Official Discussion Thread for "Leaping into the Dragonknight Class Refresh"

Radiate77 · January 11

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

My advice would be this, and it’s for anyone coming at these changes in a negative light, wait until Monday before posting your opinion.

A lot of people who don’t truly understand how these changes are going to shake out, are going to be very impressed with these changes.

Animations aside, as those are obviously a matter of taste. Personally, I like them.

Plenty of people DO understand, especially those who, like myself, have played for ten plus years as a dk main. What's to understand? It's written out. We can read the changes. So no, the more people that bring up the negative issues now, the more time the devs can have to fix them, if they will. Some changes are ok, some are just no brainer bad. I.E. eruption, which does no damage whatsoever in the damage skill line aka ardent flame. Also, deep breath makes no sense being there either. Let me cast an expensive skill to get sustain? Losing flames of oblivion sucks. New skill has twice the cost. Let's also not forget that they removed the ENTIRE stamdk kit. Poison morphs for stamdks? Nope, sorry, on your bike, all gone.

Am I going to be impressed with those changes? Spoiler alert. No.

What sustain problems are we talking about?
Ever since CP 3.0, they just don’t exist.

If you’re running out of resources on Dragonknight, you’re double-casting, have the wrong skills on, and/or rotating poorly, and all of those are very easy things to fix… which further hammers home the point that you can play the game for a decade and still have no idea how to parse.

All of the skills function better for the role designated to them and anyone with a theorycrafter’s vision could read those notes and see nothing but wins top-to-bottom.

Also want to add, there is no Damage line, there is no Tank line, in the very near future, no classes are going to have role-centric skill lines.

That is the entire purpose of this rework.

Personofsecrets · January 11

Radiate77 wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

My advice would be this, and it’s for anyone coming at these changes in a negative light, wait until Monday before posting your opinion.

A lot of people who don’t truly understand how these changes are going to shake out, are going to be very impressed with these changes.

Animations aside, as those are obviously a matter of taste. Personally, I like them.

Plenty of people DO understand, especially those who, like myself, have played for ten plus years as a dk main. What's to understand? It's written out. We can read the changes. So no, the more people that bring up the negative issues now, the more time the devs can have to fix them, if they will. Some changes are ok, some are just no brainer bad. I.E. eruption, which does no damage whatsoever in the damage skill line aka ardent flame. Also, deep breath makes no sense being there either. Let me cast an expensive skill to get sustain? Losing flames of oblivion sucks. New skill has twice the cost. Let's also not forget that they removed the ENTIRE stamdk kit. Poison morphs for stamdks? Nope, sorry, on your bike, all gone.

Am I going to be impressed with those changes? Spoiler alert. No.

Also want to add, there is no Damage line, there is no Tank line, in the very near future, no classes are going to have role-centric skill lines.

That is the entire purpose of this rework.

And this specific point will be remembered as a bad change.

s3dulo · January 11

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

My advice would be this, and it’s for anyone coming at these changes in a negative light, wait until Monday before posting your opinion.

A lot of people who don’t truly understand how these changes are going to shake out, are going to be very impressed with these changes.

Animations aside, as those are obviously a matter of taste. Personally, I like them.

Plenty of people DO understand, especially those who, like myself, have played for ten plus years as a dk main. What's to understand? It's written out. We can read the changes. So no, the more people that bring up the negative issues now, the more time the devs can have to fix them, if they will. Some changes are ok, some are just no brainer bad. I.E. eruption, which does no damage whatsoever in the damage skill line aka ardent flame. Also, deep breath makes no sense being there either. Let me cast an expensive skill to get sustain? Losing flames of oblivion sucks. New skill has twice the cost. Let's also not forget that they removed the ENTIRE stamdk kit. Poison morphs for stamdks? Nope, sorry, on your bike, all gone.

Am I going to be impressed with those changes? Spoiler alert. No.

