Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Teeba_Shei
You can spin it any way you want but we all know being able to stack 8+ echoings/ radiating is a problem.

Most players don’t stack 8+ echoings in real play, and even when it happens, it doesn’t make a group invincible. PUGs, solo players, and smaller coordinated teams do find ways to counter stacked heals and kill these players.

Correct, it's not just the stacking of 12x separate sticky HoTs contributing to 30k per second healing and 16k+ shielding from non-ultimates that can be refreshed every gcd. It's also the group being at movement speed cap that also makes them functionally invincible. The counter-play to excessive healing and shielding, is excessive numerical damage aka making their healthbars drop to zero... but everything that can deliver that, is at the mercy of the group moving as a unit, the speed of mach seven so none of this excessive damage can do any damage.

Lets do a little fact checking, you claimed that having 12 Echoing Vigors active at once results in 30,000 healing per second. Let’s check the math. The tooltip on one Echoing Vigor shows around 20,000 total healing over 16 seconds, which works out to 1,250 healing per second. If you apply a 55% reduction from battle spirit, that drops to 562.5 healing per second per cast. Even if you stacked 12 of them, the total healing per second would be 562.5 times 12, which equals 6,750 HPS. That’s nowhere near 30,000. In fact, the claim is more than four times too high.

This clearly proves that the person making the claim is completely misinformed. How can anyone take an opinion this blatantly wrong about the game’s most basic mechanics seriously, especially on a change this huge? Spouting numbers that are off by more than four times isn’t just a mistake—it’s recklessly misleading and undermines any real discussion about the game.

I'm not going to be including the cyrodil passive that increases healing by 20% when near a keep in these values because of course there are other factors which would make the final calculations a bit less in game so this will offset that.

Echoing: 23610/16 = 1475 hps
Radiating: 25170= 2517 hps
total: 3992
cyro healing debuff: -50% = 1996
12x for members= 23952 hps

BUT WAIT I have crit modifiers:
At 60% increased crit healing from modifiers like lucent that 23952 value goes up to 1.6* 23,952= 38,323 hps if everything crits.

Using a 30% crit chance (which is what I had on the build editor). and using a weighted average formula:
(23952*0.70) + (38,323*0.30) = 28,264 AVERAGE hps from 2 skills so . . .yeah.

values from the build editor which currently doesn't let me save builds, but you can recreate it yourself. Sets I put on the healer were powerful assault and lucent echos. 3x swift snow treaders 2x earthgore. And ofc I included buffs you would get from a ball group like major courage from olo etc.

Besides the fact that you don’t know what the actual Battle Spirit heal reduction is, your numbers are insanely high. The other person also said 12 sticky HoTs, not 24. I went into a build calculator to try to reach the Echoing Vigor tooltip you’re claiming. Do these stats sound reasonable to you, even within a ball group? (They’re not.)

11635 SPELL DAMAGE
27607 STAMINA

This once again proves that people in this thread know nothing about the actual game and shouldn’t be taken seriously. Keep in mind, I had to enable every single spell damage buff in the build calculator—including running simmering frenzy, just coming out of stealth, having every possible scroll bonus, and using a completely unrealistic build that would never work in a ball group.

Try again buddy you dont need anywhere near that spell damage

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Teeba_Shei
You can spin it any way you want but we all know being able to stack 8+ echoings/ radiating is a problem.

Most players don’t stack 8+ echoings in real play, and even when it happens, it doesn’t make a group invincible. PUGs, solo players, and smaller coordinated teams do find ways to counter stacked heals and kill these players.

Correct, it's not just the stacking of 12x separate sticky HoTs contributing to 30k per second healing and 16k+ shielding from non-ultimates that can be refreshed every gcd. It's also the group being at movement speed cap that also makes them functionally invincible. The counter-play to excessive healing and shielding, is excessive numerical damage aka making their healthbars drop to zero... but everything that can deliver that, is at the mercy of the group moving as a unit, the speed of mach seven so none of this excessive damage can do any damage.

Lets do a little fact checking, you claimed that having 12 Echoing Vigors active at once results in 30,000 healing per second. Let’s check the math. The tooltip on one Echoing Vigor shows around 20,000 total healing over 16 seconds, which works out to 1,250 healing per second. If you apply a 55% reduction from battle spirit, that drops to 562.5 healing per second per cast. Even if you stacked 12 of them, the total healing per second would be 562.5 times 12, which equals 6,750 HPS. That’s nowhere near 30,000. In fact, the claim is more than four times too high.

This clearly proves that the person making the claim is completely misinformed. How can anyone take an opinion this blatantly wrong about the game’s most basic mechanics seriously, especially on a change this huge? Spouting numbers that are off by more than four times isn’t just a mistake—it’s recklessly misleading and undermines any real discussion about the game.

I'm not going to be including the cyrodil passive that increases healing by 20% when near a keep in these values because of course there are other factors which would make the final calculations a bit less in game so this will offset that.

Echoing: 23610/16 = 1475 hps
Radiating: 25170= 2517 hps
total: 3992
cyro healing debuff: -50% = 1996
12x for members= 23952 hps

BUT WAIT I have crit modifiers:
At 60% increased crit healing from modifiers like lucent that 23952 value goes up to 1.6* 23,952= 38,323 hps if everything crits.

