DK's Inhale's sustain change needs to be reverted

xylena · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

Screenshot taken from a duel

I seriously doubt it performs like that in OW where it goes dead every time you stop dealing damage, which is frequently when your only passive damage is Hurricane. Any number of defensive skills would be better than Surge in that slot for OW.

hoangdz · January 21

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Screenshot taken from a duel

I seriously doubt it performs like that in OW where it goes dead every time you stop dealing damage, which is frequently when your only passive damage is Hurricane. Any number of defensive skills would be better than Surge in that slot for OW.

Trust me, it works. You can try yourself if you doubt

xylena · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

Trust me, it works. You can try yourself if you doubt

I sure have, with all the time I've spent on DK, Sorc, and DK/Sorc hybrids.

I found Surge to be mediocre at best without sticky dots as enablers, my frame of reference being CA burst StamSorc in like 2018, testing subclassed onto NB, and a few random MagSorc stretches. I replaced it with a Scribing skill for the major buff last time I tried MagSorc.

With sticky dot enablers, Surge does like 3k+ hps. You're getting half that in a duel and not even using the major buff. I think you undervalue bar slots, which is leading you to overvalue Heart of Flame, where I see its opportunity cost balancing it.

BardokRedSnow · January 21

MincMincMinc wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Unless there's something in the dk passives that makes inhale sustain stronger when pure classed, which there isn't, only to damage itself, there's no reason to nerf it.

Subclassing doesnt mean we should open doors to allow imbalances.

Nightblade merciless now gives you 5k weapon damage and brushes your teeth for you.....oh well this is fine to have in the game, anyone can subclass it after all. This is just not a good line of reasoning, spend the time write out values and math for the actual backed conclusion.

Netch accounts for
176 restore per sec == 353.28 post buff regen == 218 prebuffed regen (assume meta buffs)

spam is 176 restore

DarkConversion(more than darkdeal cuz stamsorc sucks)
222.75 restore per sec == 445.5 post buff regen == 275 prebuff regen

Spam unbashed is 4500mag-3045stam == 1455 mag

HOF ......... lets assume a generous 60% of both 17k mag and 22k stam which are fairly meta values giving the benefit of the doubt that you have not swapped off regen food or anything else from meta.
22kstam*(1-0.6)*0.15 = 1320 stam == 1320 post buff regen == 815 prebuff regen

17kmag*(1-0.6)*0.15 = 1020 mag == 1020 post buff regen == 630 prebuff regen

60% resource spam = 1320+1020-3370 = -1030resources (you would only spam while blocking at low resources so not a great value for comparison spam wise)

20% resource spam = 2640+2040-3370 == 1310 resources (similar to darkconverge spam while being able to block, unbashable, and cast slightly faster)

HOF even given gracious build assumptions like not changing from regen to buff max stats and getting realistic 60% resources of low meta resources. It already does like 5x the constant sustain. Now zos could be assuming that nobody is going to inhale every 4s and assumes a 8s or 12s downtime which brings this constant running "regen" down over a longer period....the 5x would line up with one time usage every 20s like other sustain tools......................It is very likely zos used the average max stats and assumed 50% and then chose 15% missing to be equivalent to Dark Convergence. They got the numbers somehow, and my calcs are pretty on point for this notion.

At low resources during expected spam usage it is fairly equivalent to dark conversion without the massive hassle of casting and being bashed while unable to block. Again I want to highlight the ability for permablock abuse.

Feel free to point out errors here, I can update my values and repost as needed.

Bolded text is exactly my entire point of why this issue is exaggerated. Permablock builds to me aren't a concern, I safely ignore them until they're all thats left and they die alone.

hoangdz · January 21

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Trust me, it works. You can try yourself if you doubt

I sure have, with all the time I've spent on DK, Sorc, and DK/Sorc hybrids.

I found Surge to be mediocre at best without sticky dots as enablers, my frame of reference being CA burst StamSorc in like 2018, testing subclassed onto NB, and a few random MagSorc stretches. I replaced it with a Scribing skill for the major buff last time I tried MagSorc.

With sticky dot enablers, Surge does like 3k+ hps. You're getting half that in a duel and not even using the major buff. I think you undervalue bar slots, which is leading you to overvalue Heart of Flame, where I see its opportunity cost balancing it.

This is my HPS in an old duel with Surge vs a magsorc:

Using this build:

98 Surge procs in 4 minutes 2 seconds, that's a 40% proc chance for Surge off 2 AoE DoTs, 2-3 occasional 4s sticky DoTs, and mostly direct damage.

