@Teeba_Shei
You can spin it any way you want but we all know being able to stack 8+ echoings/ radiating is a problem.

Should a group of 12 coordinated players be strong ? Yes.
Should they be as strong as they are now ? Hell no.

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Djiku wrote: »

Just don't let the same HOTs and Shields stack. You should only be able to have one instance of each HOT and shield. Is that possible short term?

Honestly..this is how it should be. Why should one player be able to have 3 or more of the same heal and shield up at all times? And this is coming from a solo player. You have a vigor on you? Then that one vigor stays until the CD is done, same with shields. This is why ball groups are so unkillable is because they have 3+ vigors, 3+ regens, then 3+ shields, then the procs from the heal/buff sets

Again, more misinformed opinions are coming into this thread. You can't have more than one of the same shield effect on you. It’s important that people who actually understand and play the game are taken more seriously than those who don’t even grasp the basics. We don’t need people who lack the first clue about the game’s mechanics completely ruining Cyrodiil with misguided and misinformed healing nerfs.

Someone else in this thread gave a ton of opinions about how they thought the healing nerfs should be implemented, only for us to find out that they believed one cast of Echoing Vigor could hit 12 people at the same time. This demonstrates a total lack of game knowledge. It’s hard to take an opinion like that seriously when the person clearly doesn’t understand even the basic mechanics of the game.

I’ve been playing this game for years now, played all through some of the worst and best nerfs, metas and so forth when it comes to PvP. I can honestly say this is the worst that comped groups have been in PvP. Sure, maybe I shouldn’t have said shields can stack but the heals stacking is a huge issue at the moment and there needs to be a viable solution. Just last night there were two ball groups in Ash withstanding siege and 30-40 enemy players. Nothing even made a dent in their health bars and they only left the keep when they lost 1-2 players from their group. This is a problem. Comped groups shouldn’t be this unkillable force in the game. As I said in an earlier post, if they can’t figure out the cross heals solution then make sets that can counter these group viable again. Snake in the Stars was supposed to be a counter, it was dead on arrival. It’s kinda insane how the solo and PUG players have to suffer while comped groups are able to have free reign in Cyro 🤷🏼‍♂️

Even in your anecdotal example, a PUG group was able to successfully defend a keep against two ball groups simultaneously. If that’s possible, it suggests that ball groups aren’t inherently unstoppable. The fact that PUGs can still hold their own indicates that the system isn’t broken.

Snake in the Stars is an incredibly powerful counter to ball groups, but it has to be used alongside other tools. You can’t expect that simply applying it will instantly kill someone. Proc sets aren’t meant to be hard counters that immediately eliminate other players.

What exactly do you expect— that ZOS will nerf healing so much that a solo player or a PUG group could realistically compete against a coordinated ball group? Do you really think anyone would want to play a game like that?

Eh, that’s just one rare occurrence where the BG simply left the keep once they lost a group member, 9/10 times they hold the keep hostage as others here have stated. I’ll be completely honest and say I don’t know the exact solution seeing as this has been a ongoing topic for how long now with the majority asking for a viable solution to these groups and Zos doesn’t seem to know how to respond. What would your solution be? Just let these groups continue on as they currently do while solo players pay the price? Again, it’s a pretty big problem when you have multiple players throwing multiple siege at a ball group and it does nothing. Isn’t that the whole point of counter siege? I’m not sitting here saying “I want to and expect myself and other solos to insta wipe a ball group” but there should be a viable counter to them and at this moment, there isn’t one

xFocused wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Djiku wrote: »

Just don't let the same HOTs and Shields stack. You should only be able to have one instance of each HOT and shield. Is that possible short term?

Honestly..this is how it should be. Why should one player be able to have 3 or more of the same heal and shield up at all times? And this is coming from a solo player. You have a vigor on you? Then that one vigor stays until the CD is done, same with shields. This is why ball groups are so unkillable is because they have 3+ vigors, 3+ regens, then 3+ shields, then the procs from the heal/buff sets

Again, more misinformed opinions are coming into this thread. You can't have more than one of the same shield effect on you. It’s important that people who actually understand and play the game are taken more seriously than those who don’t even grasp the basics. We don’t need people who lack the first clue about the game’s mechanics completely ruining Cyrodiil with misguided and misinformed healing nerfs.

