The new respec system absolutely must be restricted in scored content

code65536 · January 12

Kira stated on stream that they don't want people to feel like mid-run respecs are necessary. If that is your goal (and it should be your goal), then you absolutely must restrict their use during scored content.

It should have the same restrictions as the armory assistant: You can use it before the timer starts and after the timer ends upon completion of the instance, but while the timer is running, you can't.

Subclassing should be a good guide for how players will treat this: The devs have said that subclassing is optional and that it only adds power and doesn't take away anything. But in practice, the fact that it adds power means that it is not actually optional. People who don't subclass will not perform as well as those who do, and as a result, they are effectively forced to do so if they want to keep up and carry their own weight. Even if there are no explicit orders from raid leads to subclass, people will feel that implicit pressure from not being able to keep up with their peers.

The exact same thing will happen with respecs. Even if there is no "toxic behavior" of people explicitly asking for players to do mid-run respecs, there will still be that pressure. And with subclassing, respecs are more powerful than ever before.

And yes, there already are addons that can do respecs with the click of a button if you are at a respec shrine, and I use them to change builds, subclassing, etc., in a few seconds. But addons are not the problem--they are an important time saver. And it's currently balanced because I need to port out to a respec shrine to do such a thing.

Unrestricted respecs, with the help of addons, WILL cause massive balance issues and WILL force people to engage this way (even if they are not being explicitly told to do so), and you MUST nip this in the bud by disallowing when the trial timer is running.

(On that note, please add an armory station to Infinite Archive and exempt IA from these restrictions. Why? Because IA is not timed. Because people already respec mid-IA run by porting outside because IA is not timed. Because the very nature of IA--with visions that drastically change how you play--necessitates changing your build as you progress. And because 12-person trials are already over-optimized by top-end players which is what leads to extraordinary power gaps between groups, which is not nearly as much of a problem in other content.)

@ZOS_Finn

Artisian0001 · January 12

You can already do this, this patch doesn't change anything. Just because you can doesn't mean people will find it to be a requirement. People go through vet trials doing less than 40k dps in 2026, so this is just untrue.

tomofhyrule · January 12

Absolutely.

People are already at the point where I'm seeing people ask for specific skill lines in a farm run. People are already being barred from groups because they're not running the "correct" skill lines that one person wants.

This will 100% lead to people demanding people change setups pull-by-pull. This is adding another ridiculously high barrier to running content.

If Grasharog is not allowed, neither should these respecs be.

code65536 · January 12

An alternate suggestion: The use of respec during a scored run will cost 1 vitality.

This way, groups that are learning the content can freely play around and make changes, but it will effectively remove this feature from usage for optimization.

HatchetHaro · January 12

code65536 wrote: »

An alternate suggestion: The use of respec during a scored run will cost 1 vitality.

This way, groups that are learning the content can freely play around and make changes, but it will effectively remove this feature from usage for optimization.

Cool idea; it'll for sure need an alert or just some chat message anytime someone does this, because if it's anonymous, someone can maliciously throw a trifecta run and get away with it scot-free.

M0R_Gaming · January 12

I think having free respecs would be fine, as long as there's some penalty so it's not abused. Like decrease the vit or something whenever a respec is done, similar to how PTEing used to be punished.

That way, people can still freely change builds in randoms/progs (similar to how people used to port out to swap to third healer for Ansuul), but it wouldn't affect the scorepush side of comp making, nor sort of "force" respeccing on the casual playerbase. Overall, respeccing in vet content would be really nice for progs like if you have the wrong morph of tenticular dread or vigor or something, but using the respec should have some penalty for score or time.

Treeshka · January 12

I can already think what i can change for free between encounters, without losing significant time. I think this should be restricted during trials and dungeons as well.

wolfie1.0. · January 12

code65536 wrote: »

An alternate suggestion: The use of respec during a scored run will cost 1 vitality.

This way, groups that are learning the content can freely play around and make changes, but it will effectively remove this feature from usage for optimization.

The trolls will have a field day with that....

salander7 · January 12

I think allowing subclassing changes only after vitality is zero is probably a simpler way. You prevent people from doing it "accidentally" and complain about not getting the tri, while it also gives a logic to the mechanism: "if you're struggling to clear, you can respec your subclassing", sort of.
It's true that nowadays you can PTE mid trash and come back for next boss with a completely different spec, but that's still letting your group w 11 players for a while, and it's one player, not all 12, that can do it.

