DK's Inhale's sustain change needs to be reverted

Thumbless_Bot · January 20

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Aso, if we aren't changing things to be more powerful and, thus, more fun, what are we even doing here?

So apparently this skill alone is now “all the sustain you’ll ever need,” to the point where potions food and other sustain tools are supposedly optional. To prove it, the skill was showcased in its absolute best-case scenario — starting from near-zero resources. The result? Even under ideal conditions, it still ran out of resources while fighting basic adds that weren’t applying any CC.

I dont know what you are trying to relay. Apologies.

MXVIIDREAM · January 20

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Aso, if we aren't changing things to be more powerful and, thus, more fun, what are we even doing here?

So apparently this skill alone is now “all the sustain you’ll ever need,” to the point where potions food and other sustain tools are supposedly optional. To prove it, the skill was showcased in its absolute best-case scenario — starting from near-zero resources. The result? Even under ideal conditions, it still ran out of resources while fighting basic adds that weren’t applying any CC.

I dont know what you are trying to relay. Apologies.

It was sarcasm lol, he said this skill is enough to sustain dk infinitely in any content then proceeded to run out of resources while fighting basic adds😂
Dw he’s been outed now anyway he’s trolling to try get a class he struggles to beat nerfed

hoangdz · January 20

Radiate77 wrote: »

The objective of this refresh is for everything to feel strong, you can’t really say that this needs a nerf when there’s nothing to even compare it to.

None of the other classes have been reworked yet, so when we get Warden and Sorcerer, we will finally have enough of a sample size to measure the classes in respect to one another.

What do you mean there isn't anything to compare it to? You can compare Inhale to other individual skill effects, which is what I'm currently doing.

Sure, I agree that we will eventually get Warden and Sorcerer, but that's another 6-10 months of fighting nothing but pure DKs and/or DK subclass. The meta is going to be shifting towards building tankier than before.

hoangdz · January 20

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Aso, if we aren't changing things to be more powerful and, thus, more fun, what are we even doing here?

So apparently this skill alone is now “all the sustain you’ll ever need,” to the point where potions food and other sustain tools are supposedly optional. To prove it, the skill was showcased in its absolute best-case scenario — starting from near-zero resources. The result? Even under ideal conditions, it still ran out of resources while fighting basic adds that weren’t applying any CC.

I dont know what you are trying to relay. Apologies.

It was sarcasm lol, he said this skill is enough to sustain dk infinitely in any content then proceeded to run out of resources while fighting basic adds😂
Dw he’s been outed now anyway he’s trolling to try get a class he struggles to beat nerfed

"when fighting basic adds".

You're calling me biased yet you're intentionally ignoring the part when I said I was "permablocking and casting skills, and not using a single potion with 700 recovery to prove how overperforming Inhale is". Any other class would have gassed out much sooner, which is exactly what happened when I tried the same thing with Dark Deal. Anybody with some good faith can watch the videos and see exactly what I'm trying to convey.

BardokRedSnow · January 20

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

ZOS pls tune this ability down.

Pls also ignore the obvious DK mains that are trying to get a ridiculously OP skill over the line.

Any skill, regardless of class, that can negate the need for any and all sustain in such a way is overtuned. Do not drown this issue in “there are bigger problems”

This is a legit concern and the ability isn’t balanced at all.

The goal is to get dk to be on par with subclassing builds, and then warden and so on and so on. The skill is not overperforming this much, you still need at least some set for sustain, the suggestion to nerf this skill is sabotaging the refresh effort. You get 30 percent used resources back per cast, that’s 15 every 2 seconds. Meanwhile warden gets a cleanse and over 200 stamina or magicka of your choosing per second which if you’re blocking using one of those resources allows you to have some sort of recovery when it’s otherwise zero

This is essentially a free 200 or so recovery plus the 20 percent increased sustain from the passive itself…. And a cleanse

DK not having any sort of cleanse is a major negative of the class. These concerns are unfounded.

BardokRedSnow · January 20

The class refresh ain’t even out yet and people already begging to nerf us, is so annoying.