Agreed. Is it too much to ask to make the damage skill line actually awesome at damage??? Instead they are turning a unique, valuable, and cheap skill like flames of oblivion and doubling the cost for a soul burst effect. Then they are removing fiery breath, the major breach source? It would be so easy to make Ardent flame an appealing damage skill line on par with Aedric or assassination but instead it seems like it's being gutted.

Give Ardent flame a stun, give it mobility, improve damage through passives, give it an actual burst ultimate like Leap. Make it skill line anyone would have a hard time passing on in favor of other damage lines.

Zos has been talking a lot about listening to the community so I hope they listen to the dk mains on this instead of changing popular skills that nobody was complaining about

Radiate77 · January 11

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

My advice would be this, and it’s for anyone coming at these changes in a negative light, wait until Monday before posting your opinion.

A lot of people who don’t truly understand how these changes are going to shake out, are going to be very impressed with these changes.

Animations aside, as those are obviously a matter of taste. Personally, I like them.

Plenty of people DO understand, especially those who, like myself, have played for ten plus years as a dk main. What's to understand? It's written out. We can read the changes. So no, the more people that bring up the negative issues now, the more time the devs can have to fix them, if they will. Some changes are ok, some are just no brainer bad. I.E. eruption, which does no damage whatsoever in the damage skill line aka ardent flame. Also, deep breath makes no sense being there either. Let me cast an expensive skill to get sustain? Losing flames of oblivion sucks. New skill has twice the cost. Let's also not forget that they removed the ENTIRE stamdk kit. Poison morphs for stamdks? Nope, sorry, on your bike, all gone.

Am I going to be impressed with those changes? Spoiler alert. No.

Also want to add, there is no Damage line, there is no Tank line, in the very near future, no classes are going to have role-centric skill lines.

That is the entire purpose of this rework.

And this specific point will be remembered as a bad change.

Well, if you look back not too long ago here, there was already an attempt to isolate skill lines into specific role balancing, as we saw when Lightning Form lost Major Resolve for Minor Force lasting all of a week before it was added back due to backlash.

I tried to push back on this as I felt that pushing skill lines into one to two roles, like Damage & Movement on Stormcalling, would help strengthen identity rather than keep it diluted, and got ratio’d harder than I think anyone on this forum has ever. 😂

People are not willing to sacrifice to achieve that vision, and there’s no way that it could be done without sacrificing our favorite skills on the altar of balance, so ZOS took a 180 and are going the other way with it, and rightly so.

Most people want to have skill lines with versatility, and while I personally feel like a jack of all trades is a master of none, that 50 to 5 I had on the original post spoke volumes about what everyone else wanted.

irstarkey57 · January 11

If you’re running out of resources on Dragonknight, you’re double-casting, have the wrong skills on, and/or rotating poorly, and all of those are very easy things to fix… which further hammers home the point that you can play the game for a decade and still have no idea how to parse.

.

That is the entire purpose of this rework.[/quote]

You can assume I don't know what I'm doing all you want. DK's having sustain issues is a widely agreed upon sentiment. There are way bigger issues than sustain alone, as listed in my previous post. If you think dummy humping is the way to measure these changes, well, lol. I guess this further hammers home the point that you can play the game for x amount of time and still have no idea what it's like to play in all the different content the game has to offer. cyro, bgs, dungeons, arenas, etc, etc. But hey, I hear dk is going to be really good at housing, enjoy!

Earnest_Victory · January 11

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

Storm Voice- makes zero sense for the dragonknight class. That seems like a sorcerer passive name. Voice of the Dragon would be better thematically

The Storm Voice has been one of the names for the Thu'um since Morrowind at the latest.

irstarkey57 · January 11

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Finally, DK's very much need help with sustain. I mean, just look at the costs of the skills. At least bring battle roar back to its pre nerf numbers if you don't do anything else for helping sustain.

They are, did you read the notes?

Battle Roar now scales off of how many Dragonknight skills you have slotted.

