So, count me as someone firmly in the "4-person dungeons are the best content in the game" camp--each year's dungeon PTS is literally the most exciting moment of the year for me. So, yea, I'm pretty concerned that there are no new dungeons at all this year; after all, what good are QoL changes if there's no compelling content to play to experience those QoL changes?

Yes, there's a trial, but trials are... well, I've already given @ZOS_Finn earfuls about how awful trial balance is in recent years; there's too much need for optimization and their hard modes have become too out of reach for far too many people. I know some people like this, but I personally hate it, and the 4-person dungeons are a welcome contrast to the increasingly un-fun trials.

And yes, I see that there will be 4-person instances in the Night Market, but I am skeptical because the last time we had something like this--Bastion Nymics--it was underwhelming.

I've never been a fan of the "group" overland encounters like world bosses or incursion events, because the population is uncontrolled and because the mechanics are just not interesting. Try to kill a dragon solo? Good luck, that's a long and difficult slog that most players can't do. Try to kill a dragon during a zone event? Good luck trying to tag it with a hit before it dies in 15s. This is why instanced content where you are supposed to have X number of people are so much more interesting, because you get to actually experience these encounters with the ideal number of players, which rarely happens in the overland.

Okay, but why were Bastion Nymics, which did have a set player count, so boring? Because there's two more important elements that it lacked: roles and difficulty selection. You can't really design an interesting tank mechanic if you aren't sure you'll have a tank in the encounter! You can do Bastion Nymics with no tanks, for example. You can kill world bosses without tanks because a lot of times there just won't be a tank! And when you need to design an encounter so that it can be completed with no supports and only damage dealers, that really limits that kinds of mechanics that put into that encounter.

And of course, there's the difficulty setting. Set it on normal, and a group dungeon is just like a Bastion Nymic: you can go in with four DDs and just force your way through without really having to worry about mechanics. Set it to hard mode, and you can get the full-fat mechanics that properly and meaningfully challenge all three roles. The spectrum of player experience and skill is just far too wide for the kind of one-size-fits all approach to difficulty that Bastion Nymics had.

And that's why dungeons are fun and fulfilling while world bosses, incursions, and even Bastion Nymics are just boring, because the parameters--player count, role, and difficulty levels--of dungeon design allow for far more interesting and fulfilling encounters that you simply cannot achieve otherwise. Dungeons offer, by far, the best PvE combat content in this game. Period. And I just have a hard time seeing how the Night Market instances can possibly compare, if they're anything like Bastion Nymics.

(And not to mention that the Night Market is only a temporary thing that comes and goes. And this is supposed to be the "replacement' for proper 4-person dungeons? Bah.)

@code65536 Great point about why Bastion Nymics don’t hit right. I wanted to comment on why they don’t fulfill the dungeon niche despite being 4-man but I wasn’t actually sure why aside from the barrier to entry (having to kill the seekers to open the portal). It did briefly come to mind, the wonder if the Night Market will support tanks and healers or if the ideal group is all damage dealers outside of the 4 instances. Finn’s comment about beefed up overland trash packs is making me hungry to try tanking in there, to see if it’s a comparable experience to Black Gem or even trials. I suspect it’ll be like most dungeons where there’s 0-3 “big adds” in a pack. Overland style makes me lean towards 0.

Soarora wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

So it's not less, just different. One example that we haven't really talked about yet, but you will see when Night Market comes to the PTS this month, is there are three 4-Player instances (with 1 boss encounter) and one 12-player Trial encounter (1 boss) in that zone. We had a studio playtest today and we can also attest that the Night Market encounters are quite challenging! The Night Market is a unique experience and while it isn't a new dungeon or Trial, we think it'll scratch that same itch.

Thank you for the additional information on The Night Market! I’m glad to hear we weren’t forgotten about but I’m worried this will be another Bastion Nymic situation. Bastion Nymics are 4-person but they’re certainly not dungeons. For context on the kinds of things we do, my dungeon guild supports dungeons for pledges, challengers, hard mode progs, trifectas, motif farms (on hard mode) and mask farms (sometimes also on hard mode), but we also support Black Rose Prison and Infinite Archive.

I hope that the difficulty (at least optionally) will truly be high enough for those of us who do hard mode dungeons and it won’t just be a veteran level burnfest. I don’t expect Black Gem Foundry trifecta level of difficulty from a temporary event but something around Lep Seclusa Hard Mode would be nice.

If such HM difficulty is not optional (as in no easier version exists) this content will be out of reach for the majority of players. Many players (myself included) have never been in newer veteran DLC dungeons. All I can do is solo them on normal mode. And I do it normally just once for the story and lore books. For farming it's just pugging on normal.

Considering it's not permanent content and it has a nice house locked behind it, having just HM level challenge would be such a turn off.

