Solo Dungeons will Kill the MMO.

SilverBride · January 14

JustLovely wrote: »

The only way solo/story mode doesn't break the game for players who play MMO's for grouping and socializing is if there are no rewards.

Not being able to do the quest or enjoy the story breaks the game for players that enjoy those things.

ArchangelIsraphel · January 14

JustLovely wrote: »

The arguments against solo mode are not weak. The only way solo/story mode doesn't break the game for players who play MMO's for grouping and socializing is if there are no rewards.

ZOS didn't say they were going to start handing out gear from trials or rewards from major vet dungeon achievements during story mode.

And getting the same weapon drops we get every day doing undaunted is hardly game breaking. People already solo those dungeons all the time, and the game hasn't come grinding to a halt. Monster helms? You can port into Cyro every weekend and buy them for 100k.

But even then, I doubt any of that will end up being dropped in storymode. It seems to me that they'll have separate rewards and achievements for story mode, which they should have, for casual players and endgamers alike. Other games have already proven that storymode doesn't interfere with grouping. I think people are overestimating the impact of letting people read some quest dialogue.

AzuraFan · January 14

JustLovely wrote: »

If story or solo dungeons give monster helms or rewards at all it will break the game for everyone who wants to group and play group content. The solo or story mode should be the only reward for those players wanting it.

Why would giving monster helms break the game for groups? I've got a ton of monster helms in my sticker book for dungeons I've never completed in vet. You don't even have to do dungeons to get monster helms. So no, it won't break the game. You can let go of those pearls you're clutching.

As for solo or story mode being the only reward, that's been covered in the thread already. Why do some in this community want to deny solo activities rewards? Sorry, but it's petty. There's no other way to put it.

Syldras wrote: »

Do they want to group and socialize with people who don't want to group and socialize but only participate in dungeons for the rewards? Doesn't sound like fun to me.

Exactly. Why would someone want to play with a group of players that would rather be doing something else?

spartaxoxo · January 14

When I queue for a group in the dungeon finder, I don't know what my teammates' motivations are the majority of the time. And if they don't share them, then I don't care. Although, I will help them if asked. I just want to find a group in a timely manner and get the dungeon completed for whatever reason I went inside.

Tallon_IV · January 14

JustLovely wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Story mode is already an option. Just group with 3 friends and go the the dungeon of your choice and spend as much time there doing whatever you like. I'm pretty sure you could even do one friend and two companions and make it work, or just go in by yourself and solo the dungeon.

Or just go into a Story Mode dungeon in our own time and our own way, without having to coordinate with 3 other players, or take a character that is strong enough to solo a dungeon, and enjoy the story, because WHY NOT?

Because ESO is an MMO that should encourage grouping. That's why.

Why do so many people come to ESO and insist it be a different game than it was designed to be? If you don't like ESO there are tons of solo games out there to choose from, most games are for solo players.

Why does it bother you so much? If you don't want to do solo dungeons, don't do them. Easy.

Syldras · January 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

When I queue for a group in the dungeon finder, I don't know what my teammates' motivations are the majority of the time. And if they don't share them, then I don't care. Although, I will help them if asked. I just want to find a group in a timely manner and get the dungeon completed for whatever reason I went inside.

But that other poster brought up socializing. And that won't work if the other person has no interest whatsoever.

ArchangelIsraphel · January 14

AzuraFan wrote: »

As for solo or story mode being the only reward, that's been covered in the thread already. Why do some in this community want to deny solo activities rewards?

I think it stems from the false biases that surround roleplayers and casual gamers in general. Many assume that roleplayers and people who want to enjoy story content are somehow "lazy" or "don't want to put in effort" just because they'd rather not group. Therefore they think that they don't "deserve" rewards for content completion because it was "easy". It's a mentality that fails to account for the personal abilities of the individual, and what someone other than themselves might consider hard.

I've always felt that roleplay and story being actively devalued on these forums was pretty sad, especially since it's really the games main driver. The funny thing is, many of the roleplayers I know are extremely high achievers in game, because the drive to embody their character leads them to solo some crazy stuff.

