Radiate77 wrote: »

100% agree.

Wizards Wardrobe and similar add-ons should also be restricted in trials and other leaderboard content.

My argument against this would be the reduction in set use-cases, as sets usually used for trash might join the giant pile of unused sets.

Artisian0001 wrote: »

You've claimed macro usage without proof. What you've described is just regular old optimized pre-buffing of skills.

No I didn't. I claimed a possibility.

Artisian0001 wrote: »

We're going to need proof that they've automated those skill presses. The reason why I am highly doubtful of any accusations of macro usage is because the game has global cooldowns on skillcasts and barswaps, cooldowns that are easily performed with regular human input.

A human is not as fast as good coding.

Somewhat circumstantial but on topic.

A bunch of guildies we were watching the stream and chatting about it on discord.

As soon as this change was announced this was literally the very first comment:



Unless restricted this will be mandatory, I think is folly to think otherwise.

in pug,it a good change,I can swap anything to help group and don't need spend many time to swap a skill line
but in hm trial trifectas this really bad

code65536 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

They don't use macros they use add-ons. There's a difference. Add-ons are allowed by the API and TOS. Macros are not.

The skill presses are done by the code - that's a macro.

You've claimed macro usage without proof. What you've described is just regular old optimized pre-buffing of skills.

We're going to need proof that they've automated those skill presses. The reason why I am highly doubtful of any accusations of macro usage is because the game has global cooldowns on skillcasts and barswaps, cooldowns that are easily performed with regular human input.

He's not claiming macro usage without proof; he just has a different definition of "macro" than you do, whereas you would consider something to be a macro only if it came from an outside source, he's considering any form of automation to be a "macro", regardless of source (and the associated implications of legitimacy).

Gabriel_H wrote: »

What is incorrect? A macro is something that automates skill presses. That's what the super-fast kill video groups tend to use.

He's claiming macros on skill presses, and addons can't activate skills. This definition, I am aligned on.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

You've claimed macro usage without proof. What you've described is just regular old optimized pre-buffing of skills.

No I didn't. I claimed a possibility.

HatchetHaro wrote: »

We're going to need proof that they've automated those skill presses. The reason why I am highly doubtful of any accusations of macro usage is because the game has global cooldowns on skillcasts and barswaps, cooldowns that are easily performed with regular human input.

A human is not as fast as good coding.

You claimed it was likely. Nevertheless, it is casting suspicion on those groups where it is unwarranted.

While a human is not as fast as a macro, the game, again, has global cooldowns for skillcasts and barswaps that no macro can bypass. There is also an input queue for skills and barswaps, so any non-same skill that you input before that global cooldown expires will get instantly cast as soon as that global cooldown expires. The global cooldown is approximately one second, and so if a human can press buttons faster than once per second (I suspect any able-bodied person easily can), they can be as fast as a macro in ESO.

code65536 wrote: »

But that distinction is not particularly relevant to his point, which is that such automations are a source of power that sets apart groups that use them from groups that do not.

We agree on this part. Gear-swapping and respecs can be easily automated through addons, and it is impossible to do them manually at the same speed.

Any bets on how long until Wizard's Wardrobe is updated for the free respecs?

As a note, just on PTS right now, addons are already able to respec without needing to be modified at all. Here is a video of Caros skill point saver running.

Sure with the timer it probably wont be used between every single trash pack, but it still can and almost definitely be exploited to swap between entirely different builds between trash and different bosses (ie pure single target for oax, pure aoe for trash, fire breath for bahsei, and pure single target for xal), since the group would save more time then they would 'lose' with the timer.

Same for cyrodiil, only in base.

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Some groups would argue that add sets are more important, like in Kyne’s for DB, where that last pull is rather nefarious.

That's more as failure of strategy than it is gear/build. The standard strat is far more dangerous than a less aggessive one, and saves all of 10 seconds at most.

Forest for the trees, Gabe.

Not really. If Min/Maxers are so obsessed about getting the most for the least effort, then they should learn better strategies.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[
You claimed it was likely. Nevertheless, it is casting suspicion on those groups where it is unwarranted.

No it isn't.

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[
While a human is not as fast as a macro, the game, again, has global cooldowns for skillcasts and barswaps that no macro can bypass. There is also an input queue for skills and barswaps, so any non-same skill that you input before that global cooldown expires will get instantly cast as soon as that global cooldown expires. The global cooldown is approximately one second, and so if a human can press buttons faster than once per second (I suspect any able-bodied person easily can), they can be as fast as a macro in ESO.

The GCD is precisely one second. The skill queue is at minus 400ms - no human is that precise.