Someone else in this thread gave a ton of opinions about how they thought the healing nerfs should be implemented, only for us to find out that they believed one cast of Echoing Vigor could hit 12 people at the same time. This demonstrates a total lack of game knowledge. It’s hard to take an opinion like that seriously when the person clearly doesn’t understand even the basic mechanics of the game.

I’ve been playing this game for years now, played all through some of the worst and best nerfs, metas and so forth when it comes to PvP. I can honestly say this is the worst that comped groups have been in PvP. Sure, maybe I shouldn’t have said shields can stack but the heals stacking is a huge issue at the moment and there needs to be a viable solution. Just last night there were two ball groups in Ash withstanding siege and 30-40 enemy players. Nothing even made a dent in their health bars and they only left the keep when they lost 1-2 players from their group. This is a problem. Comped groups shouldn’t be this unkillable force in the game. As I said in an earlier post, if they can’t figure out the cross heals solution then make sets that can counter these group viable again. Snake in the Stars was supposed to be a counter, it was dead on arrival. It’s kinda insane how the solo and PUG players have to suffer while comped groups are able to have free reign in Cyro 🤷🏼‍♂️

Even in your anecdotal example, a PUG group was able to successfully defend a keep against two ball groups simultaneously. If that’s possible, it suggests that ball groups aren’t inherently unstoppable. The fact that PUGs can still hold their own indicates that the system isn’t broken.

Snake in the Stars is an incredibly powerful counter to ball groups, but it has to be used alongside other tools. You can’t expect that simply applying it will instantly kill someone. Proc sets aren’t meant to be hard counters that immediately eliminate other players.

What exactly do you expect— that ZOS will nerf healing so much that a solo player or a PUG group could realistically compete against a coordinated ball group? Do you really think anyone would want to play a game like that?

this has been a ongoing topic for how long now with the majority asking for a viable solution to these groups and Zos doesn’t seem to know how to respond. What would your solution be?

You don't speak for the majority. You dont even speak for what is probably less than 1% of the playerbase posting on the forums.

You only speak for you.

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

.

Djiku wrote: »

Just don't let the same HOTs and Shields stack. You should only be able to have one instance of each HOT and shield. Is that possible short term?

xFocused wrote: »

Djiku wrote: »

Just don't let the same HOTs and Shields stack. You should only be able to have one instance of each HOT and shield. Is that possible short term?

Honestly..this is how it should be. Why should one player be able to have 3 or more of the same heal and shield up at all times? And this is coming from a solo player. You have a vigor on you? Then that one vigor stays until the CD is done, same with shields. This is why ball groups are so unkillable is because they have 3+ vigors, 3+ regens, then 3+ shields, then the procs from the heal/buff sets

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

Djiku wrote: »

Just don't let the same HOTs and Shields stack. You should only be able to have one instance of each HOT and shield. Is that possible short term?

Honestly..this is how it should be. Why should one player be able to have 3 or more of the same heal and shield up at all times? And this is coming from a solo player. You have a vigor on you? Then that one vigor stays until the CD is done, same with shields. This is why ball groups are so unkillable is because they have 3+ vigors, 3+ regens, then 3+ shields, then the procs from the heal/buff sets

Again, more misinformed opinions are coming into this thread. You can't have more than one of the same shield effect on you. It’s important that people who actually understand and play the game are taken more seriously than those who don’t even grasp the basics. We don’t need people who lack the first clue about the game’s mechanics completely ruining Cyrodiil with misguided and misinformed healing nerfs.

We are having people who don't know how the game works and don't understand how to play it well handing out feedback about how healing should be nerfed 33%-90% (a wild and wide range).

What is concerning is that this is being treated as equal to other feedback because the people reviewing it do not play the game.

The fact that this change has made it to the PTS speaks volumes about the lack of gameplay experience of the people making these decisions.