Radiate77 · January 20

hoangdz wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

The objective of this refresh is for everything to feel strong, you can’t really say that this needs a nerf when there’s nothing to even compare it to.

None of the other classes have been reworked yet, so when we get Warden and Sorcerer, we will finally have enough of a sample size to measure the classes in respect to one another.

What do you mean there isn't anything to compare it to? You can compare Inhale to other individual skill effects, which is what I'm currently doing.

Sure, I agree that we will eventually get Warden and Sorcerer, but that's another 6-10 months of fighting nothing but pure DKs and/or DK subclass. The meta is going to be shifting towards building tankier than before.

Exactly what I said, we have nothing to compare it to, and that’s the issue with how these are being done.

They should never have done this refresh 1 at a time, and if they had planned on it, they should have done 2 at first.

This first half of a year is going to be a mess, and there’s nothing we can say or do about it. It just is what it is at this point.

Radiate77 · January 20

We’re going to have a DK meta these next few months, then a Warden and DK meta for the following 3 months; then a Sorcerer + Warden + DK meta… and this will continue by adding another class until we have all of our reworks done.

MashmalloMan · January 20

I generally think the current design is alright, if not a bit underwhelming for the DPS department, but I can say I don't agree with giving equal stamina and magicka. I do think we need to see more reworks to see if 15% is the right value, but that's something they can change later.

This is Siphoning Strikes all over again, ZOS is attempting to hybridize sustain tools which is nice, we can get some unique morphs instead of a Betty or Dark Exchange situation where they're just blue or green, but your off resource getting full return feels very wrong.

Originally, the line they drew in the sand for hybridization was to not combine max resources OR resource recovery, yet they continue to fight against that concept with decisions like this.

In my opinion, abilities like Siphoning Strikes and Core of Flame should include dynamic scaling:

100% of highest max resource returned.
50% of lowest max resource returned.

Eg. A DK with 30k mag and 20k stam would get back 15% mag and 7.5% stam per tick instead of 15% for both.

Taking game balance out of the conversation, it just feels bad from a gameplay and roleplay standpoint. The lines are a little too blurred, the off resource pool is too easy to sustain. I like the idea that you can use anything, but I shouldn't feel like my off resource pool is much easier to sustain because of a combination of less dumps and more hybridized resource return effects.

All that said, I suppose 15% for Core vs a flat amount for Siphoning is in effect producing my idea because the return is lower due to the max being lower, but equal percentages still feel off because you're drain for that pool will effectively be much less too.

Thumbless_Bot · January 20

Radiate77 wrote: »

We’re going to have a DK meta these next few months, then a Warden and DK meta for the following 3 months; then a Sorcerer + Warden + DK meta… and this will continue by adding another class until we have all of our reworks done.

I just really hope the end result is fun and balanced with each class offering something... many things fun, new and different... and powerful... much much more powerful.

BardokRedSnow · January 20

From my perspective the changes make DK feel good, and fun. Not overpowered just actually good and it’s been a long time since it’s really been that way, meanwhile Sorc has been S tier for the majority of the lifespan of the game. Pure Dk still will not be as good as subclass builds by sweats, all this protesting is unnecessary.

Theres a reason they started with DK first, we need the most work.

MincMincMinc · January 20

Zos overbuffing during the reworks is probably also an acceptance tool. Powercreep and overbuff to start so people openly accept the new changes vs picking and choosing between old and new dk. Crazy values can be easily tweaked later, but the animations and mechanics are going to be set in stone.

Something new and crazy gets people to start talking again instead of everyone telling their friends how bad the game is since subclassing. Its just the hope train at work.

The week 1 summary says feedback has reported that DK on pts is underperforming and we will see more adjustments in week 4. (and by week 4 pts, they mean whatever they decide on will be on live probably)

BattleAxe · January 20

hoangdz wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

The objective of this refresh is for everything to feel strong, you can’t really say that this needs a nerf when there’s nothing to even compare it to.

None of the other classes have been reworked yet, so when we get Warden and Sorcerer, we will finally have enough of a sample size to measure the classes in respect to one another.

