Update 49 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts
Maintenance for the week of January 19:
• [IN PROGRESS] NA megaservers for patch maintenance – January 21, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC)
• [IN PROGRESS] EU megaservers for patch maintenance – January 21, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 15:00 UTC (10:00AM EST)
• [IN PROGRESS] NA megaservers for patch maintenance – January 21, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC)
• [IN PROGRESS] EU megaservers for patch maintenance – January 21, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 15:00 UTC (10:00AM EST)
Cyrodiil Healing Nerf!!
-
Artisian0001✭✭✭✭Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
Can you post the source for that?1 -
MeridiaFavorsMe✭✭✭Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
A 1 second global cooldown probably also causes performance issues. They could just make it a 4 second global cooldown. I fixed performance issues. I can suggest garbage stuff as well.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.Edited by MeridiaFavorsMe on January 13, 2026 1:56PM1 -
This is coming from a solo player who’s played the game for 10 I absolutely do not care about my healing being gutted if it means I can kill the guy im fighting . Healing and shield stacking needs to be nuked those two things alone are not to suppose to keep you alive forever players have gotten lazy with doing the absolute bare minimum to stay alive and I don’t know if healers realize this yet but this nerf makes you even more valuable than you were before players being able to heal themselves less means your healing matters now2
-
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭rlindsey912nub18_ESO wrote: »This is coming from a solo player who’s played the game for 10 I absolutely do not care about my healing being gutted if it means I can kill the guy im fighting . Healing and shield stacking needs to be nuked those two things alone are not to suppose to keep you alive forever players have gotten lazy with doing the absolute bare minimum to stay alive and I don’t know if healers realize this yet but this nerf makes you even more valuable than you were before players being able to heal themselves less means your healing matters now
It doesn't make healers more valuable. Healers are more likely to reduce the overall amount of healing you are taking rather than increase it with this change.
It feels like one of the biggest issues in this thread is that many people don’t actually understand how this change will affect the game as a whole. A lot of the support seems to come from players who simply want easier kills, rather than from any real consideration of balance or long-term impact. They don’t seem particularly concerned with how the change is implemented, as long as it results in a nerf that benefits their playstyle.
Because of that, any proposal framed as a nerf is immediately met with applause, regardless of whether it’s healthy for the game. Honestly, if ZOS announced that everyone’s resistances in Cyrodiil were being set to zero, some of these same people would still come out cheering. That kind of reaction suggests the discussion isn’t about improving gameplay or balance, but about maximizing personal advantage at any cost.Edited by Teeba_Shei on January 13, 2026 2:04PM3 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭✭rlindsey912nub18_ESO wrote: »This is coming from a solo player who’s played the game for 10 I absolutely do not care about my healing being gutted if it means I can kill the guy im fighting . Healing and shield stacking needs to be nuked those two things alone are not to suppose to keep you alive forever players have gotten lazy with doing the absolute bare minimum to stay alive and I don’t know if healers realize this yet but this nerf makes you even more valuable than you were before players being able to heal themselves less means your healing matters now
In the current meta you can kill any solo player unless they are solely invested in just being a tank and holding block, in which case you should walk away. No solo player is out healing your damage man, you don't even play the game if you think this. Every single thread on subclassing is complaining about there being TOO MUCH damage with the current lineup of aedric spear, assassination, and animal companions. If you are talking about heal stacking from multiple people and you not being able to kill them while you are solo you aren't even making sense. Please stop.Edited by Artisian0001 on January 13, 2026 2:05PM1 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
Thats just one of the causes of the performances issues. it isnt the only one.
By this logic of what you are implying, lets keep making worse decisions that add to the problem....like blanket 50% heal cut mechanics that only add to the worst performative calculations.
Just because there is no silver bullet, doesnt mean you shouldnt take action. Find changes that make little to no impact for players that fix performance. Something like hot/dot/effect stacking being reverted to original PvP design to prevent stacking sources would be a very good bang for our buck.
