TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

As a 1vXer I am already capable of doing successful 1v4s against average pugs and make 8-10 players chase after me in a keep. Sure i may not kill them, but that’s only because I have to build for both damage and tankiness. I can’t reliably burst down a big group unless I’m on a full damage build. Things change when you run a duo group. Now those 8-10 people have to spread their attention on 2 players, and this creates so much survivability on its own without needing any cross healing involved. Every time I run a duo group, I can always survive much longer than if I was soloing. Your kill potential also doubles as well with the 2nd man.

If you scale that up to a 3 or even a 4 man group, then you can actually take on that 8-10 man pug group and consistently win. This is btw not accounting for any cross healing. When I do 4 man group PvP with my guild, we can always take on 10-15 people on our solo builds. Yep, literally solo builds with Resolving Vigor and self heals lol. What happens when you actually become serious and optimize for group though? HoT stacking, buff stacking, set stacking, ect. increase your power ten fold. The most effective groups literally run around with 5k+ crit resistance, 30k+ resistances, and super high damage from all the damage buffs they get. It’s almost unfair to be on the receiving end of these players. You’re not just fighting 1 player with maxed out stats. You’re fighting multiple of them lol.

I find it funny how ball group players are trying so hard to convince people how ball groups aren’t impossible to kill and thus not requiring any nerfs to their playstyle. That notion is very misleading and doesn’t paint the full picture. Sure, it isn’t impossible to kill a ball group, but it takes a tremendous amount of manpower and time to fully wipe one, and we see this first hand every night in GH. Every large keep fight where a ball group shows up, lag instantly gets worse first, then the defending pugs start being dumpstered until this ball group either makes a mistake and gets punished by someone, or gets overwhelmed by the entire defending faction. Those are 2 rare occasions that require either overwhelming man power or sheer luck, timing, and their own mistakes. Possible? Yes. Easy to pull off? No, not by a long shot.

I agree it is not a walk in the park to kill a good ball group. They are stronger than they should be right now, and I do think some kind of nerf is needed.

That said, I think a big part of the “unkillable” feeling comes from the average Cyrodiil playerbase not understanding how to actually disrupt them, and the only people who consistently do understand it are ball group players themselves.

Like, 90% of the front lining population is running solo or 1vX style builds while “surfing the faction”. The rest are bombers or tanks. Even when people are in full 12 man groups, or have a whole faction stacked on top, they are still often built like they are trying to fight outnumbered. Obviously if you build like that, you are never going to dent a real ball group. You are basically trying to front line a zerg with a build meant for outnumbered duels, and it just does not work.

From what I have seen, with a little bit of effort, a 3 to 5 man squad can heavily disrupt, and even kill, an enemy 12 man ball group when that ball group is getting outnumbered, but only if the small squad builds specifically for front line zerg play and disruption. Most players just do not do that, so the ball group feels immortal.

So yes, ball groups are overtuned, but a lot of the “impossible to kill” narrative is playerbase ignorance and bad frontline builds, not that ball groups have zero counterplay.

hoangdz wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

As a 1vXer I am already capable of doing successful 1v4s against average pugs and make 8-10 players chase after me in a keep. Sure i may not kill them, but that’s only because I have to build for both damage and tankiness. I can’t reliably burst down a big group unless I’m on a full damage build. Things change when you run a duo group. Now those 8-10 people have to spread their attention on 2 players, and this creates so much survivability on its own without needing any cross healing involved. Every time I run a duo group, I can always survive much longer than if I was soloing. Your kill potential also doubles as well with the 2nd man.

If you scale that up to a 3 or even a 4 man group, then you can actually take on that 8-10 man pug group and consistently win. This is btw not accounting for any cross healing. When I do 4 man group PvP with my guild, we can always take on 10-15 people on our solo builds. Yep, literally solo builds with Resolving Vigor and self heals lol. What happens when you actually become serious and optimize for group though? HoT stacking, buff stacking, set stacking, ect. increase your power ten fold. The most effective groups literally run around with 5k+ crit resistance, 30k+ resistances, and super high damage from all the damage buffs they get. It’s almost unfair to be on the receiving end of these players. You’re not just fighting 1 player with maxed out stats. You’re fighting multiple of them lol.

