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Cyrodiil Healing Nerf!!
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MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭Teeba_Shei wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?
Debatable on those claims, you and I simply dont have the numbers to even prove that or disprove that. Pointless bringing it up.
Popularity does not equate to performance. Even if you could prove that pvp popularity was better after and flourished following (which we all know it hasn't or we wouldn't be talking about performance for the past 10+ years)
The arguments is reducing part of a known numerical performance problem by an exponential amount while hardly affecting average player experience instead of adding to it with a blanket "fix" that doesn't even hit their intended target.
It isn't debatable you can use sources from platforms that release numbers which are representative of the larger population, at least on PC. Popularity doesn't equate to performance but then you have to show how HoTs and DoTs that are sticky(the ones contributing to the nerf) are the ones causing these issues moreso than others which they have never shown. I have watched groups of 12 fight other groups of 12 open field within the last 2 months and there is no lag at all during those. The lag has only ever existed when giant groups of people sit around fighting, rezzing each other, rezzing at camps, and continuing the fight for a long period of time, or groups of 50 people are in one area like volendrung or emp keeps.
If you are talking about steamcharts.....yeah thats for steam ESO early on was primarily sold through TESO's website. Again you do not have numbers.......even if we did we dont have the PVP population trends to even continue this line of debate on the PVP issues across time.
I did already show how hots contribute to more calculations, its simple math.
X = number of players
Y = number of hots
Assume both X and Y are the same value greater than 0.
Nonstacking is X*Y
Stacking is X*X*Y
There is no possible scenario mathematically where stacking is better than nonstacking in terms of calculations.
Just because there are more calculations doesn't mean its the primary contributor to lag. Can you prove that somehow?
That logic is not needed and hasnt worked for years. There is no primary contributor......if there was zos would have been able to flip that switch a long time ago.
Just because a ship is sinking with 100 holes doesnt mean you should only patch one hole. Assuming there is only one hole is a terrible and dangerous line of thinking.I only use insightful3 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭MincMincMinc wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?
Debatable on those claims, you and I simply dont have the numbers to even prove that or disprove that. Pointless bringing it up.
Popularity does not equate to performance. Even if you could prove that pvp popularity was better after and flourished following (which we all know it hasn't or we wouldn't be talking about performance for the past 10+ years)
The arguments is reducing part of a known numerical performance problem by an exponential amount while hardly affecting average player experience instead of adding to it with a blanket "fix" that doesn't even hit their intended target.
It isn't debatable you can use sources from platforms that release numbers which are representative of the larger population, at least on PC. Popularity doesn't equate to performance but then you have to show how HoTs and DoTs that are sticky(the ones contributing to the nerf) are the ones causing these issues moreso than others which they have never shown. I have watched groups of 12 fight other groups of 12 open field within the last 2 months and there is no lag at all during those. The lag has only ever existed when giant groups of people sit around fighting, rezzing each other, rezzing at camps, and continuing the fight for a long period of time, or groups of 50 people are in one area like volendrung or emp keeps.
If you are talking about steamcharts.....yeah thats for steam ESO early on was primarily sold through TESO's website. Again you do not have numbers.......even if we did we dont have the PVP population trends to even continue this line of debate on the PVP issues across time.
I did already show how hots contribute to more calculations, its simple math.
X = number of players
Y = number of hots
Assume both X and Y are the same value greater than 0.
Nonstacking is X*Y
Stacking is X*X*Y
There is no possible scenario mathematically where stacking is better than nonstacking in terms of calculations.
Just because there are more calculations doesn't mean its the primary contributor to lag. Can you prove that somehow?
That logic is not needed and hasnt worked for years. There is no primary contributor......if there was zos would have been able to flip that switch a long time ago.
Just because a ship is sinking with 100 holes doesnt mean you should only patch one hole. Assuming there is only one hole is a terrible and dangerous line of thinking.
The ship analogy breaks down because calculations aren’t “holes” — they’re baseline server work. The question is whether some calculations (like healing) scale poorly or dominate load, not whether calculations exist at all.
Proposing massive system-wide changes to fix what’s supposedly a “tiny hole” is contradictory. If the impact is that small, sweeping redesigns wouldn’t be justified.
It’s like arguing there’s no serious issue while advocating to chop off an arm to cure a rash: the scale of the proposed fix doesn’t match the claimed severity of the problem.Edited by Teeba_Shei on January 13, 2026 3:28PM1 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
✭There are also pseudo-hot effects like Cauterize ticking every 3sec that get coded as "direct" rather than "over time" so I guess groups can still stack 12x Cauterize without penalty?PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP0 -
LarsS✭✭✭✭✭Of course it will impact all players, but design groups where all are expected to keep upp echoing vigor all the time will be harder hit than inexperineced players.
To get more people into cyro the power gap must be reduced and we need more people to keep cyro alive.GM for The Daggerfall Authority EU PC0 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭✭Of course it will impact all players, but design groups where all are expected to keep upp echoing vigor all the time will be harder hit than inexperineced players.
To get more people into cyro the power gap must be reduced and we need more people to keep cyro alive.
AD que was over 80 within the last week, we don't need more people, and if we do, the way to get more isn't by nerfing experienced players just so bad new players can do well against them.Edited by Artisian0001 on January 13, 2026 3:37PM0 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?
Debatable on those claims, you and I simply dont have the numbers to even prove that or disprove that. Pointless bringing it up.
Popularity does not equate to performance. Even if you could prove that pvp popularity was better after and flourished following (which we all know it hasn't or we wouldn't be talking about performance for the past 10+ years)
The arguments is reducing part of a known numerical performance problem by an exponential amount while hardly affecting average player experience instead of adding to it with a blanket "fix" that doesn't even hit their intended target.
It isn't debatable you can use sources from platforms that release numbers which are representative of the larger population, at least on PC. Popularity doesn't equate to performance but then you have to show how HoTs and DoTs that are sticky(the ones contributing to the nerf) are the ones causing these issues moreso than others which they have never shown. I have watched groups of 12 fight other groups of 12 open field within the last 2 months and there is no lag at all during those. The lag has only ever existed when giant groups of people sit around fighting, rezzing each other, rezzing at camps, and continuing the fight for a long period of time, or groups of 50 people are in one area like volendrung or emp keeps.
If you are talking about steamcharts.....yeah thats for steam ESO early on was primarily sold through TESO's website. Again you do not have numbers.......even if we did we dont have the PVP population trends to even continue this line of debate on the PVP issues across time.
I did already show how hots contribute to more calculations, its simple math.
X = number of players
Y = number of hots
Assume both X and Y are the same value greater than 0.
Nonstacking is X*Y
Stacking is X*X*Y
There is no possible scenario mathematically where stacking is better than nonstacking in terms of calculations.
Sure, if you want to minimalize it to that, but then you could say the same about everything? All players should have one skill and one piece of gear on. Like, what is this argument? Look for the actual source of the issue, not the .0001% increase in latency you'd get. Give me some actual numbers on how much it contributed, realistically you have no idea. I know for a fact a 12 man ballgroup with 24 or more sticky HoTs can fight another 12 man ballgroup with the exact same thing and not lag at all. What is your argument?
Again you are saying we should only implement a single solution to patch a hole in a sinking ship. Assuming there is only one hole while demanding no clear action is ever taken that proves it patches the one hole is flawed logic. If there are two holes sinking the ship now you would have wasted tons of time letting water in when action could have taken place. This logic is exactly how the upper brass at companies works. Oh pvp isnt working, well whats the fix......oh there isnt a clear switch to flip?......Well lets focus on PvE
Be realistic here we are users, none of us have or can get server data to back our claims. Using that as your counterargument is a weak last resort.
Saying you saw an anecdotal fight one time between 24 people and the server didn't lag does nothing to counter argue that we should take steps to get us back to a 900 player server population.
The only counterargument really viable against the no stacking hots/dots is that some users in niche scenarios will overlap effects. Even then chances are you may only overlap a portion of the uptime anyways. Again why the only con is very slight niche scenarios where two players may have the same skill and be in such an isolated combat scenario where they even notice the lack of heals. In large zerg v zerg combat most people wouldnt even notice. With so many clear benefits to the change and this one minuscule negative why even be against it?I only use insightful2 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭There are also pseudo-hot effects like Cauterize ticking every 3sec that get coded as "direct" rather than "over time" so I guess groups can still stack 12x Cauterize without penalty?
Strangely this counts as a sticky hot, but only on yourself. If 12 people are standing near you with this on then healing isn't reduced. If I'm solo with polar wind, resolving vigor, and cauterize on then I can reduce my own healing. This nerf is just trying to target healing in general, not necessarily ball groups. It is extremely easy to get this healing reduction even while solo.
Reactive healing abilities like living dark and living vines don't count as sticky hots even though they function that way.Edited by Teeba_Shei on January 13, 2026 3:44PM0 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?
Debatable on those claims, you and I simply dont have the numbers to even prove that or disprove that. Pointless bringing it up.
Popularity does not equate to performance. Even if you could prove that pvp popularity was better after and flourished following (which we all know it hasn't or we wouldn't be talking about performance for the past 10+ years)
The arguments is reducing part of a known numerical performance problem by an exponential amount while hardly affecting average player experience instead of adding to it with a blanket "fix" that doesn't even hit their intended target.