The only con to preventing stacking effects is that at some point in time a poor zerg healer may overlap a low impact hot heal while spamming into a blackhole of 50 zerglings......im sorry thats just not good enough of a reason to avoid making the change that:- Culls TONS of unnecessary calculations during the WORST performative moments while also being unnoticeable in the vast majority of gameplay scenarios.
- Cuts down ballgroups stacking 12x BIS hots walking around pumping 2x their healthbar in hots per second.
- Cuts down on future metas revolving around a single effect....hots....dots.....proc sets. Look back at terrible metas like the soul sloads meta. Everyone spammed one BIS dot and one BIS dot proc set which was uncounterable oblivion damage. This would never have happened for months on end if the effects didnt stack. Players would be incentivized to use different proc sets, or more performative stat sets.
- Skill and morph diversity is now promoted as different morphs become more necessary. Builds may now go down different paths instead of following the BIS meta. This also incentivizes people to use off meta skill lines and build into different concepts.
Edited by MincMincMinc on January 13, 2026 2:16PMI only use insightful1 -
Wolfshade✭✭✭✭✭
✭Great opportunity for new kind of fake healers who spawn now hots over hots to all players around!
Awesome!
0 -
lol bro what game are you playing everyone is running the same op build and absolutely not build to be tanks if you nerf the over tune survival there’s no need to keep buffing damage you guys are creating an never ending circle of unbalanced issues because to many skills are not viable because the number 1 issue in the game right now is how lazy and easy it is to survive prime example is the brain dead warden skill line everyone is running free heal and cleanses on a free spammable ability with no cost
1 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except ZOS's tests have shown that server calcs are the problem. I don't know how many ways I can tell you the same thing.
PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!2 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭✭MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except ZOS's tests have shown that server calcs are the problem. I don't know how many ways I can tell you the same thing.
I asked you to post it and you haven't. Post something.1 -
Muizer✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
AFAIK the tests with AOE caps and the like showed that the bottleneck is formed by the checks that determine which are the affected targets when an AoE ability is cast. Once that's resolved any calculations operating on each individual player, are comparatively simple. If the major problem was with the latter, AoE caps would have been more effective than they turned out to be.
Please stop making requests for game features. ZOS have enough bad ideas as it is!0 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.I only use insightful2 -
MeridiaFavorsMe✭✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
You’re still hyper-focusing on one slice of the problem and pretending the rest of the pizza doesn’t exist. Yes, stacking rules changed. Yes, player kits are denser now. That doesn’t automatically mean HoTs are the primary villain.
The game has added layers upon layers of systems since then: proc sets firing conditionally, cross-heals, cross-buffs, scaling shields, CP passives, status effects, synergies, mythics, scripted set logic, and constant buff/debuff recalculation. A solo player walking around with ~20 active buffs today would’ve been unthinkable back then.0 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
You’re still hyper-focusing on one slice of the problem and pretending the rest of the pizza doesn’t exist. Yes, stacking rules changed. Yes, player kits are denser now. That doesn’t automatically mean HoTs are the primary villain.
The game has added layers upon layers of systems since then: proc sets firing conditionally, cross-heals, cross-buffs, scaling shields, CP passives, status effects, synergies, mythics, scripted set logic, and constant buff/debuff recalculation. A solo player walking around with ~20 active buffs today would’ve been unthinkable back then.
I agree. Just think about the damage calculations for even a single instance of damage. There are 12 different multipliers to determine how much damage it should do and then on the other end there are 12 different damage reduction effects to calculate as well.
We are really getting side tracked from the original post here though. The change as it stands on PTS is garbage, but it certainly help performance because no one will even bother to play cyrodiil if they implement it.Edited by Teeba_Shei on January 13, 2026 2:46PM0 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
You’re still hyper-focusing on one slice of the problem and pretending the rest of the pizza doesn’t exist. Yes, stacking rules changed. Yes, player kits are denser now. That doesn’t automatically mean HoTs are the primary villain.
The game has added layers upon layers of systems since then: proc sets firing conditionally, cross-heals, cross-buffs, scaling shields, CP passives, status effects, synergies, mythics, scripted set logic, and constant buff/debuff recalculation. A solo player walking around with ~20 active buffs today would’ve been unthinkable back then.