In dungeons, you can use the armory anyway, and there's no rankings. While it could be more consistent for this to disable the no death achievement, the armory doesn't disable it either, so...

ZOS_Icy · January 12

Greetings,

We have removed some insulting back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team

Avran_Sylt · January 12

mmmmm.

Initially, I do not like that it abstracts the process away from in-game assets, but this is something you can already do either with Wizards Wardrobe as mentioned on PC, or via the Armory Assistant/Loadout Slots (my preference).

This does make it more accessible, and for the guilds that are going to be that sweaty will still stay that sweaty.

Artisian0001 · January 12

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

mmmmm.

Initially, I do not like that it abstracts the process away from in-game assets, but this is something you can already do either with Wizards Wardrobe as mentioned on PC, or via the Armory Assistant/Loadout Slots (my preference).

This does make it more accessible, and for the guilds that are going to be that sweaty will still stay that sweaty.

Exactly, if the top 1% of guilds doing record runs wants their group to run it, then let them do that, the vast majority won't care to implement it and the ones that do should be rewarded for it.

flizomica · January 12

I think it would be nice to have the option to swap morphs and attributes for anyone progging content - e.g. if you're in a situation where you might favor a morph with more survivability or sustain over another. I think it would be a shame to limit that functionality only due to what would become toxic behavior/additional requirements and expectations from high-end groups - which represent such a small minority of the playerbase.

MincMincMinc · January 12

Waiting to never be able to respec in pvp because im stuck in combat, wonderful.

How about the QoL change to force you out of combat and purge all debuffs if you haven't lost hp in 10s or so

Gabriel_H · January 12

Personally, I think all re-specs should be locked in trial content - including gear and skills. The content should be designed so that changing sets and skills is not necessary. Possibly have some leeway on the skills, with a limit on the number you can re-slot. I know RLs who require gear/skill changes from mob pack to mob pack, not just boss to boss or trash to boss.

You could balance it to allow for experimentation and progs and random PuGs by still allowing gear/skill changes BUT it bars achieveing speed, no death and trifecta runs.

Edit: Typos

Gabriel_H · January 12

Artisian0001 wrote: »

The VAST majority of people that do vet trials do not get policed on whether they are gear swapping and completely min maxxing.

The VAST majority of people that do vet HM trifectas do get policed.

code65536 · January 12

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

mmmmm.

Initially, I do not like that it abstracts the process away from in-game assets, but this is something you can already do either with Wizards Wardrobe as mentioned on PC, or via the Armory Assistant/Loadout Slots (my preference).

This does make it more accessible, and for the guilds that are going to be that sweaty will still stay that sweaty.

WW will change your gear and what you have slotted in your CP and ability bars. But it won't change your build. This is so much more powerful than that since you can switch subclasses and completely change your build.

And the problem with "I don't care what the sweaty people do" is that "what the sweaty people do" absolutely has an impact on you, because trials content has always been balanced around the power levels at the top, and the ever-increasing gap between what people who are optimizing every last detail and most players is what is leading to the newer hard modes becoming increasingly inaccessible to most players.

I.e., this causes balance issues that will affect everyone.

Soarora · January 12

I 100% agree that what happened with subclassing is what will happen with free respecs mid-content. I will once again say that subclassing is half the reason I quit trials. As a support, I would have no choice but to subclass because the only way to be effective is to give as many buffs as possible… which requires subclassing. As a DPS, I would have no choice but to subclass because subclassed DPS do more damage than pure class. Exactly what Code said, even if it’s not directly stated to be required, there’s the peer pressure.

Now granted, the way I play would have respeccing morphs for different encounters be fine. But as an anti-subclasser, I’m worried about changing entire skill lines between encounters, creating build whiplash (changes in passives altering sustain) and a complete loss of build control due to just how much someone else can optimize a roster.

M0R_Gaming · January 12

Artisian0001 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

You can already do this, this patch doesn't change anything. Just because you can doesn't mean people will find it to be a requirement. People go through vet trials doing less than 40k dps in 2026, so this is just untrue.

[snip]

[snip]

If you are talking about it from the perspective of the casual playerbase, then wouldn't loosing vitality (or only being able to use respecs at low vitality) or some other punishment be fine? The casual playerbase would still be able to use the QOL systems, while keeping this behaviour out of faster and more competitive content. Also, trials do not have armoury stations in them and never have.