It isn't debatable you can use sources from platforms that release numbers which are representative of the larger population, at least on PC. Popularity doesn't equate to performance but then you have to show how HoTs and DoTs that are sticky(the ones contributing to the nerf) are the ones causing these issues moreso than others which they have never shown. I have watched groups of 12 fight other groups of 12 open field within the last 2 months and there is no lag at all during those. The lag has only ever existed when giant groups of people sit around fighting, rezzing each other, rezzing at camps, and continuing the fight for a long period of time, or groups of 50 people are in one area like volendrung or emp keeps.
If you are talking about steamcharts.....yeah thats for steam ESO early on was primarily sold through TESO's website. Again you do not have numbers.......even if we did we dont have the PVP population trends to even continue this line of debate on the PVP issues across time.
I did already show how hots contribute to more calculations, its simple math.
X = number of players
Y = number of hots
Assume both X and Y are the same value greater than 0.
Nonstacking is X*Y
Stacking is X*X*Y
There is no possible scenario mathematically where stacking is better than nonstacking in terms of calculations.
Sure, if you want to minimalize it to that, but then you could say the same about everything? All players should have one skill and one piece of gear on. Like, what is this argument? Look for the actual source of the issue, not the .0001% increase in latency you'd get. Give me some actual numbers on how much it contributed, realistically you have no idea. I know for a fact a 12 man ballgroup with 24 or more sticky HoTs can fight another 12 man ballgroup with the exact same thing and not lag at all. What is your argument?
Again you are saying we should only implement a single solution to patch a hole in a sinking ship. Assuming there is only one hole while demanding no clear action is ever taken that proves it patches the one hole is flawed logic. If there are two holes sinking the ship now you would have wasted tons of time letting water in when action could have taken place. This logic is exactly how the upper brass at companies works. Oh pvp isnt working, well whats the fix......oh there isnt a clear switch to flip?......Well lets focus on PvE
Be realistic here we are users, none of us have or can get server data to back our claims. Using that as your counterargument is a weak last resort.
Saying you saw an anecdotal fight one time between 24 people and the server didn't lag does nothing to counter argue that we should take steps to get us back to a 900 player server population.
The only counterargument really viable against the no stacking hots/dots is that some users in niche scenarios will overlap effects. Even then chances are you may only overlap a portion of the uptime anyways. Again why the only con is very slight niche scenarios where two players may have the same skill and be in such an isolated combat scenario where they even notice the lack of heals. In large zerg v zerg combat most people wouldnt even notice. With so many clear benefits to the change and this one minuscule negative why even be against it?
You aren't responding to anything I am saying and you are making up random arguments for things I haven't said. I did not say there is only one issue, but the burden of proof is on you, do you not realize that? I'm not saying there is one issue that if fixed will fix latency issues (there may be, I don't think so but it's not impossible) my point is there are bigger issues to latency than removing STICKY HoTs and DoTs, and my anecdote is better than your nothing? It also isn't a single anecdote, there are multiple instances of this happening and people do it on streams. If these giant groups that run more sticky HoTs than any other groups can do it without experiencing lag why would limiting it do anything big for performance?
You again aren't even engaging with what I'm saying when you say "counter argue that we should take steps to get us back to a 900 player server population." What are you even saying and who are you even talking to? Engage with the first point I made please. Try actually reading what I'm saying. Why don't we just make it so people only light attack like what was mainly going on in early cyro when population was high? Surely this would fix the issue, why aren't we doing this?0 -
LarsS✭✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »Of course it will impact all players, but design groups where all are expected to keep upp echoing vigor all the time will be harder hit than inexperineced players.
To get more people into cyro the power gap must be reduced and we need more people to keep cyro alive.
AD que was over 80 within the last week, we don't need more people, and if we do, the way to get more isn't by nerfing experienced players just so bad new players can do well against them.
So how may populated campaign do you have on your server? I far as I know we are down to 1 one on PC NA and PC EU. On PC EU even GH has 1 or 2 bars most of the time. If you have been around for some time it should be obvious that the population is slowly declining and that few new players stay on cyro pvp.GM for The Daggerfall Authority EU PC1 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Danse_Mayhem wrote: »HAHA I kinda love this.. healing has been insane for a while.
Seriously though I agree with the many people saying this can and will likely backfire.
Large groups / ball groups (the problem) are just gonna spec further into healing. 50% heal reduction on a pretty stacked ball group that are cross healing each other won’t really stop them.
It’s the smaller groups that will suffer here - They will be punished for catching random heals from other players in cyrodil.
My suggestions;
- Make all heals scale with group size. If you want a bigger group, and access to each others buffs etc, then it comes at a cost of healing debuff (which can be built back up with the right specs)
- Nerf the strength of healing soul and remove major vitality. Yeah don’t come at me on this one, we ALL use it, and a universal skill that ANYONE can slap on ANY build shouldn’t be hands down the strongest burst heal in the game. Adjusting this would actually have people even rethinking their subclassing choices to access healing, and would promote some variety along with balance.
If you really must go live with this, just remove all cross healing completely. No one outside of your group can heal or buff you. Not sure I like that direction but you need to commit to one thing or another
The pts version here will be bad for the game
Adding extra bookkeeping and overhead like this will only further drag down performance.
Just limit players to one copy of a given morph and call it a day.
This is an awful suggestion, but still somehow better than what is on the PTS.
Edit: I agree that performance would be screwed by this though.
How so?
You would land with 3 possible HoTs from Regen instead of 12, and only one active Echoing Vigor.
Regeneration
Rapid Regeneration
Radiating Regeneration
Smaller groups not being able to have 3 echoing on them or something is a huge hit to a 3-4 man group. Smaller groups still suffer the most from this.
I almost never see groups with less than 5 players use echoing over resolving vigor, a group of 3 can and usually will use resolving over echoing vigor and do fine.
„Smaller groups“ healstacking 5 echoing vigor are just a smaller version of big groups stacking 12 echoing vigor and deserve to get nerfed just like them.
5 echoing vigor are almost twice the healing of 1 resolving vigor with much longer duration so they are up 100% of the time while casting resolving vigor every 5 seconds is unrealistic.
Even after 50% reduction HPS on every player is almost as much as resolving vigor with 30% of the casts and ressoursses spend.
Of course you don't see groups of 3 running it, it makes no sense mathematically to run echoing in a group that size, it heals for less. If you knew this, rather than just trying to push your own narrative where you equate a 5 man to deserving the same nerf as a 12 man, you'd know that 5 echoing vigor isn't close to 2 resolving, because 3 echoing is less than 1 resolving. You would then by that logic know that 6 is also less than 2 and that you'd want 7 echoing to beat 2 resolving. Now, regardless of the fact that you don't actually care to address any of this and just hate the fact that big groups beat small groups, which is just logically what should happen given all other things equal, it makes zero sense to nerf a smaller group the same as a larger group. Why? Well, if you are playing solo why do you not also receive this nerf? Oh because it would be unfair correct? Okay, then at what random arbitrary metric do you decide that every group should be nerfed the same as a 12 man or even 2 12 man groups running together in tandem? No logic behind this, even if I ignore your lack of understanding the math.
3 echoing vigor is minimally less healing per second per player than 1 resolving vigor but the same healing per player per cast. Only because you can cast vigor every 5 seconds and get the same healing doesnt mean it is practical, having to cast vigor every 5 seconds cost over 3 times as many ressoursses and global cooldowns as casting every 16 seconds and heavily disrupts everything you do while casting echoing once every 16 seconds is just another buff to refresh. Reason I wouldnt use echoing vigor in trio is that when 1 player forgets to cast or disconnects or goes afk or offline or runs off your group has not 3 echoing vigor anymore.
With a group of 5 you have backup but with a group of 3 you dont.
There is no precise definition of almost or close so claiming 5 echoing isnt almost as much HPS as 2 resolving and that I dont know mathematics because 6 echoing is minimally less than 1 resolving is nonsense.
5 echoing vigor recastet every 16 seconds is higher healing than 2 resolving vigor recastet every 6,4 seconds which is more often than you realistically recast resolving vigor (which is still more often than you would have to recast echoing).
That groups stacking 5 echoing vigor deserving nerf just like groups 12 groups stacking 12 echoing vigor doesnt mean they both have to get nerfed by same percentage but just in the same way for the same reason. That could also be done by just not appliyng more than X heals making 5man get same healing per player as ballgroup.
Nobody is asking to make groups weaker than soloplayers as even without making aoe heals scaling with number of players they hit X*Y players can make X*Y times as many kills and require X*Y times as many killing blows to kill as Y players but giving players in group a HoT instance from every teammember turns strength increase from linear to quadratical function and artificially dimishes the chance of outnumbered players more than they would naturally be.
It is contradictory you now complain about solo players not receiving this nerf when you claimed before this nerf would nerf solo players more than ballgroups.PC EU2 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Danse_Mayhem wrote: »HAHA I kinda love this.. healing has been insane for a while.
Seriously though I agree with the many people saying this can and will likely backfire.
Large groups / ball groups (the problem) are just gonna spec further into healing. 50% heal reduction on a pretty stacked ball group that are cross healing each other won’t really stop them.