It doesnt matter how big the pizza is, you are not eating it in one bite. Dude there is no silver bullet. Zos has been trying at that philosophy for over a decade now. You have to pick one system rule like this and start changing it. Out of your list removing stacking effects is probably the best possible change.
It specifically is targeting those clumped up ball singularity moments that lag out the server. Anyone spread out or playing solo or smallman would hardly be affected. The bang for the buck is very clear. For the one rare incident con, there are a slew of balance benefits and performance benefits.
Just wanna add how wild it is to be arguing with other pvpers on this. Way back in the day it was the endgame PvE trial crowd arguing for this against the pvp community that didnt want stacking effects to ruin pvp.Edited by MincMincMinc on January 13, 2026 2:48PMI only use insightful1 -
Wolfshade✭✭✭✭✭
✭Whats the argue with performance by running hots, when reducing overall healing taken? Thats nonsense, cause everyone can still spam their hots.
And how many non-ball players around in keep. There is one players elswhere spawns his hot, that cant be hit controled to one player. It goes randomly. The effected player will then have maybe one hot too much running, that reduced the overall healing and will be the next ball-target.
This change will effect the non-ball player more, then everytime they tried to do anything against tha balls with arguing by performance.
I will switch from my Alliance to the opponments Alliance every prime time and will spam hots over hots. Its pure nonsense.
0 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?0 -
Iriidius✭✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »The main issue of Cyrodiil nowdays are the playstyles enabled overimte by the game itself. When I first joined Cyrodiil, I found a place of freedom, in which everyone brings what they have, and fight together as an alliance for a purpose ( campaign results). Groups were merely 24 random people, among which maybe some friends, simply grouping to go together somewhere for a purpose (take an objective, help their alliance, fight along side each other). It was because of ballgroups that the original nr of grouping in Cyrodiil was reduced.
Nowdays we have so called "organized groups" from 4 to 12, functioning exactly like trial groups - and I do not mean in terms of what they wear or what they do - no, they are indeed very pvp organized. But the mentality of these groups is 100% driven by said trial groups. They even have schedules for when to play together. Fine and well - for them. Some are even decent enough to admit their playstyle is special, and only fight other balls, but the majority - for now it's a well-spread trend - would just run over anyone still daring to play freely. Pretty sure there are special requirements to be in any of these groups - exactly like in "serious trial groups". And the sad part? I see nowdays they are even reffered to as "groups" - simply. As if that is the only variety of groups existing in Cyrodiil.
I'll take anything helping downgrade these types of groups. And if complaints arise? Consider the spread-amount of this trend which led to this situation to begin with. For a free Cyrodiil!
I don't know what reality you are claiming to live in, but going back to the first year of cyro isn't the right play. If you think it is, like has already been said before, just stick to vengeance because ESO GH is not for you. Even when 24 man groups existed, for the VAST MAJORITY of ESO's life, these groups have been coordinated with sets, playstyles, healers, purge, etc. Why people want to devolve is beyond me.
First year Cyrodiil had 10 campaigns with 300 players per faction while now PC can get only one campaign with 120 players full and on Console not even that so over 90% of players have left because of changes as most changes made PvP not better but worse. First year Cyrodiil was played and liked by more than 10 times more players than current Cyrodiil.
Sticking to Vengeance is bad advice when it is currently not available and you want prevent ZOS from ever making it available again.
When 24 man groups existet most of them were PUGs not coordinating anything. Only a small minority of groups were ballgroups and the group sets they had were less and much weaker back then.
PC EU1 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭✭Artisian0001 wrote: »The main issue of Cyrodiil nowdays are the playstyles enabled overimte by the game itself. When I first joined Cyrodiil, I found a place of freedom, in which everyone brings what they have, and fight together as an alliance for a purpose ( campaign results). Groups were merely 24 random people, among which maybe some friends, simply grouping to go together somewhere for a purpose (take an objective, help their alliance, fight along side each other). It was because of ballgroups that the original nr of grouping in Cyrodiil was reduced.