I think it also comes from a perspective where people feel entitled to the time and energy of others just because it's a multiplayer game. If people are allowed to solo, then they're not bound in service to a random stranger on the internet, and some might find that upsetting because it means they can't control when and how other players are rewarded. Or press them into service so that they themselves can gain rewards, whether that be social validation or in game items. The comfort of others isn't as important to them as what they can gain.

That's my perspective on the matter, in any case.

AzuraFan · January 14

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

I think it stems from the false biases that surround roleplayers and casual gamers in general. Many assume that roleplayers and people who want to enjoy story content are somehow "lazy" or "don't want to put in effort" just because they'd rather not group. Therefore they think that they don't "deserve" rewards for content completion because it was "easy". It's a mentality that fails to account for the personal abilities of the individual, and what someone other than themselves might consider hard.

It's also bizarre, because as far as dungeons go, it's easier to complete them in a group than it is to do them solo. Obviously the new solo mode will be scaled back. But right now, it's more difficult for someone to solo a dungeon than it is to group and do it. I've certainly been in groups where it's obvious that another person is being carried or has no idea how to use skills. But according to the bias you've described, someone who solos a dungeon deserves no rewards, but someone who does it in a group should be showered with them.

How about rewarding everyone equally? Because everyone has completed the same dungeon. It could be that for some players, completing one of the new solo dungeons is more difficult, or equally difficult, than completing the same regular dungeon with a group.

I think it also comes from a perspective where people feel entitled to the time and energy of others just because it's a multiplayer game. If people are allowed to solo, then they're not bound in service to a random stranger on the internet, and some might find that upsetting because it means they can't control when and how other players are rewarded. Or press them into service so that they themselves can gain rewards, whether that be social validation or in game items. The comfort of others isn't as important to them as what they can gain.

This is closer to the real reason behind the "solo activities deserve no rewards" silliness. It's the, "But then nobody will play with meeeeeee," attitude. They don't care whether other players are enjoying themselves or not, because other players exist to serve their goals and their playstyle. They want solo dungeons to have crappy or no rewards so players will still be forced to do dungeons with them. Sad, really.

Soarora · January 14

Syldras wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

The arguments against solo mode are not weak. The only way solo/story mode doesn't break the game for players who play MMO's for grouping and socializing is if there are no rewards.

Do they want to group and socialize with people who don't want to group and socialize but only participate in dungeons for the rewards? Doesn't sound like fun to me.

I really don't! I want people who don't want to be there out of my queue!

And if people get introduced to dungeons solo then they might have a more enjoyable experience with dungeons overall since they won't have the frustration of trying to do the quest with a random norm group.

Deserrick · January 14

I hope this movement to optional instanced/ solo/ story-mode difficulty content expands to include more areas of the game.

peacenote · January 14

Players will always do the thing that is most efficient and the best use of their time for rewards. They will do this even if it isn't fun, and then just complain about it.

As a result, I'd say this will not ruin the game or the dungeon queue as long as the rewards are handled carefully. If you get, say, equal or more transmutes, curated drops, monster helms, and various other things people tend to choose as reasons to pop into a dungeon, and you can get them via an easier mode without having to wait for the queue vs. just wanting to see and play the dungeon, people who would otherwise play and even enjoy the group queue will select solo instead. So, we'll have to see. I feel like we haven't gotten enough information.

Me, personally, I like options. It's what makes ESO so great. I like content that allows me to try it solo OR grouped. I prefer to play with friends but I don't begrudge anyone who wants to go it alone, and will sometimes do so myself. So I love content like... IA, quests, dungeons, delves, world bosses, Cyro, IC, etc. because I can enjoy it with friends but do it by myself periodically. What I dislike the MOST is forced solo content. All I can think of, right now, for forced solo content are arenas, Tales of Tribute, and the companion quests. I can't think of a single instance of truly FORCED group content, such that you literally cannot enter the content or try it without being in a group (like how ToT forces you to not be in a group to queue), but for all intents and purposes trials are effectively forced group content, because you really can't complete it alone, and (in a way) BG's are forced because you get placed in a group (a team) if you don't have one. As a result, my least played content in the game is arenas and ToT, because I must do it by myself even if my friends are on and can play. No thanks. I know why they don't do allow this, but I'd enjoy ToT way more if playing against my friends actually gave me rewards and progress. Even fishing gives you a bonus if you do it with someone else!