Also, separate from this, but if this respec goes through, can we at least get the armoury assistant subject to the same restrictions as the respecs? Being able to respec but not being able to use an armoury which does the exact same thing in a more convenient way is stupid.
[edited to remove quote]

CameraBeardThePirate · January 12

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

The VAST majority of people that do vet trials do not get policed on whether they are gear swapping and completely min maxxing.

The VAST majority of people that do vet HM trifectas do get policed.

And? Vet HM Trifectas are the hardest content in the game; if you want to attempt them, you owe it to the other 11 people that are counting on you to do everything in your power to min-max your build.

Artisian0001 · January 12

M0R_Gaming wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

You can already do this, this patch doesn't change anything. Just because you can doesn't mean people will find it to be a requirement. People go through vet trials doing less than 40k dps in 2026, so this is just untrue.

[snip]

[snip]

If you are talking about it from the perspective of the casual playerbase, then wouldn't loosing vitality (or only being able to use respecs at low vitality) or some other punishment be fine? The casual playerbase would still be able to use the QOL systems, while keeping this behaviour out of faster and more competitive content. Also, trials do not have armoury stations in them and never have.

Also, separate from this, but if this respec goes through, can we at least get the armoury assistant subject to the same restrictions as the respecs? Being able to respec but not being able to use an armoury which does the exact same thing in a more convenient way is stupid.

What in your opinion is the actual downside to doing this considering that less than 1% of groups will make you respec like this in a run, and those that do already do similar things and are looking for any way in which they can get a faster clear? The casual people will not be forced into this ever, and the hardcore ones will benefit from it, what is the actual issue? All this would to is make an additional thing to code.
[edited to remove quote]

Artisian0001 · January 12

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

The VAST majority of people that do vet trials do not get policed on whether they are gear swapping and completely min maxxing.

The VAST majority of people that do vet HM trifectas do get policed.

And? Vet HM Trifectas are the hardest content in the game; if you want to attempt them, you owe it to the other 11 people that are counting on you to do everything in your power to min-max your build.

100% If you are there to do the hardest content, I would want every single person in my group to pull their weight.

Avran_Sylt · January 12

code65536 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

mmmmm.

Initially, I do not like that it abstracts the process away from in-game assets, but this is something you can already do either with Wizards Wardrobe as mentioned on PC, or via the Armory Assistant/Loadout Slots (my preference).

This does make it more accessible, and for the guilds that are going to be that sweaty will still stay that sweaty.

WW will change your gear and what you have slotted in your CP and ability bars. But it won't change your build. This is so much more powerful than that since you can switch subclasses and completely change your build.

And the problem with "I don't care what the sweaty people do" is that "what the sweaty people do" absolutely has an impact on you, because trials content has always been balanced around the power levels at the top, and the ever-increasing gap between what people who are optimizing every last detail and most players is what is leading to the newer hard modes becoming increasingly inaccessible to most players.

I.e., this causes balance issues that will affect everyone.

I mean I have Vamp/WW/Normal affliction setups in the armory, with various subclassing permutations and ability variants to swap between (My Ult-gen Build uses Soul Harvest, my PvP uses Incap). You can already do it, albeit through the Crown Store Armory system. (Never used Wizards Wardrobe, but I don't think it allows subclassing changes, currently).

I swap Subclasses/Afflictions/Morphs already with that system to give out nibbles or bites and depending on the content I'm doing (tanking/DPS/Solo/PvP). (Wizards Wardrobe can't do that).

Only thing is that I can't do that in PvP or in Combat

This change just makes it free and not paid.

Kyzeragon · January 12

Adding myself to the list of players concerned about the ramifications for vet trials. To be clear, I love the quality of life that the free and convenient respecs would bring, especially being able to ditch a subclassed line that is only being used for a certain encounter, but I don't think the proposed unrestricted nature of it is healthy for trials.

I agree with everything code said above about it being the implication; I'm not really worried about it being an explicit requirement (toxic players will find ways to be toxic regardless). It's the sheer accessibility that makes it potentially problematic, being able to swap on such a low cooldown absolutely means it is possible to have super-optimized setups on each pull, which you could not do before because it is so time-consuming, as others have mentioned.