A window of 400ms. A window of 400ms. No human is that precise? To hit a button anywhere between 0.6s and 1.0s after the previous button?

Do you know what that claim does if it was actually true? It destroys the very foundations of musical theory. The very simple concept of keeping a beat is now gone. You have defeated the very essence of music. Bach is a lie, Mozart is a fraud, and by the gods, even Beethoven is a macro.

I must retire from this horrifying revelation. Oh, it is too much to bear! Music. Is. Macros.

sarahthes wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Some groups would argue that add sets are more important, like in Kyne’s for DB, where that last pull is rather nefarious.

That's more as failure of strategy than it is gear/build. The standard strat is far more dangerous than a less aggessive one, and saves all of 10 seconds at most.

What is the "standard" strat? And what would you recommend instead? The entire pack pulls at once, you can't only pull half of it. And separating seems to create other risks as nearly every add in the pack does something dangerous in an aoe manner.

The standard is to stack all mobs next to the carts. This requires kiting in the infusers, so typically 2 others have to slot a taunt. It also takes some time to stack all mobs.

What I'd recommend, and know works: OT take the right raider and right infuser - easy enough for them to self heal all damage. MT taunts the Bulwark, Tidebreaker, Shaman, Knight and Infuser. Stacking on the Infuser position - group nukes then moves to the OT position.

Takes less than 10s to kill the Infuser/Raider. Between that and the time saving on not having to wait for the full stack in the standard it costs at most 10s extra.

Edit: You probably won't see that on any YouTube Channel, because I don't have one, and as far as I know I'm the only one who uses that strat.

It isn't dangerous to have someone taunt the infusers and bring them in, though. As someone who has cleared HM in all roles, with multiple DBs on everything but tank. Your strat probably works, but dps would drop significantly by having the group move, as ground dots would all need to be recast. In a low damage group that seems risky. You can get the damage needed to nuke on the cart just via ultimates and a couple ground dots, and if the people stacking are good at what they're doing that also takes care of the infusers.

I repeat: It costs 10s at most.

Edit: Oh and it doesn't probably work - it does work consistently.

Yea, I totaly agree with the OP, it will ruin the expirience for everyone doing group content, it will not be mandatory but will be the best choice possibile, thus making pressure to do ir.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Hey Folks,

And update to this. After the great feedback and discussing with @ZOS_Kira and her team, we will be restricting the use of the new UI respec feature in PVE Leaderboard content in the near future on PTS (and before the feature reaches live). We initially wanted to be more forgiving with the feature to gather feedback so thank you for all you provided.

Infinite Archive will continue to allow use of the UI Respec feature.

Again, thanks for all the feedback and keep it coming.

Huge win, thanks!

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

we will be restricting the use of the new UI respec feature in PVE Leaderboard

Thank you. And it's great to see swift public communication on this, too!

Keystroke wrote: »

is there some way we can opt-out of a scored content run? Many of us would like to make changes during a trial, and especially on console, it’s tedious to sit through load screens to go out and change things then come back in. Restrictions on armory are for protecting the integrity of leaderboard high scores being achieved without swapping things mid-run, but for most of us we aren’t going on the leaderboard and this restriction is just needless friction. So perhaps there could be a way to start a trial that isn’t a scored event so we can use such features without restriction?

Ideally, I think that the best solution is to add either a disincentive to using the respec (e.g., by having it cost vitality) or an incentive for not using it (e.g., the "Ironman" suggestion from the first page, where there's is a score bonus if respecs, skill changes, and gear changes are all disabled).

But I also expect that such solutions, while they would be better, would also take a lot more work, so I believe it would not be realistic to expect it to happen in U49. Maybe they can implement something like this in the future, at which point restrictions could go away, but until that happens, blocking the usage outright is probably the only option available in the short term.

code65536 wrote: »

I think what trials need is an "Ironman Mode" toggle. An item in the trial lobby that you can activate and deactivate as long as the trial timer hasn't started (obviously, it shouldn't be changeable once the timer starts).

If enabled, this will disable all respecs, lock down ability and CP bars, and lock down gear. No more changes to ability bars, no more changes to gear, and bring back the vitality cost for leaving the instance if you're in this mode.

In exchange for all those restrictions, you'll get a 40K score bonus (or some other number that's big enough to entice the score-pushing crowd).

Who would be a target audience of this? Majority of players that enjoy score pushing, speedrunning and trying for world records are also people that enjoy optimizing. It's part of eso and any other game where people speedrun and in almost every game, those players prefer categories that don't strictly lock your loadouts. Part of the fun is to find most optimal strategies using all tools available, restricting the tools leads to very stale experience which is boring.