I find it funny how ball group players are trying so hard to convince people how ball groups aren’t impossible to kill and thus not requiring any nerfs to their playstyle. That notion is very misleading and doesn’t paint the full picture. Sure, it isn’t impossible to kill a ball group, but it takes a tremendous amount of manpower and time to fully wipe one, and we see this first hand every night in GH. Every large keep fight where a ball group shows up, lag instantly gets worse first, then the defending pugs start being dumpstered until this ball group either makes a mistake and gets punished by someone, or gets overwhelmed by the entire defending faction. Those are 2 rare occasions that require either overwhelming man power or sheer luck, timing, and their own mistakes. Possible? Yes. Easy to pull off? No, not by a long shot.

I agree it is not a walk in the park to kill a good ball group. They are stronger than they should be right now, and I do think some kind of nerf is needed.

That said, I think a big part of the “unkillable” feeling comes from the average Cyrodiil playerbase not understanding how to actually disrupt them, and the only people who consistently do understand it are ball group players themselves.

Like, 90% of the front lining population is running solo or 1vX style builds while “surfing the faction”. The rest are bombers or tanks. Even when people are in full 12 man groups, or have a whole faction stacked on top, they are still often built like they are trying to fight outnumbered. Obviously if you build like that, you are never going to dent a real ball group. You are basically trying to front line a zerg with a build meant for outnumbered duels, and it just does not work.

From what I have seen, with a little bit of effort, a 3 to 5 man squad can heavily disrupt, and even kill, an enemy 12 man ball group when that ball group is getting outnumbered, but only if the small squad builds specifically for front line zerg play and disruption. Most players just do not do that, so the ball group feels immortal.

So yes, ball groups are overtuned, but a lot of the “impossible to kill” narrative is playerbase ignorance and bad frontline builds, not that ball groups have zero counterplay.

Those 3-5 squads technically aren’t hard to find, but one that is competent enough to survive a ball group’s offense and do their job is very rare. Small scalers generally avoid ball groups, so it’s really other ball group players like you said who actually want to do that job. You can’t find them as easily as finding a guy shooting siege off the keep wall lol.

There are definitely exaggerated claims about ball group survivability, but realistically speaking, it isn’t that crazy to the average player. I have swapped factions twice in 2025 and I still see 5 star players spamming heavy attacks for negative damage or mess up their rotation when pressured. The average player base in Cyrodiil isn’t as great as some people believe, so to them, ball group players might as well be unkillable gods lol.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Just log on tonight and snipit your cmx what your average tick is. It can probably also show you that more than 6 of your group's vigors can be on you at once too.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Teeba_Shei
You can spin it any way you want but we all know being able to stack 8+ echoings/ radiating is a problem.

Most players don’t stack 8+ echoings in real play, and even when it happens, it doesn’t make a group invincible. PUGs, solo players, and smaller coordinated teams do find ways to counter stacked heals and kill these players.

Correct, it's not just the stacking of 12x separate sticky HoTs contributing to 30k per second healing and 16k+ shielding from non-ultimates that can be refreshed every gcd. It's also the group being at movement speed cap that also makes them functionally invincible. The counter-play to excessive healing and shielding, is excessive numerical damage aka making their healthbars drop to zero... but everything that can deliver that, is at the mercy of the group moving as a unit, the speed of mach seven so none of this excessive damage can do any damage.

Lets do a little fact checking, you claimed that having 12 Echoing Vigors active at once results in 30,000 healing per second. Let’s check the math. The tooltip on one Echoing Vigor shows around 20,000 total healing over 16 seconds, which works out to 1,250 healing per second. If you apply a 55% reduction from battle spirit, that drops to 562.5 healing per second per cast. Even if you stacked 12 of them, the total healing per second would be 562.5 times 12, which equals 6,750 HPS. That’s nowhere near 30,000. In fact, the claim is more than four times too high.

This clearly proves that the person making the claim is completely misinformed. How can anyone take an opinion this blatantly wrong about the game’s most basic mechanics seriously, especially on a change this huge? Spouting numbers that are off by more than four times isn’t just a mistake—it’s recklessly misleading and undermines any real discussion about the game.

I'm not going to be including the cyrodil passive that increases healing by 20% when near a keep in these values because of course there are other factors which would make the final calculations a bit less in game so this will offset that.

