like saying I shouldn't run a source of Brutality because Jabs already give it.

Again, the build I showed you isn't Essence Rallying Balorgh Mono. You are clearly speaking from a 1v1 perspective in Alikir. I am strictly talking from an openworld experience. Last time I rmember, you don't even do OW that much? I mean you literally veered the discussion to a "dueling build" when I specifically stated that my example is an openworld version. Sorry, you aren't going to survive 30s kiting 8 people in Animal/Assassination/Restoring while running Sugar Skulls, not even with Essence. I have seen this countless times already in Cyrodiil. It ain't Alikir

Yes, you actually shouldn't double dip into Major buffs if you run Jabs (which has a 10s timer on it btw while Crit Surge & Netch are 20s), that just means your build isn't fully optimized, hence the "meta" in quotations previously. The build you linked would instantly be 10 times better if you ran Ball of Lightning or Streak in place of Crit Surge or even Quick Cloak on the front bar (and BoL in place of bird).

Also I didn't know you managed to test open world 1vX'ing or BGs on PTS and figured out how the balance is there already, that's impressive. Spoilers: the only thing you can test on PTS is duels.

Just for the record: I'm primarily a BG player (where sustain is a lot harder btw) and also the person with highest WR (75%) & KDR (52.8) on either megaserver. Not a big fan of running around in a ball group in Cyrodiil, hard to see why anyone would ever need to even slot a sustain skill there... or even when playing solo with CPs - all you need is enough mobility, sustain is easy.

Lol, you are a BG player, while I'm a dueler and 1vXer, so your POV on how builds should be are already different from mine. If you bring that logic of "not double dipping into Major buffs, especially with my Jabs example, you are going to have a hard time in Cyrodiil. That is precisely why I have Netch there and not something else.

On the live server I am already playing with 900 stam recovery and 800 mag recovery in dueling and OW. I can assure you that the PTS version of Inhale is going eventually bring about low regen/high mitigation/high damage builds in both dueling and Cyrodiil. I can 100% claim that Inhale is leagues ahead of Dark Deal in terms of sustain, and if it doesn't get nerfed, then I will happily subclass it for my Sorc build.

BardokRedSnow · January 21

I would be ok with this since the goal of that skill is to sustain you during your burst clearly.

Decimus · January 21

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I don't think the people defending Inhale fully grasp the impact of this ability on their build. A normal build requires allocating stats between damage, sustain, healing, and defense. Even the current meta subclass builds on the live server, such as Assassination/Animal/Ritual or Assassination/Animal/Storm Calling, require trading one stat for another.

For example, this is a meta openworld build on the live server:

The empty slots are for Contingency and Healing Soul. Notice how I still need to use Orzoga food to sustain despite having Netch. This isn't some arbitrary claim. I've asked several users of this build and they all said that sustain felt best with this food. Also notice how I'm using 3x protective jewelries, as well as Fortified red CP to bring my resistances to 35k after Bloodspawn. Again, these traits are used because that's what the veteran players feel comfortable with, not some random number. This build looks like it has everything, and while I agree with that notion, the truth is you are still trading damage and healing (3x Infused jewelries, Sugar Skull food) for sustain (Orzoga food) and tankiness (3x Protective jewelries).

For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale? As demonstrated in several video clips above, Inhale allows you to do 3 things:

1) Switch from Orzoga to Sugar Skulls
2) Use double armor potions => switch from 3x Protective to 3x Infused
3) Drop Sustained By Suffering CP for Celerity CP

As a result, your max stats now go from:

30131 hp => 30470 hp
22010 stam => 26515 stam
17524 mag => 22029 mag
4979 wd => 5378 wd
35398 spell resist => 37108 spell resist
34672 physical resist => 36382 physical resist
10% extra movement speed

You now have more HP, max mag, and max stam. Your tooltip damage for Surprise Attack goes from 9763 to 10886. Your healing also increases. You also GAIN more armor despite dropping 3x Protective. You also move faster than before.

All of these stat increases happen because of ONE skill. No other skill on the live server can allow you to improve your stats this much. I have tried it with Dark Deal, but the sustain you get from it cannot match Inhale. With this ability, you can afford to reallocate all of your recovery stats to damage, mitigation, and mobility. This doesn't show up on the tooltip value, but it's something a good theory crafter will notice right away when they test Inhale.

Random question, but why do you run both Netch and Crit Surge on your "meta" build?

Also, the actual dueling meta runs Restoring Light, not Storm Calling... and is absolutely capable of running Bewitched, full damage sets and tanking in rune forever. In fact, you kind of want to run Bewitched on any build on Live that is blocking regens often anyway.

Armor pots also might not be the best idea in a meta that's going to be full of Onslaughts and Corrosives...

To the people complaining about Heart of Flame... I'd recommend actually testing things on PTS; go see how many unkillable permablock builds exist, or how it's "impossible" to run out of resources... Because so far I've seen every duel end one way or another, and that's just 1v1s where you have one person on the Ardent Flame enjoyer, not multiple - situations where they're allowed to stand still and tank rather than having to LOS or kite a zerg.

Turns out, it's not that easy hanging around at 5k~ Magicka or stamina most of the fight because that's where your 0 base sustains and other sustain skills will immediately put you: in a very risky situation. In PvE this sustain ability will also result in a DPS loss if you're spending too many globals on it.

You run Netch in openworld to get 5% crit damage from Animal Companion passive, some extra sustain, and a small cleanse.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I specifically said "meta openworld build", which absolutely uses Storm Calling and Orzoga instead of Sugar Skulls. I even included Animal/Assassination/Restoring Light as one other meta subclass build in my comment. No idea why you are arguing something I never claimed.

Uh what? Armor pots are still good to survive damage when Onslaught/Corrosive isn't up, or against people who don't run those skills. Using your logic, I might as well not build any resistances because Onslaughts and Corrosives are going to be meta?

I have been using Heart of Flame of PTS, what do you mean? I have been on PTS for the past week testing against players using HOF and using it myself. Fights on PTS end because of Corrosive and Onslaught, both of which are their own issues. That doesn't reduce HOF's potential whatsoever.

You know what, I'll just record an actual fight the next time I'm online, because it's getting kind of annoying at this point.

Ok I'm just going to guess then: the reason you have both Netch and Crit Surge (both provide Major Sorcery/Brutality) on your screenshot is because you meant to put the strongest (open world) skill in the game there: Streak.

So on your own "meta" build you don't actually even need the "400-500 mag or stam regen" Netch provides, because sustain is extremely easy in this game.

I have also been testing on PTS and you can still build around NB bow as well or use Incap+unlockable CC with burst over Onslaught or Corrosive for example. You can also still build around things like Blastbones+Streak with Relequen etc and melt through people trying to tank with HoF because they're risking a lot by being low resources and unable to really heal up.

In other words, there's absolutely no problem with HoF or any defensive/sustain skill in the game right now. And yes, given how certain things look like and how much people like the "new thing", I don't think the investment into armor is going to be worth it next patch when half the people you fight counter it, compared to rn where Corro is a rarity and Onslaught a straight up unicorn outside of gankers.

What needs adjustments is the fact that strongest builds on PTS still subclass for crit damage and overturned CCs like Javelin to combo their Onslaughts with... And they'll still subclass Storm Calling for the strongest mobility skill/Onslaught buffing passives in the game.

If anything DK on PTS needs crit resistance on Draconic Power or something and further adjustments, not nerfs on what's good (not "overpowered"), fun and unique about it.

No, I actually run Netch there for what it is: free sustain, free cleanse, and free passive heal. Why would you run Streak when Warden Charm exists?

HoF is not just a sustain skill though. It's a delayed burst with a sustain function that is currently performing better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. Just the fact that it can be used as part of your offensive rotation already makes it better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. This is a non-argument.

Your suggestions are going to make DK the single best class next update, and quite frankly that is just going to shift the meta from what we have on live to all DKs. That isn't making the game more fun, just repackaging what's currently broken into another form.

Yes, that is precisely what they should aim for with these reworks: make whatever they rework strong and worth playing. It sounds to me like you just enjoy subclassing and want to keep the status quo that majority of the player base hates.

Also no Streak (a skill most players have called "overpowered" at one point or another btw) in open world... to double dip into Major buffs. You must be trolling at this point.

You know what, if you're not using Streak (the strongest skill in the game in one of the strongest skill lines in the game) then maybe HoF is overpowered for your build and thus needs to be nerfed... Damn, didn't think of that. Have you considered maybe subclassing into Ardent Flame then?

Meanwhile anyone actually using the kiting toolkit of Sorcerer and playing around the class strengths can either subclass into Animal Companions/Assassination or use Dark Deal/Conversion like it's meant to be used. And hey, when they buff sorcerer at the end of the year maybe Dark Magic can be an overall better skill line than it is right now... Or they can turn these reworks into a farce by listening to people who get ratio'd in post likes and make sure no class rework is worth getting excited about because it'll be nerfed to mediocrity just so that the 3 people who enjoy subclassing can keep subclassing.

Also if you think people need to "build around recovery" go fight the Animal Companions Assassination Restoring Light builds around with Essence Rallying Balorgh Mono, you will not run them out of resources and they very much can run Bewitched very easily, this is very obvious to anyone who plays the game at a high skill level.

I am a pure Sorc...

Not in the screenshot you linked, unless your pure sorc somehow has shalks and bow proc. As a pure sorc you should know the value of Streak and how your class plays; Streak->Dark Deal/Conversion. Try that with HoF and you'll find yourself getting no value from the AoE explosion and you'll have a hard time streaking around when at <10k Magicka most of the time (to get value out of HoF).

Despite of this, could they buff Dark Deal/Conversion further, rework a lot of things in Dark Magic and other Sorc skill lines etc similar to how DK was reworked? Yes, I'm personally looking forward to that as someone who also plays sorc a lot and would prefer to play it without subclassing in order to optimize it.

Just gotta point out here that you are trying to say that new HOF is not that crazy compared to darkdeal, but then in the following line say dardeal could be reworked and buffed up to HOF.

I'm just going off the notion that zos needs to blow people out of the water to get past the bad press associated with subclassing. So they are just going to powercreep everything until reworks are over.......Then they are probably going to leave it that way and never unpower creep it as things normally go. We shouldn't be comparing HOF to unreworked skills and instead be showing whether it should exist next to other sustain sources in the game..............Which we know zos has messed up the overall balance of sustain in the game......so really its all pointless.

Yall are better off arguing to prevent the more annoying abuse cases this will lead to like one click wonder permablock tanks. Just change the resource return to regen instead so atleast permablock builds lose half the resource ticks.

HoF and Dark Deal/Conversion will always have vastly different use cases and one will be better than the other situationally. Dark Deal/Conversion function with a cast time and are tailored more towards kiting playstyles, so what they could do is add a heal over time to it for example, or slightly increase the resources you gain... that kinda stuff.

Ultimately though, just buffing the skill line would make it a lot more desirable on its own. Frags don't really compare to bow proc or molten whip after all and the rest of the toolkit apart from Negate is just either mid or flat out terrible while Ardent Flame offers delayed burst (or good AoE HoT) with Major Prophecy/Savagery, 8m 70% snare field with health scaling heals, major prot/minor heroism, AoE major defile with a synergy for team, stronger passives for damage etc

Turtle_Bot · January 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Again, I have tested the skills on PTS. Nobody on PTS whom I've tested with have said Inhale is balanced. If they disagreed with me, it's because they want to wait until ZOS buffs the remaining classes, not because they think Inhale is balanced.

This bolded part is what it boils down to for me personally.

The skill is clearly not balanced when looking at it compared to existing (pre-refresh) classes, however IF every single class being reworked is going to jump to this sort of power level, then I am fine leaving the skill as is and letting DKs have their moment in the sun until we get warden next season (then DK will have to share with warden) and Sorc later in the year (which DK and Warden will have to share with Sorc). If skills like this prove to still be too problematic after the next couple of classes are released even with their refresh, then look at adjusting this skill to bring it more into line with "the new standard".

P.S. Not sure if I mentioned it on this thread or not, but I have mentioned it many times in other threads, but my preferred way of releasing the class updates would have been to have them as "experimental content" on PTS until all 7 classes have been refreshed, then release all of them at the same time as the "new power baseline". The issue with this is that idk if ESO can last another 2 years without any changes at all (probably why the classes are being released 1 by 1, to give players something fun to play with while this refresh project and other things that will take time are worked on).

This is the part Im not getting as far as people saying its not balanced. This is the obvious intent of the refresh, and its inevitable that reworked classes will be stronger pure vs the ones not refreshed, however people keep forgetting that subclassing will remain a thing and its still severely broken and will be even after DK refreshes.

None of the top sweats I see are subclassing using dk skills, which only highlights the fact that DK is the most in need of a refresh.

@BardokRedSnow This bolded part of your comment is the main crux of my take on this issue. The key point is that we don't know the power level ZOS expects to come out of these class refreshes (is it supposed to be this strong, or did ZOS overshoot this one because it's the first class?)

I agree that if the power that this post-refresh DK has is where ZOS wants to bring every class up to with their refreshes, then no need to change the skill since DK will have plenty of competition within a few months anyway as more classes get their refreshes.

It is a simple fact though that compared to pre-refresh classes this is not balanced (and that is also expected since it is comparing pre-refresh to post-refresh).

This is why I would like to see ZOS let us know for certain that this DK refresh is the intended new power level of every class, so that we can then give them better feedback on if this skill is fine to leave as is since every class will be here anyway, or if it's not ZOS's intended power level, then there's a potential balance issue with this skill for them to look into.

hoangdz · January 21

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I don't think the people defending Inhale fully grasp the impact of this ability on their build. A normal build requires allocating stats between damage, sustain, healing, and defense. Even the current meta subclass builds on the live server, such as Assassination/Animal/Ritual or Assassination/Animal/Storm Calling, require trading one stat for another.

