evLRise wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

No, it doesn't... You can achieve the very same results with Siphoning Attacks or Dark Deal/Conversion (if you want to do the latter while blocking, just get Light Weaver passive from Restoring Light).

Inhale is a strong sustain skill as well now, I see nothing wrong with that.

If anything, they should introduce something similar to other classes too that are still missing sustain abilities and make them thematically different.

Itd be nice if darkdeal went back to its flat resource return. The overtime ruined the point of the skill and was a sad attempt at copying warden's netch.

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Inhale needs to be adjusted BADLY. Any build is going to be able to permablock with this one skill. "Strong" is a vast understatement.

15% every 2s is insane though just some rough meta pvp numbers from one of my builds.
31khp == 4650hp == 2325hpPvP
16.5kmag == 2475 return/2s
22.2kstam == 3330 return/2s
In total over 3 ticks thats 24390 resources from paying 3370

Even darkdeal trades 2700 for 8560 combined resources over that same 4s period. Except darkdeal is bashable and leaves you open, not to mention on a janky long cast time. Oh and I can't maintain permablock with darkdeal.

Yeah, because you'll constantly be at 0% resources lmao. You want about 5.2k stam left at all times in PvP, otherwise you're outside break free range and you definitely die. Even if you're EXACTLY at the min threshold where u wanna stay that's 17k stam for 17k our of 22.2k is 76%. You'd recover 15% of 76% which is 2.5k. Siphoning Strikes gives 2.6k on cast and also lots of passive sustain. You'll also get ~4k stam back from sustain and the 1st tick by the time this effect finished. Oh no. In the BEST CASE SCENARIO I got 4k stam back over 4s. Surely a nightblade doesn't get 2600 + 4x 200 for 3400 in a 4s interval from a single cast as well, right?

BuT WhAt AbOuT MaG? You get both resources!!!!!!!

16.5k mag. you need 3.5k to cast the skill so you have 13k missing mag. that's 1.95k mag return on 1st tick. 3.5-4k mag goes up after 2s from sustain and the restore -> 9k missing mag. You get 3.3k mag back, again, IN THE BEST CASE SCENARIO.

Therefore, rather easy conclusion. It's the same as Siphoning Strikes.

Dark deal gives 4560 stam over 4s btw. Dark Deal also heals a ton AND insantly, just saying Only about half your health really, which is not worth mentioning I guess, but let's assume 10k. And you can cast it multiple times in a row, with diminishing returns obviously - the same which applies here. Oh and did I mention that Minor Berserk is pretty rare since Camo Hunter is a rather bad skill? A strong free buff is not something we mention, do we? Might skew our mental gymnastics if we did.

Did I also mention that a class rework is not supposed to make the class trash? No? Maybe it's worth mentioning this, and also the fact that eventually every class will get a refresh.

So we have:
A skill that gives back ~14000 resources instantly and another 1440 over the last 6s without you having to do anything. That would be 4450 stam over 4s + a big burst heal AND a nice buff.
A skill that gives back 5200 resources, than another 400/s indefinitely without doing anything ( which is 4000/10s ) for a total of 6.8k over 4s. A
A skill that gives 3.3 and 3.5 over 4s In the BEST case scenario, for a total of 6.8.

Oh my Godd! Would you look at that. They're balanced

xylena wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

So if my build is tanky enough and has a burst heal to recover from damage, my sustain is good enough to not really need DD, and the buffs DD bring are already covered by other sources, then what is the point of DD? When you compare it to Inhale, I hope you see why I am bringing up this issue.

So you acknowledge sustain is already busted without HOF. If sustain is good enough to not need DD, then it's good enough to not need HOF, you can slot something higher damage. HOF might be an enabler in degenerate one shots with charged whip + subclass jav + null arca etc, the far bigger problem is the proc sets and subclassing, nerfing HOF would accomplish nothing here.

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

ZOS pls tune this ability down.

Pls also ignore the obvious DK mains that are trying to get a ridiculously OP skill over the line.

Any skill, regardless of class, that can negate the need for any and all sustain in such a way is overtuned. Do not drown this issue in “there are bigger problems”

This is a legit concern and the ability isn’t balanced at all.

hoangdz wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

The objective of this refresh is for everything to feel strong, you can’t really say that this needs a nerf when there’s nothing to even compare it to.