Echoing: 23610/16 = 1475 hps
Radiating: 25170= 2517 hps
total: 3992
cyro healing debuff: -50% = 1996
12x for members= 23952 hps

BUT WAIT I have crit modifiers:
At 60% increased crit healing from modifiers like lucent that 23952 value goes up to 1.6* 23,952= 38,323 hps if everything crits.

Using a 30% crit chance (which is what I had on the build editor). and using a weighted average formula:
(23952*0.70) + (38,323*0.30) = 28,264 AVERAGE hps from 2 skills so . . .yeah.

values from the build editor which currently doesn't let me save builds, but you can recreate it yourself. Sets I put on the healer were powerful assault and lucent echos. 3x swift snow treaders 2x earthgore. And ofc I included buffs you would get from a ball group like major courage from olo etc.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

As a 1vXer I am already capable of doing successful 1v4s against average pugs and make 8-10 players chase after me in a keep. Sure i may not kill them, but that’s only because I have to build for both damage and tankiness. I can’t reliably burst down a big group unless I’m on a full damage build. Things change when you run a duo group. Now those 8-10 people have to spread their attention on 2 players, and this creates so much survivability on its own without needing any cross healing involved. Every time I run a duo group, I can always survive much longer than if I was soloing. Your kill potential also doubles as well with the 2nd man.

If you scale that up to a 3 or even a 4 man group, then you can actually take on that 8-10 man pug group and consistently win. This is btw not accounting for any cross healing. When I do 4 man group PvP with my guild, we can always take on 10-15 people on our solo builds. Yep, literally solo builds with Resolving Vigor and self heals lol. What happens when you actually become serious and optimize for group though? HoT stacking, buff stacking, set stacking, ect. increase your power ten fold. The most effective groups literally run around with 5k+ crit resistance, 30k+ resistances, and super high damage from all the damage buffs they get. It’s almost unfair to be on the receiving end of these players. You’re not just fighting 1 player with maxed out stats. You’re fighting multiple of them lol.

I find it funny how ball group players are trying so hard to convince people how ball groups aren’t impossible to kill and thus not requiring any nerfs to their playstyle. That notion is very misleading and doesn’t paint the full picture. Sure, it isn’t impossible to kill a ball group, but it takes a tremendous amount of manpower and time to fully wipe one, and we see this first hand every night in GH. Every large keep fight where a ball group shows up, lag instantly gets worse first, then the defending pugs start being dumpstered until this ball group either makes a mistake and gets punished by someone, or gets overwhelmed by the entire defending faction. Those are 2 rare occasions that require either overwhelming man power or sheer luck, timing, and their own mistakes. Possible? Yes. Easy to pull off? No, not by a long shot.

I agree it is not a walk in the park to kill a good ball group. They are stronger than they should be right now, and I do think some kind of nerf is needed.

That said, I think a big part of the “unkillable” feeling comes from the average Cyrodiil playerbase not understanding how to actually disrupt them, and the only people who consistently do understand it are ball group players themselves.

Like, 90% of the front lining population is running solo or 1vX style builds while “surfing the faction”. The rest are bombers or tanks. Even when people are in full 12 man groups, or have a whole faction stacked on top, they are still often built like they are trying to fight outnumbered. Obviously if you build like that, you are never going to dent a real ball group. You are basically trying to front line a zerg with a build meant for outnumbered duels, and it just does not work.

From what I have seen, with a little bit of effort, a 3 to 5 man squad can heavily disrupt, and even kill, an enemy 12 man ball group when that ball group is getting outnumbered, but only if the small squad builds specifically for front line zerg play and disruption. Most players just do not do that, so the ball group feels immortal.

So yes, ball groups are overtuned, but a lot of the “impossible to kill” narrative is playerbase ignorance and bad frontline builds, not that ball groups have zero counterplay.

Those 3-5 squads technically aren’t hard to find, but one that is competent enough to survive a ball group’s offense and do their job is very rare. Small scalers generally avoid ball groups, so it’s really other ball group players like you said who actually want to do that job. You can’t find them as easily as finding a guy shooting siege off the keep wall lol.