Endgame players need content and this is replacing our dungeons for a whole year. If The Night Market doesn’t challenge us, that means we flat out get nothing this year except the regular mask farms. I would not advocate for any individual group of player, be it the casual quester, the hardcore PvPer, the trial trifecta-chaser, or the dungeoneer to lose out on content while other groups get content, even if that means there’s additions to the game that isn’t for all groups simultaneously. Either we all get our content or none of us should. Players like you are being given a solo mode for dungeons, players progressing through dungeons still have achievements to acquire and skills to gain, but at the mid-top (above progression but below speedrunning), we only have new dungeon releases.

I actually would prefer if they keep producing the dungeons because I like to solo them for the story and at my leisure. I do not really need the easier story mode since I can finish them by myself (and I like the challenge of doing it), but I do like that they are thinking about the people who cannot do it.

The event however should be open for more people rather than the elite few (as would be the case if HM mode was the only one available).

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

So it's not less, just different. One example that we haven't really talked about yet, but you will see when Night Market comes to the PTS this month, is there are three 4-Player instances (with 1 boss encounter) and one 12-player Trial encounter (1 boss) in that zone. We had a studio playtest today and we can also attest that the Night Market encounters are quite challenging! The Night Market is a unique experience and while it isn't a new dungeon or Trial, we think it'll scratch that same itch.

Thank you for the additional information on The Night Market! I’m glad to hear we weren’t forgotten about but I’m worried this will be another Bastion Nymic situation. Bastion Nymics are 4-person but they’re certainly not dungeons. For context on the kinds of things we do, my dungeon guild supports dungeons for pledges, challengers, hard mode progs, trifectas, motif farms (on hard mode) and mask farms (sometimes also on hard mode), but we also support Black Rose Prison and Infinite Archive.

I hope that the difficulty (at least optionally) will truly be high enough for those of us who do hard mode dungeons and it won’t just be a veteran level burnfest. I don’t expect Black Gem Foundry trifecta level of difficulty from a temporary event but something around Lep Seclusa Hard Mode would be nice.

Without going into too much detail (because you will see it soon on PTS), Night Market is a brand new type of zone that started with a group focus. There are activities solo players can do but they will be hard pressed to get to these activities without at least following groups of players around. The pack pulls you normally would see in overland are amped up here and there are lots of challenging monsters in the more open sections as well as the instanced sections. The goal is to give groups of players more activities in a dedicated zone where they can just go and have fun. For instance, one piece of internal feedback from someone that plays regularly in dungeon and trials was that they appreciated having activities for asymmetrical group comps. If you only have 5, 6, or 7 people online, you can jump in Night Market and have a good time.

Are. You. Kidding. Me.

That's the exact feedback I gave 10 years ago lol.

All the more reason to keep the Night Market around after the event!

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

There ARE instances though within that are capped at 4 players like dungeons (3) and 12 players (1). Much like dungeons and trials, you can enter solo but good luck

There should be a "hidden" achievement for soloing a 12 man instance. :-D

Soarora wrote: »

That said, I do wish we at least got one or updates to dungeon achievements (new side achievements, new rewards for old content, etc.)

Yes they could make Mountain God a title!

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Night Market is a brand new type of zone that started with a group focus.

“Night Market is a brand new type of temporary area that started with a group focus.”

“Zones” that come and go should be referenced as something other than what players know as traditional zones.

DeathStalker wrote: »

So if you are a solo player, just forget the night market and all its content, because it's not for solo players. How disappointing.

It was marketed as a group event zone from the beginning? I mean yes, it‘s a zone for groups. If you‘re good, you can do it solo. If not… get help.

SummersetCitizen wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

So it's not less, just different.

Yes, it is 100% less.

It is time gated to force “zone” participation when you cycle it in and out of availability.

Not sure how you all cannot see this or at least acknowledge it.

“Free” content that you yank away every couple months. Not a win for players. Old model was better.

7 weeks really is not time-gated. Especially when we know it’s scheduled to come back half a year later. 7 days, yes. But almost 2 months? Come on.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi all! We've seen some questions and concerns about no new group dungeons or a new story zone on the Seasons roadmap. While this is true, there is challenging PvE group content and new quest/story content coming to ESO this year. It's just not coming in the way of a dungeons DLC and a new zone, like it always has in the past. With Seasons, we'll be delivering more types of experiences that may look a little different than what we've done before (and that doesn't mean new dungeons or story zones are off the table forever for Seasons.)

Thanks for jumping in here, really appreciate it. Hard to navigate the rules and their enforcers here sometimes. So to be clear, there are no new dungeons. I think that's the core issue, and you've confirmed it. That being said, doesn't really sound like anyone here is spreading misinformation then. Thanks for clearing that up.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

So it's not less, just different. One example that we haven't really talked about yet, but you will see when Night Market comes to the PTS this month, is there are three 4-Player instances (with 1 boss encounter) and one 12-player Trial encounter (1 boss) in that zone. We had a studio playtest today and we can also attest that the Night Market encounters are quite challenging! The Night Market is a unique experience and while it isn't a new dungeon or Trial, we think it'll scratch that same itch.