Using a 30% crit chance (which is what I had on the build editor). and using a weighted average formula:
(23952*0.70) + (38,323*0.30) = 28,264 AVERAGE hps from 2 skills so . . .yeah.

values from the build editor which currently doesn't let me save builds, but you can recreate it yourself. Sets I put on the healer were powerful assault and lucent echos. 3x swift snow treaders 2x earthgore. And ofc I included buffs you would get from a ball group like major courage from olo etc.

Besides the fact that you don’t know what the actual Battle Spirit heal reduction is, your numbers are insanely high. The other person also said 12 sticky HoTs, not 24. I went into a build calculator to try to reach the Echoing Vigor tooltip you’re claiming. Do these stats sound reasonable to you, even within a ball group? (They’re not.)

11635 SPELL DAMAGE
27607 STAMINA

This once again proves that people in this thread know nothing about the actual game and shouldn’t be taken seriously. Keep in mind, I had to enable every single spell damage buff in the build calculator—including running simmering frenzy, just coming out of stealth, having every possible scroll bonus, and using a completely unrealistic build that would never work in a ball group.

Try again buddy you dont need anywhere near that spell damage

You aren't applying battle spirit. That's the pve number.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just log on tonight and snipit your cmx what your average tick is. It can probably also show you that more than 6 of your group's vigors can be on you at once too.

My average tick from last night is 1.6k so 800 HPS.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Teeba_Shei
You can spin it any way you want but we all know being able to stack 8+ echoings/ radiating is a problem.

Most players don’t stack 8+ echoings in real play, and even when it happens, it doesn’t make a group invincible. PUGs, solo players, and smaller coordinated teams do find ways to counter stacked heals and kill these players.

Correct, it's not just the stacking of 12x separate sticky HoTs contributing to 30k per second healing and 16k+ shielding from non-ultimates that can be refreshed every gcd. It's also the group being at movement speed cap that also makes them functionally invincible. The counter-play to excessive healing and shielding, is excessive numerical damage aka making their healthbars drop to zero... but everything that can deliver that, is at the mercy of the group moving as a unit, the speed of mach seven so none of this excessive damage can do any damage.

Lets do a little fact checking, you claimed that having 12 Echoing Vigors active at once results in 30,000 healing per second. Let’s check the math. The tooltip on one Echoing Vigor shows around 20,000 total healing over 16 seconds, which works out to 1,250 healing per second. If you apply a 55% reduction from battle spirit, that drops to 562.5 healing per second per cast. Even if you stacked 12 of them, the total healing per second would be 562.5 times 12, which equals 6,750 HPS. That’s nowhere near 30,000. In fact, the claim is more than four times too high.

This clearly proves that the person making the claim is completely misinformed. How can anyone take an opinion this blatantly wrong about the game’s most basic mechanics seriously, especially on a change this huge? Spouting numbers that are off by more than four times isn’t just a mistake—it’s recklessly misleading and undermines any real discussion about the game.

I'm not going to be including the cyrodil passive that increases healing by 20% when near a keep in these values because of course there are other factors which would make the final calculations a bit less in game so this will offset that.

Echoing: 23610/16 = 1475 hps
Radiating: 25170= 2517 hps
total: 3992
cyro healing debuff: -50% = 1996
12x for members= 23952 hps

BUT WAIT I have crit modifiers:
At 60% increased crit healing from modifiers like lucent that 23952 value goes up to 1.6* 23,952= 38,323 hps if everything crits.

Using a 30% crit chance (which is what I had on the build editor). and using a weighted average formula:
(23952*0.70) + (38,323*0.30) = 28,264 AVERAGE hps from 2 skills so . . .yeah.

values from the build editor which currently doesn't let me save builds, but you can recreate it yourself. Sets I put on the healer were powerful assault and lucent echos. 3x swift snow treaders 2x earthgore. And ofc I included buffs you would get from a ball group like major courage from olo etc.

This conversation is going in circles but you do not ever have 12x of either of those HOTs on you at any time no matter how good the players involved are.

The targeting mechanics of Vigor prevent that from being possible. Most players in this thread do not even know what those mechanics are which is why it is difficult to have these sorts of conversations.

It is considered to be exceptional play by a healer to maintain 60% uptime per target across all 12 players of a raid. For Radiating Regen, a much shorter HOT with 1/2 the targets hit per cast, that value is 40%. All players run Vigor but DDs no longer run Radiating as their back-option, which makes it a healer-exclusive skill.

So a ballgroup comprised of players with S-Tier casting mechanics, has, being generous, 8 stacks of Vigor and 3-4 stacks of Radiating on them. That is, a) too many, particularly of Vigor, but also, b) not at all close to 24 stacks of HOTs like is commonly portrayed.

That’s crazy because when I played in a group my uptimes DURING a fight were way higher than that on both.

Either way I was just using the set condition he put out which was multiplying by 12

Maintaining Vigor coverage becomes exponentially more difficult as you add more players to a group size. A group with 12 players is functionally impossible to maintain 100% uptime across all players.

Because the skill does not have a "smart" system for choosing targets at full health or even a proximity-based mechanism for selecting its targets (nearest-proximity is how abilities such as Scribing shields behave, which comes with its own set of issues for uptime).