For example, this is a meta openworld build on the live server:

The empty slots are for Contingency and Healing Soul. Notice how I still need to use Orzoga food to sustain despite having Netch. This isn't some arbitrary claim. I've asked several users of this build and they all said that sustain felt best with this food. Also notice how I'm using 3x protective jewelries, as well as Fortified red CP to bring my resistances to 35k after Bloodspawn. Again, these traits are used because that's what the veteran players feel comfortable with, not some random number. This build looks like it has everything, and while I agree with that notion, the truth is you are still trading damage and healing (3x Infused jewelries, Sugar Skull food) for sustain (Orzoga food) and tankiness (3x Protective jewelries).

For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale? As demonstrated in several video clips above, Inhale allows you to do 3 things:

1) Switch from Orzoga to Sugar Skulls
2) Use double armor potions => switch from 3x Protective to 3x Infused
3) Drop Sustained By Suffering CP for Celerity CP

As a result, your max stats now go from:

30131 hp => 30470 hp
22010 stam => 26515 stam
17524 mag => 22029 mag
4979 wd => 5378 wd
35398 spell resist => 37108 spell resist
34672 physical resist => 36382 physical resist
10% extra movement speed

You now have more HP, max mag, and max stam. Your tooltip damage for Surprise Attack goes from 9763 to 10886. Your healing also increases. You also GAIN more armor despite dropping 3x Protective. You also move faster than before.

All of these stat increases happen because of ONE skill. No other skill on the live server can allow you to improve your stats this much. I have tried it with Dark Deal, but the sustain you get from it cannot match Inhale. With this ability, you can afford to reallocate all of your recovery stats to damage, mitigation, and mobility. This doesn't show up on the tooltip value, but it's something a good theory crafter will notice right away when they test Inhale.

Random question, but why do you run both Netch and Crit Surge on your "meta" build?

Also, the actual dueling meta runs Restoring Light, not Storm Calling... and is absolutely capable of running Bewitched, full damage sets and tanking in rune forever. In fact, you kind of want to run Bewitched on any build on Live that is blocking regens often anyway.

Armor pots also might not be the best idea in a meta that's going to be full of Onslaughts and Corrosives...

To the people complaining about Heart of Flame... I'd recommend actually testing things on PTS; go see how many unkillable permablock builds exist, or how it's "impossible" to run out of resources... Because so far I've seen every duel end one way or another, and that's just 1v1s where you have one person on the Ardent Flame enjoyer, not multiple - situations where they're allowed to stand still and tank rather than having to LOS or kite a zerg.

Turns out, it's not that easy hanging around at 5k~ Magicka or stamina most of the fight because that's where your 0 base sustains and other sustain skills will immediately put you: in a very risky situation. In PvE this sustain ability will also result in a DPS loss if you're spending too many globals on it.

You run Netch in openworld to get 5% crit damage from Animal Companion passive, some extra sustain, and a small cleanse.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I specifically said "meta openworld build", which absolutely uses Storm Calling and Orzoga instead of Sugar Skulls. I even included Animal/Assassination/Restoring Light as one other meta subclass build in my comment. No idea why you are arguing something I never claimed.

Uh what? Armor pots are still good to survive damage when Onslaught/Corrosive isn't up, or against people who don't run those skills. Using your logic, I might as well not build any resistances because Onslaughts and Corrosives are going to be meta?

I have been using Heart of Flame of PTS, what do you mean? I have been on PTS for the past week testing against players using HOF and using it myself. Fights on PTS end because of Corrosive and Onslaught, both of which are their own issues. That doesn't reduce HOF's potential whatsoever.

You know what, I'll just record an actual fight the next time I'm online, because it's getting kind of annoying at this point.

Ok I'm just going to guess then: the reason you have both Netch and Crit Surge (both provide Major Sorcery/Brutality) on your screenshot is because you meant to put the strongest (open world) skill in the game there: Streak.

So on your own "meta" build you don't actually even need the "400-500 mag or stam regen" Netch provides, because sustain is extremely easy in this game.

I have also been testing on PTS and you can still build around NB bow as well or use Incap+unlockable CC with burst over Onslaught or Corrosive for example. You can also still build around things like Blastbones+Streak with Relequen etc and melt through people trying to tank with HoF because they're risking a lot by being low resources and unable to really heal up.

In other words, there's absolutely no problem with HoF or any defensive/sustain skill in the game right now. And yes, given how certain things look like and how much people like the "new thing", I don't think the investment into armor is going to be worth it next patch when half the people you fight counter it, compared to rn where Corro is a rarity and Onslaught a straight up unicorn outside of gankers.

What needs adjustments is the fact that strongest builds on PTS still subclass for crit damage and overturned CCs like Javelin to combo their Onslaughts with... And they'll still subclass Storm Calling for the strongest mobility skill/Onslaught buffing passives in the game.

If anything DK on PTS needs crit resistance on Draconic Power or something and further adjustments, not nerfs on what's good (not "overpowered"), fun and unique about it.

No, I actually run Netch there for what it is: free sustain, free cleanse, and free passive heal. Why would you run Streak when Warden Charm exists?

HoF is not just a sustain skill though. It's a delayed burst with a sustain function that is currently performing better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. Just the fact that it can be used as part of your offensive rotation already makes it better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. This is a non-argument.

Your suggestions are going to make DK the single best class next update, and quite frankly that is just going to shift the meta from what we have on live to all DKs. That isn't making the game more fun, just repackaging what's currently broken into another form.

Yes, that is precisely what they should aim for with these reworks: make whatever they rework strong and worth playing. It sounds to me like you just enjoy subclassing and want to keep the status quo that majority of the player base hates.

Also no Streak (a skill most players have called "overpowered" at one point or another btw) in open world... to double dip into Major buffs. You must be trolling at this point.

You know what, if you're not using Streak (the strongest skill in the game in one of the strongest skill lines in the game) then maybe HoF is overpowered for your build and thus needs to be nerfed... Damn, didn't think of that. Have you considered maybe subclassing into Ardent Flame then?

Meanwhile anyone actually using the kiting toolkit of Sorcerer and playing around the class strengths can either subclass into Animal Companions/Assassination or use Dark Deal/Conversion like it's meant to be used. And hey, when they buff sorcerer at the end of the year maybe Dark Magic can be an overall better skill line than it is right now... Or they can turn these reworks into a farce by listening to people who get ratio'd in post likes and make sure no class rework is worth getting excited about because it'll be nerfed to mediocrity just so that the 3 people who enjoy subclassing can keep subclassing.

Also if you think people need to "build around recovery" go fight the Animal Companions Assassination Restoring Light builds around with Essence Rallying Balorgh Mono, you will not run them out of resources and they very much can run Bewitched very easily, this is very obvious to anyone who plays the game at a high skill level.

I am a pure Sorc...

Not in the screenshot you linked, unless your pure sorc somehow has shalks and bow proc. As a pure sorc you should know the value of Streak and how your class plays; Streak->Dark Deal/Conversion. Try that with HoF and you'll find yourself getting no value from the AoE explosion and you'll have a hard time streaking around when at <10k Magicka most of the time (to get value out of HoF).

Despite of this, could they buff Dark Deal/Conversion further, rework a lot of things in Dark Magic and other Sorc skill lines etc similar to how DK was reworked? Yes, I'm personally looking forward to that as someone who also plays sorc a lot and would prefer to play it without subclassing in order to optimize it.

Just gotta point out here that you are trying to say that new HOF is not that crazy compared to darkdeal, but then in the following line say dardeal could be reworked and buffed up to HOF.

Lmao I didnt even notice that. Good catch

hoangdz · January 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I would be ok with this since the goal of that skill is to sustain you during your burst clearly.

You don't seem to understand the problem with Inhale though. It's giving you so much sustain that you can drop all recoveries and build into max damage/defense. No other skill in the game can do it as effectively

hoangdz · January 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

If you switch netch with inhale you loose you whole animal companio

Jesus, I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely being serious. I literally said "For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale", meaning I'm trying to compare the SUSTAIN portion of these 2 abilities. Please try to understand the message that is being conveyed.

You lose out on 20 percent sustain increase from the passive, an extra free 200 and change stamina or magicka recovery from the skill itself, and most importantly a free cleanse on demand you can spam for free at no cost. Those things add up

Even with the buff the skill is inferior to bull netch, enough that I considered still subclassing one line eventually on the new dk. If they did nerf the skill further it’ll be a dead skill with how it works now only dealing a flat amount of aoe damage

Like have you actually gone into the pts and dueled someone or at least fought something? The sustain is not that good in practice from that skill. It will at best bring dk up some to fight people subclassed, no one will be for instance subbing into dk for inhale the way everyone does animal companion

4416 stamina over 25s => 353 stamina recovery

If you are a stamDK and you have 30k stam, a 10% current missing stam means you are missing 3k stam. Inhale at 3k missing stam will recover 450 stam for first tick, 382 stam for second tick, and 325 stam for 3rd tick, totaling 1157 stam over 4 seconds. That's 578 recovery. Inhale at 90% max stam left is already giving almost double the recovery equivalent than Netch.

And yes, I have dueled people on PTS. I have dueled @Alchimiste1 and @Pelican on PTS. Both of them are top tier players. I think you are overexaggerating the sustain portion of Animal Companion. It doesn't match what I've experienced.

Again for someone that claims to have tested this youre ignoring the fact that this requires regular casting every four seconds, that is a major component you're conveniently leaving out

Whereas bull netch is there whether you're blocking, getting cc'd, cast interrupted, etc etc and only requires one activation every 25 seconds on top of the 20 percent resources increase in addition to the additive resources gain and a cleanse.

These things matter.

Inhale is a delayed burst ability. You are SUPPOSED to be casting it every 4s. It is BENEFICIAL for your rotation. It also happens to restore a significantly more amount of resources than Netch ever will. Inhale also allows permablocking.

Please, I have literally posted 3 videos of permablocking with Inhale, not using a single potion, and still having enough resources to continue blocking. You can literally find them in my previous comments. I don't want to re-explain this.

Decimus · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I don't think the people defending Inhale fully grasp the impact of this ability on their build. A normal build requires allocating stats between damage, sustain, healing, and defense. Even the current meta subclass builds on the live server, such as Assassination/Animal/Ritual or Assassination/Animal/Storm Calling, require trading one stat for another.

For example, this is a meta openworld build on the live server:

The empty slots are for Contingency and Healing Soul. Notice how I still need to use Orzoga food to sustain despite having Netch. This isn't some arbitrary claim. I've asked several users of this build and they all said that sustain felt best with this food. Also notice how I'm using 3x protective jewelries, as well as Fortified red CP to bring my resistances to 35k after Bloodspawn. Again, these traits are used because that's what the veteran players feel comfortable with, not some random number. This build looks like it has everything, and while I agree with that notion, the truth is you are still trading damage and healing (3x Infused jewelries, Sugar Skull food) for sustain (Orzoga food) and tankiness (3x Protective jewelries).

For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale? As demonstrated in several video clips above, Inhale allows you to do 3 things:

1) Switch from Orzoga to Sugar Skulls
2) Use double armor potions => switch from 3x Protective to 3x Infused
3) Drop Sustained By Suffering CP for Celerity CP

As a result, your max stats now go from:

30131 hp => 30470 hp
22010 stam => 26515 stam
17524 mag => 22029 mag
4979 wd => 5378 wd
35398 spell resist => 37108 spell resist
34672 physical resist => 36382 physical resist
10% extra movement speed

You now have more HP, max mag, and max stam. Your tooltip damage for Surprise Attack goes from 9763 to 10886. Your healing also increases. You also GAIN more armor despite dropping 3x Protective. You also move faster than before.

All of these stat increases happen because of ONE skill. No other skill on the live server can allow you to improve your stats this much. I have tried it with Dark Deal, but the sustain you get from it cannot match Inhale. With this ability, you can afford to reallocate all of your recovery stats to damage, mitigation, and mobility. This doesn't show up on the tooltip value, but it's something a good theory crafter will notice right away when they test Inhale.

Random question, but why do you run both Netch and Crit Surge on your "meta" build?

Also, the actual dueling meta runs Restoring Light, not Storm Calling... and is absolutely capable of running Bewitched, full damage sets and tanking in rune forever. In fact, you kind of want to run Bewitched on any build on Live that is blocking regens often anyway.

Armor pots also might not be the best idea in a meta that's going to be full of Onslaughts and Corrosives...

To the people complaining about Heart of Flame... I'd recommend actually testing things on PTS; go see how many unkillable permablock builds exist, or how it's "impossible" to run out of resources... Because so far I've seen every duel end one way or another, and that's just 1v1s where you have one person on the Ardent Flame enjoyer, not multiple - situations where they're allowed to stand still and tank rather than having to LOS or kite a zerg.

Turns out, it's not that easy hanging around at 5k~ Magicka or stamina most of the fight because that's where your 0 base sustains and other sustain skills will immediately put you: in a very risky situation. In PvE this sustain ability will also result in a DPS loss if you're spending too many globals on it.

You run Netch in openworld to get 5% crit damage from Animal Companion passive, some extra sustain, and a small cleanse.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I specifically said "meta openworld build", which absolutely uses Storm Calling and Orzoga instead of Sugar Skulls. I even included Animal/Assassination/Restoring Light as one other meta subclass build in my comment. No idea why you are arguing something I never claimed.