Nowdays we have so called "organized groups" from 4 to 12, functioning exactly like trial groups - and I do not mean in terms of what they wear or what they do - no, they are indeed very pvp organized. But the mentality of these groups is 100% driven by said trial groups. They even have schedules for when to play together. Fine and well - for them. Some are even decent enough to admit their playstyle is special, and only fight other balls, but the majority - for now it's a well-spread trend - would just run over anyone still daring to play freely. Pretty sure there are special requirements to be in any of these groups - exactly like in "serious trial groups". And the sad part? I see nowdays they are even reffered to as "groups" - simply. As if that is the only variety of groups existing in Cyrodiil.
I'll take anything helping downgrade these types of groups. And if complaints arise? Consider the spread-amount of this trend which led to this situation to begin with. For a free Cyrodiil!
I don't know what reality you are claiming to live in, but going back to the first year of cyro isn't the right play. If you think it is, like has already been said before, just stick to vengeance because ESO GH is not for you. Even when 24 man groups existed, for the VAST MAJORITY of ESO's life, these groups have been coordinated with sets, playstyles, healers, purge, etc. Why people want to devolve is beyond me.
First year Cyrodiil had 10 campaigns with 300 players per faction while now PC can get only one campaign with 120 players full and on Console not even that so over 90% of players have left because of changes as most changes made PvP not better but worse. First year Cyrodiil was played and liked by more than 10 times more players than current Cyrodiil.
Sticking to Vengeance is bad advice when it is currently not available and you want prevent ZOS from ever making it available again.
When 24 man groups existet most of them were PUGs not coordinating anything. Only a small minority of groups were ballgroups and the group sets they had were less and much weaker back then.
Bro if you are going to lie for the sake of an argument just stop responding to me. You have said nothing of value, "you want prevent ZOS from ever making it available again." who are people like me? Do you not know how to read? I have said several times vengeance is fine, what are you even talking about lmao and that is aside from the fact that everything else you said was nonsense.0 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?
Debatable on those claims, you and I simply dont have the numbers to even prove that or disprove that. Pointless bringing it up.
Popularity does not equate to performance. Even if you could prove that pvp popularity was better after and flourished following (which we all know it hasn't or we wouldn't be talking about performance for the past 10+ years)
The arguments is reducing part of a known numerical performance problem by an exponential amount while hardly affecting average player experience instead of adding to it with a blanket "fix" that doesn't even hit their intended target.I only use insightful3 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭Artisian0001 wrote: »The main issue of Cyrodiil nowdays are the playstyles enabled overimte by the game itself. When I first joined Cyrodiil, I found a place of freedom, in which everyone brings what they have, and fight together as an alliance for a purpose ( campaign results). Groups were merely 24 random people, among which maybe some friends, simply grouping to go together somewhere for a purpose (take an objective, help their alliance, fight along side each other). It was because of ballgroups that the original nr of grouping in Cyrodiil was reduced.
Nowdays we have so called "organized groups" from 4 to 12, functioning exactly like trial groups - and I do not mean in terms of what they wear or what they do - no, they are indeed very pvp organized. But the mentality of these groups is 100% driven by said trial groups. They even have schedules for when to play together. Fine and well - for them. Some are even decent enough to admit their playstyle is special, and only fight other balls, but the majority - for now it's a well-spread trend - would just run over anyone still daring to play freely. Pretty sure there are special requirements to be in any of these groups - exactly like in "serious trial groups". And the sad part? I see nowdays they are even reffered to as "groups" - simply. As if that is the only variety of groups existing in Cyrodiil.
I'll take anything helping downgrade these types of groups. And if complaints arise? Consider the spread-amount of this trend which led to this situation to begin with. For a free Cyrodiil!
I don't know what reality you are claiming to live in, but going back to the first year of cyro isn't the right play. If you think it is, like has already been said before, just stick to vengeance because ESO GH is not for you. Even when 24 man groups existed, for the VAST MAJORITY of ESO's life, these groups have been coordinated with sets, playstyles, healers, purge, etc. Why people want to devolve is beyond me.