There are definitely exaggerated claims about ball group survivability, but realistically speaking, it isn’t that crazy to the average player. I have swapped factions twice in 2025 and I still see 5 star players spamming heavy attacks for negative damage or mess up their rotation when pressured. The average player base in Cyrodiil isn’t as great as some people believe, so to them, ball group players might as well be unkillable gods lol.

Yeah, this reinforces my point.

The average Cyrodiil player, especially nowadays, is ignorant and either doesn’t understand how to properly disrupt a ball group, or just doesn’t want to put in even a fraction of the effort a ball group puts into min maxing comp, sets, roles, and coordination. Most people want ball groups gone without ever learning how to deal with them, because they want to play whatever RP build they conjured up that morning, or they want to hold block on a block tank with 10 APM while they burn siege and call it “PvP”.

And this is exactly where the “unkillable ball groups” and “no counterplay” narrative comes from. Not because there is no counterplay, there is, but because the average player would rather complain than adapt.

Maybe if people got off their a** and used their neurons for a change, we’d see a lot fewer “invincible ball group” claims.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

As a 1vXer I am already capable of doing successful 1v4s against average pugs and make 8-10 players chase after me in a keep. Sure i may not kill them, but that’s only because I have to build for both damage and tankiness. I can’t reliably burst down a big group unless I’m on a full damage build. Things change when you run a duo group. Now those 8-10 people have to spread their attention on 2 players, and this creates so much survivability on its own without needing any cross healing involved. Every time I run a duo group, I can always survive much longer than if I was soloing. Your kill potential also doubles as well with the 2nd man.

If you scale that up to a 3 or even a 4 man group, then you can actually take on that 8-10 man pug group and consistently win. This is btw not accounting for any cross healing. When I do 4 man group PvP with my guild, we can always take on 10-15 people on our solo builds. Yep, literally solo builds with Resolving Vigor and self heals lol. What happens when you actually become serious and optimize for group though? HoT stacking, buff stacking, set stacking, ect. increase your power ten fold. The most effective groups literally run around with 5k+ crit resistance, 30k+ resistances, and super high damage from all the damage buffs they get. It’s almost unfair to be on the receiving end of these players. You’re not just fighting 1 player with maxed out stats. You’re fighting multiple of them lol.

I find it funny how ball group players are trying so hard to convince people how ball groups aren’t impossible to kill and thus not requiring any nerfs to their playstyle. That notion is very misleading and doesn’t paint the full picture. Sure, it isn’t impossible to kill a ball group, but it takes a tremendous amount of manpower and time to fully wipe one, and we see this first hand every night in GH. Every large keep fight where a ball group shows up, lag instantly gets worse first, then the defending pugs start being dumpstered until this ball group either makes a mistake and gets punished by someone, or gets overwhelmed by the entire defending faction. Those are 2 rare occasions that require either overwhelming man power or sheer luck, timing, and their own mistakes. Possible? Yes. Easy to pull off? No, not by a long shot.

I agree it is not a walk in the park to kill a good ball group. They are stronger than they should be right now, and I do think some kind of nerf is needed.

That said, I think a big part of the “unkillable” feeling comes from the average Cyrodiil playerbase not understanding how to actually disrupt them, and the only people who consistently do understand it are ball group players themselves.

Like, 90% of the front lining population is running solo or 1vX style builds while “surfing the faction”. The rest are bombers or tanks. Even when people are in full 12 man groups, or have a whole faction stacked on top, they are still often built like they are trying to fight outnumbered. Obviously if you build like that, you are never going to dent a real ball group. You are basically trying to front line a zerg with a build meant for outnumbered duels, and it just does not work.

From what I have seen, with a little bit of effort, a 3 to 5 man squad can heavily disrupt, and even kill, an enemy 12 man ball group when that ball group is getting outnumbered, but only if the small squad builds specifically for front line zerg play and disruption. Most players just do not do that, so the ball group feels immortal.

So yes, ball groups are overtuned, but a lot of the “impossible to kill” narrative is playerbase ignorance and bad frontline builds, not that ball groups have zero counterplay.

Those 3-5 squads technically aren’t hard to find, but one that is competent enough to survive a ball group’s offense and do their job is very rare. Small scalers generally avoid ball groups, so it’s really other ball group players like you said who actually want to do that job. You can’t find them as easily as finding a guy shooting siege off the keep wall lol.