I only found Surge to be underwhelming when I'm heavily kiting. Otherwise, it's been performing very well for me. This is also why I am willing to double dip on Surge and Netch.

hoangdz · January 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Unless there's something in the dk passives that makes inhale sustain stronger when pure classed, which there isn't, only to damage itself, there's no reason to nerf it.

Subclassing doesnt mean we should open doors to allow imbalances.

Nightblade merciless now gives you 5k weapon damage and brushes your teeth for you.....oh well this is fine to have in the game, anyone can subclass it after all. This is just not a good line of reasoning, spend the time write out values and math for the actual backed conclusion.

Netch accounts for
176 restore per sec == 353.28 post buff regen == 218 prebuffed regen (assume meta buffs)

spam is 176 restore

DarkConversion(more than darkdeal cuz stamsorc sucks)
222.75 restore per sec == 445.5 post buff regen == 275 prebuff regen

Spam unbashed is 4500mag-3045stam == 1455 mag

HOF ......... lets assume a generous 60% of both 17k mag and 22k stam which are fairly meta values giving the benefit of the doubt that you have not swapped off regen food or anything else from meta.
22kstam*(1-0.6)*0.15 = 1320 stam == 1320 post buff regen == 815 prebuff regen

17kmag*(1-0.6)*0.15 = 1020 mag == 1020 post buff regen == 630 prebuff regen

60% resource spam = 1320+1020-3370 = -1030resources (you would only spam while blocking at low resources so not a great value for comparison spam wise)

20% resource spam = 2640+2040-3370 == 1310 resources (similar to darkconverge spam while being able to block, unbashable, and cast slightly faster)

HOF even given gracious build assumptions like not changing from regen to buff max stats and getting realistic 60% resources of low meta resources. It already does like 5x the constant sustain. Now zos could be assuming that nobody is going to inhale every 4s and assumes a 8s or 12s downtime which brings this constant running "regen" down over a longer period....the 5x would line up with one time usage every 20s like other sustain tools......................It is very likely zos used the average max stats and assumed 50% and then chose 15% missing to be equivalent to Dark Convergence. They got the numbers somehow, and my calcs are pretty on point for this notion.

At low resources during expected spam usage it is fairly equivalent to dark conversion without the massive hassle of casting and being bashed while unable to block. Again I want to highlight the ability for permablock abuse.

Feel free to point out errors here, I can update my values and repost as needed.

Bolded text is exactly my entire point of why this issue is exaggerated. Permablock builds to me aren't a concern, I safely ignore them until they're all thats left and they die alone.

When the meta settles you will see what I mean

MincMincMinc · January 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Unless there's something in the dk passives that makes inhale sustain stronger when pure classed, which there isn't, only to damage itself, there's no reason to nerf it.

Subclassing doesnt mean we should open doors to allow imbalances.

Nightblade merciless now gives you 5k weapon damage and brushes your teeth for you.....oh well this is fine to have in the game, anyone can subclass it after all. This is just not a good line of reasoning, spend the time write out values and math for the actual backed conclusion.

Netch accounts for
176 restore per sec == 353.28 post buff regen == 218 prebuffed regen (assume meta buffs)

spam is 176 restore

DarkConversion(more than darkdeal cuz stamsorc sucks)
222.75 restore per sec == 445.5 post buff regen == 275 prebuff regen

Spam unbashed is 4500mag-3045stam == 1455 mag

HOF ......... lets assume a generous 60% of both 17k mag and 22k stam which are fairly meta values giving the benefit of the doubt that you have not swapped off regen food or anything else from meta.
22kstam*(1-0.6)*0.15 = 1320 stam == 1320 post buff regen == 815 prebuff regen

17kmag*(1-0.6)*0.15 = 1020 mag == 1020 post buff regen == 630 prebuff regen

60% resource spam = 1320+1020-3370 = -1030resources (you would only spam while blocking at low resources so not a great value for comparison spam wise)

20% resource spam = 2640+2040-3370 == 1310 resources (similar to darkconverge spam while being able to block, unbashable, and cast slightly faster)

HOF even given gracious build assumptions like not changing from regen to buff max stats and getting realistic 60% resources of low meta resources. It already does like 5x the constant sustain. Now zos could be assuming that nobody is going to inhale every 4s and assumes a 8s or 12s downtime which brings this constant running "regen" down over a longer period....the 5x would line up with one time usage every 20s like other sustain tools......................It is very likely zos used the average max stats and assumed 50% and then chose 15% missing to be equivalent to Dark Convergence. They got the numbers somehow, and my calcs are pretty on point for this notion.