I'm excited to see that new feature. But I'm just curious - what itch(es) do you guys think dungeons scratch? For me, they serve a few functions:

• Quick experience gain. They help me level skills and characters.
• Transmutes stones. Core reason for doing randoms at least.
• Gear Sets. As years have gone on, this has been less of a focus for me.
• Quick, queued, session-based PVE experiences with targeted roles baked into queueing.
• Doing something besides damage roles.

For Night Market to be rewarding (for me), it would need to satiate a few of those. If it has its own rewards, great, willing to meet you guys at that place. But, I would say experience gain, transmutes, and role diversity are still going to be things that people enjoy and seek out. Right now, transmutes especially don't have many sources, so it'd be nice to see them acquired in more places. It's a good idea to have universal rewards like transmutes come from these new activities. It's fine if they have unique rewards, just like IA, but still tie into the larger reward systems and people's broader goals.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

On the new quest and story side of things, similarly we do have new content coming between the Thieves Guild and Sheogorath major questlines, the Night Market (it also has a full story and quests) and new Trial, the High Seas of Tamriel in-game event, as well as new story content tied to systems, old and new, that we haven't expanded upon yet. The solo dungeons coming in Season Two will also provide a great opportunity for players who enjoy story and haven't yet had a chance to experience the dungeon stories before, starting with Moonhunter Keep and March of Sacrifices.

I'm so glad you guys picked those two, because no one wants to do them. For these Solo modes - is there any intention of monster helms or weapon drops? Are you going to balance that in a way that doesn't destroy randoms? Maybe another daily there? Like once a day, I get 5 transmutes by doing a random solo dungeon, while still being able to get 10 from a random group dungeon. This ties into my earlier comment about transmutes.

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Without going into too much detail (because you will see it soon on PTS), Night Market is a brand new type of zone that started with a group focus. There are activities solo players can do but they will be hard pressed to get to these activities without at least following groups of players around. The pack pulls you normally would see in overland are amped up here and there are lots of challenging monsters in the more open sections as well as the instanced sections. The goal is to give groups of players more activities in a dedicated zone where they can just go and have fun. For instance, one piece of internal feedback from someone that plays regularly in dungeon and trials was that they appreciated having activities for asymmetrical group comps. If you only have 5, 6, or 7 people online, you can jump in Night Market and have a good time.

That sounds exciting. So, if I'm a tank or healer, would I have a place in this zone? Or is it going to be a place where damage is king? Are we looking at various mechanics or just churn and burn?

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

The zone is open but with a smaller player cap and much harder content. We don’t force you to group to enter but to do the content, you will want to.

There ARE instances though within that are capped at 4 players like dungeons (3) and 12 players (1). Much like dungeons and trials, you can enter solo but good luck

Will there be any tie into the queue system?

twisttop138 wrote: »

Edit to add. If this is true then I think it's appropriate to have it leave.

I don’t think this is appropriate. Using live, player-facing content as a temporary testing ground points to deeper problems in planning and studio capacity.

If something is well received, ZOS can selectively bring it back. If it’s poorly received, it disappears, and with it any lasting accountability or opportunity for iteration. The result is not reliable, permanent content, but controlled exposure… where ZOS manages both player engagement and public perception.

What’s most frustrating is how this is framed as a player benefit. In reality, this approach primarily accommodates a studio that can no longer consistently deliver permanent, fully realized content at scale.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi all! We've seen some questions and concerns about no new group dungeons or a new story zone on the Seasons roadmap. While this is true, there is challenging PvE group content and new quest/story content coming to ESO this year. It's just not coming in the way of a dungeons DLC and a new zone, like it always has in the past. With Seasons, we'll be delivering more types of experiences that may look a little different than what we've done before (and that doesn't mean new dungeons or story zones are off the table forever for Seasons.)

So it's not less, just different. One example that we haven't really talked about yet, but you will see when Night Market comes to the PTS this month, is there are three 4-Player instances (with 1 boss encounter) and one 12-player Trial encounter (1 boss) in that zone. We had a studio playtest today and we can also attest that the Night Market encounters are quite challenging! The Night Market is a unique experience and while it isn't a new dungeon or Trial, we think it'll scratch that same itch.

On the new quest and story side of things, similarly we do have new content coming between the Thieves Guild and Sheogorath major questlines, the Night Market (it also has a full story and quests) and new Trial, the High Seas of Tamriel in-game event, as well as new story content tied to systems, old and new, that we haven't expanded upon yet. The solo dungeons coming in Season Two will also provide a great opportunity for players who enjoy story and haven't yet had a chance to experience the dungeon stories before, starting with Moonhunter Keep and March of Sacrifices.

Sure, it’s different.

But it’s less, too.

Compare - for example - the content we got the year of Summerset with what you did last year, or are planning this year. The contrast is extreme.

You’re not so much killing the game as recycling it until there’s nobody left to play.

I haven’t ever been so disappointed in a supposedly “new” direction of a game.

Im liking the sound of the Night Market but for experimental content that is only available for a few weeks I dont think it will live up to Dungeon content seeing its time gated.

Maybe think about leaving it up longer