Just for context, I've had some of the top scores across pretty much all trials and achieved multiple world records and speaking from experience, I don't think I've run into a single player that's into score pushing that would actually prefer this over what we have now. 40k is absurd amount of bonus score, to the point that you would beat most optimized records by just doing a run through with full vitality and comfortably at that. This would invalidate a lot of records and it wouldn't really make anything more interesting or engaging for already dwindling end game population.

code65536 wrote: »

• Add a kind of "extra hard mode" that some people have been wanting: being forced to do the entire trial with only one setup.

This doesn't feel like extra hard mode and more like less fun and more restrictive mode that also happens to (according to your suggestion) being the optimal mode to play if you want to score push. Most players trying to get trifectas, especially in newer content would struggle much more to achieve it, whereas top groups wouldn't struggle noticeably more but would essentially run into a content drought even sooner than now. With new set release or balance changes (assuming they are power positive) you can optimize parts of the trial better than before, this wouldn't be the case here. I don't see who this would really appeal to other than being a vanity system. Most casual players aren't skilled enough to clear HM in some cases even veteran modes with all tools available, players going for trifectas wouldn't want to complicate their already long journey and score pushers lose ability to optimize. I'm not even saying it wouldn't be fun to even have an option to play like that, but to have any extra score is just not it.

code65536 wrote: »

• Reduce some of the over-optimization that we're seeing at the very top (having something like 20 setups in Wizard's Wardrobe for a single trial).

Why is that a problem exactly? Players absolutely don't need to engage in that form of optimization and content isn't balanced around that. Moreover, most of that optimization is build around trash packs, which never has been particularly difficult part of any trial. Sure the last packs of KA, Trash before Bahsei or Last DSR trash can pose a threat to groups with lower dps, but let's be real, no top group is gonna struggle here, optimization isn't for safety, but for speed.

Most trials have only 3 bosses and maybe 1-2 mini bosses, even including prebuffs, that still leaves most of those setups as optimization for trash, which in some instances saves more time in trials than shorter boss fights.

Combined with first point, this basically makes all around generic setups best for such a design, which once again isn't fun for those that do optimize or want to (Those that' don't aren't forced to, because speed run timers haven't been a thing players really had to worry about since vSS).

Right now with current balance of the game, all that would happen is that you would have rune blades build with beam instead of trap/camo on front bar so you can kill trash efficiently. The next best options (depending on future balance changes_ would be beam builds or jab builds, something that can double up as both trash and boss spammable.The most optimal setups would essentially be Ansuul + Tide with velothi. This mode would be even more restrictive meta wise and offer nothing that you can't have right now. People aren't forced to optimize as is, and they definitely don't need to over optimize.

I will also state that in general thinking this would reduce gaps between top and bottom groups is flawed. Yes it would reduce it in a sense, there's less top groups can do to gain time on less optimized groups, but this also means that weaker groups need to account for things that they might not think about and need to compensate for certain mechanics with skill, increasing difficulty of certain aspects of the trial, which still wouldn't be any issue for top groups.

This post is getting really long, so I'll finish here, even though there's a lot more that could be said. I will say however, that I agree with your assessment on respecing in trials, at least as far as it would become a mandatory tool for score pushing and many groups would follow that example, simply because why not make something easier for yourself. I do think there could be some compromise to be made, so you wouldn't have to port out to respec at least subclasses. I do think respecing attributes and morphs should be allowed, if only because the abuse cases are much less severe and would be decent compromise.

I'll also add that it's nice to see zos reacting to feedback so quickly and that they are willing to change their minds. On top of that releasing it and then potentially taking it away in the future would be a very bad choice, it always feels bad to lose something that you previously had and in this case it 100% would have been something that would be used and become something we switch just like gear, cps and skills.

code65536 wrote: »

shukkig4 wrote: »

40k is absurd amount of bonus score, to the point that you would beat most optimized records by just doing a run through with full vitality and comfortably at that.

Yes, that's the whole point. In order for something like this to make sense, it would have to outscore anything that's done with current levels of optimization.

I figured that this was your intention, but then this again begs the question - who is this for? I genuinely don't know many score pushers who would ever care about it. This would effectively kill score push, at least for a lot of current score pushers and I doubt many mid tier players would jump in to fill the gaps. This would essentially lead to top players doing what some already do and simply do trifecta in a month and come back later when new content drops.

I also don't really see a reason to close the gap between trifecta chasers and score pushers. If anything, zos should focus on trying to bridge the gap between those that just get into raids and those that are doing trifectas. The gap there is just as big, but for a lot of players there's no clear path to improvement since you basically have to learn everything from other players or guides outside the game. Hopefully with vet difficulty for overland and some other changes to the game this will start changing.