You get 6 more value per Dragonknight skill, so if you have 7, you have 58 total per.

DID YOU? please tell me which skills in this tree will entice you do pick this skill line. Wing Buffet? lmao. the fact that they took two damage skills away from the damage skill line aka ardent flame, and put them in draconic power is just dumb. like, what? the way these skills and passives are shuffled, no one is using dk in subclassing. if you decide not to subclass as a dk and use all the skill lines...gl and hf lol.

Coming from a PvP perspective (which I know is different to PvE), Draconic power now looks extremely enticing to run, not only on a Pure DK or DK base with Ardent Flame and Pyrebrand, but even sub-classed into another class on par with something like Animal Companions (assuming the numbers line up).

AoE incap that can't be purged (leaps unique and stacking damage done buff that works with named buffs like major berserk)
DK wings that gives speed, snare immunity, a stun and 50% ranged damage mitigation (basically better warden wings now)
A source of Major breach ("stam" breath) on a decent AoE that can be spammed in a pinch
AoE coag (means I can swap heal soul to something else for more utility while keeping a very strong heal that can also heal allies)
Chains grants Major evasion and Major berserk, 2 extremely powerful named buffs
Minor brutality (finally a way to damage stack instead of crit stack)
unique buffs to all AoEs and DoTs, not just DK AoEs and DoTs
battle roar (even toned down it's still a very strong passive and with how good the active skills potentially are, it will be close to current values just from this line alone, even on sub-classed builds)

Earthen Heart seems less enticing on a sub-classed build, but with the changes to corrosive shifting it back to (almost) how it used to be, I can see an extremely nasty pyrebrand + relequen + zaan DoT build that will melt enemies just like the old (pre-fix) savage werewolf procsorc builds used to back in U34. Especially if ZOS improves igneous weapons by making it proc burning status on every light/heavy attack instead of the single DoT tick, that way it synergizes better with ardent flame/draconic power passives. Shatterspike mantle seems very disgusting to add onto such a build, essentially being a mini-draugrkin (5 piece set) on the armor buff which can stack to some ridiculous numbers in PvP with how many DoTs/damage instances can potentially be stacked up via the aforementioned sets. The main downside I see in this line is the avalanche passive, it ramps too slowly and falls off too quickly to be effective in a practical sense.

Ardent flame seems the least enticing to me now, but it does grant major prophecy/savagery (best named buff) on a pseudo solar barrage (assuming it stays as an AoE over time ability like current FoO is) and whip being much easier to synergize with off-balance (although this could have been a 15 second cooldown instead of 20 seconds). There's also the health based HoT and there have been numerous complaints about health based heals in the past, so we all know how strong those are in PvP.

This doesn't mean I like every change and I have many other issues with the DK changes put forward (especially the removal of poison damage typing for stamDK and what that potentially means for future class reworks), but I can see that DK will definitely be a meta contender in PvP (again, depending on the numbers and other changes we see on the PTS/patch notes on Monday) and draconic power will definitely be a top tier sub-classing line to pick up for PvP (maybe even worth considering in PvE depending on the numbers) with the other 2 lines having some really nice effects/bonuses for not only pure DK, but any DK base and the fact they synergize much better together for a pure DK build (or DK with 1 sub-classed line) than they do with other class lines on a full sub-classed build is something many players have asked for since U46 to bring pure classes up to par with sub-classed builds.

It's definitely not a neat and tidy split of the lines into the 3 roles and (imo) that was/is the intent behind the class reworks (to make all classes similar to Sorcerer where the lines all have a mix of abilities for every role but provide more buffs to their respective pure classes than they will when sub-classed). I wish ZOS had done this before releasing sub-classing because these reworks seem designed to make sub-classing a real choice in engaging with the system or not based on playstyle, unique effects and themes, instead of being the current mindless swap out the 2 useless lines for my chosen role to sub in the BiS meta lines in their place.