If you have 12 players and loosely stack them and cast Vigor twice the Vigor will go the exact same 6 players both times, leaving the other 6 completely without the HOT. This situation will persist no matter how many times that you cast Vigor. You can spam it an infinite number of times but you will never, ever hit the other 6 targets.

Cyrodiil, and all locations in the game, are divided into invisible grid chunks for the purposes of the engine and this bears heavily upon how abilities such as heals select their targets. But, of course, the layperson in this thread thinks it's as simple as casting the skill twice and viola you maintain perfect coverage over an entire raid. I wish that it were that easy.

6 players is actually the ideal group size for maximizing Vigor uptime because it only takes one cast every 16 seconds to cover the entire group. If you compared the log results for a sweaty 6-man and a sweaty 12-man and both groups used Vigor, the 6-player group would have FAR better per player uptime (it would be 100%) vs. the 12-player group. A 12-player raid is fighting against game mechanics when it comes to HOTs whereas 6 players is embracing it.

I hope that this is helpful for any readers trying to better understand this issue as well as how the game actually works. A ballgroup healer does not simply roll their face on the keyboard and mystically achieve CHIM, as is commonly portrayed, and it really weakens anyone's argument when they traffic in those sorts of uninformed exaggerations.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I hope that this is helpful for any readers trying to better understand this issue as well as how the game actually works. A ballgroup healer does not simply roll their face on the keyboard and mystically achieve CHIM, as is commonly portrayed, and it really weakens anyone's argument when they traffic in those sorts of uninformed exaggerations.

ioResult wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I hope that this is helpful for any readers trying to better understand this issue as well as how the game actually works. A ballgroup healer does not simply roll their face on the keyboard and mystically achieve CHIM, as is commonly portrayed, and it really weakens anyone's argument when they traffic in those sorts of uninformed exaggerations.

No, none of this is helpful because you have zero claim to non-bias on this issue. Just a couple of weeks ago we watched you get caught on your horse on your way to Blackboot and after getting hit you just stood there and healed and blocked through all of the damage that 5 or 6 veteran Cyrodiil players all glass cannons spec'd into damage, pen and crit could hit you with - everything they had - until they just got bored and annoyed and just walked away because your build does nothing but abuse the terrible state of healing, shields and mitigation that is currently the meta in Cyrodiil.

You have no credibility because you take abusive advantage of this meta so of course you want nothing changed. You're part of the problem, not the solution.

heaven13 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just log on tonight and snipit your cmx what your average tick is. It can probably also show you that more than 6 of your group's vigors can be on you at once too.

My average tick from last night is 1.6k so 800 HPS.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Teeba_Shei
You can spin it any way you want but we all know being able to stack 8+ echoings/ radiating is a problem.

Most players don’t stack 8+ echoings in real play, and even when it happens, it doesn’t make a group invincible. PUGs, solo players, and smaller coordinated teams do find ways to counter stacked heals and kill these players.

Correct, it's not just the stacking of 12x separate sticky HoTs contributing to 30k per second healing and 16k+ shielding from non-ultimates that can be refreshed every gcd. It's also the group being at movement speed cap that also makes them functionally invincible. The counter-play to excessive healing and shielding, is excessive numerical damage aka making their healthbars drop to zero... but everything that can deliver that, is at the mercy of the group moving as a unit, the speed of mach seven so none of this excessive damage can do any damage.

Lets do a little fact checking, you claimed that having 12 Echoing Vigors active at once results in 30,000 healing per second. Let’s check the math. The tooltip on one Echoing Vigor shows around 20,000 total healing over 16 seconds, which works out to 1,250 healing per second. If you apply a 55% reduction from battle spirit, that drops to 562.5 healing per second per cast. Even if you stacked 12 of them, the total healing per second would be 562.5 times 12, which equals 6,750 HPS. That’s nowhere near 30,000. In fact, the claim is more than four times too high.

This clearly proves that the person making the claim is completely misinformed. How can anyone take an opinion this blatantly wrong about the game’s most basic mechanics seriously, especially on a change this huge? Spouting numbers that are off by more than four times isn’t just a mistake—it’s recklessly misleading and undermines any real discussion about the game.

I'm not going to be including the cyrodil passive that increases healing by 20% when near a keep in these values because of course there are other factors which would make the final calculations a bit less in game so this will offset that.

Echoing: 23610/16 = 1475 hps
Radiating: 25170= 2517 hps
total: 3992
cyro healing debuff: -50% = 1996
12x for members= 23952 hps

BUT WAIT I have crit modifiers:
At 60% increased crit healing from modifiers like lucent that 23952 value goes up to 1.6* 23,952= 38,323 hps if everything crits.

Using a 30% crit chance (which is what I had on the build editor). and using a weighted average formula:
(23952*0.70) + (38,323*0.30) = 28,264 AVERAGE hps from 2 skills so . . .yeah.

values from the build editor which currently doesn't let me save builds, but you can recreate it yourself. Sets I put on the healer were powerful assault and lucent echos. 3x swift snow treaders 2x earthgore. And ofc I included buffs you would get from a ball group like major courage from olo etc.

This conversation is going in circles but you do not ever have 12x of either of those HOTs on you at any time no matter how good the players involved are.