It’s the smaller groups that will suffer here - They will be punished for catching random heals from other players in cyrodil.
My suggestions;
- Make all heals scale with group size. If you want a bigger group, and access to each others buffs etc, then it comes at a cost of healing debuff (which can be built back up with the right specs)
- Nerf the strength of healing soul and remove major vitality. Yeah don’t come at me on this one, we ALL use it, and a universal skill that ANYONE can slap on ANY build shouldn’t be hands down the strongest burst heal in the game. Adjusting this would actually have people even rethinking their subclassing choices to access healing, and would promote some variety along with balance.
If you really must go live with this, just remove all cross healing completely. No one outside of your group can heal or buff you. Not sure I like that direction but you need to commit to one thing or another
The pts version here will be bad for the game
Adding extra bookkeeping and overhead like this will only further drag down performance.
Just limit players to one copy of a given morph and call it a day.
This is an awful suggestion, but still somehow better than what is on the PTS.
Edit: I agree that performance would be screwed by this though.
How so?
You would land with 3 possible HoTs from Regen instead of 12, and only one active Echoing Vigor.
Regeneration
Rapid Regeneration
Radiating Regeneration
Smaller groups not being able to have 3 echoing on them or something is a huge hit to a 3-4 man group. Smaller groups still suffer the most from this.
I almost never see groups with less than 5 players use echoing over resolving vigor, a group of 3 can and usually will use resolving over echoing vigor and do fine.
„Smaller groups“ healstacking 5 echoing vigor are just a smaller version of big groups stacking 12 echoing vigor and deserve to get nerfed just like them.
5 echoing vigor are almost twice the healing of 1 resolving vigor with much longer duration so they are up 100% of the time while casting resolving vigor every 5 seconds is unrealistic.
Even after 50% reduction HPS on every player is almost as much as resolving vigor with 30% of the casts and ressoursses spend.
Of course you don't see groups of 3 running it, it makes no sense mathematically to run echoing in a group that size, it heals for less. If you knew this, rather than just trying to push your own narrative where you equate a 5 man to deserving the same nerf as a 12 man, you'd know that 5 echoing vigor isn't close to 2 resolving, because 3 echoing is less than 1 resolving. You would then by that logic know that 6 is also less than 2 and that you'd want 7 echoing to beat 2 resolving. Now, regardless of the fact that you don't actually care to address any of this and just hate the fact that big groups beat small groups, which is just logically what should happen given all other things equal, it makes zero sense to nerf a smaller group the same as a larger group. Why? Well, if you are playing solo why do you not also receive this nerf? Oh because it would be unfair correct? Okay, then at what random arbitrary metric do you decide that every group should be nerfed the same as a 12 man or even 2 12 man groups running together in tandem? No logic behind this, even if I ignore your lack of understanding the math.
3 echoing vigor is minimally less healing per second per player than 1 resolving vigor but the same healing per player per cast. Only because you can cast vigor every 5 seconds and get the same healing doesnt mean it is practical, having to cast vigor every 5 seconds cost over 3 times as many ressoursses and global cooldowns as casting every 16 seconds and heavily disrupts everything you do while casting echoing once every 16 seconds is just another buff to refresh. Reason I wouldnt use echoing vigor in trio is that when 1 player forgets to cast or disconnects or goes afk or offline or runs off your group has not 3 echoing vigor anymore.
With a group of 5 you have backup but with a group of 3 you dont.
There is no precise definition of almost or close so claiming 5 echoing isnt almost as much HPS as 2 resolving and that I dont know mathematics because 6 echoing is minimally less than 1 resolving is nonsense.
5 echoing vigor recastet every 16 seconds is higher healing than 2 resolving vigor recastet every 6,4 seconds which is more often than you realistically recast resolving vigor (which is still more often than you would have to recast echoing).
That groups stacking 5 echoing vigor deserving nerf just like groups 12 groups stacking 12 echoing vigor doesnt mean they both have to get nerfed by same percentage but just in the same way for the same reason. That could also be done by just not appliyng more than X heals making 5man get same healing per player as ballgroup.
Nobody is asking to make groups weaker than soloplayers as even without making aoe heals scaling with number of players they hit X*Y players can make X*Y times as many kills and require X*Y times as many killing blows to kill as Y players but giving players in group a HoT instance from every teammember turns strength increase from linear to quadratical function and artificially dimishes the chance of outnumbered players more than they would naturally be.
It is contradictory you now complain about solo players not receiving this nerf when you claimed before this nerf would nerf solo players more than ballgroups.
Okay, just to see if you are good faith, why would you use the number 5 if it's closer to 7 than it even is to 6. There is no rounding you could do to get to 5. You couldn't even round to get to 6. If you round you get 7, if you wanna say between the two that's fine. Why would you use 5 other than because you don't understand or just to try to push the point by making it more unrealistic?0 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭Teeba_Shei wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?
Debatable on those claims, you and I simply dont have the numbers to even prove that or disprove that. Pointless bringing it up.
Popularity does not equate to performance. Even if you could prove that pvp popularity was better after and flourished following (which we all know it hasn't or we wouldn't be talking about performance for the past 10+ years)
The arguments is reducing part of a known numerical performance problem by an exponential amount while hardly affecting average player experience instead of adding to it with a blanket "fix" that doesn't even hit their intended target.
It isn't debatable you can use sources from platforms that release numbers which are representative of the larger population, at least on PC. Popularity doesn't equate to performance but then you have to show how HoTs and DoTs that are sticky(the ones contributing to the nerf) are the ones causing these issues moreso than others which they have never shown. I have watched groups of 12 fight other groups of 12 open field within the last 2 months and there is no lag at all during those. The lag has only ever existed when giant groups of people sit around fighting, rezzing each other, rezzing at camps, and continuing the fight for a long period of time, or groups of 50 people are in one area like volendrung or emp keeps.
If you are talking about steamcharts.....yeah thats for steam ESO early on was primarily sold through TESO's website. Again you do not have numbers.......even if we did we dont have the PVP population trends to even continue this line of debate on the PVP issues across time.
I did already show how hots contribute to more calculations, its simple math.
X = number of players
Y = number of hots
Assume both X and Y are the same value greater than 0.
Nonstacking is X*Y
Stacking is X*X*Y
There is no possible scenario mathematically where stacking is better than nonstacking in terms of calculations.
Just because there are more calculations doesn't mean its the primary contributor to lag. Can you prove that somehow?
That logic is not needed and hasnt worked for years. There is no primary contributor......if there was zos would have been able to flip that switch a long time ago.
Just because a ship is sinking with 100 holes doesnt mean you should only patch one hole. Assuming there is only one hole is a terrible and dangerous line of thinking.
The ship analogy breaks down because calculations aren’t “holes” — they’re baseline server work. The question is whether some calculations (like healing) scale poorly or dominate load, not whether calculations exist at all.
Proposing massive system-wide changes to fix what’s supposedly a “tiny hole” is contradictory. If the impact is that small, sweeping redesigns wouldn’t be justified.
It’s like arguing there’s no serious issue while advocating to chop off an arm to cure a rash: the scale of the proposed fix doesn’t match the claimed severity of the problem.
Inevitably we are seeing a cascade of calculations ballooning into the end result of server lag.- Just one GCD
- XXX# players
- Aoe hitting XX players each
- Hot doing XX ticks
- X weapon enchants per player
- X proc sets per player
- X passives
- etc, etc, etc,
Hoping that there is a simple sweeping solution is just not being realistic, zos has hoped for a simple sweeping solution for 10 years. Here are the holes of the ship, start finding low impact solutions that help reduce the possible number of processing the server has to do.
Zos already proposed doing AOE caps to limit the AoE distribution factor. Hots and dot over time effects are a very similar distribution factor since they inevitably cascade all of the following events like enchants/procs to happen. The problem is something like aoe caps fundamentally is counter to the point of AoE hitting multiple people and affects all gameplay low population to high population scenarios......However something like HOT/DOT stacking numerically highly impacts high population singularity scenarios while hardly affecting niche rare lower population gameplay experience.
How is it arguing there is no serious issue or similar to chopping off an arm, changing to no stacking effects is so low impact in average smallscale gameplay people would rarely ever notice. We know server latency is a major issue and preventing unnecessary calcs is a clear benefit in the right direction. Only zos can test for the actual numbers to make the decision.....Which they now can with the test server.I only use insightful1 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?
Debatable on those claims, you and I simply dont have the numbers to even prove that or disprove that. Pointless bringing it up.
Popularity does not equate to performance. Even if you could prove that pvp popularity was better after and flourished following (which we all know it hasn't or we wouldn't be talking about performance for the past 10+ years)
The arguments is reducing part of a known numerical performance problem by an exponential amount while hardly affecting average player experience instead of adding to it with a blanket "fix" that doesn't even hit their intended target.
It isn't debatable you can use sources from platforms that release numbers which are representative of the larger population, at least on PC. Popularity doesn't equate to performance but then you have to show how HoTs and DoTs that are sticky(the ones contributing to the nerf) are the ones causing these issues moreso than others which they have never shown. I have watched groups of 12 fight other groups of 12 open field within the last 2 months and there is no lag at all during those. The lag has only ever existed when giant groups of people sit around fighting, rezzing each other, rezzing at camps, and continuing the fight for a long period of time, or groups of 50 people are in one area like volendrung or emp keeps.