Uh what? Armor pots are still good to survive damage when Onslaught/Corrosive isn't up, or against people who don't run those skills. Using your logic, I might as well not build any resistances because Onslaughts and Corrosives are going to be meta?

I have been using Heart of Flame of PTS, what do you mean? I have been on PTS for the past week testing against players using HOF and using it myself. Fights on PTS end because of Corrosive and Onslaught, both of which are their own issues. That doesn't reduce HOF's potential whatsoever.

You know what, I'll just record an actual fight the next time I'm online, because it's getting kind of annoying at this point.

Ok I'm just going to guess then: the reason you have both Netch and Crit Surge (both provide Major Sorcery/Brutality) on your screenshot is because you meant to put the strongest (open world) skill in the game there: Streak.

So on your own "meta" build you don't actually even need the "400-500 mag or stam regen" Netch provides, because sustain is extremely easy in this game.

I have also been testing on PTS and you can still build around NB bow as well or use Incap+unlockable CC with burst over Onslaught or Corrosive for example. You can also still build around things like Blastbones+Streak with Relequen etc and melt through people trying to tank with HoF because they're risking a lot by being low resources and unable to really heal up.

In other words, there's absolutely no problem with HoF or any defensive/sustain skill in the game right now. And yes, given how certain things look like and how much people like the "new thing", I don't think the investment into armor is going to be worth it next patch when half the people you fight counter it, compared to rn where Corro is a rarity and Onslaught a straight up unicorn outside of gankers.

What needs adjustments is the fact that strongest builds on PTS still subclass for crit damage and overturned CCs like Javelin to combo their Onslaughts with... And they'll still subclass Storm Calling for the strongest mobility skill/Onslaught buffing passives in the game.

If anything DK on PTS needs crit resistance on Draconic Power or something and further adjustments, not nerfs on what's good (not "overpowered"), fun and unique about it.

No, I actually run Netch there for what it is: free sustain, free cleanse, and free passive heal. Why would you run Streak when Warden Charm exists?

HoF is not just a sustain skill though. It's a delayed burst with a sustain function that is currently performing better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. Just the fact that it can be used as part of your offensive rotation already makes it better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. This is a non-argument.

Your suggestions are going to make DK the single best class next update, and quite frankly that is just going to shift the meta from what we have on live to all DKs. That isn't making the game more fun, just repackaging what's currently broken into another form.

Yes, that is precisely what they should aim for with these reworks: make whatever they rework strong and worth playing. It sounds to me like you just enjoy subclassing and want to keep the status quo that majority of the player base hates.

Also no Streak (a skill most players have called "overpowered" at one point or another btw) in open world... to double dip into Major buffs. You must be trolling at this point.

You know what, if you're not using Streak (the strongest skill in the game in one of the strongest skill lines in the game) then maybe HoF is overpowered for your build and thus needs to be nerfed... Damn, didn't think of that. Have you considered maybe subclassing into Ardent Flame then?

Meanwhile anyone actually using the kiting toolkit of Sorcerer and playing around the class strengths can either subclass into Animal Companions/Assassination or use Dark Deal/Conversion like it's meant to be used. And hey, when they buff sorcerer at the end of the year maybe Dark Magic can be an overall better skill line than it is right now... Or they can turn these reworks into a farce by listening to people who get ratio'd in post likes and make sure no class rework is worth getting excited about because it'll be nerfed to mediocrity just so that the 3 people who enjoy subclassing can keep subclassing.

Also if you think people need to "build around recovery" go fight the Animal Companions Assassination Restoring Light builds around with Essence Rallying Balorgh Mono, you will not run them out of resources and they very much can run Bewitched very easily, this is very obvious to anyone who plays the game at a high skill level.

Why would you not double dip into major buffs when the skill itself is good enough to justify doing so? That's like saying I shouldn't run a source of Brutality because Jabs already give it.

Again, the build I showed you isn't Essence Rallying Balorgh Mono. You are clearly speaking from a 1v1 perspective in Alikir. I am strictly talking from an openworld experience. Last time I rmember, you don't even do OW that much? I mean you literally veered the discussion to a "dueling build" when I specifically stated that my example is an openworld version. Sorry, you aren't going to survive 30s kiting 8 people in Animal/Assassination/Restoring while running Sugar Skulls, not even with Essence. I have seen this countless times already in Cyrodiil. It ain't Alikir

Yes, you actually shouldn't double dip into Major buffs if you run Jabs (which has a 10s timer on it btw while Crit Surge & Netch are 20s), that just means your build isn't fully optimized, hence the "meta" in quotations previously. The build you linked would instantly be 10 times better if you ran Ball of Lightning or Streak in place of Crit Surge or even Quick Cloak on the front bar (and BoL in place of bird).

Also I didn't know you managed to test open world 1vX'ing or BGs on PTS and figured out how the balance is there already, that's impressive. Spoilers: the only thing you can test on PTS is duels.

Just for the record: I'm primarily a BG player (where sustain is a lot harder btw) and also the person with highest WR (75%) & KDR (52.8) on either megaserver. Not a big fan of running around in a ball group in Cyrodiil, hard to see why anyone would ever need to even slot a sustain skill there... or even when playing solo with CPs - all you need is enough mobility, sustain is easy.

Lol, you are a BG player, while I'm a dueler and 1vXer, so your POV on how builds should be are already different from mine. If you bring that logic of "not double dipping into Major buffs, especially with my Jabs example, you are going to have a hard time in Cyrodiil. That is precisely why I have Netch there and not something else.

On the live server I am already playing with 900 stam recovery and 800 mag recovery in dueling and OW. I can assure you that the PTS version of Inhale is going eventually bring about low regen/high mitigation/high damage builds in both dueling and Cyrodiil. I can 100% claim that Inhale is leagues ahead of Dark Deal in terms of sustain, and if it doesn't get nerfed, then I will happily subclass it for my Sorc build.

Wait, what happened to "needing Orzorga" on non-HoF builds? Now you're running around with 900/800 regens?

Also just by running jabs you're already going to have a harder time in Cyrodiil unless in a group, I hope you're aware of that. Most people run BfB or Surprise Attack as their spammable of choice for a good reason...

Not sure if the "lol BG player" (whatever that is supposed to mean) is necessary, I very likely have more /played time in Cyrodiil/IC as well.

MincMincMinc · January 21

Decimus wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I don't think the people defending Inhale fully grasp the impact of this ability on their build. A normal build requires allocating stats between damage, sustain, healing, and defense. Even the current meta subclass builds on the live server, such as Assassination/Animal/Ritual or Assassination/Animal/Storm Calling, require trading one stat for another.

For example, this is a meta openworld build on the live server:

The empty slots are for Contingency and Healing Soul. Notice how I still need to use Orzoga food to sustain despite having Netch. This isn't some arbitrary claim. I've asked several users of this build and they all said that sustain felt best with this food. Also notice how I'm using 3x protective jewelries, as well as Fortified red CP to bring my resistances to 35k after Bloodspawn. Again, these traits are used because that's what the veteran players feel comfortable with, not some random number. This build looks like it has everything, and while I agree with that notion, the truth is you are still trading damage and healing (3x Infused jewelries, Sugar Skull food) for sustain (Orzoga food) and tankiness (3x Protective jewelries).

For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale? As demonstrated in several video clips above, Inhale allows you to do 3 things:

1) Switch from Orzoga to Sugar Skulls
2) Use double armor potions => switch from 3x Protective to 3x Infused
3) Drop Sustained By Suffering CP for Celerity CP

As a result, your max stats now go from:

30131 hp => 30470 hp
22010 stam => 26515 stam
17524 mag => 22029 mag
4979 wd => 5378 wd
35398 spell resist => 37108 spell resist
34672 physical resist => 36382 physical resist
10% extra movement speed

You now have more HP, max mag, and max stam. Your tooltip damage for Surprise Attack goes from 9763 to 10886. Your healing also increases. You also GAIN more armor despite dropping 3x Protective. You also move faster than before.

All of these stat increases happen because of ONE skill. No other skill on the live server can allow you to improve your stats this much. I have tried it with Dark Deal, but the sustain you get from it cannot match Inhale. With this ability, you can afford to reallocate all of your recovery stats to damage, mitigation, and mobility. This doesn't show up on the tooltip value, but it's something a good theory crafter will notice right away when they test Inhale.

Random question, but why do you run both Netch and Crit Surge on your "meta" build?

Also, the actual dueling meta runs Restoring Light, not Storm Calling... and is absolutely capable of running Bewitched, full damage sets and tanking in rune forever. In fact, you kind of want to run Bewitched on any build on Live that is blocking regens often anyway.

Armor pots also might not be the best idea in a meta that's going to be full of Onslaughts and Corrosives...

To the people complaining about Heart of Flame... I'd recommend actually testing things on PTS; go see how many unkillable permablock builds exist, or how it's "impossible" to run out of resources... Because so far I've seen every duel end one way or another, and that's just 1v1s where you have one person on the Ardent Flame enjoyer, not multiple - situations where they're allowed to stand still and tank rather than having to LOS or kite a zerg.

Turns out, it's not that easy hanging around at 5k~ Magicka or stamina most of the fight because that's where your 0 base sustains and other sustain skills will immediately put you: in a very risky situation. In PvE this sustain ability will also result in a DPS loss if you're spending too many globals on it.

You run Netch in openworld to get 5% crit damage from Animal Companion passive, some extra sustain, and a small cleanse.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I specifically said "meta openworld build", which absolutely uses Storm Calling and Orzoga instead of Sugar Skulls. I even included Animal/Assassination/Restoring Light as one other meta subclass build in my comment. No idea why you are arguing something I never claimed.

Uh what? Armor pots are still good to survive damage when Onslaught/Corrosive isn't up, or against people who don't run those skills. Using your logic, I might as well not build any resistances because Onslaughts and Corrosives are going to be meta?

I have been using Heart of Flame of PTS, what do you mean? I have been on PTS for the past week testing against players using HOF and using it myself. Fights on PTS end because of Corrosive and Onslaught, both of which are their own issues. That doesn't reduce HOF's potential whatsoever.

You know what, I'll just record an actual fight the next time I'm online, because it's getting kind of annoying at this point.

Ok I'm just going to guess then: the reason you have both Netch and Crit Surge (both provide Major Sorcery/Brutality) on your screenshot is because you meant to put the strongest (open world) skill in the game there: Streak.

So on your own "meta" build you don't actually even need the "400-500 mag or stam regen" Netch provides, because sustain is extremely easy in this game.

I have also been testing on PTS and you can still build around NB bow as well or use Incap+unlockable CC with burst over Onslaught or Corrosive for example. You can also still build around things like Blastbones+Streak with Relequen etc and melt through people trying to tank with HoF because they're risking a lot by being low resources and unable to really heal up.

In other words, there's absolutely no problem with HoF or any defensive/sustain skill in the game right now. And yes, given how certain things look like and how much people like the "new thing", I don't think the investment into armor is going to be worth it next patch when half the people you fight counter it, compared to rn where Corro is a rarity and Onslaught a straight up unicorn outside of gankers.

What needs adjustments is the fact that strongest builds on PTS still subclass for crit damage and overturned CCs like Javelin to combo their Onslaughts with... And they'll still subclass Storm Calling for the strongest mobility skill/Onslaught buffing passives in the game.

If anything DK on PTS needs crit resistance on Draconic Power or something and further adjustments, not nerfs on what's good (not "overpowered"), fun and unique about it.

No, I actually run Netch there for what it is: free sustain, free cleanse, and free passive heal. Why would you run Streak when Warden Charm exists?

HoF is not just a sustain skill though. It's a delayed burst with a sustain function that is currently performing better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. Just the fact that it can be used as part of your offensive rotation already makes it better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. This is a non-argument.

Your suggestions are going to make DK the single best class next update, and quite frankly that is just going to shift the meta from what we have on live to all DKs. That isn't making the game more fun, just repackaging what's currently broken into another form.

Yes, that is precisely what they should aim for with these reworks: make whatever they rework strong and worth playing. It sounds to me like you just enjoy subclassing and want to keep the status quo that majority of the player base hates.

Also no Streak (a skill most players have called "overpowered" at one point or another btw) in open world... to double dip into Major buffs. You must be trolling at this point.

You know what, if you're not using Streak (the strongest skill in the game in one of the strongest skill lines in the game) then maybe HoF is overpowered for your build and thus needs to be nerfed... Damn, didn't think of that. Have you considered maybe subclassing into Ardent Flame then?

Meanwhile anyone actually using the kiting toolkit of Sorcerer and playing around the class strengths can either subclass into Animal Companions/Assassination or use Dark Deal/Conversion like it's meant to be used. And hey, when they buff sorcerer at the end of the year maybe Dark Magic can be an overall better skill line than it is right now... Or they can turn these reworks into a farce by listening to people who get ratio'd in post likes and make sure no class rework is worth getting excited about because it'll be nerfed to mediocrity just so that the 3 people who enjoy subclassing can keep subclassing.

Also if you think people need to "build around recovery" go fight the Animal Companions Assassination Restoring Light builds around with Essence Rallying Balorgh Mono, you will not run them out of resources and they very much can run Bewitched very easily, this is very obvious to anyone who plays the game at a high skill level.

I am a pure Sorc...

Not in the screenshot you linked, unless your pure sorc somehow has shalks and bow proc. As a pure sorc you should know the value of Streak and how your class plays; Streak->Dark Deal/Conversion. Try that with HoF and you'll find yourself getting no value from the AoE explosion and you'll have a hard time streaking around when at <10k Magicka most of the time (to get value out of HoF).