None of the other classes have been reworked yet, so when we get Warden and Sorcerer, we will finally have enough of a sample size to measure the classes in respect to one another.

What do you mean there isn't anything to compare it to? You can compare Inhale to other individual skill effects, which is what I'm currently doing.

Sure, I agree that we will eventually get Warden and Sorcerer, but that's another 6-10 months of fighting nothing but pure DKs and/or DK subclass. The meta is going to be shifting towards building tankier than before.

• 100% of highest max resource returned.
• 50% of lowest max resource returned.

hoangdz wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

The objective of this refresh is for everything to feel strong, you can’t really say that this needs a nerf when there’s nothing to even compare it to.

None of the other classes have been reworked yet, so when we get Warden and Sorcerer, we will finally have enough of a sample size to measure the classes in respect to one another.

What do you mean there isn't anything to compare it to? You can compare Inhale to other individual skill effects, which is what I'm currently doing.

Sure, I agree that we will eventually get Warden and Sorcerer, but that's another 6-10 months of fighting nothing but pure DKs and/or DK subclass. The meta is going to be shifting towards building tankier than before.

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Not true. There are many what if scenarios outlined above. Including mine. Your comments are compared against Live. Live is not applicable until all refreshes are complete so we can get a sense of balance across classes... this point is also called out several times above.

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Vaqual wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are so many emotional comments in this thread that do not engage the slightest bit with the subject. The potential recovery ticks that can be reached on high resource builds are absolutely mind-boggling, twice or thrice what builds with heavy recovery would have run in the past years - from a single button click without any drawbacks besides a self-compensating resource cost. But instead of genuinely engaging with the topic, to help the Devs with creating an ability that will be enjoyable and sustainable in the future, people behave like belligerent children with reading comprehension issues, acting out as if any change that isn't a buff is perceived as a personal attack. I can not understand how people can look at the tooltips, read the numbers therein, and not reach the consensual conclusion that the maximum potential of this ability doesn't seem to fit the bill.

Again this is assuming absolute empty above 30% resources factor in the cost of the skill and the fact it’s missing resources not max as you calculate ld it and that number becomes between5-10% all the other resource restore skills in the game out perform it so what exactly is your point
That nothing should feel strong right now because the other classes are being refreshed over time so how dare this have a skill that’s strong and balanced during normal combat only out performing other class sustain skills at absolute low resources the kind where without clever play you’ll die anyway sure risk to reward on this skill is good get over it
It’s already comparable to dark deal and siphoning strikes BEFORE their rework it’s fine as it is and remember there’s pve side to this game aswell and this skill improves both tanks and supports aswell as dps great skill frankly doesn’t need to be touched unless in 2 years it revives more negative feed back than 3 people (one troll)vs the rest of the community

No you are simply not understanding. This isn't assuming and edge case, this is a scenario that a player can deliberately play into. I will spell it out in an abundantly simple way:

>You build high resource, you have to build no recovery
>You have sufficient resource == you are fine
>You approach the lower end of your resources and cast one Inhale/Core of flame == you are fine

It is simply impossible to run out, when you get 18k mag back for a 3-4k-ish cast. It is purely trivializing sustain for anyone willing to run a resource focused build without counterplay or significant drawback. Do you understand? If I cast Inhale and then gas out by going ham on mag for the next 4 casts I will still benefit from a full range recovery tick to enable another cast. It is by far the highest possible, unconditionally available recovery tool by an astronomically large margin, for anyone willing to invest a single thought into that matter. This enables players to maintain dramatic amounts of shields or pressure without any effort and by far exceeds the capacities of DD and SS for such builds - you saying otherwise doesn't make it true.
You can't even fully reach such a level by back to back casting SS and that would be literally melting your health bar.

And for the millionth time, I am not asking to nerf it to trash tier, I am trying to explain why it needs an upper limit.

Just accept reality. It doesn't matter if you get high ticks all the time, when you can make a damage stat heavy build with functionally infinite, near-passive, no-drawback resource sustain. Because max resources scale DPS and heals, while recovery doesn't.

What is my point? Either your calculations use the wrong numbers or we need to talk about math. And btw, this will be fully a abusable on any subclass. So DKs, without % resources, will not even be the strongest users of this ability.