If you are talking about steamcharts.....yeah thats for steam ESO early on was primarily sold through TESO's website. Again you do not have numbers.......even if we did we dont have the PVP population trends to even continue this line of debate on the PVP issues across time.
I did already show how hots contribute to more calculations, its simple math.
X = number of players
Y = number of hots
Assume both X and Y are the same value greater than 0.
Nonstacking is X*Y
Stacking is X*X*Y
There is no possible scenario mathematically where stacking is better than nonstacking in terms of calculations.
Sure, if you want to minimalize it to that, but then you could say the same about everything? All players should have one skill and one piece of gear on. Like, what is this argument? Look for the actual source of the issue, not the .0001% increase in latency you'd get. Give me some actual numbers on how much it contributed, realistically you have no idea. I know for a fact a 12 man ballgroup with 24 or more sticky HoTs can fight another 12 man ballgroup with the exact same thing and not lag at all. What is your argument?
Again you are saying we should only implement a single solution to patch a hole in a sinking ship. Assuming there is only one hole while demanding no clear action is ever taken that proves it patches the one hole is flawed logic. If there are two holes sinking the ship now you would have wasted tons of time letting water in when action could have taken place. This logic is exactly how the upper brass at companies works. Oh pvp isnt working, well whats the fix......oh there isnt a clear switch to flip?......Well lets focus on PvE
Be realistic here we are users, none of us have or can get server data to back our claims. Using that as your counterargument is a weak last resort.
Saying you saw an anecdotal fight one time between 24 people and the server didn't lag does nothing to counter argue that we should take steps to get us back to a 900 player server population.
The only counterargument really viable against the no stacking hots/dots is that some users in niche scenarios will overlap effects. Even then chances are you may only overlap a portion of the uptime anyways. Again why the only con is very slight niche scenarios where two players may have the same skill and be in such an isolated combat scenario where they even notice the lack of heals. In large zerg v zerg combat most people wouldnt even notice. With so many clear benefits to the change and this one minuscule negative why even be against it?
You aren't responding to anything I am saying and you are making up random arguments for things I haven't said. I did not say there is only one issue, but the burden of proof is on you, do you not realize that? I'm not saying there is one issue that if fixed will fix latency issues (there may be, I don't think so but it's not impossible) my point is there are bigger issues to latency than removing STICKY HoTs and DoTs, and my anecdote is better than your nothing? It also isn't a single anecdote, there are multiple instances of this happening and people do it on streams. If these giant groups that run more sticky HoTs than any other groups can do it without experiencing lag why would limiting it do anything big for performance?
You again aren't even engaging with what I'm saying when you say "counter argue that we should take steps to get us back to a 900 player server population." What are you even saying and who are you even talking to? Engage with the first point I made please. Try actually reading what I'm saying. Why don't we just make it so people only light attack like what was mainly going on in early cyro when population was high? Surely this would fix the issue, why aren't we doing this?
You are asking for impossible proof through server data.....nobody on the forums other than zos has this. Trying to win an argument by taking an impossible stance is not going to help you.
I have no burden of proof. I merely have to suggest a potential solution for zos to test while giving the pros and cons to the solution. The burden is on zos to go ahead and test this and decide for themselves. At some point they will have to give up on the game or begin taking smaller chunks out of the large issue.
Unlike the proposed blanket 50% heal cut that affects all levels of gameplay equally and adds more calculations for the server. My proposed no stacking effects targets only higher population density scenarios where stacking is more likely to occur and there is a benefit to do culling. This will hardly affect low population density scenarios where there are rare chances that people will ever need, stack, or overlap timers fully to ever be impacted by the culling. We also see other benefits where people now choose different morphs and build diversity is encouraged. We also see the benefit of having a system in place preventing BIS meta dots/hots/procs from ruining the game for months on end like we saw in the famous soul sloads meta or the master DW bleed change meta.Edited by MincMincMinc on January 13, 2026 4:11PMI only use insightful4 -
CameraBeardThePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You don't even really need to restrict DoTs. HoTs vastly outpace DoTs because of buff availability and the fact that you can purge DoTs. If they were to limit DoTs, DoTs would become pretty worthless without compensatory buffs.0 -
Wolfshade✭✭✭✭✭
✭Instead of Echoing they run the other morph. But yeah, by loosing over and over experiencend player like Nefas, Matt and so on since over 10 years, will grant new players to have a better experience and bring them closer to low and mid level players. In the name of performance and cosmetics.0 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?
Debatable on those claims, you and I simply dont have the numbers to even prove that or disprove that. Pointless bringing it up.
Popularity does not equate to performance. Even if you could prove that pvp popularity was better after and flourished following (which we all know it hasn't or we wouldn't be talking about performance for the past 10+ years)
The arguments is reducing part of a known numerical performance problem by an exponential amount while hardly affecting average player experience instead of adding to it with a blanket "fix" that doesn't even hit their intended target.
It isn't debatable you can use sources from platforms that release numbers which are representative of the larger population, at least on PC. Popularity doesn't equate to performance but then you have to show how HoTs and DoTs that are sticky(the ones contributing to the nerf) are the ones causing these issues moreso than others which they have never shown. I have watched groups of 12 fight other groups of 12 open field within the last 2 months and there is no lag at all during those. The lag has only ever existed when giant groups of people sit around fighting, rezzing each other, rezzing at camps, and continuing the fight for a long period of time, or groups of 50 people are in one area like volendrung or emp keeps.
If you are talking about steamcharts.....yeah thats for steam ESO early on was primarily sold through TESO's website. Again you do not have numbers.......even if we did we dont have the PVP population trends to even continue this line of debate on the PVP issues across time.
I did already show how hots contribute to more calculations, its simple math.
X = number of players
Y = number of hots
Assume both X and Y are the same value greater than 0.
Nonstacking is X*Y
Stacking is X*X*Y
There is no possible scenario mathematically where stacking is better than nonstacking in terms of calculations.
Sure, if you want to minimalize it to that, but then you could say the same about everything? All players should have one skill and one piece of gear on. Like, what is this argument? Look for the actual source of the issue, not the .0001% increase in latency you'd get. Give me some actual numbers on how much it contributed, realistically you have no idea. I know for a fact a 12 man ballgroup with 24 or more sticky HoTs can fight another 12 man ballgroup with the exact same thing and not lag at all. What is your argument?
Again you are saying we should only implement a single solution to patch a hole in a sinking ship. Assuming there is only one hole while demanding no clear action is ever taken that proves it patches the one hole is flawed logic. If there are two holes sinking the ship now you would have wasted tons of time letting water in when action could have taken place. This logic is exactly how the upper brass at companies works. Oh pvp isnt working, well whats the fix......oh there isnt a clear switch to flip?......Well lets focus on PvE
Be realistic here we are users, none of us have or can get server data to back our claims. Using that as your counterargument is a weak last resort.
Saying you saw an anecdotal fight one time between 24 people and the server didn't lag does nothing to counter argue that we should take steps to get us back to a 900 player server population.
The only counterargument really viable against the no stacking hots/dots is that some users in niche scenarios will overlap effects. Even then chances are you may only overlap a portion of the uptime anyways. Again why the only con is very slight niche scenarios where two players may have the same skill and be in such an isolated combat scenario where they even notice the lack of heals. In large zerg v zerg combat most people wouldnt even notice. With so many clear benefits to the change and this one minuscule negative why even be against it?
You aren't responding to anything I am saying and you are making up random arguments for things I haven't said. I did not say there is only one issue, but the burden of proof is on you, do you not realize that? I'm not saying there is one issue that if fixed will fix latency issues (there may be, I don't think so but it's not impossible) my point is there are bigger issues to latency than removing STICKY HoTs and DoTs, and my anecdote is better than your nothing? It also isn't a single anecdote, there are multiple instances of this happening and people do it on streams. If these giant groups that run more sticky HoTs than any other groups can do it without experiencing lag why would limiting it do anything big for performance?
You again aren't even engaging with what I'm saying when you say "counter argue that we should take steps to get us back to a 900 player server population." What are you even saying and who are you even talking to? Engage with the first point I made please. Try actually reading what I'm saying. Why don't we just make it so people only light attack like what was mainly going on in early cyro when population was high? Surely this would fix the issue, why aren't we doing this?
You are asking for impossible proof through server data.....nobody on the forums other than zos has this. Trying to win an argument by taking an impossible stance is not going to help you.
I have no burden of proof. I merely have to suggest a potential solution for zos to test while giving the pros and cons to the solution. The burden is on zos to go ahead and test this and decide for themselves. At some point they will have to give up on the game or begin taking smaller chunks out of the large issue.
Unlike the proposed blanket 50% heal cut that affects all levels of gameplay equally and adds more calculations for the server. My proposed no stacking effects targets only higher population density scenarios where stacking is more likely to occur and there is a benefit to do culling. This will hardly affect low population density scenarios where there are rare chances that people will ever need, stack, or overlap timers fully to ever be impacted by the culling. We also see other benefits where people now choose different morphs and build diversity is encouraged. We also see the benefit of having a system in place preventing BIS meta dots/hots/procs from ruining the game for months on end like we saw in the famous soul sloads meta or the master DW bleed change meta.