EDIT:

There is a logical way to address specific things in the game that we feel are too strong compared to others.

If we feel that HoTs are too strong we need to take a look at how much they individually heal, and whether their counters (DoT damage, healing debuffs, Snake in The Stars) are strong enough.

A blanket nerf to all healing (whether applied by yourself or others) is reckless game design.

Reckless game design is responsible for the current state of the game compared to 5 years ago. The answer isn't more reckless game design. It's careful and sensible changes to the game that align with the game's overall design philosophy.

Careful with that tone friend, it might give others the impression that your only perspective is that of a ball group player that never plays solo or in groups smaller than 4.

Carry on.

fizzybeef wrote: »

Even 33% reduction is to much. And 5 hots aint much either, i can have 3 by myself. Accidently get hit by 2 random hots and have 50% heal reduction is crazy.

Youre encouraging elitism by immortal 1vx kiters so they have a easier time against randoms healing each other, by trying to nerf ball groups. In the end it will hurt the casual players more then the bg´s. Same as when dark con , rush and plague was released.

Initially, it was "but I can easily have 2 HOTs on myself, and get tagged with a 3rd" and now it's "I can easily have 3 on myself and get tagged with 2 more". Someone posted they could easily just have 5 on their bar alone so do we say "I can easily have 5 on myself and get tagged with 3 more"?

My ideal solution would be limiting HOTs to no stacking at all; the HOT just gets overwritten if it's cast again but at some point, something has to be worth a try. While I agree that the solutions ZoS are contemplating right now are certainly not perfect, I'd be willing to give it a try over just doing nothing and living with that status-quo, especially if this is an iterative process and ZoS is willing to revert or continue revising.

People have been asking for heal stacking to be addressed for a long time but it seems like the minute they try, people get all twisted about it because it's not the way THEY wanted it addressed and if ZoS isn't going to do it the way these players wanted, they'd rather nothing at all.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Teeba_Shei
You can spin it any way you want but we all know being able to stack 8+ echoings/ radiating is a problem.

Most players don’t stack 8+ echoings in real play, and even when it happens, it doesn’t make a group invincible. PUGs, solo players, and smaller coordinated teams do find ways to counter stacked heals and kill these players.

Correct, it's not just the stacking of 12x separate sticky HoTs contributing to 30k per second healing and 16k+ shielding from non-ultimates that can be refreshed every gcd. It's also the group being at movement speed cap that also makes them functionally invincible. The counter-play to excessive healing and shielding, is excessive numerical damage aka making their healthbars drop to zero... but everything that can deliver that, is at the mercy of the group moving as a unit, the speed of mach seven so none of this excessive damage can do any damage.

Lets do a little fact checking, you claimed that having 12 Echoing Vigors active at once results in 30,000 healing per second. Let’s check the math. The tooltip on one Echoing Vigor shows around 20,000 total healing over 16 seconds, which works out to 1,250 healing per second. If you apply a 55% reduction from battle spirit, that drops to 562.5 healing per second per cast. Even if you stacked 12 of them, the total healing per second would be 562.5 times 12, which equals 6,750 HPS. That’s nowhere near 30,000. In fact, the claim is more than four times too high.

This clearly proves that the person making the claim is completely misinformed. How can anyone take an opinion this blatantly wrong about the game’s most basic mechanics seriously, especially on a change this huge? Spouting numbers that are off by more than four times isn’t just a mistake—it’s recklessly misleading and undermines any real discussion about the game.

As a 1vXer I am already capable of doing successful 1v4s against average pugs and make 8-10 players chase after me in a keep. Sure, I may not kill them, but that’s only because I have to build for both damage and defense. I can’t burst down a big group without using either a full damage build or a niche tanky bomb build. Things change noticeably when you run with a duo. Now those 8-10 people have to spread their attention on 2 players, and this creates so much survivability on its own without involving any cross healing. Every time I run a duo group, I can always survive significantly longer than if I was by myself. Your kill potential also doubles as well with the 2nd man.