Despite of this, could they buff Dark Deal/Conversion further, rework a lot of things in Dark Magic and other Sorc skill lines etc similar to how DK was reworked? Yes, I'm personally looking forward to that as someone who also plays sorc a lot and would prefer to play it without subclassing in order to optimize it.

Just gotta point out here that you are trying to say that new HOF is not that crazy compared to darkdeal, but then in the following line say dardeal could be reworked and buffed up to HOF.

I'm just going off the notion that zos needs to blow people out of the water to get past the bad press associated with subclassing. So they are just going to powercreep everything until reworks are over.......Then they are probably going to leave it that way and never unpower creep it as things normally go. We shouldn't be comparing HOF to unreworked skills and instead be showing whether it should exist next to other sustain sources in the game..............Which we know zos has messed up the overall balance of sustain in the game......so really its all pointless.

Yall are better off arguing to prevent the more annoying abuse cases this will lead to like one click wonder permablock tanks. Just change the resource return to regen instead so atleast permablock builds lose half the resource ticks.

HoF and Dark Deal/Conversion will always have vastly different use cases and one will be better than the other situationally. Dark Deal/Conversion function with a cast time and are tailored more towards kiting playstyles, so what they could do is add a heal over time to it for example, or slightly increase the resources you gain... that kinda stuff.

Ultimately though, just buffing the skill line would make it a lot more desirable on its own. Frags don't really compare to bow proc or molten whip after all and the rest of the toolkit apart from Negate is just either mid or flat out terrible while Ardent Flame offers delayed burst (or good AoE HoT) with Major Prophecy/Savagery, 8m 70% snare field with health scaling heals, major prot/minor heroism, AoE major defile with a synergy for team, stronger passives for damage etc

I am also a stamsorc main since IC. Granted I mainly stopped playing after elsweyr gutted all the old weapon playstyles like dizzy and reverb in favor of turning everyone into a timed proc/stall playstyle. I still hop into every pts though to keep tabs and play with old friends.

Yeah Deal/conversion should be changed back before they tried to make it a bad copy of netch's consistent return. It should be a flat resource return and maybe an extra hot if anything. Certainly not a random damage buff, zos needs to stop making every skill do 10 different concepts, skills and sets are bloated as it is.

Lets be honest nothing compares to bow proc. It does more than any ultimate in the game while also giving you a chunky heal and hard to get major crit buffs. They could remove the major and the heal and I would still slot the skill on anything because again it does more than any ult in the game every 5s instead of every 40s to 60s.
Deep fissure is not much better. The first hit tooltips like any other spammable despite being a timed burst aoe that does two debuffs. Then to top it off it does a second timed burst double debuff that now tooltips the same as dawnbreaker.
You are practically better off not using ultimates for burst at this point and may aswell just pick buff ults like corrosive northern or spellwall

BardokRedSnow · January 21

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Again, I have tested the skills on PTS. Nobody on PTS whom I've tested with have said Inhale is balanced. If they disagreed with me, it's because they want to wait until ZOS buffs the remaining classes, not because they think Inhale is balanced.

This bolded part is what it boils down to for me personally.

The skill is clearly not balanced when looking at it compared to existing (pre-refresh) classes, however IF every single class being reworked is going to jump to this sort of power level, then I am fine leaving the skill as is and letting DKs have their moment in the sun until we get warden next season (then DK will have to share with warden) and Sorc later in the year (which DK and Warden will have to share with Sorc). If skills like this prove to still be too problematic after the next couple of classes are released even with their refresh, then look at adjusting this skill to bring it more into line with "the new standard".

P.S. Not sure if I mentioned it on this thread or not, but I have mentioned it many times in other threads, but my preferred way of releasing the class updates would have been to have them as "experimental content" on PTS until all 7 classes have been refreshed, then release all of them at the same time as the "new power baseline". The issue with this is that idk if ESO can last another 2 years without any changes at all (probably why the classes are being released 1 by 1, to give players something fun to play with while this refresh project and other things that will take time are worked on).

This is the part Im not getting as far as people saying its not balanced. This is the obvious intent of the refresh, and its inevitable that reworked classes will be stronger pure vs the ones not refreshed, however people keep forgetting that subclassing will remain a thing and its still severely broken and will be even after DK refreshes.

None of the top sweats I see are subclassing using dk skills, which only highlights the fact that DK is the most in need of a refresh.

@BardokRedSnow This bolded part of your comment is the main crux of my take on this issue. The key point is that we don't know the power level ZOS expects to come out of these class refreshes (is it supposed to be this strong, or did ZOS overshoot this one because it's the first class?)

I agree that if the power that this post-refresh DK has is where ZOS wants to bring every class up to with their refreshes, then no need to change the skill since DK will have plenty of competition within a few months anyway as more classes get their refreshes.

It is a simple fact though that compared to pre-refresh classes this is not balanced (and that is also expected since it is comparing pre-refresh to post-refresh).

This is why I would like to see ZOS let us know for certain that this DK refresh is the intended new power level of every class, so that we can then give them better feedback on if this skill is fine to leave as is since every class will be here anyway, or if it's not ZOS's intended power level, then there's a potential balance issue with this skill for them to look into.

That's fair to me then, I assumed the intended power level was near subclassed builds, not over or under necessarily, just near. I feel like that's what the intended goal is from their various comments prior and their letters to the community.

If that is their goal then yea I stand firm on this being balanced, since anyone not playing a pure dk will most likely in pvp be playing a subclassed build.

With this in mind, this is why I get so frustrated seeing calls for nerfing before its even out yet and after having tested it myself.

There's four reasons DK doesn't compete pure class with subclassed Pelican esque sweat builds and why at best you can stalemate with them. Sustain, focus on dot damage vs overall damage, no cleanse, and no decent escape skill

They have addressed 3 out of 4 of these problems, but they haven't straight up solved them, which is fine because subclassing still exists and DK honestly shouldn't be 100 percent better than subclassed builds right from the start, it should close the gap to make pure classing more satisfying and provide a gameplay feel that subclassed builds wouldn't. I feel like this hits that mark perfectly.

Inhale not being able to top off your resources is actually a big deal and a decent counter to its increased usefulness because of the presence of battle roar and when you're being pressured by a high damage build or a group of people hitting you at once, it gives the chance for counterplay. Warden sustain doesn't have that same counterplay, especially when charm is thrown into the mix.

Decimus · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

If you switch netch with inhale you loose you whole animal companio

Jesus, I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely being serious. I literally said "For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale", meaning I'm trying to compare the SUSTAIN portion of these 2 abilities. Please try to understand the message that is being conveyed.

You lose out on 20 percent sustain increase from the passive, an extra free 200 and change stamina or magicka recovery from the skill itself, and most importantly a free cleanse on demand you can spam for free at no cost. Those things add up

Even with the buff the skill is inferior to bull netch, enough that I considered still subclassing one line eventually on the new dk. If they did nerf the skill further it’ll be a dead skill with how it works now only dealing a flat amount of aoe damage

Like have you actually gone into the pts and dueled someone or at least fought something? The sustain is not that good in practice from that skill. It will at best bring dk up some to fight people subclassed, no one will be for instance subbing into dk for inhale the way everyone does animal companion

4416 stamina over 25s => 353 stamina recovery

If you are a stamDK and you have 30k stam, a 10% current missing stam means you are missing 3k stam. Inhale at 3k missing stam will recover 450 stam for first tick, 382 stam for second tick, and 325 stam for 3rd tick, totaling 1157 stam over 4 seconds. That's 578 recovery. Inhale at 90% max stam left is already giving almost double the recovery equivalent than Netch.

And yes, I have dueled people on PTS. I have dueled @Alchimiste1 and @Pelican on PTS. Both of them are top tier players. I think you are overexaggerating the sustain portion of Animal Companion. It doesn't match what I've experienced.

Again for someone that claims to have tested this youre ignoring the fact that this requires regular casting every four seconds, that is a major component you're conveniently leaving out

Whereas bull netch is there whether you're blocking, getting cc'd, cast interrupted, etc etc and only requires one activation every 25 seconds on top of the 20 percent resources increase in addition to the additive resources gain and a cleanse.

These things matter.

Inhale is a delayed burst ability. You are SUPPOSED to be casting it every 4s. It is BENEFICIAL for your rotation. It also happens to restore a significantly more amount of resources than Netch ever will. Inhale also allows permablocking.

Please, I have literally posted 3 videos of permablocking with Inhale, not using a single potion, and still having enough resources to continue blocking. You can literally find them in my previous comments. I don't want to re-explain this.

Oh no, someone can permablock against one opponent using an ability and there's not one, but 3 videos of it? Damn.

Wait, wait wait... https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2664432638?t=02h08m04s isn't this person tanking half an enemy team in noCP without dropping below 80% Stamina while spamming burst heals on his team mates? Nerf Siphoning Attacks immediately /s

hoangdz · January 21

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I don't think the people defending Inhale fully grasp the impact of this ability on their build. A normal build requires allocating stats between damage, sustain, healing, and defense. Even the current meta subclass builds on the live server, such as Assassination/Animal/Ritual or Assassination/Animal/Storm Calling, require trading one stat for another.

For example, this is a meta openworld build on the live server:

The empty slots are for Contingency and Healing Soul. Notice how I still need to use Orzoga food to sustain despite having Netch. This isn't some arbitrary claim. I've asked several users of this build and they all said that sustain felt best with this food. Also notice how I'm using 3x protective jewelries, as well as Fortified red CP to bring my resistances to 35k after Bloodspawn. Again, these traits are used because that's what the veteran players feel comfortable with, not some random number. This build looks like it has everything, and while I agree with that notion, the truth is you are still trading damage and healing (3x Infused jewelries, Sugar Skull food) for sustain (Orzoga food) and tankiness (3x Protective jewelries).

For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale? As demonstrated in several video clips above, Inhale allows you to do 3 things:

1) Switch from Orzoga to Sugar Skulls
2) Use double armor potions => switch from 3x Protective to 3x Infused
3) Drop Sustained By Suffering CP for Celerity CP

As a result, your max stats now go from:

30131 hp => 30470 hp
22010 stam => 26515 stam
17524 mag => 22029 mag
4979 wd => 5378 wd
35398 spell resist => 37108 spell resist
34672 physical resist => 36382 physical resist
10% extra movement speed

You now have more HP, max mag, and max stam. Your tooltip damage for Surprise Attack goes from 9763 to 10886. Your healing also increases. You also GAIN more armor despite dropping 3x Protective. You also move faster than before.

All of these stat increases happen because of ONE skill. No other skill on the live server can allow you to improve your stats this much. I have tried it with Dark Deal, but the sustain you get from it cannot match Inhale. With this ability, you can afford to reallocate all of your recovery stats to damage, mitigation, and mobility. This doesn't show up on the tooltip value, but it's something a good theory crafter will notice right away when they test Inhale.

Random question, but why do you run both Netch and Crit Surge on your "meta" build?

Also, the actual dueling meta runs Restoring Light, not Storm Calling... and is absolutely capable of running Bewitched, full damage sets and tanking in rune forever. In fact, you kind of want to run Bewitched on any build on Live that is blocking regens often anyway.

Armor pots also might not be the best idea in a meta that's going to be full of Onslaughts and Corrosives...

To the people complaining about Heart of Flame... I'd recommend actually testing things on PTS; go see how many unkillable permablock builds exist, or how it's "impossible" to run out of resources... Because so far I've seen every duel end one way or another, and that's just 1v1s where you have one person on the Ardent Flame enjoyer, not multiple - situations where they're allowed to stand still and tank rather than having to LOS or kite a zerg.

Turns out, it's not that easy hanging around at 5k~ Magicka or stamina most of the fight because that's where your 0 base sustains and other sustain skills will immediately put you: in a very risky situation. In PvE this sustain ability will also result in a DPS loss if you're spending too many globals on it.

You run Netch in openworld to get 5% crit damage from Animal Companion passive, some extra sustain, and a small cleanse.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I specifically said "meta openworld build", which absolutely uses Storm Calling and Orzoga instead of Sugar Skulls. I even included Animal/Assassination/Restoring Light as one other meta subclass build in my comment. No idea why you are arguing something I never claimed.

Uh what? Armor pots are still good to survive damage when Onslaught/Corrosive isn't up, or against people who don't run those skills. Using your logic, I might as well not build any resistances because Onslaughts and Corrosives are going to be meta?

I have been using Heart of Flame of PTS, what do you mean? I have been on PTS for the past week testing against players using HOF and using it myself. Fights on PTS end because of Corrosive and Onslaught, both of which are their own issues. That doesn't reduce HOF's potential whatsoever.

You know what, I'll just record an actual fight the next time I'm online, because it's getting kind of annoying at this point.

Ok I'm just going to guess then: the reason you have both Netch and Crit Surge (both provide Major Sorcery/Brutality) on your screenshot is because you meant to put the strongest (open world) skill in the game there: Streak.

So on your own "meta" build you don't actually even need the "400-500 mag or stam regen" Netch provides, because sustain is extremely easy in this game.

I have also been testing on PTS and you can still build around NB bow as well or use Incap+unlockable CC with burst over Onslaught or Corrosive for example. You can also still build around things like Blastbones+Streak with Relequen etc and melt through people trying to tank with HoF because they're risking a lot by being low resources and unable to really heal up.

In other words, there's absolutely no problem with HoF or any defensive/sustain skill in the game right now. And yes, given how certain things look like and how much people like the "new thing", I don't think the investment into armor is going to be worth it next patch when half the people you fight counter it, compared to rn where Corro is a rarity and Onslaught a straight up unicorn outside of gankers.