There are definitely exaggerated claims about ball group survivability, but realistically speaking, it isn’t that crazy to the average player. I have swapped factions twice in 2025 and I still see 5 star players spamming heavy attacks for negative damage or mess up their rotation when pressured. The average player base in Cyrodiil isn’t as great as some people believe, so to them, ball group players might as well be unkillable gods lol.

Yeah, this reinforces my point.

The average Cyrodiil player, especially nowadays, is ignorant and either doesn’t understand how to properly disrupt a ball group, or just doesn’t want to put in even a fraction of the effort a ball group puts into min maxing comp, sets, roles, and coordination. Most people want ball groups gone without ever learning how to deal with them, because they want to play whatever RP build they conjured up that morning, or they want to hold block on a block tank with 10 APM while they burn siege and call it “PvP”.

And this is exactly where the “unkillable ball groups” and “no counterplay” narrative comes from. Not because there is no counterplay, there is, but because the average player would rather complain than adapt.

Maybe if people got off their a** and used their neurons for a change, we’d see a lot fewer “invincible ball group” claims.

Well, when people did that some time ago and made specific comps with azureblight to counter them.....lets just say they didn´t like the counterplay it offered

Moothos wrote: »

As this is currently written, it opens up the possibility of griefing where random people can throw a 3rd heal over time on your character, and now your own healing suffers for it.

• Wear Pale Order and no one can heal you but you.
• Imagine being so unliked even by people on your own faction that you worry about this.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Teeba_Shei
You can spin it any way you want but we all know being able to stack 8+ echoings/ radiating is a problem.

Most players don’t stack 8+ echoings in real play, and even when it happens, it doesn’t make a group invincible. PUGs, solo players, and smaller coordinated teams do find ways to counter stacked heals and kill these players.

Correct, it's not just the stacking of 12x separate sticky HoTs contributing to 30k per second healing and 16k+ shielding from non-ultimates that can be refreshed every gcd. It's also the group being at movement speed cap that also makes them functionally invincible. The counter-play to excessive healing and shielding, is excessive numerical damage aka making their healthbars drop to zero... but everything that can deliver that, is at the mercy of the group moving as a unit, the speed of mach seven so none of this excessive damage can do any damage.

Lets do a little fact checking, you claimed that having 12 Echoing Vigors active at once results in 30,000 healing per second. Let’s check the math. The tooltip on one Echoing Vigor shows around 20,000 total healing over 16 seconds, which works out to 1,250 healing per second. If you apply a 55% reduction from battle spirit, that drops to 562.5 healing per second per cast. Even if you stacked 12 of them, the total healing per second would be 562.5 times 12, which equals 6,750 HPS. That’s nowhere near 30,000. In fact, the claim is more than four times too high.

This clearly proves that the person making the claim is completely misinformed. How can anyone take an opinion this blatantly wrong about the game’s most basic mechanics seriously, especially on a change this huge? Spouting numbers that are off by more than four times isn’t just a mistake—it’s recklessly misleading and undermines any real discussion about the game.

I'm not going to be including the cyrodil passive that increases healing by 20% when near a keep in these values because of course there are other factors which would make the final calculations a bit less in game so this will offset that.

Echoing: 23610/16 = 1475 hps
Radiating: 25170= 2517 hps
total: 3992
cyro healing debuff: -50% = 1996
12x for members= 23952 hps

BUT WAIT I have crit modifiers:
At 60% increased crit healing from modifiers like lucent that 23952 value goes up to 1.6* 23,952= 38,323 hps if everything crits.

Using a 30% crit chance (which is what I had on the build editor). and using a weighted average formula:
(23952*0.70) + (38,323*0.30) = 28,264 AVERAGE hps from 2 skills so . . .yeah.

values from the build editor which currently doesn't let me save builds, but you can recreate it yourself. Sets I put on the healer were powerful assault and lucent echos. 3x swift snow treaders 2x earthgore. And ofc I included buffs you would get from a ball group like major courage from olo etc.

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Teeba_Shei
You can spin it any way you want but we all know being able to stack 8+ echoings/ radiating is a problem.

Most players don’t stack 8+ echoings in real play, and even when it happens, it doesn’t make a group invincible. PUGs, solo players, and smaller coordinated teams do find ways to counter stacked heals and kill these players.