The targeting mechanics of Vigor prevent that from being possible. Most players in this thread do not even know what those mechanics are which is why it is difficult to have these sorts of conversations.

It is considered to be exceptional play by a healer to maintain 60% uptime per target across all 12 players of a raid. For Radiating Regen, a much shorter HOT with 1/2 the targets hit per cast, that value is 40%. All players run Vigor but DDs no longer run Radiating as their back-option, which makes it a healer-exclusive skill.

So a ballgroup comprised of players with S-Tier casting mechanics, has, being generous, 8 stacks of Vigor and 3-4 stacks of Radiating on them. That is, a) too many, particularly of Vigor, but also, b) not at all close to 24 stacks of HOTs like is commonly portrayed.

That’s crazy because when I played in a group my uptimes DURING a fight were way higher than that on both.

Either way I was just using the set condition he put out which was multiplying by 12

Maintaining Vigor coverage becomes exponentially more difficult as you add more players to a group size. A group with 12 players is functionally impossible to maintain 100% uptime across all players.

Because the skill does not have a "smart" system for choosing targets at full health or even a proximity-based mechanism for selecting its targets (nearest-proximity is how abilities such as Scribing shields behave, which comes with its own set of issues for uptime).

If you have 12 players and loosely stack them and cast Vigor twice the Vigor will go the exact same 6 players both times, leaving the other 6 completely without the HOT. This situation will persist no matter how many times that you cast Vigor. You can spam it an infinite number of times but you will never, ever hit the other 6 targets.

Cyrodiil, and all locations in the game, are divided into invisible grid chunks for the purposes of the engine and this bears heavily upon how abilities such as heals select their targets. But, of course, the layperson in this thread thinks it's as simple as casting the skill twice and viola you maintain perfect coverage over an entire raid. I wish that it were that easy.

6 players is actually the ideal group size for maximizing Vigor uptime because it only takes one cast every 16 seconds to cover the entire group. If you compared the log results for a sweaty 6-man and a sweaty 12-man and both groups used Vigor, the 6-player group would have FAR better per player uptime (it would be 100%) vs. the 12-player group. A 12-player raid is fighting against game mechanics when it comes to HOTs whereas 6 players is embracing it.

I hope that this is helpful for any readers trying to better understand this issue as well as how the game actually works. A ballgroup healer does not simply roll their face on the keyboard and mystically achieve CHIM, as is commonly portrayed, and it really weakens anyone's argument when they traffic in those sorts of uninformed exaggerations.

Asking for understanding because I have never run in a ballgroup and appreciate that you are patiently trying to explain things. In a 6 man group, if you cast Vigor every 16 seconds, you should have perfect uptime if only one person runs it. In a 12 man, with it working the way you explained and knowing 1 healer cannot get perfect uptime because there's no way to smartly target, how many players (not healers) are running Vigor to counter this?

ioResult wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I hope that this is helpful for any readers trying to better understand this issue as well as how the game actually works. A ballgroup healer does not simply roll their face on the keyboard and mystically achieve CHIM, as is commonly portrayed, and it really weakens anyone's argument when they traffic in those sorts of uninformed exaggerations.

No, none of this is helpful because you have zero claim to non-bias on this issue. Just a couple of weeks ago we watched you get caught on your horse on your way to Blackboot and after getting hit you just stood there and healed and blocked through all of the damage that 5 or 6 veteran Cyrodiil players all glass cannons spec'd into damage, pen and crit could hit you with - everything they had - until they just got bored and annoyed and just walked away because your build does nothing but abuse the terrible state of healing, shields and mitigation that is currently the meta in Cyrodiil.

You have no credibility because you take abusive advantage of this meta so of course you want nothing changed. You're part of the problem, not the solution.

ioResult wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

There is no way he was in a ballgroup setup and 5-6 people couldn't kill him, this is a troll post.

Additionally, the only spec that lives through this is someone hardcore LoSing which has nothing really to do with the build unless you count speed, or a legit block tank that does zero damage. If you fail to kill him on any other spec, the 5-6 are not pure damage, or even slightly damage oriented. Ballgroup healers die very easily if they are alone.

You are exactly what is wrong with the world today. I was THERE. I saw it with my own eyes. There was no LOS'ing. Just heal, shield, block while Mag regens, repeat.

What sets they were in is immaterial. My comment was regarding the fact that they are not considered non-biased on the issue. And oh by the way, neither are you. Human centipede Hot-stacking is a crutch PvP playstyle for ESO and every other MMO in which you can do it.

And what does it matter? Gina already announced ZOS has instantly caved on this change because of all the ball group clowns crying in this thread. So don't worry, all ball groupers get to continue running around in 12-man groups acting as if they can actually PvP.

ioResult wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I hope that this is helpful for any readers trying to better understand this issue as well as how the game actually works. A ballgroup healer does not simply roll their face on the keyboard and mystically achieve CHIM, as is commonly portrayed, and it really weakens anyone's argument when they traffic in those sorts of uninformed exaggerations.

No, none of this is helpful because you have zero claim to non-bias on this issue. Just a couple of weeks ago we watched you get caught on your horse on your way to Blackboot and after getting hit you just stood there and healed and blocked through all of the damage that 5 or 6 veteran Cyrodiil players all glass cannons spec'd into damage, pen and crit could hit you with - everything they had - until they just got bored and annoyed and just walked away because your build does nothing but abuse the terrible state of healing, shields and mitigation that is currently the meta in Cyrodiil.