" Why don't we just make it so people only light attack like what was mainly going on in early cyro when population was high? Surely this would fix the issue, why aren't we doing this?"1 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?
Debatable on those claims, you and I simply dont have the numbers to even prove that or disprove that. Pointless bringing it up.
Popularity does not equate to performance. Even if you could prove that pvp popularity was better after and flourished following (which we all know it hasn't or we wouldn't be talking about performance for the past 10+ years)
The arguments is reducing part of a known numerical performance problem by an exponential amount while hardly affecting average player experience instead of adding to it with a blanket "fix" that doesn't even hit their intended target.
It isn't debatable you can use sources from platforms that release numbers which are representative of the larger population, at least on PC. Popularity doesn't equate to performance but then you have to show how HoTs and DoTs that are sticky(the ones contributing to the nerf) are the ones causing these issues moreso than others which they have never shown. I have watched groups of 12 fight other groups of 12 open field within the last 2 months and there is no lag at all during those. The lag has only ever existed when giant groups of people sit around fighting, rezzing each other, rezzing at camps, and continuing the fight for a long period of time, or groups of 50 people are in one area like volendrung or emp keeps.
If you are talking about steamcharts.....yeah thats for steam ESO early on was primarily sold through TESO's website. Again you do not have numbers.......even if we did we dont have the PVP population trends to even continue this line of debate on the PVP issues across time.
I did already show how hots contribute to more calculations, its simple math.
X = number of players
Y = number of hots
Assume both X and Y are the same value greater than 0.
Nonstacking is X*Y
Stacking is X*X*Y
There is no possible scenario mathematically where stacking is better than nonstacking in terms of calculations.
Sure, if you want to minimalize it to that, but then you could say the same about everything? All players should have one skill and one piece of gear on. Like, what is this argument? Look for the actual source of the issue, not the .0001% increase in latency you'd get. Give me some actual numbers on how much it contributed, realistically you have no idea. I know for a fact a 12 man ballgroup with 24 or more sticky HoTs can fight another 12 man ballgroup with the exact same thing and not lag at all. What is your argument?
Again you are saying we should only implement a single solution to patch a hole in a sinking ship. Assuming there is only one hole while demanding no clear action is ever taken that proves it patches the one hole is flawed logic. If there are two holes sinking the ship now you would have wasted tons of time letting water in when action could have taken place. This logic is exactly how the upper brass at companies works. Oh pvp isnt working, well whats the fix......oh there isnt a clear switch to flip?......Well lets focus on PvE
Be realistic here we are users, none of us have or can get server data to back our claims. Using that as your counterargument is a weak last resort.
Saying you saw an anecdotal fight one time between 24 people and the server didn't lag does nothing to counter argue that we should take steps to get us back to a 900 player server population.
The only counterargument really viable against the no stacking hots/dots is that some users in niche scenarios will overlap effects. Even then chances are you may only overlap a portion of the uptime anyways. Again why the only con is very slight niche scenarios where two players may have the same skill and be in such an isolated combat scenario where they even notice the lack of heals. In large zerg v zerg combat most people wouldnt even notice. With so many clear benefits to the change and this one minuscule negative why even be against it?
You aren't responding to anything I am saying and you are making up random arguments for things I haven't said. I did not say there is only one issue, but the burden of proof is on you, do you not realize that? I'm not saying there is one issue that if fixed will fix latency issues (there may be, I don't think so but it's not impossible) my point is there are bigger issues to latency than removing STICKY HoTs and DoTs, and my anecdote is better than your nothing? It also isn't a single anecdote, there are multiple instances of this happening and people do it on streams. If these giant groups that run more sticky HoTs than any other groups can do it without experiencing lag why would limiting it do anything big for performance?
You again aren't even engaging with what I'm saying when you say "counter argue that we should take steps to get us back to a 900 player server population." What are you even saying and who are you even talking to? Engage with the first point I made please. Try actually reading what I'm saying. Why don't we just make it so people only light attack like what was mainly going on in early cyro when population was high? Surely this would fix the issue, why aren't we doing this?
You are asking for impossible proof through server data.....nobody on the forums other than zos has this. Trying to win an argument by taking an impossible stance is not going to help you.
I have no burden of proof. I merely have to suggest a potential solution for zos to test while giving the pros and cons to the solution. The burden is on zos to go ahead and test this and decide for themselves. At some point they will have to give up on the game or begin taking smaller chunks out of the large issue.
Unlike the proposed blanket 50% heal cut that affects all levels of gameplay equally and adds more calculations for the server. My proposed no stacking effects targets only higher population density scenarios where stacking is more likely to occur and there is a benefit to do culling. This will hardly affect low population density scenarios where there are rare chances that people will ever need, stack, or overlap timers fully to ever be impacted by the culling. We also see other benefits where people now choose different morphs and build diversity is encouraged. We also see the benefit of having a system in place preventing BIS meta dots/hots/procs from ruining the game for months on end like we saw in the famous soul sloads meta or the master DW bleed change meta.
" Why don't we just make it so people only light attack like what was mainly going on in early cyro when population was high? Surely this would fix the issue, why aren't we doing this?"
Because that would have a drastic impact on gameplay.....unlike preventing hot/dot stacking in today's modern game where there are plenty of choices for smaller combat scenarios to never perceive the culling. Culling that would mainly operate during high population density scenarios when there is no way a player can perceive their random spammed heal being culled in the blackhole of 80 people running through a breach.Edited by MincMincMinc on January 13, 2026 4:39PMI only use insightful2 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?
Debatable on those claims, you and I simply dont have the numbers to even prove that or disprove that. Pointless bringing it up.
Popularity does not equate to performance. Even if you could prove that pvp popularity was better after and flourished following (which we all know it hasn't or we wouldn't be talking about performance for the past 10+ years)
The arguments is reducing part of a known numerical performance problem by an exponential amount while hardly affecting average player experience instead of adding to it with a blanket "fix" that doesn't even hit their intended target.
It isn't debatable you can use sources from platforms that release numbers which are representative of the larger population, at least on PC. Popularity doesn't equate to performance but then you have to show how HoTs and DoTs that are sticky(the ones contributing to the nerf) are the ones causing these issues moreso than others which they have never shown. I have watched groups of 12 fight other groups of 12 open field within the last 2 months and there is no lag at all during those. The lag has only ever existed when giant groups of people sit around fighting, rezzing each other, rezzing at camps, and continuing the fight for a long period of time, or groups of 50 people are in one area like volendrung or emp keeps.
If you are talking about steamcharts.....yeah thats for steam ESO early on was primarily sold through TESO's website. Again you do not have numbers.......even if we did we dont have the PVP population trends to even continue this line of debate on the PVP issues across time.
I did already show how hots contribute to more calculations, its simple math.
X = number of players
Y = number of hots
Assume both X and Y are the same value greater than 0.
Nonstacking is X*Y
Stacking is X*X*Y
There is no possible scenario mathematically where stacking is better than nonstacking in terms of calculations.
Sure, if you want to minimalize it to that, but then you could say the same about everything? All players should have one skill and one piece of gear on. Like, what is this argument? Look for the actual source of the issue, not the .0001% increase in latency you'd get. Give me some actual numbers on how much it contributed, realistically you have no idea. I know for a fact a 12 man ballgroup with 24 or more sticky HoTs can fight another 12 man ballgroup with the exact same thing and not lag at all. What is your argument?
Again you are saying we should only implement a single solution to patch a hole in a sinking ship. Assuming there is only one hole while demanding no clear action is ever taken that proves it patches the one hole is flawed logic. If there are two holes sinking the ship now you would have wasted tons of time letting water in when action could have taken place. This logic is exactly how the upper brass at companies works. Oh pvp isnt working, well whats the fix......oh there isnt a clear switch to flip?......Well lets focus on PvE
Be realistic here we are users, none of us have or can get server data to back our claims. Using that as your counterargument is a weak last resort.
Saying you saw an anecdotal fight one time between 24 people and the server didn't lag does nothing to counter argue that we should take steps to get us back to a 900 player server population.
The only counterargument really viable against the no stacking hots/dots is that some users in niche scenarios will overlap effects. Even then chances are you may only overlap a portion of the uptime anyways. Again why the only con is very slight niche scenarios where two players may have the same skill and be in such an isolated combat scenario where they even notice the lack of heals. In large zerg v zerg combat most people wouldnt even notice. With so many clear benefits to the change and this one minuscule negative why even be against it?
You aren't responding to anything I am saying and you are making up random arguments for things I haven't said. I did not say there is only one issue, but the burden of proof is on you, do you not realize that? I'm not saying there is one issue that if fixed will fix latency issues (there may be, I don't think so but it's not impossible) my point is there are bigger issues to latency than removing STICKY HoTs and DoTs, and my anecdote is better than your nothing? It also isn't a single anecdote, there are multiple instances of this happening and people do it on streams. If these giant groups that run more sticky HoTs than any other groups can do it without experiencing lag why would limiting it do anything big for performance?
You again aren't even engaging with what I'm saying when you say "counter argue that we should take steps to get us back to a 900 player server population." What are you even saying and who are you even talking to? Engage with the first point I made please. Try actually reading what I'm saying. Why don't we just make it so people only light attack like what was mainly going on in early cyro when population was high? Surely this would fix the issue, why aren't we doing this?