I feel like it was somewhat of a waste of resources (both dev-wise and performance-wise) to recreate dungeons as solo dungeons, because MOST dungeons can be solo'd normal, and if you really can't do it, it's not THAT hard to find one friend in group finder who's willing to help you go through the story. It doesn't mean you have to join five guilds and suddenly not really be a solo player. People forget about the group finder; it's nice. The payoff on revamping old content just to ENSURE someone can do it alone seems low. However, I know this is a feature in other games and I don't begrudge anyone a story mode as long as we get other meaningful, more interesting content that's actually new.

What I will dislike, a LOT, is if they add a bunch of achievements and special rewards and cosmetics for completing the solo dungeons and you CAN'T take even a single friend in to do it as a duo. I like getting achievements. I like cosmetics. If people are going to be given an environment scaled to being alone, difficulty-wise, that's one thing. But if we aren't allowed to enter with friends, even though we can quest with friends in almost every other way, ESPECIALLY if the content isn't hard or scored like arenas... that will irritate me greatly. I will not enjoy being forced to do something solo that a) technically I've done already, tons of times and b) is not NECESSARY to do alone, just to obtain those rewards and achievements. Now, if the solo dungeons are some kind of scored, challenging solo bragging rights environment, then I'd understand that they are more like mini-arenas... but if they turn out to be that, I feel like ZOS will have completely missed the boat on their audience.

So, since we ARE getting them, I hope they don't produce rewards that are comparable or better to the grouped experience, as that will reduce people's motivations to try playing with others, and I hope they allow you to bring a friend (or three!) if you want.

peacenote · January 14

AzuraFan wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

I think it stems from the false biases that surround roleplayers and casual gamers in general. Many assume that roleplayers and people who want to enjoy story content are somehow "lazy" or "don't want to put in effort" just because they'd rather not group. Therefore they think that they don't "deserve" rewards for content completion because it was "easy". It's a mentality that fails to account for the personal abilities of the individual, and what someone other than themselves might consider hard.

It's also bizarre, because as far as dungeons go, it's easier to complete them in a group than it is to do them solo. Obviously the new solo mode will be scaled back. But right now, it's more difficult for someone to solo a dungeon than it is to group and do it. I've certainly been in groups where it's obvious that another person is being carried or has no idea how to use skills. But according to the bias you've described, someone who solos a dungeon deserves no rewards, but someone who does it in a group should be showered with them.

How about rewarding everyone equally? Because everyone has completed the same dungeon. It could be that for some players, completing one of the new solo dungeons is more difficult, or equally difficult, than completing the same regular dungeon with a group.

I think it also comes from a perspective where people feel entitled to the time and energy of others just because it's a multiplayer game. If people are allowed to solo, then they're not bound in service to a random stranger on the internet, and some might find that upsetting because it means they can't control when and how other players are rewarded. Or press them into service so that they themselves can gain rewards, whether that be social validation or in game items. The comfort of others isn't as important to them as what they can gain.

This is closer to the real reason behind the "solo activities deserve no rewards" silliness. It's the, "But then nobody will play with meeeeeee," attitude. They don't care whether other players are enjoying themselves or not, because other players exist to serve their goals and their playstyle. They want solo dungeons to have crappy or no rewards so players will still be forced to do dungeons with them. Sad, really.

I think this is a little unfair. At least to some people who are trying to see the larger picture and think through unintended consequences. Which I always try to do.