You have no credibility because you take abusive advantage of this meta so of course you want nothing changed. You're part of the problem, not the solution.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I hope that this is helpful for any readers trying to better understand this issue as well as how the game actually works. A ballgroup healer does not simply roll their face on the keyboard and mystically achieve CHIM, as is commonly portrayed, and it really weakens anyone's argument when they traffic in those sorts of uninformed exaggerations.

No, none of this is helpful because you have zero claim to non-bias on this issue. Just a couple of weeks ago we watched you get caught on your horse on your way to Blackboot and after getting hit you just stood there and healed and blocked through all of the damage that 5 or 6 veteran Cyrodiil players all glass cannons spec'd into damage, pen and crit could hit you with - everything they had - until they just got bored and annoyed and just walked away because your build does nothing but abuse the terrible state of healing, shields and mitigation that is currently the meta in Cyrodiil.

You have no credibility because you take abusive advantage of this meta so of course you want nothing changed. You're part of the problem, not the solution.

Lol to this, also funny because you could say the same thing about people fully speccing into crit are abusing the current state of the meta. As it stands we have nearly double the sources of crit damage and even less crit resistance than before. Still waiting on zos to add that crit resist mundus. Or bake the crit resist cp into a nonslottable bonus. Or maybe add more crit resist 2-4 piece bonuses onto clearly designed pvp gear sets.

Artisian0001 wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I hope that this is helpful for any readers trying to better understand this issue as well as how the game actually works. A ballgroup healer does not simply roll their face on the keyboard and mystically achieve CHIM, as is commonly portrayed, and it really weakens anyone's argument when they traffic in those sorts of uninformed exaggerations.

No, none of this is helpful because you have zero claim to non-bias on this issue. Just a couple of weeks ago we watched you get caught on your horse on your way to Blackboot and after getting hit you just stood there and healed and blocked through all of the damage that 5 or 6 veteran Cyrodiil players all glass cannons spec'd into damage, pen and crit could hit you with - everything they had - until they just got bored and annoyed and just walked away because your build does nothing but abuse the terrible state of healing, shields and mitigation that is currently the meta in Cyrodiil.

You have no credibility because you take abusive advantage of this meta so of course you want nothing changed. You're part of the problem, not the solution.

Lol to this, also funny because you could say the same thing about people fully speccing into crit are abusing the current state of the meta. As it stands we have nearly double the sources of crit damage and even less crit resistance than before. Still waiting on zos to add that crit resist mundus. Or bake the crit resist cp into a nonslottable bonus. Or maybe add more crit resist 2-4 piece bonuses onto clearly designed pvp gear sets.

What do you think would be a good value for a crit resist mundus?

Iriidius wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Djiku wrote: »

Just don't let the same HOTs and Shields stack. You should only be able to have one instance of each HOT and shield. Is that possible short term?

Honestly..this is how it should be. Why should one player be able to have 3 or more of the same heal and shield up at all times? And this is coming from a solo player. You have a vigor on you? Then that one vigor stays until the CD is done, same with shields. This is why ball groups are so unkillable is because they have 3+ vigors, 3+ regens, then 3+ shields, then the procs from the heal/buff sets

Again, more misinformed opinions are coming into this thread. You can't have more than one of the same shield effect on you. It’s important that people who actually understand and play the game are taken more seriously than those who don’t even grasp the basics. We don’t need people who lack the first clue about the game’s mechanics completely ruining Cyrodiil with misguided and misinformed healing nerfs.

Someone else in this thread gave a ton of opinions about how they thought the healing nerfs should be implemented, only for us to find out that they believed one cast of Echoing Vigor could hit 12 people at the same time. This demonstrates a total lack of game knowledge. It’s hard to take an opinion like that seriously when the person clearly doesn’t understand even the basic mechanics of the game.

I’ve been playing this game for years now, played all through some of the worst and best nerfs, metas and so forth when it comes to PvP. I can honestly say this is the worst that comped groups have been in PvP. Sure, maybe I shouldn’t have said shields can stack but the heals stacking is a huge issue at the moment and there needs to be a viable solution. Just last night there were two ball groups in Ash withstanding siege and 30-40 enemy players. Nothing even made a dent in their health bars and they only left the keep when they lost 1-2 players from their group. This is a problem. Comped groups shouldn’t be this unkillable force in the game. As I said in an earlier post, if they can’t figure out the cross heals solution then make sets that can counter these group viable again. Snake in the Stars was supposed to be a counter, it was dead on arrival. It’s kinda insane how the solo and PUG players have to suffer while comped groups are able to have free reign in Cyro 🤷🏼‍♂️

Even in your anecdotal example, a PUG group was able to successfully defend a keep against two ball groups simultaneously. If that’s possible, it suggests that ball groups aren’t inherently unstoppable. The fact that PUGs can still hold their own indicates that the system isn’t broken.

Snake in the Stars is an incredibly powerful counter to ball groups, but it has to be used alongside other tools. You can’t expect that simply applying it will instantly kill someone. Proc sets aren’t meant to be hard counters that immediately eliminate other players.