If you simply scale that up to a 3 or even a 4 man group, then you can actually take on that 8-10 man pug group and consistently win. This is btw barely involving any cross healing. When I do 4 man group PvP with my guild, we can always take on 10-15 people in our solo builds. Yep, literally solo builds with Resolving Vigor and self heals lol. What happens when you actually become serious and optimize for group though? Things like HoT stacking, buff stacking, set stacking, increase your power ten fold. The most effective groups literally run around with 5k+ crit resistance, 30k+ resistances, and super high damage from all the set buffs and major/minor buffs that could never be obtained by themselves, at least not all of them. It’s almost unfair to be on the receiving end of these players. You’re not just fighting 1 player with maxed out stats. You’re fighting multiple of them lol.

I find it funny how ball group players are trying so hard to convince people how ball groups aren’t impossible to kill and thus not requiring any nerfs to their playstyle. That notion is very misleading and doesn’t paint the full picture. Sure, it isn’t impossible to kill a ball group, but it takes a tremendous amount of manpower and time to fully wipe one, and we see this first hand every night in GH. Every large keep fight where a ball group shows up, lag instantly gets worse first, then the defending pugs start being dumpstered until this ball group either makes a mistake and gets punished by someone, or gets overwhelmed by the entire defending faction. Those are 2 rare occasions that require either overwhelming manpower or sheer luck, timing, and their own mistakes. By the time this ball group actually dies, the defending pug groups have already been wiped several times over. This is also not accounting for that one ball group player who was told to dip early in stealth and place a camp somewhere so their dead teammates can rez for another round. I do this all the time in my 4 man group, so it wouldn’t surprise me if a ball group does the same thing lol.

Possible to kill? Yes. Easy to pull off? No, not by a long shot.

heaven13 wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

The answer is really quite simple. I could fix this in one post. Exercise yo demons with the flip of a switch.

Ready?

Enforce group roles in PvP the way you do for PvE, which means setting a standard for group format. Test. Build. Test. Build. Test. Keep building from there and so on, so forth. See the problem is it doesn't really matter what changes they make when I can have as many healer and DPS as I want. It's like in PvE, we don't have something crazy like 20-man DPS on a 4-man dungeon raid. Trials don't have 30 DPS on a 12-man run.

So PvP needs some group standards set to establish a foundation, which in time you can run simple projections and tests to determine power of different things. Until this is done, the problems shall remain and the clowns shall continue to adapt to any change meant to correct the problems/behavior that exists today in Cyrodiil PvP.

Perhaps you could start by explaining how roles are enforced in PvE now?

The answer: The role format is NOT enforced to enter the content. You can have 3 dps and a tank in a dungeon. One of those dps can also have some class heals to hybrid heal if they want, but their role is still a DPS in the group.

The only thing limiting in trials and dungeons is the closed instance aspect of it all. Trials and dungeons have a max number of players that can go in. So of course you don't have 30 people in a trial; it's literally not possible. But you can have 12 dps in a trial, if you choose. Cyro is open world so this solution doesn't work there.

So how exactly would you go about enforcing this?

Hi, I thought about it and edited the post probably just after you copied.

Yeah, I'm aware of the fake roles issue and the fact they don't really enforce anything. I think there are ways to do it, based on what weapons you're using if nothing else. It would require them to weigh some things; it would require them to make decisions based on what a PvP group should look like. Only allow so many healers, maybe create some new roles for groups even? Stuff like that. Try to organize the chaos rather than consolidate the power around a few sets for everyone in the group.

Here's a short example. Once upon a time, I had this build and it used 2x 5-piece sets, stacked. So, when using 1 bar, u got full power right? But something I learned is how to make parallel builds. In other words, 1x 5-piece bonus on 1x bar, the second 5-piece bonus is on the 2nd bar. They work at different times because that much consolidated power was never necessary. And that's the problem with grouping in ESO, all the power is pooled and consolidated instead of being organized.