First year Cyrodiil had 10 campaigns with 300 players per faction while now PC can get only one campaign with 120 players full and on Console not even that so over 90% of players have left because of changes as most changes made PvP not better but worse. First year Cyrodiil was played and liked by more than 10 times more players than current Cyrodiil.
Sticking to Vengeance is bad advice when it is currently not available and you want prevent ZOS from ever making it available again.
When 24 man groups existet most of them were PUGs not coordinating anything. Only a small minority of groups were ballgroups and the group sets they had were less and much weaker back then.
First, almost every MMO loses a large portion of its player base over time. Launch populations are always inflated by novelty, marketing, and curiosity. Ten years later, you’re never comparing like-for-like populations. Games survive by adding new content and systems that bring players back, not by freezing the game in its year-one state.
That’s where Cyrodiil really struggles: it’s been largely stagnant for years. Same map, same objectives, same meta loop. PvE gets new zones, trials, systems, and catch-up mechanics regularly; Cyrodiil mostly gets performance bandaids and rule changes. It’s not surprising players drift away when there’s little new to discover or master.
Second, the barrier to entry is massive, especially with CP. A new or returning player looks at:
- Hundreds (now thousands) of CP
- Fully optimized gear sets
- Add-ons, builds, and meta knowledge
- Being instantly farmed by veterans
A lot of people quit before they even experience what Cyrodiil can be like, not because of a specific change like group size or Vengeance, but because the grind and power gap are intimidating. Early Cyrodiil didn’t have that problem to the same extent.1 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?
Debatable on those claims, you and I simply dont have the numbers to even prove that or disprove that. Pointless bringing it up.
Popularity does not equate to performance. Even if you could prove that pvp popularity was better after and flourished following (which we all know it hasn't or we wouldn't be talking about performance for the past 10+ years)
The arguments is reducing part of a known numerical performance problem by an exponential amount while hardly affecting average player experience instead of adding to it with a blanket "fix" that doesn't even hit their intended target.
It isn't debatable you can use sources from platforms that release numbers which are representative of the larger population, at least on PC. Popularity doesn't equate to performance but then you have to show how HoTs and DoTs that are sticky(the ones contributing to the nerf) are the ones causing these issues moreso than others which they have never shown. I have watched groups of 12 fight other groups of 12 open field within the last 2 months and there is no lag at all during those. The lag has only ever existed when giant groups of people sit around fighting, rezzing each other, rezzing at camps, and continuing the fight for a long period of time, or groups of 50 people are in one area like volendrung or emp keeps.Edited by Artisian0001 on January 13, 2026 3:06PM0 -
LarsS✭✭✭✭✭I don’t think this change will reduce calculations and I don’t think the change is made for that reason.
I see this change as a test, to see if it is possible to reduce the power gap between experienced players in good ball groups and inexperienced player testing pvp.
Most players don’t want to put in the effort needed to learn to play the way a ball group play. I think the players new to pvp expects to die a lot, but having no realistic chance to win, is not fun. Thus, the power gap must be reduced, if we want more people to come to cyro and learn to play pvp.
GM for The Daggerfall Authority EU PC0 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭✭I don’t think this change will reduce calculations and I don’t think the change is made for that reason.
I see this change as a test, to see if it is possible to reduce the power gap between experienced players in good ball groups and inexperienced player testing pvp.
Most players don’t want to put in the effort needed to learn to play the way a ball group play. I think the players new to pvp expects to die a lot, but having no realistic chance to win, is not fun. Thus, the power gap must be reduced, if we want more people to come to cyro and learn to play pvp.
You don't test something by doing an overwhelming huge nerf to healing that can affect smaller groups and can also still be avoided by larger groups. It doesn't make any sense.1 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don’t think this change will reduce calculations and I don’t think the change is made for that reason.
I see this change as a test, to see if it is possible to reduce the power gap between experienced players in good ball groups and inexperienced player testing pvp.