You are asking for impossible proof through server data.....nobody on the forums other than zos has this. Trying to win an argument by taking an impossible stance is not going to help you.
I have no burden of proof. I merely have to suggest a potential solution for zos to test while giving the pros and cons to the solution. The burden is on zos to go ahead and test this and decide for themselves. At some point they will have to give up on the game or begin taking smaller chunks out of the large issue.
Unlike the proposed blanket 50% heal cut that affects all levels of gameplay equally and adds more calculations for the server. My proposed no stacking effects targets only higher population density scenarios where stacking is more likely to occur and there is a benefit to do culling. This will hardly affect low population density scenarios where there are rare chances that people will ever need, stack, or overlap timers fully to ever be impacted by the culling. We also see other benefits where people now choose different morphs and build diversity is encouraged. We also see the benefit of having a system in place preventing BIS meta dots/hots/procs from ruining the game for months on end like we saw in the famous soul sloads meta or the master DW bleed change meta.
" Why don't we just make it so people only light attack like what was mainly going on in early cyro when population was high? Surely this would fix the issue, why aren't we doing this?"
Because that would have a drastic impact on gameplay.....unlike preventing hot/dot stacking in today's modern game where there are plenty of choices for smaller combat scenarios to never perceive the culling. Culling that would mainly operate during high population density scenarios when there is no way a player can perceive their random spammed heal being culled in the blackhole of 80 people running through a breach.
That is also a drastic impact on gameplay to how it currently is, so your point fall flat, try a different one.1 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?
Debatable on those claims, you and I simply dont have the numbers to even prove that or disprove that. Pointless bringing it up.
Popularity does not equate to performance. Even if you could prove that pvp popularity was better after and flourished following (which we all know it hasn't or we wouldn't be talking about performance for the past 10+ years)
The arguments is reducing part of a known numerical performance problem by an exponential amount while hardly affecting average player experience instead of adding to it with a blanket "fix" that doesn't even hit their intended target.
It isn't debatable you can use sources from platforms that release numbers which are representative of the larger population, at least on PC. Popularity doesn't equate to performance but then you have to show how HoTs and DoTs that are sticky(the ones contributing to the nerf) are the ones causing these issues moreso than others which they have never shown. I have watched groups of 12 fight other groups of 12 open field within the last 2 months and there is no lag at all during those. The lag has only ever existed when giant groups of people sit around fighting, rezzing each other, rezzing at camps, and continuing the fight for a long period of time, or groups of 50 people are in one area like volendrung or emp keeps.
If you are talking about steamcharts.....yeah thats for steam ESO early on was primarily sold through TESO's website. Again you do not have numbers.......even if we did we dont have the PVP population trends to even continue this line of debate on the PVP issues across time.
I did already show how hots contribute to more calculations, its simple math.
X = number of players
Y = number of hots
Assume both X and Y are the same value greater than 0.
Nonstacking is X*Y
Stacking is X*X*Y
There is no possible scenario mathematically where stacking is better than nonstacking in terms of calculations.
Sure, if you want to minimalize it to that, but then you could say the same about everything? All players should have one skill and one piece of gear on. Like, what is this argument? Look for the actual source of the issue, not the .0001% increase in latency you'd get. Give me some actual numbers on how much it contributed, realistically you have no idea. I know for a fact a 12 man ballgroup with 24 or more sticky HoTs can fight another 12 man ballgroup with the exact same thing and not lag at all. What is your argument?
Again you are saying we should only implement a single solution to patch a hole in a sinking ship. Assuming there is only one hole while demanding no clear action is ever taken that proves it patches the one hole is flawed logic. If there are two holes sinking the ship now you would have wasted tons of time letting water in when action could have taken place. This logic is exactly how the upper brass at companies works. Oh pvp isnt working, well whats the fix......oh there isnt a clear switch to flip?......Well lets focus on PvE
Be realistic here we are users, none of us have or can get server data to back our claims. Using that as your counterargument is a weak last resort.
Saying you saw an anecdotal fight one time between 24 people and the server didn't lag does nothing to counter argue that we should take steps to get us back to a 900 player server population.
The only counterargument really viable against the no stacking hots/dots is that some users in niche scenarios will overlap effects. Even then chances are you may only overlap a portion of the uptime anyways. Again why the only con is very slight niche scenarios where two players may have the same skill and be in such an isolated combat scenario where they even notice the lack of heals. In large zerg v zerg combat most people wouldnt even notice. With so many clear benefits to the change and this one minuscule negative why even be against it?
You aren't responding to anything I am saying and you are making up random arguments for things I haven't said. I did not say there is only one issue, but the burden of proof is on you, do you not realize that? I'm not saying there is one issue that if fixed will fix latency issues (there may be, I don't think so but it's not impossible) my point is there are bigger issues to latency than removing STICKY HoTs and DoTs, and my anecdote is better than your nothing? It also isn't a single anecdote, there are multiple instances of this happening and people do it on streams. If these giant groups that run more sticky HoTs than any other groups can do it without experiencing lag why would limiting it do anything big for performance?
You again aren't even engaging with what I'm saying when you say "counter argue that we should take steps to get us back to a 900 player server population." What are you even saying and who are you even talking to? Engage with the first point I made please. Try actually reading what I'm saying. Why don't we just make it so people only light attack like what was mainly going on in early cyro when population was high? Surely this would fix the issue, why aren't we doing this?
You are asking for impossible proof through server data.....nobody on the forums other than zos has this. Trying to win an argument by taking an impossible stance is not going to help you.
I have no burden of proof. I merely have to suggest a potential solution for zos to test while giving the pros and cons to the solution. The burden is on zos to go ahead and test this and decide for themselves. At some point they will have to give up on the game or begin taking smaller chunks out of the large issue.
Unlike the proposed blanket 50% heal cut that affects all levels of gameplay equally and adds more calculations for the server. My proposed no stacking effects targets only higher population density scenarios where stacking is more likely to occur and there is a benefit to do culling. This will hardly affect low population density scenarios where there are rare chances that people will ever need, stack, or overlap timers fully to ever be impacted by the culling. We also see other benefits where people now choose different morphs and build diversity is encouraged. We also see the benefit of having a system in place preventing BIS meta dots/hots/procs from ruining the game for months on end like we saw in the famous soul sloads meta or the master DW bleed change meta.
" Why don't we just make it so people only light attack like what was mainly going on in early cyro when population was high? Surely this would fix the issue, why aren't we doing this?"
Because that would have a drastic impact on gameplay.....unlike preventing hot/dot stacking in today's modern game where there are plenty of choices for smaller combat scenarios to never perceive the culling. Culling that would mainly operate during high population density scenarios when there is no way a player can perceive their random spammed heal being culled in the blackhole of 80 people running through a breach.
That is also a drastic impact on gameplay to how it currently is, so your point fall flat, try a different one.
I disagree, most smaller scenario gameplay would rarely coincide and run into these stacking scenarios. While larger group scenarios are prevented from abusing single BIS skills defining metas. This hits zos's target perfectly while providing the protection of culling during the scenarios that strain the server the most like breaches or hammer fights.
The average player is fine, the abuser issues are addressed, and performance sees a benefit......win,win, winEdited by MincMincMinc on January 13, 2026 4:45PMI only use insightful4 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?
Debatable on those claims, you and I simply dont have the numbers to even prove that or disprove that. Pointless bringing it up.
Popularity does not equate to performance. Even if you could prove that pvp popularity was better after and flourished following (which we all know it hasn't or we wouldn't be talking about performance for the past 10+ years)
The arguments is reducing part of a known numerical performance problem by an exponential amount while hardly affecting average player experience instead of adding to it with a blanket "fix" that doesn't even hit their intended target.
It isn't debatable you can use sources from platforms that release numbers which are representative of the larger population, at least on PC. Popularity doesn't equate to performance but then you have to show how HoTs and DoTs that are sticky(the ones contributing to the nerf) are the ones causing these issues moreso than others which they have never shown. I have watched groups of 12 fight other groups of 12 open field within the last 2 months and there is no lag at all during those. The lag has only ever existed when giant groups of people sit around fighting, rezzing each other, rezzing at camps, and continuing the fight for a long period of time, or groups of 50 people are in one area like volendrung or emp keeps.
If you are talking about steamcharts.....yeah thats for steam ESO early on was primarily sold through TESO's website. Again you do not have numbers.......even if we did we dont have the PVP population trends to even continue this line of debate on the PVP issues across time.
I did already show how hots contribute to more calculations, its simple math.
X = number of players
Y = number of hots
Assume both X and Y are the same value greater than 0.
Nonstacking is X*Y
Stacking is X*X*Y
There is no possible scenario mathematically where stacking is better than nonstacking in terms of calculations.
Sure, if you want to minimalize it to that, but then you could say the same about everything? All players should have one skill and one piece of gear on. Like, what is this argument? Look for the actual source of the issue, not the .0001% increase in latency you'd get. Give me some actual numbers on how much it contributed, realistically you have no idea. I know for a fact a 12 man ballgroup with 24 or more sticky HoTs can fight another 12 man ballgroup with the exact same thing and not lag at all. What is your argument?