TL//DR:
The DK changes, while definitely not perfect, and do bring some pressing issues I hope ZOS will clarify for future class reworks, do have some very strong arguments for sub-classing into (especially the previously unusable draconic power line), and definitely buff pure DK beyond just keeping 1 line for a given role then swapping out other lines for better lines from other classes. It does remain to be seen though what the actual numbers/tooltips are when we get a chance to see them on Monday to see if the numbers stack up to make the changes worth it.

I mostly agree with what you are saying. Hard for me, or at least very time consuming for me to differentiate when im talking about pvp/pve. I do agree that for pvp, a lot of the new changes look great. I've been wanting wings to be the warden wings for years now. finally they are, with their own cool get off me aspect. realllly wish they had minor force though to completely get away from race against time.

Turtle_Bot · January 11

I think what the class refresh will come down to is just people needing to adapt to no longer being able to stack 3 pure DPS lines or 3 pure tank lines or 3 pure heal/support lines to essentially build the ultimate/perfect build for each role and have to look into picking lines for their role based on class, theme and utility rather than just raw power. Hard to do considering that we basically got given the option to make god-mode builds in U46 thanks to sub-classing and nobody likes losing power, especially when the power is so massive, but as long as the classes can be done in a way that makes pure classes and sub-classed builds roughly on par with each other without completely ruining either it should work out for the better in the long run.

My overall thoughts on the DK rework (general sense now, not PvP specific), there's some things there I like, some things that are definitely interesting and need testing on PTS, some things I don't like and some things that have me very concerned for reworks to other classes.

My biggest concern is the removal of poison damage type to fit the DK class into ZOS's written blurb about DK from their pre-reveal last year. It has me extremely concerned as a Sorc main for the Sorcerer rework as ZOS's blurb for sorcerer was essentially just "more pets" despite the pets being the most complained about (disliked) aspect of the Sorcerer class (for a variety of reasons, not just gameplay but visual clutter, targeting disruption, playstyle, etc.) and the only real reason the pets are so common in-game is because the other 2 sub-themes have never been shown proper love and care they needed to keep up, especially in PvE.

Meridiano · January 11

So, there is no longer a damage-dedicated line for DK, but there are still such lines for other classes, and it will be so for over a year. Templar-Nightblade-Arcanist triune will be adjusted no earlier than 2027.

This means, if I subclass into DK's Ardent Flame for damage in 2026, I lose my value as a damage dealer. Not to say pure DK still underperforms a lot, because it's... pure. You say I will be valuable for the Standart group buff? Yeah, maybe, but this pushes DK into the "support slave" role even more. No good damage allowed for you personally.

Sustain issues for mag DKs is something I hear from time to time, but I'm not a mag DK, sorry. I'm a stam DK, and it's terrible too haha! Breath is over. Incinerate is almost double expensive in magicka. What would be the 3rd DoT to gain the Whip buff regularly? None! Because Hearthfire is not a damage ability, and Core of Flame is not a DoT.

You do understand why I can't use Core of Flame as the 3rd Ardent Flame regular ability, right? Because having a spammable + as many DoTs as possible is where the damage comes from. The only 2 cases when DoTs are replaced are A: flex slot for Vigor or something B: much stronger skill that worth the whole slot. There are no infinite slots, only 10 of them. And the best slots are the front bar where you cast a spammable, so, Assassination and Herald of the Tome are there permanently. They are BiS, period.

My personal conclusions.
1. If you pick Ardent Flame in subclassing for damage, your group underperforms.
2. If you go the pure DK route, your group underperforms even more.
3. This is critical because you don't clear the group content, your group does. If you don't participate in group content, what are you doing here? You can grab random abilities and gear - and you are good to go, zone quests await you. You have nothing to contribute to the discussion about the power-balance.
4. This will not change until 2027 at the very least.

And, guys. We all know the changes will go live, right? Maybe numbers will be adjusted during PTS. But that's it. DK DD will not be welcomed in progression groups in 2026.