What exactly do you expect— that ZOS will nerf healing so much that a solo player or a PUG group could realistically compete against a coordinated ball group? Do you really think anyone would want to play a game like that?

It isnt real Victory if a ballgroup leaves keep loosing only or 2 player after killing the 40 defenders multiple times. Probably the ballgroups didnt even try to take the keep but just wanted to farm the players like they did before they got bored. Would you also call it a victory if 3 players keep attacking a 1vXer and getting killed until he leaves. It wasnt even said the 1 player was beaten by the defenders, he might also have been killed by the other ballgroup, got disconnect or lagspike or went afk.

You come up with the strawman argument that he expects to compete against a ballgroup and kill them solo or with a PUG group when he obviously only expects to kill them with 40 players+siege. But I doubt anyone except the coordinated ballgroup would want to not play the game if other playstiles could compete against them.

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just log on tonight and snipit your cmx what your average tick is. It can probably also show you that more than 6 of your group's vigors can be on you at once too.

My average tick from last night is 1.6k so 800 HPS.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Teeba_Shei
You can spin it any way you want but we all know being able to stack 8+ echoings/ radiating is a problem.

Most players don’t stack 8+ echoings in real play, and even when it happens, it doesn’t make a group invincible. PUGs, solo players, and smaller coordinated teams do find ways to counter stacked heals and kill these players.

Correct, it's not just the stacking of 12x separate sticky HoTs contributing to 30k per second healing and 16k+ shielding from non-ultimates that can be refreshed every gcd. It's also the group being at movement speed cap that also makes them functionally invincible. The counter-play to excessive healing and shielding, is excessive numerical damage aka making their healthbars drop to zero... but everything that can deliver that, is at the mercy of the group moving as a unit, the speed of mach seven so none of this excessive damage can do any damage.

Lets do a little fact checking, you claimed that having 12 Echoing Vigors active at once results in 30,000 healing per second. Let’s check the math. The tooltip on one Echoing Vigor shows around 20,000 total healing over 16 seconds, which works out to 1,250 healing per second. If you apply a 55% reduction from battle spirit, that drops to 562.5 healing per second per cast. Even if you stacked 12 of them, the total healing per second would be 562.5 times 12, which equals 6,750 HPS. That’s nowhere near 30,000. In fact, the claim is more than four times too high.

This clearly proves that the person making the claim is completely misinformed. How can anyone take an opinion this blatantly wrong about the game’s most basic mechanics seriously, especially on a change this huge? Spouting numbers that are off by more than four times isn’t just a mistake—it’s recklessly misleading and undermines any real discussion about the game.

I'm not going to be including the cyrodil passive that increases healing by 20% when near a keep in these values because of course there are other factors which would make the final calculations a bit less in game so this will offset that.

Echoing: 23610/16 = 1475 hps
Radiating: 25170= 2517 hps
total: 3992
cyro healing debuff: -50% = 1996
12x for members= 23952 hps

BUT WAIT I have crit modifiers:
At 60% increased crit healing from modifiers like lucent that 23952 value goes up to 1.6* 23,952= 38,323 hps if everything crits.

Using a 30% crit chance (which is what I had on the build editor). and using a weighted average formula:
(23952*0.70) + (38,323*0.30) = 28,264 AVERAGE hps from 2 skills so . . .yeah.

values from the build editor which currently doesn't let me save builds, but you can recreate it yourself. Sets I put on the healer were powerful assault and lucent echos. 3x swift snow treaders 2x earthgore. And ofc I included buffs you would get from a ball group like major courage from olo etc.

This conversation is going in circles but you do not ever have 12x of either of those HOTs on you at any time no matter how good the players involved are.

The targeting mechanics of Vigor prevent that from being possible. Most players in this thread do not even know what those mechanics are which is why it is difficult to have these sorts of conversations.

It is considered to be exceptional play by a healer to maintain 60% uptime per target across all 12 players of a raid. For Radiating Regen, a much shorter HOT with 1/2 the targets hit per cast, that value is 40%. All players run Vigor but DDs no longer run Radiating as their back-option, which makes it a healer-exclusive skill.

So a ballgroup comprised of players with S-Tier casting mechanics, has, being generous, 8 stacks of Vigor and 3-4 stacks of Radiating on them. That is, a) too many, particularly of Vigor, but also, b) not at all close to 24 stacks of HOTs like is commonly portrayed.

That’s crazy because when I played in a group my uptimes DURING a fight were way higher than that on both.

Either way I was just using the set condition he put out which was multiplying by 12

Maintaining Vigor coverage becomes exponentially more difficult as you add more players to a group size. A group with 12 players is functionally impossible to maintain 100% uptime across all players.

Because the skill does not have a "smart" system for choosing targets at full health or even a proximity-based mechanism for selecting its targets (nearest-proximity is how abilities such as Scribing shields behave, which comes with its own set of issues for uptime).

If you have 12 players and loosely stack them and cast Vigor twice the Vigor will go the exact same 6 players both times, leaving the other 6 completely without the HOT. This situation will persist no matter how many times that you cast Vigor. You can spam it an infinite number of times but you will never, ever hit the other 6 targets.

Cyrodiil, and all locations in the game, are divided into invisible grid chunks for the purposes of the engine and this bears heavily upon how abilities such as heals select their targets. But, of course, the layperson in this thread thinks it's as simple as casting the skill twice and viola you maintain perfect coverage over an entire raid. I wish that it were that easy.