Again you are saying we should only implement a single solution to patch a hole in a sinking ship. Assuming there is only one hole while demanding no clear action is ever taken that proves it patches the one hole is flawed logic. If there are two holes sinking the ship now you would have wasted tons of time letting water in when action could have taken place. This logic is exactly how the upper brass at companies works. Oh pvp isnt working, well whats the fix......oh there isnt a clear switch to flip?......Well lets focus on PvE
Be realistic here we are users, none of us have or can get server data to back our claims. Using that as your counterargument is a weak last resort.
Saying you saw an anecdotal fight one time between 24 people and the server didn't lag does nothing to counter argue that we should take steps to get us back to a 900 player server population.
The only counterargument really viable against the no stacking hots/dots is that some users in niche scenarios will overlap effects. Even then chances are you may only overlap a portion of the uptime anyways. Again why the only con is very slight niche scenarios where two players may have the same skill and be in such an isolated combat scenario where they even notice the lack of heals. In large zerg v zerg combat most people wouldnt even notice. With so many clear benefits to the change and this one minuscule negative why even be against it?
You aren't responding to anything I am saying and you are making up random arguments for things I haven't said. I did not say there is only one issue, but the burden of proof is on you, do you not realize that? I'm not saying there is one issue that if fixed will fix latency issues (there may be, I don't think so but it's not impossible) my point is there are bigger issues to latency than removing STICKY HoTs and DoTs, and my anecdote is better than your nothing? It also isn't a single anecdote, there are multiple instances of this happening and people do it on streams. If these giant groups that run more sticky HoTs than any other groups can do it without experiencing lag why would limiting it do anything big for performance?
You again aren't even engaging with what I'm saying when you say "counter argue that we should take steps to get us back to a 900 player server population." What are you even saying and who are you even talking to? Engage with the first point I made please. Try actually reading what I'm saying. Why don't we just make it so people only light attack like what was mainly going on in early cyro when population was high? Surely this would fix the issue, why aren't we doing this?
You are asking for impossible proof through server data.....nobody on the forums other than zos has this. Trying to win an argument by taking an impossible stance is not going to help you.
I have no burden of proof. I merely have to suggest a potential solution for zos to test while giving the pros and cons to the solution. The burden is on zos to go ahead and test this and decide for themselves. At some point they will have to give up on the game or begin taking smaller chunks out of the large issue.
Unlike the proposed blanket 50% heal cut that affects all levels of gameplay equally and adds more calculations for the server. My proposed no stacking effects targets only higher population density scenarios where stacking is more likely to occur and there is a benefit to do culling. This will hardly affect low population density scenarios where there are rare chances that people will ever need, stack, or overlap timers fully to ever be impacted by the culling. We also see other benefits where people now choose different morphs and build diversity is encouraged. We also see the benefit of having a system in place preventing BIS meta dots/hots/procs from ruining the game for months on end like we saw in the famous soul sloads meta or the master DW bleed change meta.
" Why don't we just make it so people only light attack like what was mainly going on in early cyro when population was high? Surely this would fix the issue, why aren't we doing this?"
Because that would have a drastic impact on gameplay.....unlike preventing hot/dot stacking in today's modern game where there are plenty of choices for smaller combat scenarios to never perceive the culling. Culling that would mainly operate during high population density scenarios when there is no way a player can perceive their random spammed heal being culled in the blackhole of 80 people running through a breach.
That is also a drastic impact on gameplay to how it currently is, so your point fall flat, try a different one.
I disagree, most smaller scenario gameplay would rarely coincide and run into these stacking scenarios. While larger group scenarios are prevented from abusing single BIS skills defining metas. This hits zos's target perfectly while providing the protection of culling during the scenarios that strain the server the most like breaches or hammer fights.
That's great that you disagree but I disagree with you. People on here are even arguing that most people nowadays are group players, and with that being the case that means most people will have their playstyle drastically changed, so I don't really care that you disagree when this is a drastic change without a doubt.1 -
ZhuJiuyin✭✭✭✭✭Why not just release a universal skill that dispels HOTs from enemies within range? It could even go further and dispel buffs from enemies, thus countering healing stacking, forcing opponents to waste more GCDs to reapply buffs, and avoiding complex calculations and judgments."是燭九陰，是燭龍。"──by "The Classic of Mountains and Seas "English is not my first language,If something is ambiguous, rude due to context and translation issues, etc., please remind me, thanks.0 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Danse_Mayhem wrote: »HAHA I kinda love this.. healing has been insane for a while.
Seriously though I agree with the many people saying this can and will likely backfire.
Large groups / ball groups (the problem) are just gonna spec further into healing. 50% heal reduction on a pretty stacked ball group that are cross healing each other won’t really stop them.
It’s the smaller groups that will suffer here - They will be punished for catching random heals from other players in cyrodil.
My suggestions;
- Make all heals scale with group size. If you want a bigger group, and access to each others buffs etc, then it comes at a cost of healing debuff (which can be built back up with the right specs)
- Nerf the strength of healing soul and remove major vitality. Yeah don’t come at me on this one, we ALL use it, and a universal skill that ANYONE can slap on ANY build shouldn’t be hands down the strongest burst heal in the game. Adjusting this would actually have people even rethinking their subclassing choices to access healing, and would promote some variety along with balance.
If you really must go live with this, just remove all cross healing completely. No one outside of your group can heal or buff you. Not sure I like that direction but you need to commit to one thing or another
The pts version here will be bad for the game
Adding extra bookkeeping and overhead like this will only further drag down performance.
Just limit players to one copy of a given morph and call it a day.
This is an awful suggestion, but still somehow better than what is on the PTS.
Edit: I agree that performance would be screwed by this though.
How so?
You would land with 3 possible HoTs from Regen instead of 12, and only one active Echoing Vigor.
Regeneration
Rapid Regeneration
Radiating Regeneration
Smaller groups not being able to have 3 echoing on them or something is a huge hit to a 3-4 man group. Smaller groups still suffer the most from this.
I almost never see groups with less than 5 players use echoing over resolving vigor, a group of 3 can and usually will use resolving over echoing vigor and do fine.
„Smaller groups“ healstacking 5 echoing vigor are just a smaller version of big groups stacking 12 echoing vigor and deserve to get nerfed just like them.
5 echoing vigor are almost twice the healing of 1 resolving vigor with much longer duration so they are up 100% of the time while casting resolving vigor every 5 seconds is unrealistic.
Even after 50% reduction HPS on every player is almost as much as resolving vigor with 30% of the casts and ressoursses spend.
Of course you don't see groups of 3 running it, it makes no sense mathematically to run echoing in a group that size, it heals for less. If you knew this, rather than just trying to push your own narrative where you equate a 5 man to deserving the same nerf as a 12 man, you'd know that 5 echoing vigor isn't close to 2 resolving, because 3 echoing is less than 1 resolving. You would then by that logic know that 6 is also less than 2 and that you'd want 7 echoing to beat 2 resolving. Now, regardless of the fact that you don't actually care to address any of this and just hate the fact that big groups beat small groups, which is just logically what should happen given all other things equal, it makes zero sense to nerf a smaller group the same as a larger group. Why? Well, if you are playing solo why do you not also receive this nerf? Oh because it would be unfair correct? Okay, then at what random arbitrary metric do you decide that every group should be nerfed the same as a 12 man or even 2 12 man groups running together in tandem? No logic behind this, even if I ignore your lack of understanding the math.
3 echoing vigor is minimally less healing per second per player than 1 resolving vigor but the same healing per player per cast. Only because you can cast vigor every 5 seconds and get the same healing doesnt mean it is practical, having to cast vigor every 5 seconds cost over 3 times as many ressoursses and global cooldowns as casting every 16 seconds and heavily disrupts everything you do while casting echoing once every 16 seconds is just another buff to refresh. Reason I wouldnt use echoing vigor in trio is that when 1 player forgets to cast or disconnects or goes afk or offline or runs off your group has not 3 echoing vigor anymore.
With a group of 5 you have backup but with a group of 3 you dont.
There is no precise definition of almost or close so claiming 5 echoing isnt almost as much HPS as 2 resolving and that I dont know mathematics because 6 echoing is minimally less than 1 resolving is nonsense.
5 echoing vigor recastet every 16 seconds is higher healing than 2 resolving vigor recastet every 6.5 seconds which is more often than you realistically recast resolving vigor (which is still more often than you would have to recast echoing).
That groups stacking 5 echoing vigor deserving nerf just like groups 12 groups stacking 12 echoing vigor doesnt mean they both have to get nerfed by same percentage but just in the same way for the same reason. That could also be done by just not appliyng more than X heals making 5man get same healing per player as ballgroup.
Nobody is asking to make groups weaker than soloplayers as even without making aoe heals scaling with number of players they hit X*Y players can make X*Y times as many kills and require X*Y times as many killing blows to kill as Y players but giving players in group a HoT instance from every teammember turns strength increase from linear to quadratical function and artificially dimishes the chance of outnumbered players more than they would naturally be.
It is contradictory you now complain about solo players not receiving this nerf when you claimed before this nerf would nerf solo players more than ballgroups.