Most players don’t want to put in the effort needed to learn to play the way a ball group play. I think the players new to pvp expects to die a lot, but having no realistic chance to win, is not fun. Thus, the power gap must be reduced, if we want more people to come to cyro and learn to play pvp.
The problem with this change is that it doesn't just impact experienced players in ball groups. It will also impact the inexperienced players. This change is effectively just going to make battle spirit a 75% healing debuff.1 -
MeridiaFavorsMe✭✭✭Teeba_Shei wrote: »I don’t think this change will reduce calculations and I don’t think the change is made for that reason.
I see this change as a test, to see if it is possible to reduce the power gap between experienced players in good ball groups and inexperienced player testing pvp.
Most players don’t want to put in the effort needed to learn to play the way a ball group play. I think the players new to pvp expects to die a lot, but having no realistic chance to win, is not fun. Thus, the power gap must be reduced, if we want more people to come to cyro and learn to play pvp.
The problem with this change is that it doesn't just impact experienced players in ball groups. It will also impact the inexperienced players. This change is effectively just going to make battle spirit a 75% healing debuff.
This 100%. Enjoy not being able to heal yourself.Edited by MeridiaFavorsMe on January 13, 2026 3:12PM1 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?
Debatable on those claims, you and I simply dont have the numbers to even prove that or disprove that. Pointless bringing it up.
Popularity does not equate to performance. Even if you could prove that pvp popularity was better after and flourished following (which we all know it hasn't or we wouldn't be talking about performance for the past 10+ years)
The arguments is reducing part of a known numerical performance problem by an exponential amount while hardly affecting average player experience instead of adding to it with a blanket "fix" that doesn't even hit their intended target.
It isn't debatable you can use sources from platforms that release numbers which are representative of the larger population, at least on PC. Popularity doesn't equate to performance but then you have to show how HoTs and DoTs that are sticky(the ones contributing to the nerf) are the ones causing these issues moreso than others which they have never shown. I have watched groups of 12 fight other groups of 12 open field within the last 2 months and there is no lag at all during those. The lag has only ever existed when giant groups of people sit around fighting, rezzing each other, rezzing at camps, and continuing the fight for a long period of time, or groups of 50 people are in one area like volendrung or emp keeps.
If you are talking about steamcharts.....yeah thats for steam ESO early on was primarily sold through TESO's website. Again you do not have numbers.......even if we did we dont have the PVP population trends to even continue this line of debate on the PVP issues across time.
I did already show how hots contribute to more calculations, its simple math.
X = number of players
Y = number of hots
Assume both X and Y are the same value greater than 0.
Nonstacking is X*Y
Stacking is X*X*Y
There is no possible scenario mathematically where stacking is better than nonstacking in terms of calculations.I only use insightful1 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?
Debatable on those claims, you and I simply dont have the numbers to even prove that or disprove that. Pointless bringing it up.
Popularity does not equate to performance. Even if you could prove that pvp popularity was better after and flourished following (which we all know it hasn't or we wouldn't be talking about performance for the past 10+ years)
The arguments is reducing part of a known numerical performance problem by an exponential amount while hardly affecting average player experience instead of adding to it with a blanket "fix" that doesn't even hit their intended target.
It isn't debatable you can use sources from platforms that release numbers which are representative of the larger population, at least on PC. Popularity doesn't equate to performance but then you have to show how HoTs and DoTs that are sticky(the ones contributing to the nerf) are the ones causing these issues moreso than others which they have never shown. I have watched groups of 12 fight other groups of 12 open field within the last 2 months and there is no lag at all during those. The lag has only ever existed when giant groups of people sit around fighting, rezzing each other, rezzing at camps, and continuing the fight for a long period of time, or groups of 50 people are in one area like volendrung or emp keeps.
If you are talking about steamcharts.....yeah thats for steam ESO early on was primarily sold through TESO's website. Again you do not have numbers.......even if we did we dont have the PVP population trends to even continue this line of debate on the PVP issues across time.
I did already show how hots contribute to more calculations, its simple math.