But for now, it seems like they just let people bring whatever and setup the groups however, with no thought to power. Then they churn out sets that just fuel this loophole further. Like constantly feeding a black hole in space. It's just going to keep growing, feeding it more and/or getting mad at it won't stop it from continuing to expand. Just like the gap between ball groups and the average player... has expanded exponentially. And I don't think the devs really understand that fixing this problem is going to start by setting boundaries. If there are no boundaries then they can't set any meaningful limits on what larger groups can do. Like some ball groupers on here said, ZOS put this out here for us to use so don't get mad at us. And in a way that's true.

hoangdz wrote: »

As a 1vXer I am already capable of doing successful 1v4s against average pugs and make 8-10 players chase after me in a keep. Sure i may not kill them, but that’s only because I have to build for both damage and tankiness. I can’t reliably burst down a big group unless I’m on a full damage build. Things change when you run a duo group. Now those 8-10 people have to spread their attention on 2 players, and this creates so much survivability on its own without needing any cross healing involved. Every time I run a duo group, I can always survive much longer than if I was soloing. Your kill potential also doubles as well with the 2nd man.

If you scale that up to a 3 or even a 4 man group, then you can actually take on that 8-10 man pug group and consistently win. This is btw not accounting for any cross healing. When I do 4 man group PvP with my guild, we can always take on 10-15 people on our solo builds. Yep, literally solo builds with Resolving Vigor and self heals lol. What happens when you actually become serious and optimize for group though? HoT stacking, buff stacking, set stacking, ect. increase your power ten fold. The most effective groups literally run around with 5k+ crit resistance, 30k+ resistances, and super high damage from all the damage buffs they get. It’s almost unfair to be on the receiving end of these players. You’re not just fighting 1 player with maxed out stats. You’re fighting multiple of them lol.

I find it funny how ball group players are trying so hard to convince people how ball groups aren’t impossible to kill and thus not requiring any nerfs to their playstyle. That notion is very misleading and doesn’t paint the full picture. Sure, it isn’t impossible to kill a ball group, but it takes a tremendous amount of manpower and time to fully wipe one, and we see this first hand every night in GH. Every large keep fight where a ball group shows up, lag instantly gets worse first, then the defending pugs start being dumpstered until this ball group either makes a mistake and gets punished by someone, or gets overwhelmed by the entire defending faction. Those are 2 rare occasions that require either overwhelming man power or sheer luck, timing, and their own mistakes. Possible? Yes. Easy to pull off? No, not by a long shot.

I agree it is not a walk in the park to kill a good ball group. They are stronger than they should be right now, and I do think some kind of nerf is needed.

That said, I think a big part of the “unkillable” feeling comes from the average Cyrodiil playerbase not understanding how to actually disrupt them, and the only people who consistently do understand it are ball group players themselves.

Like, 90% of the front lining population is running solo or 1vX style builds while “surfing the faction”. The rest are bombers or tanks. Even when people are in full 12 man groups, or have a whole faction stacked on top, they are still often built like they are trying to fight outnumbered. Obviously if you build like that, you are never going to dent a real ball group. You are basically trying to front line a zerg with a build meant for outnumbered duels, and it just does not work.

From what I have seen, with a little bit of effort, a 3 to 5 man squad can heavily disrupt, and even kill, an enemy 12 man ball group when that ball group is getting outnumbered, but only if the small squad builds specifically for front line zerg play and disruption. Most players just do not do that, so the ball group feels immortal.

So yes, ball groups are overtuned, but a lot of the “impossible to kill” narrative is playerbase ignorance and bad frontline builds, not that ball groups have zero counterplay.

Vulkunne wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

The answer is really quite simple. I could fix this in one post. Exercise yo demons with the flip of a switch.

Ready?

Enforce group roles in PvP the way you do for PvE, which means setting a standard for group format. Test. Build. Test. Build. Test. Keep building from there and so on, so forth. See the problem is it doesn't really matter what changes they make when I can have as many healer and DPS as I want. It's like in PvE, we don't have something crazy like 20-man DPS on a 4-man dungeon raid. Trials don't have 30 DPS on a 12-man run.