What needs adjustments is the fact that strongest builds on PTS still subclass for crit damage and overturned CCs like Javelin to combo their Onslaughts with... And they'll still subclass Storm Calling for the strongest mobility skill/Onslaught buffing passives in the game.

If anything DK on PTS needs crit resistance on Draconic Power or something and further adjustments, not nerfs on what's good (not "overpowered"), fun and unique about it.

No, I actually run Netch there for what it is: free sustain, free cleanse, and free passive heal. Why would you run Streak when Warden Charm exists?

HoF is not just a sustain skill though. It's a delayed burst with a sustain function that is currently performing better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. Just the fact that it can be used as part of your offensive rotation already makes it better than Dark Deal or Siphoning. This is a non-argument.

Your suggestions are going to make DK the single best class next update, and quite frankly that is just going to shift the meta from what we have on live to all DKs. That isn't making the game more fun, just repackaging what's currently broken into another form.

Yes, that is precisely what they should aim for with these reworks: make whatever they rework strong and worth playing. It sounds to me like you just enjoy subclassing and want to keep the status quo that majority of the player base hates.

Also no Streak (a skill most players have called "overpowered" at one point or another btw) in open world... to double dip into Major buffs. You must be trolling at this point.

You know what, if you're not using Streak (the strongest skill in the game in one of the strongest skill lines in the game) then maybe HoF is overpowered for your build and thus needs to be nerfed... Damn, didn't think of that. Have you considered maybe subclassing into Ardent Flame then?

Meanwhile anyone actually using the kiting toolkit of Sorcerer and playing around the class strengths can either subclass into Animal Companions/Assassination or use Dark Deal/Conversion like it's meant to be used. And hey, when they buff sorcerer at the end of the year maybe Dark Magic can be an overall better skill line than it is right now... Or they can turn these reworks into a farce by listening to people who get ratio'd in post likes and make sure no class rework is worth getting excited about because it'll be nerfed to mediocrity just so that the 3 people who enjoy subclassing can keep subclassing.

Also if you think people need to "build around recovery" go fight the Animal Companions Assassination Restoring Light builds around with Essence Rallying Balorgh Mono, you will not run them out of resources and they very much can run Bewitched very easily, this is very obvious to anyone who plays the game at a high skill level.

Why would you not double dip into major buffs when the skill itself is good enough to justify doing so? That's like saying I shouldn't run a source of Brutality because Jabs already give it.

Again, the build I showed you isn't Essence Rallying Balorgh Mono. You are clearly speaking from a 1v1 perspective in Alikir. I am strictly talking from an openworld experience. Last time I rmember, you don't even do OW that much? I mean you literally veered the discussion to a "dueling build" when I specifically stated that my example is an openworld version. Sorry, you aren't going to survive 30s kiting 8 people in Animal/Assassination/Restoring while running Sugar Skulls, not even with Essence. I have seen this countless times already in Cyrodiil. It ain't Alikir

Yes, you actually shouldn't double dip into Major buffs if you run Jabs (which has a 10s timer on it btw while Crit Surge & Netch are 20s), that just means your build isn't fully optimized, hence the "meta" in quotations previously. The build you linked would instantly be 10 times better if you ran Ball of Lightning or Streak in place of Crit Surge or even Quick Cloak on the front bar (and BoL in place of bird).

Also I didn't know you managed to test open world 1vX'ing or BGs on PTS and figured out how the balance is there already, that's impressive. Spoilers: the only thing you can test on PTS is duels.

Just for the record: I'm primarily a BG player (where sustain is a lot harder btw) and also the person with highest WR (75%) & KDR (52.8) on either megaserver. Not a big fan of running around in a ball group in Cyrodiil, hard to see why anyone would ever need to even slot a sustain skill there... or even when playing solo with CPs - all you need is enough mobility, sustain is easy.

Lol, you are a BG player, while I'm a dueler and 1vXer, so your POV on how builds should be are already different from mine. If you bring that logic of "not double dipping into Major buffs, especially with my Jabs example, you are going to have a hard time in Cyrodiil. That is precisely why I have Netch there and not something else.

On the live server I am already playing with 900 stam recovery and 800 mag recovery in dueling and OW. I can assure you that the PTS version of Inhale is going eventually bring about low regen/high mitigation/high damage builds in both dueling and Cyrodiil. I can 100% claim that Inhale is leagues ahead of Dark Deal in terms of sustain, and if it doesn't get nerfed, then I will happily subclass it for my Sorc build.

Wait, what happened to "needing Orzorga" on non-HoF builds? Now you're running around with 900/800 regens?

Also just by running jabs you're already going to have a harder time in Cyrodiil unless in a group, I hope you're aware of that. Most people run BfB or Surprise Attack as their spammable of choice for a good reason...

Not sure if the "lol BG player" (whatever that is supposed to mean) is necessary, I very likely have more /played time in Cyrodiil/IC as well.

Okay I think you're either misreading what I said or you're trying to twist what I'm saying to fit your narrative, but let me reclarify what I've said.

1) I showed you a sample meta build that people use for OPEN WORLD
2) I also showed you what I run, which is a pure sorc build

You are trying to twist what I said for the meta build which I do not run and apply it to the build I'm running. No, I'm a sorc and I don't run around with Orzoga. Yes, people who run the meta subclass build for OPEN WORLD absolutely use Orzoga. That is a non-argument. Your perspective as a BG player does not apply to open world, period, especially when I clearly stated that the build was intended for open world, not BG.

Jabs are definitely used successfully in Cyrodiil. There are multiple top tier 1vXers running this build like Pelican.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B479LOlZKT4&t=164s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxPZryVHfJQ&t=52s

That quote is very necessary. I know full well how different BG theory crafting is compared to open world theory crafting. That information should have been disclosed from the beginning because we are clearly arguing on different grounds.

hoangdz · January 21

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

If you switch netch with inhale you loose you whole animal companio

Jesus, I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely being serious. I literally said "For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale", meaning I'm trying to compare the SUSTAIN portion of these 2 abilities. Please try to understand the message that is being conveyed.

You lose out on 20 percent sustain increase from the passive, an extra free 200 and change stamina or magicka recovery from the skill itself, and most importantly a free cleanse on demand you can spam for free at no cost. Those things add up

Even with the buff the skill is inferior to bull netch, enough that I considered still subclassing one line eventually on the new dk. If they did nerf the skill further it’ll be a dead skill with how it works now only dealing a flat amount of aoe damage

Like have you actually gone into the pts and dueled someone or at least fought something? The sustain is not that good in practice from that skill. It will at best bring dk up some to fight people subclassed, no one will be for instance subbing into dk for inhale the way everyone does animal companion

4416 stamina over 25s => 353 stamina recovery

If you are a stamDK and you have 30k stam, a 10% current missing stam means you are missing 3k stam. Inhale at 3k missing stam will recover 450 stam for first tick, 382 stam for second tick, and 325 stam for 3rd tick, totaling 1157 stam over 4 seconds. That's 578 recovery. Inhale at 90% max stam left is already giving almost double the recovery equivalent than Netch.

And yes, I have dueled people on PTS. I have dueled @Alchimiste1 and @Pelican on PTS. Both of them are top tier players. I think you are overexaggerating the sustain portion of Animal Companion. It doesn't match what I've experienced.

Again for someone that claims to have tested this youre ignoring the fact that this requires regular casting every four seconds, that is a major component you're conveniently leaving out

Whereas bull netch is there whether you're blocking, getting cc'd, cast interrupted, etc etc and only requires one activation every 25 seconds on top of the 20 percent resources increase in addition to the additive resources gain and a cleanse.

These things matter.

Inhale is a delayed burst ability. You are SUPPOSED to be casting it every 4s. It is BENEFICIAL for your rotation. It also happens to restore a significantly more amount of resources than Netch ever will. Inhale also allows permablocking.

Please, I have literally posted 3 videos of permablocking with Inhale, not using a single potion, and still having enough resources to continue blocking. You can literally find them in my previous comments. I don't want to re-explain this.

Oh no, someone can permablock against one opponent using an ability and there's not one, but 3 videos of it? Damn.

Wait, wait wait... https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2664432638?t=02h08m04s isn't this person tanking half an enemy team in noCP without dropping below 80% Stamina while spamming burst heals on his team mates? Nerf Siphoning Attacks immediately /s

You're on a block tank. I can do that on a DPS build with Inhale. This comparison is not the same.

MincMincMinc · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

If you switch netch with inhale you loose you whole animal companio

Jesus, I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely being serious. I literally said "For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale", meaning I'm trying to compare the SUSTAIN portion of these 2 abilities. Please try to understand the message that is being conveyed.

You lose out on 20 percent sustain increase from the passive, an extra free 200 and change stamina or magicka recovery from the skill itself, and most importantly a free cleanse on demand you can spam for free at no cost. Those things add up

Even with the buff the skill is inferior to bull netch, enough that I considered still subclassing one line eventually on the new dk. If they did nerf the skill further it’ll be a dead skill with how it works now only dealing a flat amount of aoe damage

Like have you actually gone into the pts and dueled someone or at least fought something? The sustain is not that good in practice from that skill. It will at best bring dk up some to fight people subclassed, no one will be for instance subbing into dk for inhale the way everyone does animal companion

4416 stamina over 25s => 353 stamina recovery

If you are a stamDK and you have 30k stam, a 10% current missing stam means you are missing 3k stam. Inhale at 3k missing stam will recover 450 stam for first tick, 382 stam for second tick, and 325 stam for 3rd tick, totaling 1157 stam over 4 seconds. That's 578 recovery. Inhale at 90% max stam left is already giving almost double the recovery equivalent than Netch.

And yes, I have dueled people on PTS. I have dueled @Alchimiste1 and @Pelican on PTS. Both of them are top tier players. I think you are overexaggerating the sustain portion of Animal Companion. It doesn't match what I've experienced.

Again for someone that claims to have tested this youre ignoring the fact that this requires regular casting every four seconds, that is a major component you're conveniently leaving out

Whereas bull netch is there whether you're blocking, getting cc'd, cast interrupted, etc etc and only requires one activation every 25 seconds on top of the 20 percent resources increase in addition to the additive resources gain and a cleanse.

These things matter.

Inhale is a delayed burst ability. You are SUPPOSED to be casting it every 4s. It is BENEFICIAL for your rotation. It also happens to restore a significantly more amount of resources than Netch ever will. Inhale also allows permablocking.

Please, I have literally posted 3 videos of permablocking with Inhale, not using a single potion, and still having enough resources to continue blocking. You can literally find them in my previous comments. I don't want to re-explain this.

Oh no, someone can permablock against one opponent using an ability and there's not one, but 3 videos of it? Damn.

Wait, wait wait... https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2664432638?t=02h08m04s isn't this person tanking half an enemy team in noCP without dropping below 80% Stamina while spamming burst heals on his team mates? Nerf Siphoning Attacks immediately /s

You're on a block tank. I can do that on a DPS build with Inhale. This comparison is not the same.

tbf he could slot onslaught on that block tank next patch and also be a DPS lol

hoangdz · January 21

MincMincMinc wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

If you switch netch with inhale you loose you whole animal companio

Jesus, I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely being serious. I literally said "For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale", meaning I'm trying to compare the SUSTAIN portion of these 2 abilities. Please try to understand the message that is being conveyed.

You lose out on 20 percent sustain increase from the passive, an extra free 200 and change stamina or magicka recovery from the skill itself, and most importantly a free cleanse on demand you can spam for free at no cost. Those things add up

Even with the buff the skill is inferior to bull netch, enough that I considered still subclassing one line eventually on the new dk. If they did nerf the skill further it’ll be a dead skill with how it works now only dealing a flat amount of aoe damage

Like have you actually gone into the pts and dueled someone or at least fought something? The sustain is not that good in practice from that skill. It will at best bring dk up some to fight people subclassed, no one will be for instance subbing into dk for inhale the way everyone does animal companion

4416 stamina over 25s => 353 stamina recovery

If you are a stamDK and you have 30k stam, a 10% current missing stam means you are missing 3k stam. Inhale at 3k missing stam will recover 450 stam for first tick, 382 stam for second tick, and 325 stam for 3rd tick, totaling 1157 stam over 4 seconds. That's 578 recovery. Inhale at 90% max stam left is already giving almost double the recovery equivalent than Netch.

And yes, I have dueled people on PTS. I have dueled @Alchimiste1 and @Pelican on PTS. Both of them are top tier players. I think you are overexaggerating the sustain portion of Animal Companion. It doesn't match what I've experienced.

Again for someone that claims to have tested this youre ignoring the fact that this requires regular casting every four seconds, that is a major component you're conveniently leaving out

Whereas bull netch is there whether you're blocking, getting cc'd, cast interrupted, etc etc and only requires one activation every 25 seconds on top of the 20 percent resources increase in addition to the additive resources gain and a cleanse.

These things matter.

Inhale is a delayed burst ability. You are SUPPOSED to be casting it every 4s. It is BENEFICIAL for your rotation. It also happens to restore a significantly more amount of resources than Netch ever will. Inhale also allows permablocking.

Please, I have literally posted 3 videos of permablocking with Inhale, not using a single potion, and still having enough resources to continue blocking. You can literally find them in my previous comments. I don't want to re-explain this.

Oh no, someone can permablock against one opponent using an ability and there's not one, but 3 videos of it? Damn.