I personally rarely use the dungeon queue anymore. I stopped after AwA, because a big driver for me to want to do pledges and repeat dungeons was to get the achievements on all my characters. I can solo or duo almost any dungeon, even many vet dungeons, and I am in guilds and have friends that like to run dungeons. If they are available, we run together, and if not, I tend to do other activities in game. So in no way am I worried about what will happen to my experience if people aren't "forced" to play a dungeon with me.

However, I think people often forget that there are not just two kinds of players - people who solo OR people who group. That's very simplistic. Sometimes, people do both!! Sometimes, people will decide whether they want to play alone or with friends based on a variety of factors! Sometimes, people are not playing solo because they are 100% against ever playing in a group, but because they are nervous or never had a reason to try. Many players who enjoy playing grouped content today, or have enjoyed it throughout the game's history, went from normal dungeons to vet dungeons to normal trials to vet trials only because they got encouraged to try playing a grouped dungeon. Most people don't just jump into trials. There's tons of experiences that many people would never have enjoyed if, when ESO began, it had solo versions of all the dungeons and exact equivalent rewards for those solo versions such that they never needed to consider trying the dungeon in a group.

Normal dungeons, and the older easier dungeons, are basically feeder content. Breadcrumbs.

PvP has it, that too. Rewards like unlocking certain abilities that are useful in PvE and PvP that encourage PvE players to try PvP, just a little bit.

There is nothing wrong with solo players only doing solo content if they know they hate group content. But it's bad game design to make it so all rewards can only be obtained by one kind of mode.

In my opinion, ZOS has always done a fairly decent job of encouraging its playerbase to try new things. I think it's good for the game, and, because it is an online game and it is a large community, I think it's good for the players too. (Once in a while, they go too far, and the road to a reward is simply too punishing if you truly hate the content, but even that is just my opinion.)

Therefore, when I give the opinion that solo dungeons shouldn't have the same rewards as group dungeons, I do this thinking about the overall health of the game. How players are encouraged to spread their wings. How many people might never have made it to endgame if they hadn't had a reason (AKA a unique reward) to go into a new kind of content. I am pro-carry, and pro-multiple sources for lead drops, and while I was anti-AwA I was always pro-account wide rewards (dyes, collectibles, etc.). I am pro-releasing more DLC dungeons to non-subscribers, and I always cheer when content that I paid for is released to everyone. I don't care how people "earn" their rewards. I don't care if I got something the hard way and someone got that same thing the easy way. But I do think that sometimes that giving players exactly what they think they want can impact the game in negative ways that no one considers when they're only thinking about one perspective. If solo dungeons give the same rewards as grouped dungeons, many people who might enjoy them will never try them, and some people who DO enjoy them might stop doing them simply because the solo dungeon is a more efficient way to get the rewards. You can't get trial gear as a ToT reward. You can't get PvP gear as a reward in a crafting writ. You can't get veteran purple drops in a normal level instance. This is no different. Each type of content needs rewards that make it unique.

ZOS has made some mistakes over the years. Don't we all? :P But they've done some things quite well, and having carrots so players try all the content is, in my opinion, one of them.

Syldras · January 14

peacenote wrote: »

In my opinion, ZOS has always done a fairly decent job of encouraging its playerbase to try new things. I think it's good for the game, and, because it is an online game and it is a large community, I think it's good for the players too.

I'm genuinely curious: Does the average adult person need "encouragement" to try things? It comes up on this forum all the time and it always makes me wonder whether there might be cultural differences at play here, or what ever it is?

shadyjane62 · January 14

For 11 years I have avoided all dungeons simply because you have to play with other unknown people. I am right now being harassed by another player everyday in Rimmen when I'm trying to do dailies. This person follows me relentlessly mudsinging me to the point I have to leave for another zone.

This is why I never do dungeons, because of people like this.

I might even stay in game for a chance at solo dungeons.

Muizer · January 14

AzuraFan wrote: »

This is closer to the real reason behind the "solo activities deserve no rewards" silliness. It's the, "But then nobody will play with meeeeeee," attitude. They don't care whether other players are enjoying themselves or not, because other players exist to serve their goals and their playstyle. They want solo dungeons to have crappy or no rewards so players will still be forced to do dungeons with them. Sad, really.