What do you mean there isn't anything to compare it to? You can compare Inhale to other individual skill effects, which is what I'm currently doing.

Sure, I agree that we will eventually get Warden and Sorcerer, but that's another 6-10 months of fighting nothing but pure DKs and/or DK subclass. The meta is going to be shifting towards building tankier than before.

I think to clarify what is meant nothing to compare it to is the idea that skills your comparing have not been reworked yet and will be once their respective classes are getting their refresh. Using the current numbers on skills versus the reworked inhale is not a fair comparison due to the fact those skills will be getting altered as well at some point.

Now onto the main topic please remember there are 2 halves of this game the PvP side and pve and nerfing inhale for the sake of one half hurts the other half. Problem is it’s difficult to balance the entire game around this fact.

Vaqual · 2:12AM

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Thumbless_Bot · 2:52AM

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Not true. There are many what if scenarios outlined above. Including mine. Your comments are compared against Live. Live is not applicable until all refreshes are complete so we can get a sense of balance across classes... this point is also called out several times above.

hoangdz · 3:21AM

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Hard to talk about balance when people aren’t willing to have a fair discussion. This has always been the case with PTS changes.

Vaqual · 3:32AM

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Not true. There are many what if scenarios outlined above. Including mine. Your comments are compared against Live. Live is not applicable until all refreshes are complete so we can get a sense of balance across classes... this point is also called out several times above.

If you imply that this would somehow fit a new standard, you basically imply that any existing sustain from gear and consumables is going to be intentionally devalued. If you can get 3x 6k resource ticks from mono resource-builds as they were not uncommon on last years 40k mag Ward-Sorc, what good will a 129 point set bonus do?

I don't need "a sense of balance" to see that this is extreme. You are simply arguing past the facts, like many "comments above".

hoangdz · 4:53AM

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Not true. There are many what if scenarios outlined above. Including mine. Your comments are compared against Live. Live is not applicable until all refreshes are complete so we can get a sense of balance across classes... this point is also called out several times above.

So you’re saying we’ll just have to endure through possibly 2 years of imbalance until we can make a final decision on class balance? IDK man that sounds pretty ineffective to me.

MXVIIDREAM · 6:37AM

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Again this is assuming absolute empty above 30% resources factor in the cost of the skill and the fact it’s missing resources not max as you calculate ld it and that number becomes between5-10% all the other resource restore skills in the game out perform it so what exactly is your point
That nothing should feel strong right now because the other classes are being refreshed over time so how dare this have a skill that’s strong and balanced during normal combat only out performing other class sustain skills at absolute low resources the kind where without clever play you’ll die anyway sure risk to reward on this skill is good get over it
It’s already comparable to dark deal and siphoning strikes BEFORE their rework it’s fine as it is and remember there’s pve side to this game aswell and this skill improves both tanks and supports aswell as dps great skill frankly doesn’t need to be touched unless in 2 years it revives more negative feed back than 3 people (one troll)vs the rest of the community

hoangdz · 8:16AM

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

It’s already comparable to dark deal and siphoning strikes

It isn't. I know you want your DK buffs but don't be spreading misinformation.

hoangdz · 8:20AM

I'll gladly donate 500k gold on PC NA to whoever can prove that PTS Inhale is comparable to Dark Deal. If you take on this challenge then I want to see

1) Sustain while playing defense
2) Sustain while spamming abilities uninterrupted
3) Sustain while kiting
4) Impact on overall DPS in a fight

Video clips only. Both builds should be identical in sustain values.