Correct, it's not just the stacking of 12x separate sticky HoTs contributing to 30k per second healing and 16k+ shielding from non-ultimates that can be refreshed every gcd. It's also the group being at movement speed cap that also makes them functionally invincible. The counter-play to excessive healing and shielding, is excessive numerical damage aka making their healthbars drop to zero... but everything that can deliver that, is at the mercy of the group moving as a unit, the speed of mach seven so none of this excessive damage can do any damage.

Lets do a little fact checking, you claimed that having 12 Echoing Vigors active at once results in 30,000 healing per second. Let’s check the math. The tooltip on one Echoing Vigor shows around 20,000 total healing over 16 seconds, which works out to 1,250 healing per second. If you apply a 55% reduction from battle spirit, that drops to 562.5 healing per second per cast. Even if you stacked 12 of them, the total healing per second would be 562.5 times 12, which equals 6,750 HPS. That’s nowhere near 30,000. In fact, the claim is more than four times too high.

This clearly proves that the person making the claim is completely misinformed. How can anyone take an opinion this blatantly wrong about the game’s most basic mechanics seriously, especially on a change this huge? Spouting numbers that are off by more than four times isn’t just a mistake—it’s recklessly misleading and undermines any real discussion about the game.

I'm not going to be including the cyrodil passive that increases healing by 20% when near a keep in these values because of course there are other factors which would make the final calculations a bit less in game so this will offset that.

Echoing: 23610/16 = 1475 hps
Radiating: 25170= 2517 hps
total: 3992
cyro healing debuff: -50% = 1996
12x for members= 23952 hps

BUT WAIT I have crit modifiers:
At 60% increased crit healing from modifiers like lucent that 23952 value goes up to 1.6* 23,952= 38,323 hps if everything crits.

Using a 30% crit chance (which is what I had on the build editor). and using a weighted average formula:
(23952*0.70) + (38,323*0.30) = 28,264 AVERAGE hps from 2 skills so . . .yeah.

values from the build editor which currently doesn't let me save builds, but you can recreate it yourself. Sets I put on the healer were powerful assault and lucent echos. 3x swift snow treaders 2x earthgore. And ofc I included buffs you would get from a ball group like major courage from olo etc.

Besides the fact that you don’t know what the actual Battle Spirit heal reduction is, your numbers are insanely high. The other person also said 12 sticky HoTs, not 24. I went into a build calculator to try to reach the Echoing Vigor tooltip you’re claiming. Do these stats sound reasonable to you, even within a ball group? (They’re not.)

11635 SPELL DAMAGE
27607 STAMINA

This once again proves that people in this thread know nothing about the actual game and shouldn’t be taken seriously. Keep in mind, I had to enable every single spell damage buff in the build calculator—including running simmering frenzy, just coming out of stealth, having every possible scroll bonus, and using a completely unrealistic build that would never work in a ball group.

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

@Teeba_Shei
You can spin it any way you want but we all know being able to stack 8+ echoings/ radiating is a problem.

Most players don’t stack 8+ echoings in real play, and even when it happens, it doesn’t make a group invincible. PUGs, solo players, and smaller coordinated teams do find ways to counter stacked heals and kill these players.

Correct, it's not just the stacking of 12x separate sticky HoTs contributing to 30k per second healing and 16k+ shielding from non-ultimates that can be refreshed every gcd. It's also the group being at movement speed cap that also makes them functionally invincible. The counter-play to excessive healing and shielding, is excessive numerical damage aka making their healthbars drop to zero... but everything that can deliver that, is at the mercy of the group moving as a unit, the speed of mach seven so none of this excessive damage can do any damage.

Lets do a little fact checking, you claimed that having 12 Echoing Vigors active at once results in 30,000 healing per second. Let’s check the math. The tooltip on one Echoing Vigor shows around 20,000 total healing over 16 seconds, which works out to 1,250 healing per second. If you apply a 55% reduction from battle spirit, that drops to 562.5 healing per second per cast. Even if you stacked 12 of them, the total healing per second would be 562.5 times 12, which equals 6,750 HPS. That’s nowhere near 30,000. In fact, the claim is more than four times too high.