Or how about: "I hated having to group up myself but did it anyway to get the rewards. It's not fair if other people to get access to those rewards without going through the same ordeal". At some level it's an understandable reaction, but it's also a hindrance to making the game more enjoyable to new players.

Worse, IMHO, are the people who somehow think a previous state of the game is 'privileged', just because it existed first, elevating it to some sort of natural law that shouldn't be 'tampered' with. The ultimate reduction is something like "that is what MMO's do". As if the label somehow compels developers to follow certain rules.

Cooperharley · January 14

SwordOfSagas wrote: »

Dungeons can be done solo right now, apart for the ones that need another person for mechs.

Let's be honest here - not for the average player. That's the point of these. Also, they're not meant to be solo, so having a polished experience for solo players is what this aims at.

Blood_again · January 14

Syldras wrote: »

I'm genuinely curious: Does the average adult person need "encouragement" to try things? It comes up on this forum all the time and it always makes me wonder whether there might be cultural differences at play here, or what ever it is?

Well, it is probably an off-topic, but...
The average adult person may easily act by some patterns that form some blind spots and always-postponed artefacts.
It is especially probable in the game where you have to choose between 7-10 activities. Some of the choices are likely postponed day by day, because you always have a bigger fish to fry.
Some mechanics, like endeavors, may shift it by a limited choice or a bigger reward. Remember how many people tried their first in-game stealing during the TG week in May 2024?

As a live example of patterns. Once I visited the top of one mountain as a tourist. I've met two adult guys there, and we spoke.
One of them has been living for 30 years in a village at the foot of this mountain. His whole life. He had never gone to the top of the mountain, until his brother visited him and asked to see what's on the top.
So that was his first journey to the top, while it took less than an hour and was always a stone's throw away.
Being asked "why didn't you?" he said "Why would I? There is nothing to do here"

Anumaril · January 14

I don't see how this would lead to the destruction of the game any more than the Endless Archive would. Except that the EA is procedurally generated while I assume the solo dungeons will be custom-built just like current dungeons (probably drawing development resources away from the multiplayer dungeons we currently have).

But I seriously doubt they'd just cease developing the multiplayer dungeons altogether, and there will probably still be reward incentives to do the multiplayer ones.

frogthroat · January 14

Anumaril wrote: »

I assume the solo dungeons will be custom-built just like current dungeons (probably drawing development resources away from the multiplayer dungeons we currently have).

The solo dungeons will be just rebalanced existing group dungeons. In winter (season 2) we'll get the first solo dungeons, MHK and MoS.

Last'One · January 14

JustLovely wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

I think solo dungeons are fine as long as you can't get exactly what you can get from the vet version, like a monster helm. Keep rewards different, but less desirable/ powerful than the vet version.

So… if I want to get one monster set, I have to play with toxic players, speed runners, gatekeeping players and etc....? What if I want-to-play-the-way-I-want? Why do I have to be the target of others just to get one monster set?

If story or solo dungeons give monster helms or rewards at all it will break the game for everyone who wants to group and play group content. The solo or story mode should be the only reward for those players wanting it.

"It will break the game for everyone"?
What about all the gatekeeping people already do in Group Finder?
What about demanding parses and logs just to participate in a simple HM?
What about requiring the Hodor Reflex addon just to join a trial?
What about blocking players simply because they use Oakensoul or OneBar builds, for whatever reason?
What about kicking players from groups just because they aren’t a tank—when they just want to use a sword and shield because they’re new and still learning the game?

Solo dungeons will not break the game. You know why? Because players are already doing them.