At low resources during expected spam usage it is fairly equivalent to dark conversion without the massive hassle of casting and being bashed while unable to block. Again I want to highlight the ability for permablock abuse.

Feel free to point out errors here, I can update my values and repost as needed.

Bolded text is exactly my entire point of why this issue is exaggerated. Permablock builds to me aren't a concern, I safely ignore them until they're all thats left and they die alone.

Average build usage seems balanced at the 50% mark. I suppose whats good is for an average build it is a higher skill cap concept. Good players will stack higher max stats and essentially play flappy bird with their resource pool. Falling down to low and then boosting back up. I agree with this higher skill cap sustain vs a generic flat regen rate like we see with netch and current Darkdeal

I would estimate most people are going to recast every 10s though in pvp, not the zos assumed 20s effectively doubling the sustain expected.......darkdeal doesnt 2x because of the recast loss so it is more like 1.75x.......netch is free over time so it stays the same. Most kill windows are only 3-4 gcds anyways. Assume a few gcds for post burst healing. Then you get back to recasting sustain and buffs > debuffs and repeat. Even stamsorc does this same rotation wasting half of darkdeal.

xylena · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

I only found Surge to be underwhelming when I'm heavily kiting

You run high armor face tank builds on Sorc, right. You're still only getting a fraction of Surge's value, 800 hps with no buff, compared to 2k-3k+ with major buff you get when enabled.

Since I mostly kite, I'd need to consider whether Heart of Flame is even worth slotting, the AoE damage component goes blank every time I'm on the defensive, an empty gcd under fire is a significant risk when you're not building to be face tanky. Sustain is not hard.

This does not seem like something that needs a nerf. Some troll tank bouncing between 10% and 50% resources by pressing a mid damage skill every 4sec isn't the threat. The build that one shots with an unblockable stun into burst ult atop a stack of procs is the threat.

If you want to crusade to nerf something, there are a million headaches ruining this game before "yet another sustain skill" like burst procs, group buff procs, permablock, subclass combos, etc.

MincMincMinc · January 21

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I only found Surge to be underwhelming when I'm heavily kiting

You run high armor face tank builds on Sorc, right. You're still only getting a fraction of Surge's value, 800 hps with no buff, compared to 2k-3k+ with major buff you get when enabled.

Wait what do you mean only 800hps? Its a constant value of 3300 that gets modified by % mods. Or do you mean uptime wise he gets less? In his case, the way he 1vX's its should be fairly consistent considering hurricane ticks on groups of 6+ enemies.

xylena · January 21

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Wait what do you mean only 800hps? Its a constant value of 3300 that gets modified by % mods. Or do you mean uptime wise he gets less? In his case, the way he 1vX's its should be fairly consistent considering hurricane ticks on groups of 6+ enemies.

Yeah I'm sure it's great when 6 bad players are in his face, most things are. Against a MagSorc where he couldn't consistently enable it, he got 800. This more accurately reflects average OW combat to me, where there is a lot of obnoxious range spam and obligated kiting.

Judging Surge only by "6 bad players in your face" is like judging Heart of Flame only by an open cast at 10% resources. The 3k+ hps ceiling on Surge might seem nerf-worthy to some too, but you're not always getting that, neither are you always hitting the ceiling on Heart of Flame.

hoangdz · January 21

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I only found Surge to be underwhelming when I'm heavily kiting

You run high armor face tank builds on Sorc, right. You're still only getting a fraction of Surge's value, 800 hps with no buff, compared to 2k-3k+ with major buff you get when enabled.

Since I mostly kite, I'd need to consider whether Heart of Flame is even worth slotting, the AoE damage component goes blank every time I'm on the defensive, an empty gcd under fire is a significant risk when you're not building to be face tanky. Sustain is not hard.

This does not seem like something that needs a nerf. Some troll tank bouncing between 10% and 50% resources by pressing a mid damage skill every 4sec isn't the threat. The build that one shots with an unblockable stun into burst ult atop a stack of procs is the threat.

If you want to crusade to nerf something, there are a million headaches ruining this game before "yet another sustain skill" like burst procs, group buff procs, permablock, subclass combos, etc.

Can you clarify what you meant in your first paragraph?