6 players is actually the ideal group size for maximizing Vigor uptime because it only takes one cast every 16 seconds to cover the entire group. If you compared the log results for a sweaty 6-man and a sweaty 12-man and both groups used Vigor, the 6-player group would have FAR better per player uptime (it would be 100%) vs. the 12-player group. A 12-player raid is fighting against game mechanics when it comes to HOTs whereas 6 players is embracing it.

I hope that this is helpful for any readers trying to better understand this issue as well as how the game actually works. A ballgroup healer does not simply roll their face on the keyboard and mystically achieve CHIM, as is commonly portrayed, and it really weakens anyone's argument when they traffic in those sorts of uninformed exaggerations.

I think that the people who know my game account name would agree I'm a pretty decent healer, I 100% endorse the statement that 60% per-target uptime on Vigor is exceptional.

People don't realize that you can even miss yourself with your own Echoing Vigor if someone with a lower relative health percentage "steals" the targeting. If you don't intentionally position yourself to miss the 6 targets you hit with the first cast, then just like you said, all casting it again will do is refresh it on the people you got the first time (including the possibility of missing yourself again...). Vigor's targeting is actually pants-on-head insane.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just log on tonight and snipit your cmx what your average tick is. It can probably also show you that more than 6 of your group's vigors can be on you at once too.

My average tick from last night is 1.6k so 800 HPS.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Teeba_Shei
You can spin it any way you want but we all know being able to stack 8+ echoings/ radiating is a problem.

Most players don’t stack 8+ echoings in real play, and even when it happens, it doesn’t make a group invincible. PUGs, solo players, and smaller coordinated teams do find ways to counter stacked heals and kill these players.

Correct, it's not just the stacking of 12x separate sticky HoTs contributing to 30k per second healing and 16k+ shielding from non-ultimates that can be refreshed every gcd. It's also the group being at movement speed cap that also makes them functionally invincible. The counter-play to excessive healing and shielding, is excessive numerical damage aka making their healthbars drop to zero... but everything that can deliver that, is at the mercy of the group moving as a unit, the speed of mach seven so none of this excessive damage can do any damage.

Lets do a little fact checking, you claimed that having 12 Echoing Vigors active at once results in 30,000 healing per second. Let’s check the math. The tooltip on one Echoing Vigor shows around 20,000 total healing over 16 seconds, which works out to 1,250 healing per second. If you apply a 55% reduction from battle spirit, that drops to 562.5 healing per second per cast. Even if you stacked 12 of them, the total healing per second would be 562.5 times 12, which equals 6,750 HPS. That’s nowhere near 30,000. In fact, the claim is more than four times too high.

This clearly proves that the person making the claim is completely misinformed. How can anyone take an opinion this blatantly wrong about the game’s most basic mechanics seriously, especially on a change this huge? Spouting numbers that are off by more than four times isn’t just a mistake—it’s recklessly misleading and undermines any real discussion about the game.

I'm not going to be including the cyrodil passive that increases healing by 20% when near a keep in these values because of course there are other factors which would make the final calculations a bit less in game so this will offset that.

Echoing: 23610/16 = 1475 hps
Radiating: 25170= 2517 hps
total: 3992
cyro healing debuff: -50% = 1996
12x for members= 23952 hps

BUT WAIT I have crit modifiers:
At 60% increased crit healing from modifiers like lucent that 23952 value goes up to 1.6* 23,952= 38,323 hps if everything crits.

Using a 30% crit chance (which is what I had on the build editor). and using a weighted average formula:
(23952*0.70) + (38,323*0.30) = 28,264 AVERAGE hps from 2 skills so . . .yeah.

values from the build editor which currently doesn't let me save builds, but you can recreate it yourself. Sets I put on the healer were powerful assault and lucent echos. 3x swift snow treaders 2x earthgore. And ofc I included buffs you would get from a ball group like major courage from olo etc.

This conversation is going in circles but you do not ever have 12x of either of those HOTs on you at any time no matter how good the players involved are.

The targeting mechanics of Vigor prevent that from being possible. Most players in this thread do not even know what those mechanics are which is why it is difficult to have these sorts of conversations.

It is considered to be exceptional play by a healer to maintain 60% uptime per target across all 12 players of a raid. For Radiating Regen, a much shorter HOT with 1/2 the targets hit per cast, that value is 40%. All players run Vigor but DDs no longer run Radiating as their back-option, which makes it a healer-exclusive skill.

So a ballgroup comprised of players with S-Tier casting mechanics, has, being generous, 8 stacks of Vigor and 3-4 stacks of Radiating on them. That is, a) too many, particularly of Vigor, but also, b) not at all close to 24 stacks of HOTs like is commonly portrayed.

That’s crazy because when I played in a group my uptimes DURING a fight were way higher than that on both.

Either way I was just using the set condition he put out which was multiplying by 12

Maintaining Vigor coverage becomes exponentially more difficult as you add more players to a group size. A group with 12 players is functionally impossible to maintain 100% uptime across all players.

Because the skill does not have a "smart" system for choosing targets at full health or even a proximity-based mechanism for selecting its targets (nearest-proximity is how abilities such as Scribing shields behave, which comes with its own set of issues for uptime).