Players are the ones who break the multiplayer experience. ZOS is the one that breaks the game’s lore and allows all of this to go out of control.

frogthroat · January 14

Last'One wrote: »

What about all the gatekeeping people already do in Group Finder?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

What about demanding parses and logs just to participate in a simple HM?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

What about requiring the Hodor Reflex addon just to join a trial?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

What about blocking players simply because they use Oakensoul or OneBar builds, for whatever reason?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

What about kicking players from groups just because they aren’t a tank—when they just want to use a sword and shield because they’re new and still learning the game?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

Solo dungeons will not break the game. You know why? Because players are already doing them.

Not a feasible solution. It's a very small minority that solos dungeons.

robwolf666 · January 14

frogthroat wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

What about all the gatekeeping people already do in Group Finder?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

What about demanding parses and logs just to participate in a simple HM?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

What about requiring the Hodor Reflex addon just to join a trial?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

What about blocking players simply because they use Oakensoul or OneBar builds, for whatever reason?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

What about kicking players from groups just because they aren’t a tank—when they just want to use a sword and shield because they’re new and still learning the game?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

Solo dungeons will not break the game. You know why? Because players are already doing them.

Not a feasible solution. It's a very small minority that solos dungeons.

Kind of is relevant since it's one, or more, of the reasons people have been asking for soloable dungeons, along with experiencing the story without getting rushed or left behind by a group.

Paramedicus · January 14

Syldras wrote: »

I'm genuinely curious: Does the average adult person need "encouragement" to try things? It comes up on this forum all the time and it always makes me wonder whether there might be cultural differences at play here, or what ever it is?

Do people sometimes need external motivators? Are you not a human, or just a bit narcissistic? :>

Syldras · January 14

Blood_again wrote: »

Well, it is probably an off-topic, but...
The average adult person may easily act by some patterns that form some blind spots and always-postponed artefacts.
It is especially probable in the game where you have to choose between 7-10 activities. Some of the choices are likely postponed day by day, because you always have a bigger fish to fry.
Some mechanics, like endeavors, may shift it by a limited choice or a bigger reward. Remember how many people tried their first in-game stealing during the TG week in May 2024?
As a live example of patterns. Once I visited the top of one mountain as a tourist. I've met two adult guys there, and we spoke.
One of them has been living for 30 years in a village at the foot of this mountain. His whole life. He had never gone to the top of the mountain, until his brother visited him and asked to see what's on the top.
So that was his first journey to the top, while it took less than an hour and was always a stone's throw away.
Being asked "why didn't you?" he said "Why would I? There is nothing to do here"

So it's about people who lack curiosity? Well, the thing is that this "encouragement" becomes an annoyance for people who are curious by nature, have a lot of interests (more already than they ever would have time for), and know very well what they like and dislike. If I really want to go climbing, have made the decision to do that one day and look forward to it, I don't want people to shout at me that I should go swimming or playing golf or maybe stay at home and watch tv instead. It feels like nothing but an annoying interference, stopping me from the things I actually want to do.

Paramedicus wrote: »

Do people sometimes need external motivators? Are you not a human, or just a bit narcissistic? :>

I'm a person who walks through this world curious and with open eyes, explores things, wonders whether things interest him when he sees something new, tries things and comes to conclusions whether they're fun or not. I don't need someone to tell me: "Look! Something new! Try it!" And if I have any questions about a thing I don't understand, I can just ask people. Like in this case. Maybe indeed it's a cultural difference. Where I live, no one would disparage this way of living as "unhuman" or "narcissistic".

AzuraFan · January 14

peacenote wrote: »

Therefore, when I give the opinion that solo dungeons shouldn't have the same rewards as group dungeons, I do this thinking about the overall health of the game. How players are encouraged to spread their wings. How many people might never have made it to endgame if they hadn't had a reason (AKA a unique reward) to go into a new kind of content.

The game will be healthier if everyone can do what they want, when they want and how they want, and get rewarded for it. Rather than one segment of the community being denied appropriate rewards, while another segment gets showered with them.

Solo dungeons are also great for people who don't mind grouping but can't do so for whatever reason - playing off-hours, needing to take frequent or sudden breaks from the game, putting an entry in the group finder but getting no takers, etc.