X = number of players
Y = number of hots
Assume both X and Y are the same value greater than 0.
Nonstacking is X*Y
Stacking is X*X*Y
There is no possible scenario mathematically where stacking is better than nonstacking in terms of calculations.
Just because there are more calculations doesn't mean its the primary contributor to lag. Can you prove that somehow?1 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »Artisian0001 wrote: »MincMincMinc wrote: »MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »Teeba_Shei wrote: »Restrict it to one HoT and one DoT - new ones replace the old ones - decide if you want the HoT to outheal any given DoT for balancing. Then you can scrap Vengeance because you just solved the root cause of the performance problems in one move.
You are trying to move back in time to 25 patches ago. Are you also going to remove the extra weapon and spell damage and reduce siege damage back to what it was 25 patches ago? Your suggestion isn't going to fix performance.
The game has massively evolved since then.
If you want to throw healing nerfs on groups then it should probably scale based on group size or something, but so many of the suggestions in this thread are terrible. It seems like the nerfs should specifically be targeting hots if that is the issue being addressed, but the current change is targeting all healing and is going to impact everyone.
ZOS own tests show it is the root cause of the performance issues. Multiple HoTs and competing DoTs are a massive amount of server calcs.
HoTs and DoTs have existed forever without this level of performance dumpster fire. Blaming combat math is an easy scapegoat when server architecture, population spikes, and years of layered systems are the real suspects.
Except hots, dots, and effects used to not stack lol. At the same time we had maybe half the skills in the current game. Meaning during large pvp singularity events hots were a finite number, not infinitely stacking based on the population of the singularity.
We are talking if 5 hots are in the game that dont stack we take the number of players X * 5 and this is the possible number of calcs happening in a large group fight.
With infinite stacking we have this multiplied times the number of people. X * X * 5 which is what we see in current ballgroups stacking as many BIS hots and shields as possible.
Removing an exponential component is far better for performance than adding another component checking EVERY SINGLE HOT calculation in the game.
They have stacked for longer than they haven't and the game was most popular when they did, so what even is the argument?
Debatable on those claims, you and I simply dont have the numbers to even prove that or disprove that. Pointless bringing it up.
Popularity does not equate to performance. Even if you could prove that pvp popularity was better after and flourished following (which we all know it hasn't or we wouldn't be talking about performance for the past 10+ years)
The arguments is reducing part of a known numerical performance problem by an exponential amount while hardly affecting average player experience instead of adding to it with a blanket "fix" that doesn't even hit their intended target.
It isn't debatable you can use sources from platforms that release numbers which are representative of the larger population, at least on PC. Popularity doesn't equate to performance but then you have to show how HoTs and DoTs that are sticky(the ones contributing to the nerf) are the ones causing these issues moreso than others which they have never shown. I have watched groups of 12 fight other groups of 12 open field within the last 2 months and there is no lag at all during those. The lag has only ever existed when giant groups of people sit around fighting, rezzing each other, rezzing at camps, and continuing the fight for a long period of time, or groups of 50 people are in one area like volendrung or emp keeps.
If you are talking about steamcharts.....yeah thats for steam ESO early on was primarily sold through TESO's website. Again you do not have numbers.......even if we did we dont have the PVP population trends to even continue this line of debate on the PVP issues across time.
I did already show how hots contribute to more calculations, its simple math.
X = number of players
Y = number of hots
Assume both X and Y are the same value greater than 0.
Nonstacking is X*Y
Stacking is X*X*Y
There is no possible scenario mathematically where stacking is better than nonstacking in terms of calculations.
Sure, if you want to minimalize it to that, but then you could say the same about everything? All players should have one skill and one piece of gear on. Like, what is this argument? Look for the actual source of the issue, not the .0001% increase in latency you'd get. Give me some actual numbers on how much it contributed, realistically you have no idea. I know for a fact a 12 man ballgroup with 24 or more sticky HoTs can fight another 12 man ballgroup with the exact same thing and not lag at all. What is your argument?Edited by Artisian0001 on January 13, 2026 3:16PM0
This discussion has been closed.