Wait, wait wait... https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2664432638?t=02h08m04s isn't this person tanking half an enemy team in noCP without dropping below 80% Stamina while spamming burst heals on his team mates? Nerf Siphoning Attacks immediately /s

You're on a block tank. I can do that on a DPS build with Inhale. This comparison is not the same.

tbf he could slot onslaught on that block tank next patch and also be a DPS lol

That's actually true lol

BardokRedSnow · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

If you switch netch with inhale you loose you whole animal companio

Jesus, I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely being serious. I literally said "For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale", meaning I'm trying to compare the SUSTAIN portion of these 2 abilities. Please try to understand the message that is being conveyed.

You lose out on 20 percent sustain increase from the passive, an extra free 200 and change stamina or magicka recovery from the skill itself, and most importantly a free cleanse on demand you can spam for free at no cost. Those things add up

Even with the buff the skill is inferior to bull netch, enough that I considered still subclassing one line eventually on the new dk. If they did nerf the skill further it’ll be a dead skill with how it works now only dealing a flat amount of aoe damage

Like have you actually gone into the pts and dueled someone or at least fought something? The sustain is not that good in practice from that skill. It will at best bring dk up some to fight people subclassed, no one will be for instance subbing into dk for inhale the way everyone does animal companion

4416 stamina over 25s => 353 stamina recovery

If you are a stamDK and you have 30k stam, a 10% current missing stam means you are missing 3k stam. Inhale at 3k missing stam will recover 450 stam for first tick, 382 stam for second tick, and 325 stam for 3rd tick, totaling 1157 stam over 4 seconds. That's 578 recovery. Inhale at 90% max stam left is already giving almost double the recovery equivalent than Netch.

And yes, I have dueled people on PTS. I have dueled @Alchimiste1 and @Pelican on PTS. Both of them are top tier players. I think you are overexaggerating the sustain portion of Animal Companion. It doesn't match what I've experienced.

Again for someone that claims to have tested this youre ignoring the fact that this requires regular casting every four seconds, that is a major component you're conveniently leaving out

Whereas bull netch is there whether you're blocking, getting cc'd, cast interrupted, etc etc and only requires one activation every 25 seconds on top of the 20 percent resources increase in addition to the additive resources gain and a cleanse.

These things matter.

Inhale is a delayed burst ability. You are SUPPOSED to be casting it every 4s. It is BENEFICIAL for your rotation. It also happens to restore a significantly more amount of resources than Netch ever will. Inhale also allows permablocking.

Please, I have literally posted 3 videos of permablocking with Inhale, not using a single potion, and still having enough resources to continue blocking. You can literally find them in my previous comments. I don't want to re-explain this.

Then don't, its not necessary because it doesn't address the fact that the need to repeatedly cast it leaves openings and also keeps your resource pool from being topped off.

You wont be permablocking when in a 1vX scenario or a high damage/crit build causes you to get locked in a CC unable to break free, and die. On a class without a streak ability or other escape.

This is the part being glossed over, the things being claimed in practice aren't reality. If you sit there and mash the skill it isnt a permanent sustain cheat or I win button, the gains are being dramatically exaggerated, unless youre on an actual permablock build that is which is already a thing with or without dk and inhale.

The existence of those builds shouldn't get inhale nerfed, you're not permablocking a sweat on an average tank and spank dk with inhale alone. Much less multiple enemies, its a flat out lie.

Decimus · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

If you switch netch with inhale you loose you whole animal companio

Jesus, I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely being serious. I literally said "For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale", meaning I'm trying to compare the SUSTAIN portion of these 2 abilities. Please try to understand the message that is being conveyed.

You lose out on 20 percent sustain increase from the passive, an extra free 200 and change stamina or magicka recovery from the skill itself, and most importantly a free cleanse on demand you can spam for free at no cost. Those things add up

Even with the buff the skill is inferior to bull netch, enough that I considered still subclassing one line eventually on the new dk. If they did nerf the skill further it’ll be a dead skill with how it works now only dealing a flat amount of aoe damage

Like have you actually gone into the pts and dueled someone or at least fought something? The sustain is not that good in practice from that skill. It will at best bring dk up some to fight people subclassed, no one will be for instance subbing into dk for inhale the way everyone does animal companion

4416 stamina over 25s => 353 stamina recovery

If you are a stamDK and you have 30k stam, a 10% current missing stam means you are missing 3k stam. Inhale at 3k missing stam will recover 450 stam for first tick, 382 stam for second tick, and 325 stam for 3rd tick, totaling 1157 stam over 4 seconds. That's 578 recovery. Inhale at 90% max stam left is already giving almost double the recovery equivalent than Netch.

And yes, I have dueled people on PTS. I have dueled @Alchimiste1 and @Pelican on PTS. Both of them are top tier players. I think you are overexaggerating the sustain portion of Animal Companion. It doesn't match what I've experienced.

Again for someone that claims to have tested this youre ignoring the fact that this requires regular casting every four seconds, that is a major component you're conveniently leaving out

Whereas bull netch is there whether you're blocking, getting cc'd, cast interrupted, etc etc and only requires one activation every 25 seconds on top of the 20 percent resources increase in addition to the additive resources gain and a cleanse.

These things matter.

Inhale is a delayed burst ability. You are SUPPOSED to be casting it every 4s. It is BENEFICIAL for your rotation. It also happens to restore a significantly more amount of resources than Netch ever will. Inhale also allows permablocking.

Please, I have literally posted 3 videos of permablocking with Inhale, not using a single potion, and still having enough resources to continue blocking. You can literally find them in my previous comments. I don't want to re-explain this.

Oh no, someone can permablock against one opponent using an ability and there's not one, but 3 videos of it? Damn.

Wait, wait wait... https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2664432638?t=02h08m04s isn't this person tanking half an enemy team in noCP without dropping below 80% Stamina while spamming burst heals on his team mates? Nerf Siphoning Attacks immediately /s

You're on a block tank. I can do that on a DPS build with Inhale. This comparison is not the same.

It's actually block healer with Soulcleaver & Harbinger, usually getting top heals in BGs & still outdamaging some people with the damage return (which procs Siphoning Attacks heal/sustain). Point is, there are so many ways to do what HoF does, just in different manners. Are there builds where HoF is best in slot? Yes, absolutely.

But that doesn't make it any more "overpowered" than Siphoning Attacks... or other abilities considered "overpowered" like Streak, Merciless Resolve, Shalks, Javelin etc. What you're arguing against is simply DK having an "overpowered" ability similar to these in one of its toolkits.

Also (since you're posting on multiple segments), any build that works in BGs works in open world Cyrodiil/IC as well, you'll just have some excess sustain which you'll need when you're more outnumbered - nothing changes there fundamentally, except that having access to Streak becomes more important in open world because some numbers/ball groups just can't be tanked or survived otherwise. Vice versa, some of the BG builds (while still working in BGs) work even better in open world - bomber builds being a good example due to having more targets.

It's cool that Pelican is having fun with Jabs, but that doesn't make them more effective than the alternatives. I can do great even on a werewolf in BGs... doesn't make werewolf "meta".

hoangdz · January 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

If you switch netch with inhale you loose you whole animal companio

Jesus, I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely being serious. I literally said "For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale", meaning I'm trying to compare the SUSTAIN portion of these 2 abilities. Please try to understand the message that is being conveyed.

You lose out on 20 percent sustain increase from the passive, an extra free 200 and change stamina or magicka recovery from the skill itself, and most importantly a free cleanse on demand you can spam for free at no cost. Those things add up

Even with the buff the skill is inferior to bull netch, enough that I considered still subclassing one line eventually on the new dk. If they did nerf the skill further it’ll be a dead skill with how it works now only dealing a flat amount of aoe damage

Like have you actually gone into the pts and dueled someone or at least fought something? The sustain is not that good in practice from that skill. It will at best bring dk up some to fight people subclassed, no one will be for instance subbing into dk for inhale the way everyone does animal companion

4416 stamina over 25s => 353 stamina recovery

If you are a stamDK and you have 30k stam, a 10% current missing stam means you are missing 3k stam. Inhale at 3k missing stam will recover 450 stam for first tick, 382 stam for second tick, and 325 stam for 3rd tick, totaling 1157 stam over 4 seconds. That's 578 recovery. Inhale at 90% max stam left is already giving almost double the recovery equivalent than Netch.

And yes, I have dueled people on PTS. I have dueled @Alchimiste1 and @Pelican on PTS. Both of them are top tier players. I think you are overexaggerating the sustain portion of Animal Companion. It doesn't match what I've experienced.

Again for someone that claims to have tested this youre ignoring the fact that this requires regular casting every four seconds, that is a major component you're conveniently leaving out

Whereas bull netch is there whether you're blocking, getting cc'd, cast interrupted, etc etc and only requires one activation every 25 seconds on top of the 20 percent resources increase in addition to the additive resources gain and a cleanse.

These things matter.

Inhale is a delayed burst ability. You are SUPPOSED to be casting it every 4s. It is BENEFICIAL for your rotation. It also happens to restore a significantly more amount of resources than Netch ever will. Inhale also allows permablocking.

Please, I have literally posted 3 videos of permablocking with Inhale, not using a single potion, and still having enough resources to continue blocking. You can literally find them in my previous comments. I don't want to re-explain this.

Then don't, its not necessary because it doesn't address the fact that the need to repeatedly cast it leaves openings and also keeps your resource pool from being topped off.

You wont be permablocking when in a 1vX scenario or a high damage/crit build causes you to get locked in a CC unable to break free, and die. On a class without a streak ability or other escape.

This is the part being glossed over, the things being claimed in practice aren't reality. If you sit there and mash the skill it isnt a permanent sustain cheat or I win button, the gains are being dramatically exaggerated, unless youre on an actual permablock build that is which is already a thing with or without dk and inhale.

The existence of those builds shouldn't get inhale nerfed, you're not permablocking a sweat on an average tank and spank dk with inhale alone. Much less multiple enemies, its a flat out lie.

What do you mean the things being claimed in practice aren't reality? I am 1vXing in Cyrodiil with 800 recoveries on my stamsorc and doing it successfully because Dark Deal is a huge sustain crutch, and on PTS Dark Deal pales in comparison to Inhale. I'm not speaking from an arbitrary stance. I'm actually using my past experience in Cyrodiil, which btw fits perfectly well with how Inhale functions on PTS, and doing some basic comparison to come to this conclusion.

In the case that ZOS keeps Inhale as is, I'll simply just subclass into DK and abuse it like everyone will. There is literally no reason not to run Inhale if it doesn't get nerfed lol.

BardokRedSnow · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

If you switch netch with inhale you loose you whole animal companio

Jesus, I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely being serious. I literally said "For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale", meaning I'm trying to compare the SUSTAIN portion of these 2 abilities. Please try to understand the message that is being conveyed.

You lose out on 20 percent sustain increase from the passive, an extra free 200 and change stamina or magicka recovery from the skill itself, and most importantly a free cleanse on demand you can spam for free at no cost. Those things add up

Even with the buff the skill is inferior to bull netch, enough that I considered still subclassing one line eventually on the new dk. If they did nerf the skill further it’ll be a dead skill with how it works now only dealing a flat amount of aoe damage

Like have you actually gone into the pts and dueled someone or at least fought something? The sustain is not that good in practice from that skill. It will at best bring dk up some to fight people subclassed, no one will be for instance subbing into dk for inhale the way everyone does animal companion

4416 stamina over 25s => 353 stamina recovery

If you are a stamDK and you have 30k stam, a 10% current missing stam means you are missing 3k stam. Inhale at 3k missing stam will recover 450 stam for first tick, 382 stam for second tick, and 325 stam for 3rd tick, totaling 1157 stam over 4 seconds. That's 578 recovery. Inhale at 90% max stam left is already giving almost double the recovery equivalent than Netch.

And yes, I have dueled people on PTS. I have dueled @Alchimiste1 and @Pelican on PTS. Both of them are top tier players. I think you are overexaggerating the sustain portion of Animal Companion. It doesn't match what I've experienced.

Again for someone that claims to have tested this youre ignoring the fact that this requires regular casting every four seconds, that is a major component you're conveniently leaving out

Whereas bull netch is there whether you're blocking, getting cc'd, cast interrupted, etc etc and only requires one activation every 25 seconds on top of the 20 percent resources increase in addition to the additive resources gain and a cleanse.

These things matter.

Inhale is a delayed burst ability. You are SUPPOSED to be casting it every 4s. It is BENEFICIAL for your rotation. It also happens to restore a significantly more amount of resources than Netch ever will. Inhale also allows permablocking.

Please, I have literally posted 3 videos of permablocking with Inhale, not using a single potion, and still having enough resources to continue blocking. You can literally find them in my previous comments. I don't want to re-explain this.

Then don't, its not necessary because it doesn't address the fact that the need to repeatedly cast it leaves openings and also keeps your resource pool from being topped off.

You wont be permablocking when in a 1vX scenario or a high damage/crit build causes you to get locked in a CC unable to break free, and die. On a class without a streak ability or other escape.

This is the part being glossed over, the things being claimed in practice aren't reality. If you sit there and mash the skill it isnt a permanent sustain cheat or I win button, the gains are being dramatically exaggerated, unless youre on an actual permablock build that is which is already a thing with or without dk and inhale.

The existence of those builds shouldn't get inhale nerfed, you're not permablocking a sweat on an average tank and spank dk with inhale alone. Much less multiple enemies, its a flat out lie.

What do you mean the things being claimed in practice aren't reality? I am 1vXing in Cyrodiil with 800 recoveries on my stamsorc and doing it successfully because Dark Deal is a huge sustain crutch, and on PTS Dark Deal pales in comparison to Inhale. I'm not speaking from an arbitrary stance. I'm actually using my past experience in Cyrodiil, which btw fits perfectly well with how Inhale functions on PTS, and doing some basic comparison to come to this conclusion.