As for people trying to group and spread their wings, that attitude reveals a bias. There is nothing inherently better about grouping to do content vs. doing content solo. You don't have solo players on here constantly suggesting that players who prefer grouping should leave that behind and do stuff solo. But there are always players who want to lead soloers to the light and show them the better way to play, thinking that all a player has to do is try grouping, and they'll leave that awful solo life behind and truly begin to live!

Newsflash: A lot of people have no interest in grouping. A lot of people have tried grouping and don't like it. Have some players grouped and discovered they like it? Sure. But a lot of players have zero interest in trying for whatever reason, and others who've tried it still don't like it. There are also players grouping right now who don't like it. They'll be happy to finally be able to stop grouping and get stuff done on their own.

I've completed all dungeons multiple times, and I've done 99.9% of that in groups. But I don't like grouping. I had no choice. Lately I've given up on dungeons because even for normal, there's just beam, and people dropping right away because they got a dungeon they don't like, or speedrunning. Grouping isn't all rainbows and bunny rabbits and the group holding hands singing kumbaya. Of course, it's possible to do stuff with friends or a guild that runs regular activities at various hours. But not everyone has that or can do it (see first paragraph above).

If you don't enjoy grouping and you want to enjoy what you're doing, you're shut out of a huge amount of repeatable content. If you don't mind grouping but you can't do it, you're shut out of a huge amount of repeatable content. If you don't like grouping but you force yourself to anyway, that's not a good gaming experience.

So no, it's not unfair to speak against players who don't want solo dungeons to have any rewards, or crap rewards, so that people who don't enjoy grouping will be forced to group. I don't understand players who want to deny other players rewards and the opportunity to complete content in a way they enjoy. I really don't.

Muizer wrote: »

Or how about: "I hated having to group up myself but did it anyway to get the rewards. It's not fair if other people to get access to those rewards without going through the same ordeal". At some level it's an understandable reaction, but it's also a hindrance to making the game more enjoyable to new players.

Well, I'm that player, as I described above, and I have no problem with people getting the same rewards in solo dungeons. Why? Because I don't want another player to be forced into something they don't enjoy, like I was. It's better for the game if people can accomplish stuff in a way they enjoy.

SilverBride · January 14

Last'One wrote: »

Players are the ones who break the multiplayer experience.

No. Players are the ones who define what the multiplayer experience is for them. That may include group content, but if it doesn't nothing is broken because grouping is not a requirement. It is just the preference of some.

frogthroat · January 14

robwolf666 wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

What about all the gatekeeping people already do in Group Finder?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

What about demanding parses and logs just to participate in a simple HM?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

What about requiring the Hodor Reflex addon just to join a trial?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

What about blocking players simply because they use Oakensoul or OneBar builds, for whatever reason?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

What about kicking players from groups just because they aren’t a tank—when they just want to use a sword and shield because they’re new and still learning the game?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

Solo dungeons will not break the game. You know why? Because players are already doing them.

Not a feasible solution. It's a very small minority that solos dungeons.

Kind of is relevant since it's one, or more, of the reasons people have been asking for soloable dungeons, along with experiencing the story without getting rushed or left behind by a group.

At first I also thought solo mode and story mode are used interchangeably, but no, those are apparently going to be two different things. And yeah, speedrunners ruin dungeon stories and the story mode is going to be a solution for this.

Solo mode, however, is different. They are rebalancing MHK and MoS at the moment for the solo experience. And yeah, people do want solo mode for, among other things, because of the reasons Last'One wrote. However, Last'One is not agreeing with JustLovely nicely providing reasons why solo mode is needed. Last'One is doing their "dungeons are already broken because other players don't want to play with me" complaint they do every time dungeons are mentioned. Relevant to the topic or not, doesn't matter, you can trust Last'One is there to complain about other players.

But yeah, I agree with JustLovely that the rewards need to be carefully considered. I solo dungeons and if I can farm new dungeons solo, you won't see me in dungeons with pugs. Currently I farm as a tank or dps-tank, but even if there would be a "reset instance" button somewhere I would mostly farm as solo. And if I can have a faster solo instance and can queue up again right after finishing, no way I would farm with pugs. So yeah, if you get all the same rewards as in group mode, many players would never queue with pugs again. Me included.