This clearly proves that the person making the claim is completely misinformed. How can anyone take an opinion this blatantly wrong about the game’s most basic mechanics seriously, especially on a change this huge? Spouting numbers that are off by more than four times isn’t just a mistake—it’s recklessly misleading and undermines any real discussion about the game.

I'm not going to be including the cyrodil passive that increases healing by 20% when near a keep in these values because of course there are other factors which would make the final calculations a bit less in game so this will offset that.

Echoing: 23610/16 = 1475 hps
Radiating: 25170= 2517 hps
total: 3992
cyro healing debuff: -50% = 1996
12x for members= 23952 hps

BUT WAIT I have crit modifiers:
At 60% increased crit healing from modifiers like lucent that 23952 value goes up to 1.6* 23,952= 38,323 hps if everything crits.

Using a 30% crit chance (which is what I had on the build editor). and using a weighted average formula:
(23952*0.70) + (38,323*0.30) = 28,264 AVERAGE hps from 2 skills so . . .yeah.

values from the build editor which currently doesn't let me save builds, but you can recreate it yourself. Sets I put on the healer were powerful assault and lucent echos. 3x swift snow treaders 2x earthgore. And ofc I included buffs you would get from a ball group like major courage from olo etc.

Besides the fact that you don’t know what the actual Battle Spirit heal reduction is, your numbers are insanely high. The other person also said 12 sticky HoTs, not 24. I went into a build calculator to try to reach the Echoing Vigor tooltip you’re claiming. Do these stats sound reasonable to you, even within a ball group? (They’re not.)

11635 SPELL DAMAGE
27607 STAMINA

This once again proves that people in this thread know nothing about the actual game and shouldn’t be taken seriously. Keep in mind, I had to enable every single spell damage buff in the build calculator—including running simmering frenzy, just coming out of stealth, having every possible scroll bonus, and using a completely unrealistic build that would never work in a ball group.

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

‘We all know’ is a bold claim for something that isn’t actually true. Most players don’t stack 8+ echoings in real play, and even when it happens, it doesn’t make a group invincible. PUGs, solo players, and smaller coordinated teams do find ways to counter stacked heals and kill these players.

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Saying it’s “a problem” as if it’s universally oppressive ignores the nuance of actual gameplay. Just because the potential exists doesn’t mean it’s broken—numbers on a tooltip don’t automatically translate to unstoppable power in Cyrodiil. If stacking 8+ heals were really game-breaking, we’d see keeps falling effortlessly to them every night, but that’s not what happens. Facts, not assumptions, matter.

ioResult wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Yeah this is madness. So now if a random proc healer runs by you and slaps on hots, now your own healing is going to be gutted. Cant wait to be 1vXing and the most dangerous part is when a random teammate shows up trying to heal me thinking he is helping but instead cuts my healing by 50%.

Well first off "1vXing" is by far a minority playstyle in Cyrodill so literally nothing should be optimized for it. And second, you don't want someone healing you by accident? Wear a Pale Order ring and problem solved, you never have to worry about it because no one but you can heal you. If you are truly "1vXing" then you should never want anyone else healing you, right?

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Also how performative do we think slapping more calculations onto the most calculation dense skills will be? Lag on top of lag is all I see. Not to mention pushing ball groups to spam aoe ground hots which certainly wont be more performative on the server considering what we saw in vengeance with the lag introduced test 2 with groups spamming resto heals.

AoE-anything is a concern in Cyrodiil but are ball groups that are constantly running around going to be dropping AoE heals? Seems unlikely. It seems far more likely that instead of getting 10 stacking vigors and 8 stacking regens, they only get now effectively 5 stacking vigors and 4 stacking regens. Bad ball groups will suffer. Good ball groups will get by, although be easier to kill. The ones most affected will be the Agony bomb 4-man groups - and this is a good thing. Rem's group and QuantumRizzer's group are effectively unkillable except by a megazerg now, so doing this to kill that idiotic play style is a really, really good thing.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

If we want to prevent groups stacking hots.

• Maybe start by not having all the group sets like rallying cry demand you spam aoe hots on your group as a proc condition. Why not have these group proc sets demand a healer use single target aimed heals or something less bloated on the server? Maybe they proc off of successfully purging allies at low health. IDK anything is better than telling ballgroups to spam aoe hots on repeat until they have ult. How about make these group sets only trigger off group utility ultimates or synergies. STOP INCENTIVIZING BAD BEHAVIOUR.