So PvP needs some group standards set to establish a foundation, which in time you can run simple projections and tests to determine power of different things. Until this is done, the problems shall remain and the clowns shall continue to adapt to any change meant to correct the problems/behavior that exists today in Cyrodiil PvP.

Perhaps you could start by explaining how roles are enforced in PvE now?

The answer: The role format is NOT enforced to enter the content. You can have 3 dps and a tank in a dungeon. One of those dps can also have some class heals to hybrid heal if they want, but their role is still a DPS in the group.

The only thing limiting in trials and dungeons is the closed instance aspect of it all. Trials and dungeons have a max number of players that can go in. So of course you don't have 30 people in a trial; it's literally not possible. But you can have 12 dps in a trial, if you choose. Cyro is open world so this solution doesn't work there.

So how exactly would you go about enforcing this?

Hi, I thought about it and edited the post probably just after you copied.

Yeah, I'm aware of the fake roles issue and the fact they don't really enforce anything. I think there are ways to do it, based on what weapons you're using if nothing else. It would require them to weigh some things; it would require them to make decisions based on what a PvP group should look like. Only allow so many healers, maybe create some new roles for groups even? Stuff like that. Try to organize the chaos rather than consolidate the power around a few sets for everyone in the group.

Here's a short example. Once upon a time, I had this build and it used 2x 5-piece sets, stacked. So, when using 1 bar, u got full power right? But something I learned is how to make parallel builds. In other words, 1x 5-piece bonus on 1x bar, the second 5-piece bonus is on the 2nd bar. They work at different times because that much consolidated power was never necessary. And that's the problem with grouping in ESO, all the power is pooled and consolidated instead of being organized.

But for now, it seems like they just let people bring whatever and setup the groups however, with no thought to power. Then they churn out sets that just fuel this loophole further. Like constantly feeding a black hole in space. It's just going to grow it won't stop. And I don't think the devs really understand that fixing this problem is going to start by setting boundaries. If there are no boundaries then they can't set any meaningful limits on what larger groups can do. Like some ball groupers on here said, ZOS put this out here for us to use so don't get mad at us. And in a way that's true.

If you want to throw around some ideas of roles. Instead of a forced que as role type system you are probably better off designing the game to encourage the behavior you want. Right now in pvp there are no real reasons for tanks other than trolling. We are too far along now but you could design things in a way like more tank specific skills do aoe CC instead of every other dps skill doing aoe CC. Or have more tank mechanics like taunting work for pvp as core mechanics and not one off item sets people just deconstruct. For healers youd do the same thing where we have purging, but only healer specific choices in builds get you the more widespread group hots like echo.

Subclassing and play your way makes this difficult as we see people can easily throw on 3 damage lines and then use the out of class fillers for heals and utility. So you'd have to make the out of class skills like this far less appealing.

IMO having "counters" to ballgroups like especially plaguebreak tend to be terrible in the fact that it undermines the purpose of a "purge roll" in a group. Where before you would actually rely on purge much like solo players rely on dodge roll or block. If we released a set where block instantly kills you if debuffed, most solo players would probably move away from blocking and go a more reliable route like dodge rolling or stacking hots to facetank.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Teeba_Shei
You can spin it any way you want but we all know being able to stack 8+ echoings/ radiating is a problem.

Most players don’t stack 8+ echoings in real play, and even when it happens, it doesn’t make a group invincible. PUGs, solo players, and smaller coordinated teams do find ways to counter stacked heals and kill these players.

Correct, it's not just the stacking of 12x separate sticky HoTs contributing to 30k per second healing and 16k+ shielding from non-ultimates that can be refreshed every gcd. It's also the group being at movement speed cap that also makes them functionally invincible. The counter-play to excessive healing and shielding, is excessive numerical damage aka making their healthbars drop to zero... but everything that can deliver that, is at the mercy of the group moving as a unit, the speed of mach seven so none of this excessive damage can do any damage.