Radiate77 wrote: »

in the very near future

Lol. Lmao, even.

irstarkey57 · January 11

Meridiano wrote: »

So, there is no longer a damage-dedicated line for DK, but there are still such lines for other classes, and it will be so for over a year. Templar-Nightblade-Arcanist triune will be adjusted no earlier than 2027.

This means, if I subclass into DK's Ardent Flame for damage in 2026, I lose my value as a damage dealer. Not to say pure DK still underperforms a lot, because it's... pure. You say I will be valuable for the Standart group buff? Yeah, maybe, but this pushes DK into the "support slave" role even more. No good damage allowed.

Sustain issues for mag DKs is something I hear from time to time, but I'm not a mag DK, sorry. I'm a stam DK, and it's terrible too haha! Breath is over. Incinerate is almost double expensive in magicka. What would be the 3rd DoT to gain the Whip buff regularly? None! Because Hearthfire is not a damage ability, and Core of Flame is not a DoT.

You do understand why I can't use Core of Flame as the 3rd Ardent Flame regular ability, right? Because having a spammable + as many DoTs as possible is where the damage comes from. The only 2 cases when DoTs are replaced are A) flex slot for Vigor or something much stronger skill that worth the whole slot. There are no infinite slots, only 10 of them. And the best slots are the front bar where you cast a spammable, so, Assassination and Herald of the Tome are there permanently. They are BiS, period.

My personal conclusions.
1. If you pick Ardent Flame in subclassing for damage, your group underperforms.
2. If you go the pure DK route, your group underperforms even more.
3. This is critical because you don't clear the group content, your group does. If you don't participate in group content, what are you doing here? You can grab random abilities and gear - and you are good to go, zone quests await you. You have nothing to contribute to the discussion about the power-balance.
4. This will not change until 2027 at the very least.

And, guys. We all know the changes will go live, right? Maybe numbers will be adjusted during PTS. But that's it. DK will not be welcomed in progression groups in 2026.

Radiate77 wrote: »

in the very near future

Lol. Lmao, even.

yep, this 100 percent.

shadoza · January 11

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official discussion thread for, "Leaping into the Dragonknight Class Refresh"

"Delve into the (earthen) heart of the major changes and improvements coming to the Dragonknight Class."

"To capture that feeling of building and erupting power, combat should reinforce rotations and a cycle with more clearly represented highs and lows." ==> requiring cycles and rotations to play a class well makes it feel more like repetitive line work than participating in a fight. Why can't we have the attacks/defenses work well alone? Having the right attack/defense for the moment takes a lot more play skill than punching out a sequence in cycles.

Djiku · January 11

So many changes. Probably not all for the better but we will get the chance to test them out soon. Personally I don't care much that poison will be removed from the toolkit. I know there are poison dragons but fire is just more fitting, in my opinion. I could imagine nightblade getting poison instead then.
The animations that were shown look very good. I don't mind them being updatet as long as they play good and don't feel clunky.
I will defintely try out the new DK on PTS next week.

Personofsecrets · January 11

Meridiano wrote: »

So, there is no longer a damage-dedicated line for DK, but there are still such lines for other classes, and it will be so for over a year. Templar-Nightblade-Arcanist triune will be adjusted no earlier than 2027.

This means, if I subclass into DK's Ardent Flame for damage in 2026, I lose my value as a damage dealer. Not to say pure DK still underperforms a lot, because it's... pure. You say I will be valuable for the Standart group buff? Yeah, maybe, but this pushes DK into the "support slave" role even more. No good damage allowed for you personally.

Sustain issues for mag DKs is something I hear from time to time, but I'm not a mag DK, sorry. I'm a stam DK, and it's terrible too haha! Breath is over. Incinerate is almost double expensive in magicka. What would be the 3rd DoT to gain the Whip buff regularly? None! Because Hearthfire is not a damage ability, and Core of Flame is not a DoT.