Last'One · January 14

frogthroat wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

What about all the gatekeeping people already do in Group Finder?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

What about demanding parses and logs just to participate in a simple HM?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

What about requiring the Hodor Reflex addon just to join a trial?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

What about blocking players simply because they use Oakensoul or OneBar builds, for whatever reason?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

What about kicking players from groups just because they aren’t a tank—when they just want to use a sword and shield because they’re new and still learning the game?

Not relevant to the topic.

Last'One wrote: »

Solo dungeons will not break the game. You know why? Because players are already doing them.

Not a feasible solution. It's a very small minority that solos dungeons.

I can post a lot more reasons why "Solo Dungeons will NOT kill the MMO" and why solo dungeons will, in fact, help players avoid all the toxicity that players themselves created. My reply fits 100% within the topic. Yours doesn’t.

AzuraFan · January 14

frogthroat wrote: »

But yeah, I agree with JustLovely that the rewards need to be carefully considered. I solo dungeons and if I can farm new dungeons solo, you won't see me in dungeons with pugs. Currently I farm as a tank or dps-tank, but even if there would be a "reset instance" button somewhere I would mostly farm as solo. And if I can have a faster solo instance and can queue up again right after finishing, no way I would farm with pugs. So yeah, if you get all the same rewards as in group mode, many players would never queue with pugs again. Me included.

I don't care if sets don't drop in solo mode (though the argument against monster masks is null and void, given you can buy them). But if I can't get lorebooks and leads, and achievements that are near impossible to do with a pug, solo mode will be useless to me. I won't group with pugs. Been there, done that, and leads in dungeons are especially miserable because you might have to do a dungeon 50 times.

I could be wrong about this, but I think most people pug to farm sets, for transmutes, or for leads. So I'd be on board with not dropping set pieces or awarding transmutes. Leads are different - antiquities should have been accomplishable solo from the beginning, IMO, and given that you might have to run a dungeon a whack load of times to get a drop, I really think they should drop in solo mode. As for achievements, there are some that are not doable with the state of pugs today and need to be doable in solo mode.

frogthroat · January 14

AzuraFan wrote: »

(though the argument against monster masks is null and void, given you can buy them)

You need to wait for the correct one, and then they cost you 100k each. To buy a specific monster set full, you will need months of time to wait when the correct set is available and spend 600k gold. Two sets full would be 1.2kk gold. That is hardly nulling and voiding getting them from the dungeon. The 100k for each piece will start to add up if you are serious about filling your sticker book.

AzuraFan wrote: »

But if I can't get lorebooks and leads, and achievements that are near impossible to do with a pug, solo mode will be useless to me.

Besides the dungeon quest, that is what I would be thinking, too. Leads, lorebooks and RP-achievements. And maybe some new, unique achievements just for solo.

AzuraFan wrote: »

I could be wrong about this, but I think most people pug to farm sets, for transmutes, or for leads. So I'd be on board with not dropping set pieces or awarding transmutes.

I, for one, go with pugs pretty much only because of these reasons. If I can get those solo, I would not pug. Ever. You hit the nail on the head with this one.

AzuraFan wrote: »

Leads are different - antiquities should have been accomplishable solo from the beginning, IMO, and given that you might have to run a dungeon a whack load of times to get a drop, I really think they should drop in solo mode.

I agree.

AzuraFan wrote: »

As for achievements, there are some that are not doable with the state of pugs today and need to be doable in solo mode.

Obviously the group difficulty achievements (veteran completion, HM, speedrun, no death, trifecta) need to remain only in group mode. If solo mode has difficulty levels (which it will have) they need to be separate achievements. Otherwise the group achievements mean nothing. But yeah, most dungeons have plenty of RP-achievements, and even the slayer achievements should be possible in veteran solo mode.