Lets do a little fact checking, you claimed that having 12 Echoing Vigors active at once results in 30,000 healing per second. Let’s check the math. The tooltip on one Echoing Vigor shows around 20,000 total healing over 16 seconds, which works out to 1,250 healing per second. If you apply a 55% reduction from battle spirit, that drops to 562.5 healing per second per cast. Even if you stacked 12 of them, the total healing per second would be 562.5 times 12, which equals 6,750 HPS. That’s nowhere near 30,000. In fact, the claim is more than four times too high.

This clearly proves that the person making the claim is completely misinformed. How can anyone take an opinion this blatantly wrong about the game’s most basic mechanics seriously, especially on a change this huge? Spouting numbers that are off by more than four times isn’t just a mistake—it’s recklessly misleading and undermines any real discussion about the game.

Bad faith argument, there's already a detailed post explaining the 30k hps an average ballgroup gets, im not going repeating here if you already glossed over it. It's not "just echoing vigor" and it's not just healing either. You can do run defense campaign, and i can go easily gather numerous recordings of me just following a ballgroup completely solo and becoming functionally invulnerable to all forms of damage as long as I have my own snare removal and speed buff to keep up with how lightning fast they are.

How about you prove it with math? I showed my work and you are calling that bad faith. You are not invulnerable.

Radiate77 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

AD42 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

AD42 wrote: »

@ZOS_Icy @ZOS_Bill @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Hadeostry @ZOS_KaiSchober

Here's an example of 5 abilities. They don't require DLC, just the base game. I can reduce my healing and get the strongest healing reduction in the game. 100% chance, for 10 seconds on multiple targets (-50% or 33%). With a low-level character, I can endlessly ruin the game for my allies.
How do you plan to stop this?

By banning you for harassing people?
Seems easy enough to me.

It will be quite easy to tell when someone is doing this on purpose.

This is a game mechanic and you can't get banned for it.

Says who? If I catch you following me around tagging me with baby heals, I’m going to ask you to stop and if you don’t you’ll be reported for griefing.

Not a hard concept. You can grief players within the rules of the game, just like how you can get banned for t-bagging, except I’d imagine something like this would be taken a bit more serious.

How in the world are you ever going to enforce this at something like a keep battle?

Sure, if someone is following you around on the other side of the map it is obvious what their intent is but if you are defending an Emperor keep where tons of players converge naturally you are never going to be able to make this accusation.

Most casual players DO NOT read patch notes. They will have NO IDEA that this is a thing.

It boggles the mind that we are still even debating this atrocious idea.

Very easily, the keys here are…

“following me around”
“ask you to stop and if you don’t”

If someone will not stop following you around after you asked them to stop, that is harrassment with or without the HoTs, and easy enough to enforce.

If you’re getting tagged by 3 Sticky HoTs, (leaving room for 2 of your own) at a keep, you should be fine with a 50% debuff.

I’ve gone and bolded the quoted parts in the original post, thank you.

If the solution to a problem leads you to having to report people in pvp for healing you then the solution is garbage.

I really feel like people should follow the whole thread before jumping in at the last page of it.

Reading the whole thread, you would see that my first suggestion was a distinction between heals applied to you externally, and heals you applied.

Then you would have also seen that I am opposed to the 3 HoT restriction.

It is okay to adjust your opinion on a change that has been adjusted. We do not need to entrench ourselves in bad faith arguments.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

AD42 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

AD42 wrote: »

@ZOS_Icy @ZOS_Bill @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Hadeostry @ZOS_KaiSchober

Here's an example of 5 abilities. They don't require DLC, just the base game. I can reduce my healing and get the strongest healing reduction in the game. 100% chance, for 10 seconds on multiple targets (-50% or 33%). With a low-level character, I can endlessly ruin the game for my allies.
How do you plan to stop this?

By banning you for harassing people?
Seems easy enough to me.

It will be quite easy to tell when someone is doing this on purpose.

This is a game mechanic and you can't get banned for it.

Says who? If I catch you following me around tagging me with baby heals, I’m going to ask you to stop and if you don’t you’ll be reported for griefing.

Not a hard concept. You can grief players within the rules of the game, just like how you can get banned for t-bagging, except I’d imagine something like this would be taken a bit more serious.