You do understand why I can't use Core of Flame as the 3rd Ardent Flame regular ability, right? Because having a spammable + as many DoTs as possible is where the damage comes from. The only 2 cases when DoTs are replaced are A: flex slot for Vigor or something B: much stronger skill that worth the whole slot. There are no infinite slots, only 10 of them. And the best slots are the front bar where you cast a spammable, so, Assassination and Herald of the Tome are there permanently. They are BiS, period.

My personal conclusions.
1. If you pick Ardent Flame in subclassing for damage, your group underperforms.
2. If you go the pure DK route, your group underperforms even more.
3. This is critical because you don't clear the group content, your group does. If you don't participate in group content, what are you doing here? You can grab random abilities and gear - and you are good to go, zone quests await you. You have nothing to contribute to the discussion about the power-balance.
4. This will not change until 2027 at the very least.

And, guys. We all know the changes will go live, right? Maybe numbers will be adjusted during PTS. But that's it. DK DD will not be welcomed in progression groups in 2026.

Radiate77 wrote: »

in the very near future

Lol. Lmao, even.

Boom

ivaylo.krumoveb17_ESO · January 11

Radiate77 wrote: »

Cobble123 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Might be now.

The best tanks provide damage to their groups, and the new Standard is a LOT of damage.

Until they change the new buff to Major Courage in 3 months time, like they eventually do with every other un-named buff.

I don’t know, it’s a new team, so we’ll just have to see when we get there.

New team? What new team? We still have Brian Wheeler on the wheel of combat design and he has proven more than once that he doesn't understand even the core mechs of the game... I don't expect anything good from this "new" team.

Radiate77 · January 11

ivaylo.krumoveb17_ESO wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Cobble123 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Might be now.

The best tanks provide damage to their groups, and the new Standard is a LOT of damage.

Until they change the new buff to Major Courage in 3 months time, like they eventually do with every other un-named buff.

I don’t know, it’s a new team, so we’ll just have to see when we get there.

New team? What new team? We still have Brian Wheeler on the wheel of combat design and he has proven more than once that he doesn't understand even the core mechs of the game... I don't expect anything good from this "new" team.

A lot of people have been shuffled around at the studio and put into the right spots for the future of the game, including our game director and studio head, who have final say on any suggestions.

Personofsecrets · January 11

Radiate77 wrote: »

ivaylo.krumoveb17_ESO wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Cobble123 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Might be now.

The best tanks provide damage to their groups, and the new Standard is a LOT of damage.

Until they change the new buff to Major Courage in 3 months time, like they eventually do with every other un-named buff.

I don’t know, it’s a new team, so we’ll just have to see when we get there.

New team? What new team? We still have Brian Wheeler on the wheel of combat design and he has proven more than once that he doesn't understand even the core mechs of the game... I don't expect anything good from this "new" team.

A lot of people have been shuffled around at the studio and put into the right spots for the future of the game, including our game director and studio head, who have final say on any suggestions.

Despite the massive cut to its workforce, Xbox’s expectations of the Elder Scrolls Online studio haven’t wavered. It’s alleged that a third of the workers that were keeping its project running smoothly were cut, according to ZeniMax Media senior QA tester and ZWU-CWA union member Autumn Mitchell.

“This carcass of workers that remains is somehow supposed to keep shipping award-winning games,” Mitchell said. “I don’t really know [how that works]. It looks like a lot of people moving between projects to fill in the position of someone who was laid off—and it probably took them a good six months to figure out [how to do that role effectively].”

Mitchell described the studio as “decimated” by Microsoft’s savage cuts to staff. Massive plans for Elder Scrolls Online that were in place to satiate player demands may now take much longer to bring into reality as “it’s going to take a lot of time to regroup and get those projects running smoothly again”.