In the case that ZOS keeps Inhale as is, I'll simply just subclass into DK and abuse it like everyone will. There is literally no reason not to run Inhale if it doesn't get nerfed lol.

Because Ive also tested it, and disagree with you that it needs to be nerfed, because what you claim about it isn't true. And in the case that you do subclass using it and it is as broken as you claim, it will merely put everyone on the same playing field. Which seems to be what they intended in the first place.

hoangdz · January 21

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

If you switch netch with inhale you loose you whole animal companio

Jesus, I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely being serious. I literally said "For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale", meaning I'm trying to compare the SUSTAIN portion of these 2 abilities. Please try to understand the message that is being conveyed.

You lose out on 20 percent sustain increase from the passive, an extra free 200 and change stamina or magicka recovery from the skill itself, and most importantly a free cleanse on demand you can spam for free at no cost. Those things add up

Even with the buff the skill is inferior to bull netch, enough that I considered still subclassing one line eventually on the new dk. If they did nerf the skill further it’ll be a dead skill with how it works now only dealing a flat amount of aoe damage

Like have you actually gone into the pts and dueled someone or at least fought something? The sustain is not that good in practice from that skill. It will at best bring dk up some to fight people subclassed, no one will be for instance subbing into dk for inhale the way everyone does animal companion

4416 stamina over 25s => 353 stamina recovery

If you are a stamDK and you have 30k stam, a 10% current missing stam means you are missing 3k stam. Inhale at 3k missing stam will recover 450 stam for first tick, 382 stam for second tick, and 325 stam for 3rd tick, totaling 1157 stam over 4 seconds. That's 578 recovery. Inhale at 90% max stam left is already giving almost double the recovery equivalent than Netch.

And yes, I have dueled people on PTS. I have dueled @Alchimiste1 and @Pelican on PTS. Both of them are top tier players. I think you are overexaggerating the sustain portion of Animal Companion. It doesn't match what I've experienced.

Again for someone that claims to have tested this youre ignoring the fact that this requires regular casting every four seconds, that is a major component you're conveniently leaving out

Whereas bull netch is there whether you're blocking, getting cc'd, cast interrupted, etc etc and only requires one activation every 25 seconds on top of the 20 percent resources increase in addition to the additive resources gain and a cleanse.

These things matter.

Inhale is a delayed burst ability. You are SUPPOSED to be casting it every 4s. It is BENEFICIAL for your rotation. It also happens to restore a significantly more amount of resources than Netch ever will. Inhale also allows permablocking.

Please, I have literally posted 3 videos of permablocking with Inhale, not using a single potion, and still having enough resources to continue blocking. You can literally find them in my previous comments. I don't want to re-explain this.

Oh no, someone can permablock against one opponent using an ability and there's not one, but 3 videos of it? Damn.

Wait, wait wait... https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2664432638?t=02h08m04s isn't this person tanking half an enemy team in noCP without dropping below 80% Stamina while spamming burst heals on his team mates? Nerf Siphoning Attacks immediately /s

You're on a block tank. I can do that on a DPS build with Inhale. This comparison is not the same.

It's actually block healer with Soulcleaver & Harbinger, usually getting top heals in BGs & still outdamaging some people with the damage return (which procs Siphoning Attacks heal/sustain). Point is, there are so many ways to do what HoF does, just in different manners. Are there builds where HoF is best in slot? Yes, absolutely.

But that doesn't make it any more "overpowered" than Siphoning Attacks... or other abilities considered "overpowered" like Streak, Merciless Resolve, Shalks, Javelin etc. What you're arguing against is simply DK having an "overpowered" ability similar to these in one of its toolkits.

Also (since you're posting on multiple segments), any build that works in BGs works in open world Cyrodiil/IC as well, you'll just have some excess sustain which you'll need when you're more outnumbered - nothing changes there fundamentally, except that having access to Streak becomes more important in open world because some numbers/ball groups just can't be tanked or survived otherwise. Vice versa, some of the BG builds (while still working in BGs) work even better in open world - bomber builds being a good example due to having more targets.

It's cool that Pelican is having fun with Jabs, but that doesn't make them more effective than the alternatives. I can do great even on a werewolf in BGs... doesn't make werewolf "meta".

HoF is going to be the best sustain skill in the game, no question about it, especially when it's actively used in your offensive rotation. I for one will be using Inhale over Dark Deal when it goes live, you can count on that.

Pelican has made some very strong off-meta builds that perform just as well as meta builds in Cyro. Meta builds just happen to excel at everything, whereas his builds only excel at Cyro.

hoangdz · January 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

If you switch netch with inhale you loose you whole animal companio

Jesus, I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely being serious. I literally said "For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale", meaning I'm trying to compare the SUSTAIN portion of these 2 abilities. Please try to understand the message that is being conveyed.

You lose out on 20 percent sustain increase from the passive, an extra free 200 and change stamina or magicka recovery from the skill itself, and most importantly a free cleanse on demand you can spam for free at no cost. Those things add up

Even with the buff the skill is inferior to bull netch, enough that I considered still subclassing one line eventually on the new dk. If they did nerf the skill further it’ll be a dead skill with how it works now only dealing a flat amount of aoe damage

Like have you actually gone into the pts and dueled someone or at least fought something? The sustain is not that good in practice from that skill. It will at best bring dk up some to fight people subclassed, no one will be for instance subbing into dk for inhale the way everyone does animal companion

4416 stamina over 25s => 353 stamina recovery

If you are a stamDK and you have 30k stam, a 10% current missing stam means you are missing 3k stam. Inhale at 3k missing stam will recover 450 stam for first tick, 382 stam for second tick, and 325 stam for 3rd tick, totaling 1157 stam over 4 seconds. That's 578 recovery. Inhale at 90% max stam left is already giving almost double the recovery equivalent than Netch.

And yes, I have dueled people on PTS. I have dueled @Alchimiste1 and @Pelican on PTS. Both of them are top tier players. I think you are overexaggerating the sustain portion of Animal Companion. It doesn't match what I've experienced.

Again for someone that claims to have tested this youre ignoring the fact that this requires regular casting every four seconds, that is a major component you're conveniently leaving out

Whereas bull netch is there whether you're blocking, getting cc'd, cast interrupted, etc etc and only requires one activation every 25 seconds on top of the 20 percent resources increase in addition to the additive resources gain and a cleanse.

These things matter.

Inhale is a delayed burst ability. You are SUPPOSED to be casting it every 4s. It is BENEFICIAL for your rotation. It also happens to restore a significantly more amount of resources than Netch ever will. Inhale also allows permablocking.

Please, I have literally posted 3 videos of permablocking with Inhale, not using a single potion, and still having enough resources to continue blocking. You can literally find them in my previous comments. I don't want to re-explain this.

Then don't, its not necessary because it doesn't address the fact that the need to repeatedly cast it leaves openings and also keeps your resource pool from being topped off.

You wont be permablocking when in a 1vX scenario or a high damage/crit build causes you to get locked in a CC unable to break free, and die. On a class without a streak ability or other escape.

This is the part being glossed over, the things being claimed in practice aren't reality. If you sit there and mash the skill it isnt a permanent sustain cheat or I win button, the gains are being dramatically exaggerated, unless youre on an actual permablock build that is which is already a thing with or without dk and inhale.

The existence of those builds shouldn't get inhale nerfed, you're not permablocking a sweat on an average tank and spank dk with inhale alone. Much less multiple enemies, its a flat out lie.

What do you mean the things being claimed in practice aren't reality? I am 1vXing in Cyrodiil with 800 recoveries on my stamsorc and doing it successfully because Dark Deal is a huge sustain crutch, and on PTS Dark Deal pales in comparison to Inhale. I'm not speaking from an arbitrary stance. I'm actually using my past experience in Cyrodiil, which btw fits perfectly well with how Inhale functions on PTS, and doing some basic comparison to come to this conclusion.

In the case that ZOS keeps Inhale as is, I'll simply just subclass into DK and abuse it like everyone will. There is literally no reason not to run Inhale if it doesn't get nerfed lol.

Because Ive also tested it, and disagree with you that it needs to be nerfed, because what you claim about it isn't true. And in the case that you do subclass using it and it is as broken as you claim, it will merely put everyone on the same playing field. Which seems to be what they intended in the first place.

Okay so if I post a video testing the same thing here and it goes against your claim, you'll admit that you're wrong?

BardokRedSnow · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

If you switch netch with inhale you loose you whole animal companio

Jesus, I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely being serious. I literally said "For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale", meaning I'm trying to compare the SUSTAIN portion of these 2 abilities. Please try to understand the message that is being conveyed.

You lose out on 20 percent sustain increase from the passive, an extra free 200 and change stamina or magicka recovery from the skill itself, and most importantly a free cleanse on demand you can spam for free at no cost. Those things add up

Even with the buff the skill is inferior to bull netch, enough that I considered still subclassing one line eventually on the new dk. If they did nerf the skill further it’ll be a dead skill with how it works now only dealing a flat amount of aoe damage

Like have you actually gone into the pts and dueled someone or at least fought something? The sustain is not that good in practice from that skill. It will at best bring dk up some to fight people subclassed, no one will be for instance subbing into dk for inhale the way everyone does animal companion

4416 stamina over 25s => 353 stamina recovery

If you are a stamDK and you have 30k stam, a 10% current missing stam means you are missing 3k stam. Inhale at 3k missing stam will recover 450 stam for first tick, 382 stam for second tick, and 325 stam for 3rd tick, totaling 1157 stam over 4 seconds. That's 578 recovery. Inhale at 90% max stam left is already giving almost double the recovery equivalent than Netch.

And yes, I have dueled people on PTS. I have dueled @Alchimiste1 and @Pelican on PTS. Both of them are top tier players. I think you are overexaggerating the sustain portion of Animal Companion. It doesn't match what I've experienced.

Again for someone that claims to have tested this youre ignoring the fact that this requires regular casting every four seconds, that is a major component you're conveniently leaving out

Whereas bull netch is there whether you're blocking, getting cc'd, cast interrupted, etc etc and only requires one activation every 25 seconds on top of the 20 percent resources increase in addition to the additive resources gain and a cleanse.

These things matter.

Inhale is a delayed burst ability. You are SUPPOSED to be casting it every 4s. It is BENEFICIAL for your rotation. It also happens to restore a significantly more amount of resources than Netch ever will. Inhale also allows permablocking.

Please, I have literally posted 3 videos of permablocking with Inhale, not using a single potion, and still having enough resources to continue blocking. You can literally find them in my previous comments. I don't want to re-explain this.

Then don't, its not necessary because it doesn't address the fact that the need to repeatedly cast it leaves openings and also keeps your resource pool from being topped off.

You wont be permablocking when in a 1vX scenario or a high damage/crit build causes you to get locked in a CC unable to break free, and die. On a class without a streak ability or other escape.

This is the part being glossed over, the things being claimed in practice aren't reality. If you sit there and mash the skill it isnt a permanent sustain cheat or I win button, the gains are being dramatically exaggerated, unless youre on an actual permablock build that is which is already a thing with or without dk and inhale.

The existence of those builds shouldn't get inhale nerfed, you're not permablocking a sweat on an average tank and spank dk with inhale alone. Much less multiple enemies, its a flat out lie.

What do you mean the things being claimed in practice aren't reality? I am 1vXing in Cyrodiil with 800 recoveries on my stamsorc and doing it successfully because Dark Deal is a huge sustain crutch, and on PTS Dark Deal pales in comparison to Inhale. I'm not speaking from an arbitrary stance. I'm actually using my past experience in Cyrodiil, which btw fits perfectly well with how Inhale functions on PTS, and doing some basic comparison to come to this conclusion.

In the case that ZOS keeps Inhale as is, I'll simply just subclass into DK and abuse it like everyone will. There is literally no reason not to run Inhale if it doesn't get nerfed lol.

Because Ive also tested it, and disagree with you that it needs to be nerfed, because what you claim about it isn't true. And in the case that you do subclass using it and it is as broken as you claim, it will merely put everyone on the same playing field. Which seems to be what they intended in the first place.

Okay so if I post a video testing the same thing here and it goes against your claim, you'll admit that you're wrong?

No, because you can simply do as you said you'd do and subclass the skill line and use HoF.

Whats the problem if you have the skill available to you? There's always gonna be one skill that outperforms the others, and the very fact that you can subclass into DK for its alleged overperforming skills proves it doesn't need to be nerfed when the whole point of the class refresh is to bring DK up closer to subclassed builds...

Again as I said in my statement even if you are right and its that strong, your solution proves exactly why a nerf isnt needed.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Again, I have tested the skills on PTS. Nobody on PTS whom I've tested with have said Inhale is balanced. If they disagreed with me, it's because they want to wait until ZOS buffs the remaining classes, not because they think Inhale is balanced.

This bolded part is what it boils down to for me personally.

The skill is clearly not balanced when looking at it compared to existing (pre-refresh) classes, however IF every single class being reworked is going to jump to this sort of power level, then I am fine leaving the skill as is and letting DKs have their moment in the sun until we get warden next season (then DK will have to share with warden) and Sorc later in the year (which DK and Warden will have to share with Sorc). If skills like this prove to still be too problematic after the next couple of classes are released even with their refresh, then look at adjusting this skill to bring it more into line with "the new standard".

P.S. Not sure if I mentioned it on this thread or not, but I have mentioned it many times in other threads, but my preferred way of releasing the class updates would have been to have them as "experimental content" on PTS until all 7 classes have been refreshed, then release all of them at the same time as the "new power baseline". The issue with this is that idk if ESO can last another 2 years without any changes at all (probably why the classes are being released 1 by 1, to give players something fun to play with while this refresh project and other things that will take time are worked on).