If you have 12 players and loosely stack them and cast Vigor twice the Vigor will go the exact same 6 players both times, leaving the other 6 completely without the HOT. This situation will persist no matter how many times that you cast Vigor. You can spam it an infinite number of times but you will never, ever hit the other 6 targets.

Cyrodiil, and all locations in the game, are divided into invisible grid chunks for the purposes of the engine and this bears heavily upon how abilities such as heals select their targets. But, of course, the layperson in this thread thinks it's as simple as casting the skill twice and viola you maintain perfect coverage over an entire raid. I wish that it were that easy.

6 players is actually the ideal group size for maximizing Vigor uptime because it only takes one cast every 16 seconds to cover the entire group. If you compared the log results for a sweaty 6-man and a sweaty 12-man and both groups used Vigor, the 6-player group would have FAR better per player uptime (it would be 100%) vs. the 12-player group. A 12-player raid is fighting against game mechanics when it comes to HOTs whereas 6 players is embracing it.

I hope that this is helpful for any readers trying to better understand this issue as well as how the game actually works. A ballgroup healer does not simply roll their face on the keyboard and mystically achieve CHIM, as is commonly portrayed, and it really weakens anyone's argument when they traffic in those sorts of uninformed exaggerations.

I think that the people who know my game account name would agree I'm a pretty decent healer, I 100% endorse the statement that 60% per-target uptime on Vigor is exceptional.

People don't realize that you can even miss yourself with your own Echoing Vigor if someone with a lower relative health percentage "steals" the targeting. If you don't intentionally position yourself to miss the 6 targets you hit with the first cast, then just like you said, all casting it again will do is refresh it on the people you got the first time (including the possibility of missing yourself again...). Vigor's targeting is actually pants-on-head insane.

Again why not push zos to make echo a 12 man oriented skill or even a 10 man oriented skill. QoL and less reliance on spam inevitably would be better for the server anyways.

Then just have resolving go back to a 4 man oriented skill that is much tigher radius.

Iriidius wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Djiku wrote: »

Just don't let the same HOTs and Shields stack. You should only be able to have one instance of each HOT and shield. Is that possible short term?

Honestly..this is how it should be. Why should one player be able to have 3 or more of the same heal and shield up at all times? And this is coming from a solo player. You have a vigor on you? Then that one vigor stays until the CD is done, same with shields. This is why ball groups are so unkillable is because they have 3+ vigors, 3+ regens, then 3+ shields, then the procs from the heal/buff sets

Again, more misinformed opinions are coming into this thread. You can't have more than one of the same shield effect on you. It’s important that people who actually understand and play the game are taken more seriously than those who don’t even grasp the basics. We don’t need people who lack the first clue about the game’s mechanics completely ruining Cyrodiil with misguided and misinformed healing nerfs.

Someone else in this thread gave a ton of opinions about how they thought the healing nerfs should be implemented, only for us to find out that they believed one cast of Echoing Vigor could hit 12 people at the same time. This demonstrates a total lack of game knowledge. It’s hard to take an opinion like that seriously when the person clearly doesn’t understand even the basic mechanics of the game.

I’ve been playing this game for years now, played all through some of the worst and best nerfs, metas and so forth when it comes to PvP. I can honestly say this is the worst that comped groups have been in PvP. Sure, maybe I shouldn’t have said shields can stack but the heals stacking is a huge issue at the moment and there needs to be a viable solution. Just last night there were two ball groups in Ash withstanding siege and 30-40 enemy players. Nothing even made a dent in their health bars and they only left the keep when they lost 1-2 players from their group. This is a problem. Comped groups shouldn’t be this unkillable force in the game. As I said in an earlier post, if they can’t figure out the cross heals solution then make sets that can counter these group viable again. Snake in the Stars was supposed to be a counter, it was dead on arrival. It’s kinda insane how the solo and PUG players have to suffer while comped groups are able to have free reign in Cyro 🤷🏼‍♂️

Even in your anecdotal example, a PUG group was able to successfully defend a keep against two ball groups simultaneously. If that’s possible, it suggests that ball groups aren’t inherently unstoppable. The fact that PUGs can still hold their own indicates that the system isn’t broken.

Snake in the Stars is an incredibly powerful counter to ball groups, but it has to be used alongside other tools. You can’t expect that simply applying it will instantly kill someone. Proc sets aren’t meant to be hard counters that immediately eliminate other players.

What exactly do you expect— that ZOS will nerf healing so much that a solo player or a PUG group could realistically compete against a coordinated ball group? Do you really think anyone would want to play a game like that?

It isnt real Victory if a ballgroup leaves keep loosing only or 2 player after killing the 40 defenders multiple times. Probably the ballgroups didnt even try to take the keep but just wanted to farm the players like they did before they got bored. Would you also call it a victory if 3 players keep attacking a 1vXer and getting killed until he leaves. It wasnt even said the 1 player was beaten by the defenders, he might also have been killed by the other ballgroup, got disconnect or lagspike or went afk.

You come up with the strawman argument that he expects to compete against a ballgroup and kill them solo or with a PUG group when he obviously only expects to kill them with 40 players+siege. But I doubt anyone except the coordinated ballgroup would want to not play the game if other playstiles could compete against them.