How in the world are you ever going to enforce this at something like a keep battle?

Sure, if someone is following you around on the other side of the map it is obvious what their intent is but if you are defending an Emperor keep where tons of players converge naturally you are never going to be able to make this accusation.

Most casual players DO NOT read patch notes. They will have NO IDEA that this is a thing.

It boggles the mind that we are still even debating this atrocious idea.

Very easily, the keys here are…

“following me around”
“ask you to stop and if you don’t”

If someone will not stop following you around after you asked them to stop, that is harrassment with or without the HoTs, and easy enough to enforce.

If you’re getting tagged by 3 Sticky HoTs, (leaving room for 2 of your own) at a keep, you should be fine with a 50% debuff.

I’ve gone and bolded the quoted parts in the original post, thank you.

This is just coping that should not be necessary because we deserve a better solution than this.

Like the poster below replied, any "solution" that leads you to have to report your fellow players is an awful "solution".

It's also like patently false what you say about not needing heals at a keep fight. That is when you need them the most! I enjoy solo pug healing and believe me when I tell you that it takes herculean effort to keep allied pugs alive during any sort of siege encounter, be that offense or defense. Overpowered siege is deployed by the dozens on both sides and one meatbag or Coldfire uncontested by heaps of friendly healing will absolutely destroy a pug on a casual build.

If you’re getting 3 HoTs tagged to you on top of your 2, even with a 50% debuff your healing will be more than enough unless you’re a PvP tank and anyone who played through the old Mist Form has their own reservations about those people.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Teeba_Shei
You can spin it any way you want but we all know being able to stack 8+ echoings/ radiating is a problem.

Most players don’t stack 8+ echoings in real play, and even when it happens, it doesn’t make a group invincible. PUGs, solo players, and smaller coordinated teams do find ways to counter stacked heals and kill these players.

Correct, it's not just the stacking of 12x separate sticky HoTs contributing to 30k per second healing and 16k+ shielding from non-ultimates that can be refreshed every gcd. It's also the group being at movement speed cap that also makes them functionally invincible. The counter-play to excessive healing and shielding, is excessive numerical damage aka making their healthbars drop to zero... but everything that can deliver that, is at the mercy of the group moving as a unit, the speed of mach seven so none of this excessive damage can do any damage.

Lets do a little fact checking, you claimed that having 12 Echoing Vigors active at once results in 30,000 healing per second. Let’s check the math. The tooltip on one Echoing Vigor shows around 20,000 total healing over 16 seconds, which works out to 1,250 healing per second. If you apply a 55% reduction from battle spirit, that drops to 562.5 healing per second per cast. Even if you stacked 12 of them, the total healing per second would be 562.5 times 12, which equals 6,750 HPS. That’s nowhere near 30,000. In fact, the claim is more than four times too high.

This clearly proves that the person making the claim is completely misinformed. How can anyone take an opinion this blatantly wrong about the game’s most basic mechanics seriously, especially on a change this huge? Spouting numbers that are off by more than four times isn’t just a mistake—it’s recklessly misleading and undermines any real discussion about the game.

Bad faith argument, there's already a detailed post explaining the 30k hps an average ballgroup gets, im not going repeating here if you already glossed over it. It's not "just echoing vigor" and it's not just healing either. You can do run defense campaign, and i can go easily gather numerous recordings of me just following a ballgroup completely solo and becoming functionally invulnerable to all forms of damage as long as I have my own snare removal and speed buff to keep up with how lightning fast they are.

How about you prove it with math? I showed my work and you are calling that bad faith. You are not invulnerable.

It's bad faith because you took my echo vigor comment as the sole and only example, when ballgroups stack multiple sticky hots, not just echoing vigor. Your math is just centered on my comment about only echoing vigor.

You said, “12× separate sticky HoTs contributing to 30k per second healing,” so I took 12 Echoing Vigors and did the math. Give me whatever combination of 12 sticky HoTs you want, and we can do the math. This isn’t a bad-faith argument, because I’m going into detailed math, and you’re free to engage with it and point out where I’m wrong.