This is the part Im not getting as far as people saying its not balanced. This is the obvious intent of the refresh, and its inevitable that reworked classes will be stronger pure vs the ones not refreshed, however people keep forgetting that subclassing will remain a thing and its still severely broken and will be even after DK refreshes.

None of the top sweats I see are subclassing using dk skills, which only highlights the fact that DK is the most in need of a refresh.

@BardokRedSnow This bolded part of your comment is the main crux of my take on this issue. The key point is that we don't know the power level ZOS expects to come out of these class refreshes (is it supposed to be this strong, or did ZOS overshoot this one because it's the first class?)

I agree that if the power that this post-refresh DK has is where ZOS wants to bring every class up to with their refreshes, then no need to change the skill since DK will have plenty of competition within a few months anyway as more classes get their refreshes.

It is a simple fact though that compared to pre-refresh classes this is not balanced (and that is also expected since it is comparing pre-refresh to post-refresh).

This is why I would like to see ZOS let us know for certain that this DK refresh is the intended new power level of every class, so that we can then give them better feedback on if this skill is fine to leave as is since every class will be here anyway, or if it's not ZOS's intended power level, then there's a potential balance issue with this skill for them to look into.

That's fair to me then, I assumed the intended power level was near subclassed builds, not over or under necessarily, just near. I feel like that's what the intended goal is from their various comments prior and their letters to the community.

If that is their goal then yea I stand firm on this being balanced, since anyone not playing a pure dk will most likely in pvp be playing a subclassed build.

With this in mind, this is why I get so frustrated seeing calls for nerfing before its even out yet and after having tested it myself.

There's four reasons DK doesn't compete pure class with subclassed Pelican esque sweat builds and why at best you can stalemate with them. Sustain, focus on dot damage vs overall damage, no cleanse, and no decent escape skill

They have addressed 3 out of 4 of these problems, but they haven't straight up solved them, which is fine because subclassing still exists and DK honestly shouldn't be 100 percent better than subclassed builds right from the start, it should close the gap to make pure classing more satisfying and provide a gameplay feel that subclassed builds wouldn't. I feel like this hits that mark perfectly.

Inhale not being able to top off your resources is actually a big deal and a decent counter to its increased usefulness because of the presence of battle roar and when you're being pressured by a high damage build or a group of people hitting you at once, it gives the chance for counterplay. Warden sustain doesn't have that same counterplay, especially when charm is thrown into the mix.

BardokRedSnow · January 21

The very nature of subclassing without any penalty means subclassed builds will always be stronger than pure class builds. At best these changes even with exaggerated inhale claims true or false brings DK up to par with subclassed builds, for now.

Unless there's something in the dk passives that makes inhale sustain stronger when pure classed, which there isn't, only to damage itself, there's no reason to nerf it.

Only time nerfing will actually be appropriate is when other class refresh efforts come through to bring those in line. The fact that DK is the first means we need to wait and see. Until then if people aren't satisfied with what they have they'll do exactly what the OP said he'd do... continue to subclass, which is as intended.

hoangdz · January 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Meanwhile subclass builds have far more recovery than dk with these changes even with wretched vitality simply because of animal companion.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

If you switch netch with inhale you loose you whole animal companio

Jesus, I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely being serious. I literally said "For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale", meaning I'm trying to compare the SUSTAIN portion of these 2 abilities. Please try to understand the message that is being conveyed.

You lose out on 20 percent sustain increase from the passive, an extra free 200 and change stamina or magicka recovery from the skill itself, and most importantly a free cleanse on demand you can spam for free at no cost. Those things add up

Even with the buff the skill is inferior to bull netch, enough that I considered still subclassing one line eventually on the new dk. If they did nerf the skill further it’ll be a dead skill with how it works now only dealing a flat amount of aoe damage

Like have you actually gone into the pts and dueled someone or at least fought something? The sustain is not that good in practice from that skill. It will at best bring dk up some to fight people subclassed, no one will be for instance subbing into dk for inhale the way everyone does animal companion

4416 stamina over 25s => 353 stamina recovery

If you are a stamDK and you have 30k stam, a 10% current missing stam means you are missing 3k stam. Inhale at 3k missing stam will recover 450 stam for first tick, 382 stam for second tick, and 325 stam for 3rd tick, totaling 1157 stam over 4 seconds. That's 578 recovery. Inhale at 90% max stam left is already giving almost double the recovery equivalent than Netch.

And yes, I have dueled people on PTS. I have dueled @Alchimiste1 and @Pelican on PTS. Both of them are top tier players. I think you are overexaggerating the sustain portion of Animal Companion. It doesn't match what I've experienced.

Again for someone that claims to have tested this youre ignoring the fact that this requires regular casting every four seconds, that is a major component you're conveniently leaving out

Whereas bull netch is there whether you're blocking, getting cc'd, cast interrupted, etc etc and only requires one activation every 25 seconds on top of the 20 percent resources increase in addition to the additive resources gain and a cleanse.

These things matter.

Inhale is a delayed burst ability. You are SUPPOSED to be casting it every 4s. It is BENEFICIAL for your rotation. It also happens to restore a significantly more amount of resources than Netch ever will. Inhale also allows permablocking.

Please, I have literally posted 3 videos of permablocking with Inhale, not using a single potion, and still having enough resources to continue blocking. You can literally find them in my previous comments. I don't want to re-explain this.

Then don't, its not necessary because it doesn't address the fact that the need to repeatedly cast it leaves openings and also keeps your resource pool from being topped off.

You wont be permablocking when in a 1vX scenario or a high damage/crit build causes you to get locked in a CC unable to break free, and die. On a class without a streak ability or other escape.

This is the part being glossed over, the things being claimed in practice aren't reality. If you sit there and mash the skill it isnt a permanent sustain cheat or I win button, the gains are being dramatically exaggerated, unless youre on an actual permablock build that is which is already a thing with or without dk and inhale.

The existence of those builds shouldn't get inhale nerfed, you're not permablocking a sweat on an average tank and spank dk with inhale alone. Much less multiple enemies, its a flat out lie.

What do you mean the things being claimed in practice aren't reality? I am 1vXing in Cyrodiil with 800 recoveries on my stamsorc and doing it successfully because Dark Deal is a huge sustain crutch, and on PTS Dark Deal pales in comparison to Inhale. I'm not speaking from an arbitrary stance. I'm actually using my past experience in Cyrodiil, which btw fits perfectly well with how Inhale functions on PTS, and doing some basic comparison to come to this conclusion.

In the case that ZOS keeps Inhale as is, I'll simply just subclass into DK and abuse it like everyone will. There is literally no reason not to run Inhale if it doesn't get nerfed lol.

Because Ive also tested it, and disagree with you that it needs to be nerfed, because what you claim about it isn't true. And in the case that you do subclass using it and it is as broken as you claim, it will merely put everyone on the same playing field. Which seems to be what they intended in the first place.

Okay so if I post a video testing the same thing here and it goes against your claim, you'll admit that you're wrong?

No, because you can simply do as you said you'd do and subclass the skill line and use HoF.

Whats the problem if you have the skill available to you? There's always gonna be one skill that outperforms the others, and the very fact that you can subclass into DK for its alleged overperforming skills proves it doesn't need to be nerfed when the whole point of the class refresh is to bring DK up closer to subclassed builds...

Again as I said in my statement even if you are right and its that strong, your solution proves exactly why a nerf isnt needed.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Again, I have tested the skills on PTS. Nobody on PTS whom I've tested with have said Inhale is balanced. If they disagreed with me, it's because they want to wait until ZOS buffs the remaining classes, not because they think Inhale is balanced.

This bolded part is what it boils down to for me personally.

The skill is clearly not balanced when looking at it compared to existing (pre-refresh) classes, however IF every single class being reworked is going to jump to this sort of power level, then I am fine leaving the skill as is and letting DKs have their moment in the sun until we get warden next season (then DK will have to share with warden) and Sorc later in the year (which DK and Warden will have to share with Sorc). If skills like this prove to still be too problematic after the next couple of classes are released even with their refresh, then look at adjusting this skill to bring it more into line with "the new standard".

P.S. Not sure if I mentioned it on this thread or not, but I have mentioned it many times in other threads, but my preferred way of releasing the class updates would have been to have them as "experimental content" on PTS until all 7 classes have been refreshed, then release all of them at the same time as the "new power baseline". The issue with this is that idk if ESO can last another 2 years without any changes at all (probably why the classes are being released 1 by 1, to give players something fun to play with while this refresh project and other things that will take time are worked on).

This is the part Im not getting as far as people saying its not balanced. This is the obvious intent of the refresh, and its inevitable that reworked classes will be stronger pure vs the ones not refreshed, however people keep forgetting that subclassing will remain a thing and its still severely broken and will be even after DK refreshes.

None of the top sweats I see are subclassing using dk skills, which only highlights the fact that DK is the most in need of a refresh.

@BardokRedSnow This bolded part of your comment is the main crux of my take on this issue. The key point is that we don't know the power level ZOS expects to come out of these class refreshes (is it supposed to be this strong, or did ZOS overshoot this one because it's the first class?)

I agree that if the power that this post-refresh DK has is where ZOS wants to bring every class up to with their refreshes, then no need to change the skill since DK will have plenty of competition within a few months anyway as more classes get their refreshes.

It is a simple fact though that compared to pre-refresh classes this is not balanced (and that is also expected since it is comparing pre-refresh to post-refresh).

This is why I would like to see ZOS let us know for certain that this DK refresh is the intended new power level of every class, so that we can then give them better feedback on if this skill is fine to leave as is since every class will be here anyway, or if it's not ZOS's intended power level, then there's a potential balance issue with this skill for them to look into.

That's fair to me then, I assumed the intended power level was near subclassed builds, not over or under necessarily, just near. I feel like that's what the intended goal is from their various comments prior and their letters to the community.

If that is their goal then yea I stand firm on this being balanced, since anyone not playing a pure dk will most likely in pvp be playing a subclassed build.

With this in mind, this is why I get so frustrated seeing calls for nerfing before its even out yet and after having tested it myself.

There's four reasons DK doesn't compete pure class with subclassed Pelican esque sweat builds and why at best you can stalemate with them. Sustain, focus on dot damage vs overall damage, no cleanse, and no decent escape skill

They have addressed 3 out of 4 of these problems, but they haven't straight up solved them, which is fine because subclassing still exists and DK honestly shouldn't be 100 percent better than subclassed builds right from the start, it should close the gap to make pure classing more satisfying and provide a gameplay feel that subclassed builds wouldn't. I feel like this hits that mark perfectly.

Inhale not being able to top off your resources is actually a big deal and a decent counter to its increased usefulness because of the presence of battle roar and when you're being pressured by a high damage build or a group of people hitting you at once, it gives the chance for counterplay. Warden sustain doesn't have that same counterplay, especially when charm is thrown into the mix.

I don’t switch to another skill line if it’s only on par. It needs to be better than what I currently have. I’m using Dark Deal which is one of the best sustain skills in the game, and I will be replacing it with HOF.

Like I said, this will do nothing but force competitive people to use another skill line instead of the status quo. Things get shuffled around, that is all. I can assure you that the meta builds using Assassination/Animal/Storm or Restoring Light will just switch to Assassination/Animal/Earthern next update. Ardent Flame is going to be top tier for a lot of builds as well and will be used by subclass builds. Nothing will change.

MincMincMinc · January 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Unless there's something in the dk passives that makes inhale sustain stronger when pure classed, which there isn't, only to damage itself, there's no reason to nerf it.

Subclassing doesnt mean we should open doors to allow imbalances.

Nightblade merciless now gives you 5k weapon damage and brushes your teeth for you.....oh well this is fine to have in the game, anyone can subclass it after all. This is just not a good line of reasoning, spend the time write out values and math for the actual backed conclusion.

Netch accounts for

176 restore per sec == 353.28 post buff regen == 218 prebuffed regen (assume meta buffs)
spam is 176 restore

DarkConversion(more than darkdeal cuz stamsorc sucks)

222.75 restore per sec == 445.5 post buff regen == 275 prebuff regen
Spam unbashed is 4500mag-3045stam == 1455 mag

HOF ......... lets assume a generous 60% of both 17k mag and 22k stam which are fairly meta values giving the benefit of the doubt that you have not swapped off regen food or anything else from meta.

22kstam*(1-0.6)*0.15 = 1320 stam == 1320 post buff regen == 815 prebuff regen
17kmag*(1-0.6)*0.15 = 1020 mag == 1020 post buff regen == 630 prebuff regen
60% resource spam = 1320+1020-3370 = -1030resources (you would only spam while blocking at low resources so not a great value for comparison spam wise)
20% resource spam = 2640+2040-3370 == 1310 resources (similar to darkconverge spam while being able to block, unbashable, and cast slightly faster)

HOF even given gracious build assumptions like not changing from regen to buff max stats and getting realistic 60% resources of low meta resources. It already does like 5x the constant sustain. Now zos could be assuming that nobody is going to inhale every 4s and assumes a 8s or 12s downtime which brings this constant running "regen" down over a longer period....the 5x would line up with one time usage every 20s like other sustain tools......................It is very likely zos used the average max stats and assumed 50% and then chose 15% missing to be equivalent to Dark Convergence. They got the numbers somehow, and my calcs are pretty on point for this notion.

At low resources during expected spam usage it is fairly equivalent to dark conversion without the massive hassle of casting and being bashed while unable to block. Again I want to highlight the ability for permablock abuse.

Feel free to point out errors here, I can update my values and repost as needed.