Vaqual · 10:32AM

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Again this is assuming absolute empty above 30% resources factor in the cost of the skill and the fact it’s missing resources not max as you calculate ld it and that number becomes between5-10% all the other resource restore skills in the game out perform it so what exactly is your point
That nothing should feel strong right now because the other classes are being refreshed over time so how dare this have a skill that’s strong and balanced during normal combat only out performing other class sustain skills at absolute low resources the kind where without clever play you’ll die anyway sure risk to reward on this skill is good get over it
It’s already comparable to dark deal and siphoning strikes BEFORE their rework it’s fine as it is and remember there’s pve side to this game aswell and this skill improves both tanks and supports aswell as dps great skill frankly doesn’t need to be touched unless in 2 years it revives more negative feed back than 3 people (one troll)vs the rest of the community

No you are simply not understanding. This isn't assuming and edge case, this is a scenario that a player can deliberately play into. I will spell it out in an abundantly simple way:

>You build high resource, you have to build no recovery
>You have sufficient resource == you are fine
>You approach the lower end of your resources and cast one Inhale/Core of flame == you are fine

It is simply impossible to run out, when you get 18k mag back for a 3-4k-ish cast. It is purely trivializing sustain for anyone willing to run a resource focused build without counterplay or significant drawback. Do you understand? If I cast Inhale and then gas out by going ham on mag for the next 4 casts I will still benefit from a full range recovery tick to enable another cast. It is by far the highest possible, unconditionally available recovery tool by an astronomically large margin, for anyone willing to invest a single thought into that matter. This enables players to maintain dramatic amounts of shields or pressure without any effort and by far exceeds the capacities of DD and SS for such builds - you saying otherwise doesn't make it true.
You can't even fully reach such a level by back to back casting SS and that would be literally melting your health bar.

And for the millionth time, I am not asking to nerf it to trash tier, I am trying to explain why it needs an upper limit.

Just accept reality. It doesn't matter if you get high ticks all the time, when you can make a damage stat heavy build with functionally infinite, near-passive, no-drawback resource sustain. Because max resources scale DPS and heals, while recovery doesn't.

What is my point? Either your calculations use the wrong numbers or we need to talk about math. And btw, this will be fully a abusable on any subclass. So DKs, without % resources, will not even be the strongest users of this ability.

hoangdz · 11:16AM

Vaqual wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Again this is assuming absolute empty above 30% resources factor in the cost of the skill and the fact it’s missing resources not max as you calculate ld it and that number becomes between5-10% all the other resource restore skills in the game out perform it so what exactly is your point
That nothing should feel strong right now because the other classes are being refreshed over time so how dare this have a skill that’s strong and balanced during normal combat only out performing other class sustain skills at absolute low resources the kind where without clever play you’ll die anyway sure risk to reward on this skill is good get over it
It’s already comparable to dark deal and siphoning strikes BEFORE their rework it’s fine as it is and remember there’s pve side to this game aswell and this skill improves both tanks and supports aswell as dps great skill frankly doesn’t need to be touched unless in 2 years it revives more negative feed back than 3 people (one troll)vs the rest of the community

No you are simply not understanding. This isn't assuming and edge case, this is a scenario that a player can deliberately play into. I will spell it out in an abundantly simple way:

>You build high resource, you have to build no recovery
>You have sufficient resource == you are fine
>You approach the lower end of your resources and cast one Inhale/Core of flame == you are fine

It is simply impossible to run out, when you get 18k mag back for a 3-4k-ish cast. It is purely trivializing sustain for anyone willing to run a resource focused build without counterplay or significant drawback. Do you understand? If I cast Inhale and then gas out by going ham on mag for the next 4 casts I will still benefit from a full range recovery tick to enable another cast. It is by far the highest possible, unconditionally available recovery tool by an astronomically large margin, for anyone willing to invest a single thought into that matter. This enables players to maintain dramatic amounts of shields or pressure without any effort and by far exceeds the capacities of DD and SS for such builds - you saying otherwise doesn't make it true.
You can't even fully reach such a level by back to back casting SS and that would be literally melting your health bar.

And for the millionth time, I am not asking to nerf it to trash tier, I am trying to explain why it needs an upper limit.

Just accept reality. It doesn't matter if you get high ticks all the time, when you can make a damage stat heavy build with functionally infinite, near-passive, no-drawback resource sustain. Because max resources scale DPS and heals, while recovery doesn't.

What is my point? Either your calculations use the wrong numbers or we need to talk about math. And btw, this will be fully a abusable on any subclass. So DKs, without % resources, will not even be the strongest users of this ability.