It wouldn't only be scorepushers, either. I think things would trickle down to endgame, some even to midgame expectations for certain encounters. What I mean by this is not just trash vs boss setups, but roles too. Right now, casual/farm/prog runs don't have people changing roles very freely (Ansuul HM is the only common one that comes to mind), precisely because it's too much of a bother. But with unrestricted respecs, there are definitely encounters where, for example, the second tank would likely be phased out for an extra damage dealer. I can see strats like that eventually rippling out to even mid-game groups. Sure, you can have a tank doing off-dps currently on live servers, but it doesn't happen nearly as much because it's not fast to do a full respec (porting out and in), nor is switching only gear and CP as powerful as being able to spec fully into DPS. Now, is that a bad thing for casual/farm groups to become more optimized? Not necessarily when you look at it on a surface level, but if future encounters start becoming balanced around those expectations, well... I feel it should be mentioned for consideration, at least.

ninibini · January 12

This:

code65536 wrote: »

And the problem with "I don't care what the sweaty people do" is that "what the sweaty people do" absolutely has an impact on you, because trials content has always been balanced around the power levels at the top, and the ever-increasing gap between what people who are optimizing every last detail and most players is what is leading to the newer hard modes becoming increasingly inaccessible to most players.
I.e., this causes balance issues that will affect everyone.

code65536 · January 12

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Personally, I think all re-specs should be locked in trial content - including gear and skills. The content should be designed so that changing sets and skills is not necessary. Possibly have some leeway on the skills, with a limit on the number you can re-slot. I know RLs who require gear/skill changes from mob pack to mob pack, not just boss to boss or trash to boss.

You could balance it to allow for experimentation and progs and random PuGs by still allowing gear/skill changes BUT it bars achieveing speed, no death and trifecta runs.

Edit: Typos

I think what trials need is an "Ironman Mode" toggle. An item in the trial lobby that you can activate and deactivate as long as the trial timer hasn't started (obviously, it shouldn't be changeable once the timer starts).

If enabled, this will disable all respecs, lock down ability and CP bars, and lock down gear. No more changes to ability bars, no more changes to gear, and bring back the vitality cost for leaving the instance if you're in this mode.

In exchange for all those restrictions, you'll get a 40K score bonus (or some other number that's big enough to entice the score-pushing crowd).

This will...

Add a kind of "extra hard mode" that some people have been wanting: being forced to do the entire trial with only one setup.
Reduce some of the over-optimization that we're seeing at the very top (having something like 20 setups in Wizard's Wardrobe for a single trial).
Give people who just want achievements but don't care about competing for score the opportunity to engage with this power to make their life easier and to close the gap between them at the very top.

That will help take the edge off of some of the balance issues that we've been seeing in trials in recent years.

Gabriel_H · January 12

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

The VAST majority of people that do vet trials do not get policed on whether they are gear swapping and completely min maxxing.

The VAST majority of people that do vet HM trifectas do get policed.

And? Vet HM Trifectas are the hardest content in the game; if you want to attempt them, you owe it to the other 11 people that are counting on you to do everything in your power to min-max your build.

Irrelevant to the point I was making, plus a flawed premise. You owe it to your group to be as efficient as you can be. Min/Maxing is done on a spreadsheet to find the maximum potential - it does not mean everyone can meet that potential.

Everyone is different and has different interests and abilties. If someone find a playstyle boring, for example, they won't be as engaged, will likely die more, and won't be outputting at the maximum. A different build that they find more enjoyable and more engaging may yield better efficiency, so while they are below the maximum spreadsheet potential, their real world output is greater than it would be trying to meet that maximum.

M0R_Gaming · January 12

Artisian0001 wrote: »

M0R_Gaming wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

You can already do this, this patch doesn't change anything. Just because you can doesn't mean people will find it to be a requirement. People go through vet trials doing less than 40k dps in 2026, so this is just untrue.

[snip]

[snip]

If you are talking about it from the perspective of the casual playerbase, then wouldn't loosing vitality (or only being able to use respecs at low vitality) or some other punishment be fine? The casual playerbase would still be able to use the QOL systems, while keeping this behaviour out of faster and more competitive content. Also, trials do not have armoury stations in them and never have.

Also, separate from this, but if this respec goes through, can we at least get the armoury assistant subject to the same restrictions as the respecs? Being able to respec but not being able to use an armoury which does the exact same thing in a more convenient way is stupid.