Right, sustain isn’t hard, but let’s not downplay it because you are also sacrificing something to get that sustain. In most cases, that’s:

- 4k mag and stam
- A red CP
- A recovery glyph
- A potion effect

You’re trading one stat for another. You aren’t magically gaining sustain from nothing. With Inhale though, you can:

- Run max stat food
- Drop Sustained by Suffering CP for something else
- Run another potion

I am going on a crusade against this skill because it can be abused like Dark Deal, but to a much greater degree. With Dark Deal, I am already fully specced into defense and damage. I dropped Sustained by Suffering to use Celerity. The only thing left I can drop is Tri Pots, but that’s not doable with Dark Deal. With Inhale tho, I can. I will be running double armor potions and using an infused ice staff back bar and 3x Infused glyphs when this goes live.

hoangdz · January 21

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Wait what do you mean only 800hps? Its a constant value of 3300 that gets modified by % mods. Or do you mean uptime wise he gets less? In his case, the way he 1vX's its should be fairly consistent considering hurricane ticks on groups of 6+ enemies.

Yeah I'm sure it's great when 6 bad players are in his face, most things are. Against a MagSorc where he couldn't consistently enable it, he got 800. This more accurately reflects average OW combat to me, where there is a lot of obnoxious range spam and obligated kiting.

Judging Surge only by "6 bad players in your face" is like judging Heart of Flame only by an open cast at 10% resources. The 3k+ hps ceiling on Surge might seem nerf-worthy to some too, but you're not always getting that, neither are you always hitting the ceiling on Heart of Flame.

800 is still a lot tho, and I can always proc it with a light attack + Ele sus combo from range. That’s 4 ticks of direct damage.

I’m not going to convince you with words, so I’ll do what I do best and post gameplay clips. I’ll be using zero tri pots and minimum recovery stat for all my duels. You’ll see what I mean.

MincMincMinc · January 21

xylena wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Wait what do you mean only 800hps? Its a constant value of 3300 that gets modified by % mods. Or do you mean uptime wise he gets less? In his case, the way he 1vX's its should be fairly consistent considering hurricane ticks on groups of 6+ enemies.

Yeah I'm sure it's great when 6 bad players are in his face, most things are. Against a MagSorc where he couldn't consistently enable it, he got 800. This more accurately reflects average OW combat to me, where there is a lot of obnoxious range spam and obligated kiting.

Judging Surge only by "6 bad players in your face" is like judging Heart of Flame only by an open cast at 10% resources. The 3k+ hps ceiling on Surge might seem nerf-worthy to some too, but you're not always getting that, neither are you always hitting the ceiling on Heart of Flame.

OK agreed then, this is what i tend to see on 1vX as I play more kite hit and run oldschool stamsorc concepts. In a good longterm 1v3+ fights not kiting I find critsurge is matches my vigor and healingsoul for overall healing in cmx.

xylena · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

I’m not going to convince you with words, so I’ll do what I do best and post gameplay clips. I’ll be using zero tri pots and minimum recovery stat for all my duels. You’ll see what I mean.

No need, I get that Hurricane is enough to enable it in duels or melee 1vX, but as you acknowledge it falls off when kiting in OW, which is why I don't like it there.

daemondamian · January 21

hoangdz wrote: »

This skill is providing TOO MUCH sustain on PTS in PvP. For 3.8k cost, it's restoring so much magicka and stamina that you can afford to run zero regen food and STILL sustain like someone with 3k recovery. You literally cannot run out of sustain with this skill active. Even if you are at 10% resources for both stam and mag, as long as you're able to cast Inhale, you will recover to 50% resources after it ends.

This results in situations where the DK player can choose to forgo building recovery completely and build into maximum damage/defense. This is something that only Sorcerer can pull off, and they can only do that for either stam or mag. DK does that for BOTH resources.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin Please forward this to the dev team so they can take a look at this skill.

As a solo PVE player I would much prefer if it were to be adjusted by battlespirit or some other means/qualifier than totally nerfed for PVE too just because it's too strong for PVP.

hoangdz · 3:33AM

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

I’m not going to convince you with words, so I’ll do what I do best and post gameplay clips. I’ll be using zero tri pots and minimum recovery stat for all my duels. You’ll see what I mean.

No need, I get that Hurricane is enough to enable it in duels or melee 1vX, but as you acknowledge it falls off when kiting in OW, which is why I don't like it there.

Doesn’t make it any less strong for most situations tho. If it functioned just as well during kiting then it deserves a tooltip nerf, which is what I suggested several times in the past (100% proc rate, lower tooltip).