He doesn't understand. Or maybe he does but he's denying it. Anybody arguing in good faith, like @Turtle_Bot , can clearly see the problem, especially after I've demonstrated it on video.

hoangdz · 11:50AM

I don't think the people defending Inhale fully grasp the impact of this ability on their build. A normal build requires allocating stats between damage, sustain, healing, and defense. Even the current meta subclass builds on the live server, such as Assassination/Animal/Ritual or Assassination/Animal/Storm Calling, require trading one stat for another.

For example, this is a meta openworld build on the live server:

The empty slots are for Contingency and Healing Soul. Notice how I still need to use Orzoga food to sustain despite having Netch. This isn't some arbitrary claim. I've asked several users of this build and they all said that sustain felt best with this food. Also notice how I'm using 3x protective jewelries, as well as Fortified red CP to bring my resistances to 35k after Bloodspawn. Again, these traits are used because that's what the veteran players feel comfortable with, not some random number. This build looks like it has everything, and while I agree with that notion, the truth is you are still trading damage and healing (3x Infused jewelries, Sugar Skull food) for sustain (Orzoga food) and tankiness (3x Protective jewelries).

For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale? As demonstrated in several video clips above, Inhale allows you to do 3 things:

1) Switch from Orzoga to Sugar Skulls
2) Use double armor potions => switch from 3x Protective to 3x Infused
3) Drop Sustained By Suffering CP for Celerity CP

As a result, your max stats now go from:

30131 hp => 30470 hp
22010 stam => 26515 stam
17524 mag => 22029 mag
4979 wd => 5378 wd
35398 spell resist => 37108 spell resist
34672 physical resist => 36382 physical resist
10% extra movement speed

You now have more HP, max mag, and max stam. Your tooltip damage for Surprise Attack goes from 9763 to 10886. Your healing also increases. You also GAIN more armor despite dropping 3x Protective. You also move faster than before.

All of these stat increases happen because of ONE skill. No other skill on the live server can allow you to improve your stats this much. I have tried it with Dark Deal, but the sustain you get from it cannot match Inhale. With this ability, you can afford to reallocate all of your recovery stats to damage, mitigation, and mobility. This doesn't show up on the tooltip value, but it's something a good theory crafter will notice right away when they test Inhale.

xylena · 12:06PM

Radiate77 wrote: »

We’re going to have a DK meta these next few months, then a Warden and DK meta for the following 3 months; then a Sorcerer + Warden + DK meta… and this will continue by adding another class until we have all of our reworks done.

Still better than another 2 years of animal assassins.

There is absolutely nothing about the current build meta worth preserving.

Thumbless_Bot · 12:44PM

hoangdz wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Not true. There are many what if scenarios outlined above. Including mine. Your comments are compared against Live. Live is not applicable until all refreshes are complete so we can get a sense of balance across classes... this point is also called out several times above.

So you’re saying we’ll just have to endure through possibly 2 years of imbalance until we can make a final decision on class balance? IDK man that sounds pretty ineffective to me.

I didnt create this s storm, zos did by not releasing all refreshed classes at once.

But yes, i and others have already stated basically yes above.

Thumbless_Bot · 12:48PM

Vaqual wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Not true. There are many what if scenarios outlined above. Including mine. Your comments are compared against Live. Live is not applicable until all refreshes are complete so we can get a sense of balance across classes... this point is also called out several times above.

If you imply that this would somehow fit a new standard, you basically imply that any existing sustain from gear and consumables is going to be intentionally devalued. If you can get 3x 6k resource ticks from mono resource-builds as they were not uncommon on last years 40k mag Ward-Sorc, what good will a 129 point set bonus do?

I don't need "a sense of balance" to see that this is extreme. You are simply arguing past the facts, like many "comments above".

I do.

Play DK then. I did for seven years. Now I am a Warden main who identifies as a streaking Sorc. Cannot wait for those classes and the last thing I want is some shortsighted nerf hammer to kill this refresh before it even starts.

Something is going to be meta for the next while, pikely not two years. This or that. Might as well be DK.