“Morale is terrible,” Mitchell stated. “It’s grotesque. People are stressed. They’re crying. For a lot of us, those were some of our best friends. They’re our roommates. In my case it was my partner—my partner and I worked together and he was laid off. And I’m not a unique story.”

The developer explained that many employees had “to rush to type a goodbye message into Slack to their colleagues” that had been working at the studio for fifteen years. Page Branson, another ZWU-CWA member and ESO developer explained that Microsoft will likely never be able to regain the trust of its employees.

This reporting draws qustions towards the work load that the team faces. Maybe there are some people who are just now starting to get comfortable in their new roles. Maybe some of the experience of those who were cut is missed.

Radiate77 · January 11

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

ivaylo.krumoveb17_ESO wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Cobble123 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Might be now.

The best tanks provide damage to their groups, and the new Standard is a LOT of damage.

Until they change the new buff to Major Courage in 3 months time, like they eventually do with every other un-named buff.

I don’t know, it’s a new team, so we’ll just have to see when we get there.

New team? What new team? We still have Brian Wheeler on the wheel of combat design and he has proven more than once that he doesn't understand even the core mechs of the game... I don't expect anything good from this "new" team.

A lot of people have been shuffled around at the studio and put into the right spots for the future of the game, including our game director and studio head, who have final say on any suggestions.

Despite the massive cut to its workforce, Xbox’s expectations of the Elder Scrolls Online studio haven’t wavered. It’s alleged that a third of the workers that were keeping its project running smoothly were cut, according to ZeniMax Media senior QA tester and ZWU-CWA union member Autumn Mitchell.

“This carcass of workers that remains is somehow supposed to keep shipping award-winning games,” Mitchell said. “I don’t really know [how that works]. It looks like a lot of people moving between projects to fill in the position of someone who was laid off—and it probably took them a good six months to figure out [how to do that role effectively].”

Mitchell described the studio as “decimated” by Microsoft’s savage cuts to staff. Massive plans for Elder Scrolls Online that were in place to satiate player demands may now take much longer to bring into reality as “it’s going to take a lot of time to regroup and get those projects running smoothly again”.

“Morale is terrible,” Mitchell stated. “It’s grotesque. People are stressed. They’re crying. For a lot of us, those were some of our best friends. They’re our roommates. In my case it was my partner—my partner and I worked together and he was laid off. And I’m not a unique story.”

The developer explained that many employees had “to rush to type a goodbye message into Slack to their colleagues” that had been working at the studio for fifteen years. Page Branson, another ZWU-CWA member and ESO developer explained that Microsoft will likely never be able to regain the trust of its employees.

This reporting draws qustions towards the work load that the team faces. Maybe there are some people who are just now starting to get comfortable in their new roles. Maybe some of the experience of those who were cut is missed.

Yeah that sounds horrible, they never should have had to deal with all of that on such short notice.

From our year road map, things look much better than they have been in a while, and for those of us who are tired of the formulaic design of Chapters, a focus on existing systems will improve the core of the game and create that foundation necessary to last another decade.

Which leads back into our class reworks, right?
At present, balance is a huge issue. People want every skill line to be comparable, and in order to do that, they all need to have something for everyone.

Earthen Heart can appeal to a damage dealer now, and so can Draconic Power. While these skill lines might not be meta by themselves, they have at least some value to bring to the table… and when all of our reworks are done, the margin of difference between each skill line will be severely less than present.

Lord_Hev · January 11

irstarkey57 wrote: »

If you’re running out of resources on Dragonknight, you’re double-casting, have the wrong skills on, and/or rotating poorly, and all of those are very easy things to fix… which further hammers home the point that you can play the game for a decade and still have no idea how to parse.

That is the entire purpose of this rework.

You can assume I don't know what I'm doing all you want. DK's having sustain issues is a widely agreed upon sentiment. There are way bigger issues than sustain alone, as listed in my previous post. If you think dummy humping is the way to measure these changes, well, lol. I guess this further hammers home the point that you can play the game for x amount of time and still have no idea what it's like to play in all the different content the game has to offer. cyro, bgs, dungeons, arenas, etc, etc. But hey, I hear dk is going to be really good at housing, enjoy!