What in your opinion is the actual downside to doing this considering that less than 1% of groups will make you respec like this in a run, and those that do already do similar things and are looking for any way in which they can get a faster clear? The casual people will not be forced into this ever, and the hardcore ones will benefit from it, what is the actual issue? All this would to is make an additional thing to code.

What would be the upside? Trifecta runs would be using it to swap entire builds between trash packs to optimize damage and speed, and it would add a full new barrier of entry to getting into hard content. Speaking from a raid lead perspective, having the ability to respec would make it extremely painful to coordinate and build a roster around, so the amount of raid leads will also probably decrease. It is also just very cringe overall, and takes away basically any character identity, similar to how subclassing destroyed most class identities.

Just to be clear, I see no issues with this QOL for casual vet or vet hardmode runs, but it is in the scored content which I see an issue with and an exploitation potential. A person casually walking through vDSR wouldn't be affected by it, but a person who is pushing for misery master should be affected.

Also, in terms of "making an additional thing to code", ZOS already has the code in the system and can easily implement it. They had a similar penalty for PTEing during combat a few updates ago after trifecta groups used the PTE functionality to skip mechanics in vLC xoryn room (fluctuating current).
[edited to remove quote]

Soarora · January 12

Artisian0001 wrote: »

M0R_Gaming wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

You can already do this, this patch doesn't change anything. Just because you can doesn't mean people will find it to be a requirement. People go through vet trials doing less than 40k dps in 2026, so this is just untrue.

[snip]

[snip]

If you are talking about it from the perspective of the casual playerbase, then wouldn't loosing vitality (or only being able to use respecs at low vitality) or some other punishment be fine? The casual playerbase would still be able to use the QOL systems, while keeping this behaviour out of faster and more competitive content. Also, trials do not have armoury stations in them and never have.

Also, separate from this, but if this respec goes through, can we at least get the armoury assistant subject to the same restrictions as the respecs? Being able to respec but not being able to use an armoury which does the exact same thing in a more convenient way is stupid.

What in your opinion is the actual downside to doing this considering that less than 1% of groups will make you respec like this in a run, and those that do already do similar things and are looking for any way in which they can get a faster clear? The casual people will not be forced into this ever, and the hardcore ones will benefit from it, what is the actual issue? All this would to is make an additional thing to code.

People sure love throwing out the 1% number in arguments. Every time, I read it as minimizing people by saying “it doesn’t matter, because I think you and everyone you play with is insignificant”. 1% is not a statistical number, you’ve pulled it out of nowhere.

It’s not like it’s only scorepushers that require optimization. Casual groups don’t, midgame does (even harder than endgame does, I think), endgame does with some wiggle room for if you know what you’re doing. Besides, don’t people have the right to be concerned over the content they do? It’s not taking anything away to add restrictions to respecs, casual groups aren’t respeccing mid-combat— they’re porting out to do it.

The restrictiveness of trials is enough of a problem that there’s people— casuals and several (but not all) dungeon endgamers alike, who avoid trials entirely. I don’t know where you’re finding these runs that let you do whatever.
[edited to remove quote]

Avran_Sylt · January 12

ninibini wrote: »

This:

code65536 wrote: »

And the problem with "I don't care what the sweaty people do" is that "what the sweaty people do" absolutely has an impact on you, because trials content has always been balanced around the power levels at the top, and the ever-increasing gap between what people who are optimizing every last detail and most players is what is leading to the newer hard modes becoming increasingly inaccessible to most players.
I.e., this causes balance issues that will affect everyone.

But you can already do this with the In-game Armory Assistant and enough purchased Armory slots.

(Well, this would also introduce such in PvP out of combat)

This makes it not cost IRL money, in addition to no in-game gold.

code65536 · January 12

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

ninibini wrote: »

This:

code65536 wrote: »

And the problem with "I don't care what the sweaty people do" is that "what the sweaty people do" absolutely has an impact on you, because trials content has always been balanced around the power levels at the top, and the ever-increasing gap between what people who are optimizing every last detail and most players is what is leading to the newer hard modes becoming increasingly inaccessible to most players.
I.e., this causes balance issues that will affect everyone.

But you can already do this with the In-game Armory Assistant and enough purchased Armory slots.

This makes it not cost IRL money, in addition to no in-game gold.

The armory assistant is disabled once the timer for scored content has started.