MXVIIDREAM · 1:11PM

hoangdz wrote: »

I don't think the people defending Inhale fully grasp the impact of this ability on their build. A normal build requires allocating stats between damage, sustain, healing, and defense. Even the current meta subclass builds on the live server, such as Assassination/Animal/Ritual or Assassination/Animal/Storm Calling, require trading one stat for another.

For example, this is a meta openworld build on the live server:

The empty slots are for Contingency and Healing Soul. Notice how I still need to use Orzoga food to sustain despite having Netch. This isn't some arbitrary claim. I've asked several users of this build and they all said that sustain felt best with this food. Also notice how I'm using 3x protective jewelries, as well as Fortified red CP to bring my resistances to 35k after Bloodspawn. Again, these traits are used because that's what the veteran players feel comfortable with, not some random number. This build looks like it has everything, and while I agree with that notion, the truth is you are still trading damage and healing (3x Infused jewelries, Sugar Skull food) for sustain (Orzoga food) and tankiness (3x Protective jewelries).

For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale? As demonstrated in several video clips above, Inhale allows you to do 3 things:

1) Switch from Orzoga to Sugar Skulls
2) Use double armor potions => switch from 3x Protective to 3x Infused
3) Drop Sustained By Suffering CP for Celerity CP

As a result, your max stats now go from:

30131 hp => 30470 hp
22010 stam => 26515 stam
17524 mag => 22029 mag
4979 wd => 5378 wd
35398 spell resist => 37108 spell resist
34672 physical resist => 36382 physical resist
10% extra movement speed

You now have more HP, max mag, and max stam. Your tooltip damage for Surprise Attack goes from 9763 to 10886. Your healing also increases. You also GAIN more armor despite dropping 3x Protective. You also move faster than before.

All of these stat increases happen because of ONE skill. No other skill on the live server can allow you to improve your stats this much. I have tried it with Dark Deal, but the sustain you get from it cannot match Inhale. With this ability, you can afford to reallocate all of your recovery stats to damage, mitigation, and mobility. This doesn't show up on the tooltip value, but it's something a good theory crafter will notice right away when they test Inhale.

If you switch netch with inhale you loose you whole animal companio

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Not true. There are many what if scenarios outlined above. Including mine. Your comments are compared against Live. Live is not applicable until all refreshes are complete so we can get a sense of balance across classes... this point is also called out several times above.

If you imply that this would somehow fit a new standard, you basically imply that any existing sustain from gear and consumables is going to be intentionally devalued. If you can get 3x 6k resource ticks from mono resource-builds as they were not uncommon on last years 40k mag Ward-Sorc, what good will a 129 point set bonus do?

I don't need "a sense of balance" to see that this is extreme. You are simply arguing past the facts, like many "comments above".

I do.

Play DK then. I did for seven years. Now I am a Warden main who identifies as a streaking Sorc. Cannot wait for those classes and the last thing I want is some shortsighted nerf hammer to kill this refresh before it even starts.

Something is going to be meta for the next while, pikely not two years. This or that. Might as well be DK.

Let’s be honest it’s not going to be dk either it’s got one good subclassable line which may replace one of the meta ones possibly like that meta one the guy linked above but if he wants to replace animal companions he’s going to loose out on a lot with his lack of flame damage no cleanse no speed no berserk 😂 but like someone’s already said he’s not even played the dk on live just trolling here besides can’t beat the players that use it

xylena · 1:16PM

hoangdz wrote: »

So you’re saying we’ll just have to endure through possibly 2 years of imbalance

Yeah. Worst case scenario, nothing has changed. Can't break what's already broken... wait, you don't seriously think the Live meta is balanced as is, do you?

hoangdz · 1:22PM

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

If you switch netch with inhale you loose you whole animal companio

Jesus, I can't tell if you're trolling or genuinely being serious. I literally said "For arguments sake, what happens when I replace Netch with Inhale", meaning I'm trying to compare the SUSTAIN portion of these 2 abilities. Please try to understand the message that is being conveyed.