Okay, just to see if you are good faith, why would you use the number 5 if it's closer to 7 than it even is to 6. There is no rounding you could do to get to 5. You couldn't even round to get to 6. If you round you get 7, if you wanna say between the two that's fine. Why would you use 5 other than because you don't understand or just to try to push the point by making it more unrealistic?
I kept using the number 5 for consistency because I used it before as number where groups start using echoing vigor over resolving vigor. When I suddenly switch to using different number than it seems like I am talking about something different but there is not much difference between a group of 5 and a group of 6.
And 2 resolving vigor are closer to 6 than 7 echoing vigor. Resolving vigor gives same healing per player (for 1 player insteat of up to 6) over 5 insteat of 16 seconds which healing per second of resolving vigor divided by echoing vigor is 3.2 and 2*3.2=6.4 is closer to 6 than to 7.PC EU1 -
MeridiaFavorsMe✭✭✭I’m a solo player who runs around Cyrodiil healing on the battlefield. I’m not in a coordinated ball group and I’m not chasing meta setups—I’m just supporting my faction where I can. I already get plenty of hate tells saying I “ruin PvP” simply for helping keep people alive on AD. Even so, I feel like I have real impact in large fights and keep takes by keeping people healed through siege pressure and preventing unnecessary deaths.
This change really worries me because most of my skills are sticky heal-over-time effects. With Battlespirit now reducing healing taken by 50% when multiple HoTs are active, me trying to help people can actively hurt them. Healing allies shouldn’t punish them for receiving healing, especially in large-scale PvP where HoTs are the backbone of support.
I’ve seen the argument that this pushes healing toward “only heal people in your group,” but that doesn’t help my situation at all. I should be able to play solo and heal without being forced to group up just to avoid harming others. Cyrodiil has always supported different playstyles, including solo support players who help whoever is nearby. This change effectively removes that playstyle and turns solo healers into a liability instead of an asset.
I’m worried not just about the gameplay impact, but the social one too. I already get blamed for keeping people alive, and now I’m concerned I’ll get blamed for actively reducing their healing simply by doing my job. That doesn’t feel healthy for PvP or for players who enjoy supporting others outside of organized groups.3 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Overwriting instances would require the least supplemental computation out of anything proposed thus far and it fits in well philosophically with the rest of the combat system's rules (e.g. named buffs not stacking, damage shields not stacking with themselves, etc.). Players largely understand and accept those rules as fair.
It also takes the biggest bite out of the specific issue that is ostensibly trying to be solved by the original PTS change: curtailing the power of stacked sticky HOTs. And it would achieve exactly that... literally prohibiting them from stacking at all... and, importantly, without drifting off into other weird side-projects, vendettas or mission-creep.
As someone who primarily ballgroups these days, overwriting sticky HOTs would also be a gigantic nerf. But there are very compelling gameplay and performance reasons for eliminating sticky HOT stacking, so I would rather do what is best for the game mode as a whole than what is best for my own particular self-interest.7 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ive already found a solution for my smallman to prevent ever having the heal cut issue, so godspeed everyone elseI only use insightful1 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Me too, there are 0 hots on me if I never log in!MincMincMinc wrote: »Ive already found a solution for my smallman to prevent ever having the heal cut issue, so godspeed everyone elsePC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP6 -
TheAwesomeChimpanzee✭✭✭✭It is almost unbelievable to me that a change like this was proposed, and nobody at ZOS stopped to think about the consequences, both for pug healers, and for all the ways this can be abused to deliberately reduce someone’s, or an entire group’s, healing.
From the clarification in this thread, if a player has 3 or more Heal over Time effects active on them, then all healing they receive is reduced by 50%. Even if the intent is “sticky” HoTs only, this is a huge problem if out of group players can affect that count. If a random pug can put a sticky HoT on someone outside their group, and push them into the 3 plus threshold, then this becomes griefing on demand, and Cyrodiil will be ruined for everyone. I am assuming this part will get changed quickly.
Even if you restrict it to sticky HoTs from your own group only, a 50% healing reduction is still way too much. It basically makes those abilities feel useless, and it hits small coordinated groups the same way it hits full 12 player ball groups. A 3 to 4 man squad should not be punished as hard as a 12 man.
Also, even with the restriction, organized groups will adapt. They will stack more shields, keep sticky HoTs at two, and lean harder on AoE HoTs and burst heals. That is still a nerf, but it does not solve the main problem, which in my opinion is shield stacking and overall defensive power creep.
If the goal is to nerf organized cross healing without breaking the game for everyone else, here are two better options.
1. Cap each sticky HoT type per target
Instead of punishing someone for having multiple HoTs, cap how many of each specific sticky HoT a player can have at once. For example, allow only 1 to 2 Echoing Vigors, 1 to 2 Radiating Regenerations, 1 to 2 similar sticky HoTs, etc. If a new one is applied past the cap, it replaces and refreshes the oldest one, or it overrides the existing one of the same type.
This hits the actual issue, which is stacking the same high value sticky HoTs from many different players at the same time. It also avoids nuking small groups for doing normal coordinated play.
It also helps performance. If the goal is to reduce server strain, limiting how many HoT ticks can be active on one target is a direct way to do it.
This assumes one important safeguard, out of group players should not be able to override, replace, or refresh your group’s HoTs. If they can, then any system like this can still be abused.
2. Add a group size scaling heal and shield taken debuff
A more balanced approach is a Battle Spirit modifier that scales with group size, starting at 3 players and scaling up to
12. That is where cross healing starts to matter, and where the power gap starts to get out of hand.
For example, starting at 3 players, apply a 2.5% healing taken and shielding taken reduction (similar to minor/major defile) per extra group member, up to 12. That puts a 12 man group at 25%, while smaller groups take a much smaller hit. A 3 to 4 person group gets a light penalty, a 6 to 8 gets a real penalty, and a 10 to 12 gets hit the hardest, which is the point.
This also hits shield stacking more directly than the current proposal. Right now the PTS change mainly pushes groups to rely even more on shields, because shields become the obvious workaround. If you scale both healing and shielding together, you are targeting the whole defensive package that makes large organized groups so hard to kill.
Yes, this adds a group size check, but the current PTS approach already adds conditional logic when healing happens anyway. If we are doing extra checks, it makes more sense to do them in a way that is fair across group sizes, instead of a flat 50% penalty that treats 3 players like 12.
Finally, I have been a ball group player for a long time, and I am not blind to the fact that ball group power creep, especially in 10 to 12 player groups, has gotten out of hand. A nerf is needed. I just think the current version is overtuned, and if the out of group interaction is not fixed immediately, it is also inherently exploitable.6 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »It is almost unbelievable to me that a change like this was proposed, and nobody at ZOS stopped to think about the consequences, both for pug healers, and for all the ways this can be abused to deliberately reduce someone’s, or an entire group’s, healing.
......
Finally, I have been a ball group player for a long time, and I am not blind to the fact that ball group power creep, especially in 10 to 12 player groups, has gotten out of hand. A nerf is needed. I just think the current version is overtuned, and if the out of group interaction is not fixed immediately, it is also inherently exploitable.
Yeah really this 50% cut is just a dummy switch for anyone not smart enough to avoid being hit. 1vX solo and smallmans have a workaround already to avoid the heal cut entirely. All ball groups need to do is bypass the hots that trigger the issue. If anything this can be to the benefit of a ball group, cuz now zergs that were bad at healing to begin with suddenly have half the heals you do.I only use insightful3 -
ZOS_GinaBrunoCommunity ManagerHi everyone,
First, thanks to everyone for providing so much feedback in this thread, and especially for those that were able to hop on the PTS this week to try out this change in real time. We’ve heard your feedback loud and clear – both from this thread and other sources – and we’d like to let you know we are planning to revert the Heal over Time on Battlespirit in next week’s PTS patch.
For additional context, the initial reasoning behind this change was to help with a common complaint we’ve seen over the years that healing feels too strong, most notably with stacked HoTs. Transparently, we simply don’t have the time or bandwidth to fully change healing capabilities without significantly affecting future class reworks, which is why we landed with this option, but it clearly missed the mark.
We’ll explore other options to address concerns around healing and damage shields in PvP to be released in a future update, and we’ll share some ideas prior to it hitting the PTS so you can be more involved in the process. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts here, and again, you can expect the revert to occur in next week’s PTS patch.Gina Bruno
Principal Creator Engagement Manager
Dev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter | My Twitter24 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭✭ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Hi everyone,
First, thanks to everyone for providing so much feedback in this thread, and especially for those that were able to hop on the PTS this week to try out this change in real time. We’ve heard your feedback loud and clear – both from this thread and other sources – and we’d like to let you know we are planning to revert the Heal over Time on Battlespirit in next week’s PTS patch.
For additional context, the initial reasoning behind this change was to help with a common complaint we’ve seen over the years that healing feels too strong, most notably with stacked HoTs. Transparently, we simply don’t have the time or bandwidth to fully change healing capabilities without significantly affecting future class reworks, which is why we landed with this option, but it clearly missed the mark.
We’ll explore other options to address concerns around healing and damage shields in PvP to be released in a future update, and we’ll share some ideas prior to it hitting the PTS so you can be more involved in the process. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts here, and again, you can expect the revert to occur in next week’s PTS patch.
Thanks, looking forward to seeing what the planned alternative is.2
This discussion has been closed.