They can just get rid of Rallying Cry altogether because it is another thing that benefits very few playstyles. And again, if ball groups stand still and spam AoE HoTs in a location, they will get Negated and wiped in seconds. Sorry but the high heal stacking and Rallying Crutch are what actually incentivize the two most despised behaviors (playstyles) in Cyrodiil today: ball groups and Agony bomb groups. I would like to see AoE heals go back to what ZOS tried once though, in-group-only heals.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

• Maybe prevent hots from stacking like how the game used to be? Use the vengeance split skill system to make pvp versions of the code and then change the pvp versions of skills to not stack effects. Solving your hot stacking issue while also drastically cutting out on potential calculations.

We have asked HoTs to be capped at 3 stacks for years and years because you only have two healers in any Trials group, so stacking any more than that literally only benefits ball groups in Cyrodiil and causes all the lag. But ZoS has never done anything until now. You are trying to optimize for edge cases rather than what ZoS has done here, which is solve for the main use cases causing issues with server performance today.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

• Make hots purge themselves if they tick twice in a row while you are at full hp. This cuts out tons of calculations and prevents lingering sticky hots endlessly staying on players.

This is an interesting idea, but I don't know how calculation intensive developing such logic would be. I fear it would be more calculation intense on the server than what ZoS just implemented.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

• Hots like Echoing vigor should be balanced around 4 man teams instead of 12 man teams to incentivize small man group play. For group heals like this you should just give the caster a guaranteed self heal and make the group heal a different tick that doesn't stack.

No, HoTs like Echoing Vigor should be balanced around Trials groups. You want small man group play? Simple fix. Go play Battlegrounds. That's what they were invented for. Cyrodill is supposed to be open world PvP and everything you suggest tries to optimize for edge case playstyles.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

• Make more skills non smart heal like in vengeance where rapid regen had to be aimed at a target to apply. This opens up doors to more skilled exciting healing gameplay instead of just holding W and spamming an automatic aoe conal skill that does the "smart" targeting for you. If damage dealers can aim, so can healers.

This is a really great idea, but again I worry about the calculations on the server necessary to make this a reality in open world where so many people in a relatively small space is what makes all the calculations kick off in the first place.

1. I did already point out pale order to zos as it was my plan to bypass the absurd rule. Its wild on its own right that in an mmo the lifesteal playstyle has been not allowed to group, but thats ranting for another thread. Also its dumb to think 1vXers cant enter a keep or they must never be in render distance of an ally player..... I was using a 1vX or duo scenario to show how absurd and trolly the proposed 50% cut was. You can easily trigger the 3 hots and welp now you are dead.>> I think we are on the same page here though
2. The ballgroups spamming ground heals would be because the ground based heals would not trigger zos's proposed sticky hot counter and thus avoiding the heal cut.
3. Rallying - Same page. Although I think rallying should be a signal to zos that crit damage has way too many sources compared to crit resist. Which doesnt help our hots issue because how RNG works in pvp environments we need to counteract with a stabilizing force such as hots or health recovery.
4. Yeah pve trial rules got us stuck in this mess
5. The self purging sticky hots shouldnt be too bad. If anything the one integer counter stopping many lingering ticks cascading into other procs very likely makes it worth it.
6. 4man vs 12 man well my reasoning here is they need to do one or the other. Right now I can maintain the skill ticking on 12 group members yet it is 1/5 the hps as resolving vigor. Personally I think group tools should be moved more class skilline based or else we run into the situations where everyone tends to run the same spam so everyone you fight feels cookie cutter. This can also help push more specialized roles instead of having super homogenized groups at all levels.
7. Aimed single targets performance wise are astronomically more efficient than figuring out who out of a 40 man breach fight gets heals. Its just taking whoever your currently aimed at which the game already checks. VS an aoe is pulling and comparing XXX number of players HP stats.......... I think I talked on this more but like we could have an aimed and smartheal morph, just make the aimed more heal for more or cost less by 10% 20% 30% IDK? Honestly I thought this is how subclassing was going to work where you could piece together a skill using template mechanics and variables affecting the tooltip.