I only play pureclass. My magdk had easy sustain before subclassing update. Now after all the changes, I've gotten so fed up having to heavy attack in content due to being starved for magicka that I slapped on a mag regen glyph. And this is also with me going with 4 or even 5 light armor. Before I was able to magdk parse with very comfortable sustain in 5 medium. All same exact rotation.

Personofsecrets · January 11

Radiate77 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

ivaylo.krumoveb17_ESO wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Cobble123 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Might be now.

The best tanks provide damage to their groups, and the new Standard is a LOT of damage.

Until they change the new buff to Major Courage in 3 months time, like they eventually do with every other un-named buff.

I don’t know, it’s a new team, so we’ll just have to see when we get there.

New team? What new team? We still have Brian Wheeler on the wheel of combat design and he has proven more than once that he doesn't understand even the core mechs of the game... I don't expect anything good from this "new" team.

A lot of people have been shuffled around at the studio and put into the right spots for the future of the game, including our game director and studio head, who have final say on any suggestions.

Despite the massive cut to its workforce, Xbox’s expectations of the Elder Scrolls Online studio haven’t wavered. It’s alleged that a third of the workers that were keeping its project running smoothly were cut, according to ZeniMax Media senior QA tester and ZWU-CWA union member Autumn Mitchell.

“This carcass of workers that remains is somehow supposed to keep shipping award-winning games,” Mitchell said. “I don’t really know [how that works]. It looks like a lot of people moving between projects to fill in the position of someone who was laid off—and it probably took them a good six months to figure out [how to do that role effectively].”

Mitchell described the studio as “decimated” by Microsoft’s savage cuts to staff. Massive plans for Elder Scrolls Online that were in place to satiate player demands may now take much longer to bring into reality as “it’s going to take a lot of time to regroup and get those projects running smoothly again”.

“Morale is terrible,” Mitchell stated. “It’s grotesque. People are stressed. They’re crying. For a lot of us, those were some of our best friends. They’re our roommates. In my case it was my partner—my partner and I worked together and he was laid off. And I’m not a unique story.”

The developer explained that many employees had “to rush to type a goodbye message into Slack to their colleagues” that had been working at the studio for fifteen years. Page Branson, another ZWU-CWA member and ESO developer explained that Microsoft will likely never be able to regain the trust of its employees.

This reporting draws qustions towards the work load that the team faces. Maybe there are some people who are just now starting to get comfortable in their new roles. Maybe some of the experience of those who were cut is missed.

Yeah that sounds horrible, they never should have had to deal with all of that on such short notice.

From our year road map, things look much better than they have been in a while, and for those of us who are tired of the formulaic design of Chapters, a focus on existing systems will improve the core of the game and create that foundation necessary to last another decade.

Which leads back into our class reworks, right?
At present, balance is a huge issue. People want every skill line to be comparable, and in order to do that, they all need to have something for everyone.

Earthen Heart can appeal to a damage dealer now, and so can Draconic Power. While these skill lines might not be meta by themselves, they have at least some value to bring to the table… and when all of our reworks are done, the margin of difference between each skill line will be severely less than present.

One piece of context within which balance has been made an issue is via the complaint of homegenization that poor balance causes. If all skill lines do everything, that is also a form of homogenization though and it also isn't clear how homegenization will be prevented from the balance perspective because, not only are we waiting quite a long time for all classes to be impacted by skill line swap changes, there will just be a new best thing at the end of the road which many players flock to due to it's power level.

The proposed changes also hit a different contextual point regarding "play as you want." If players are to have their skill lines bogged down with abilities and passives that they either aren't going to use or derive any value from, then there is this hidden anti-play as you want component to the proposed changes.

Another point that I'll bring up is that it's not clear how the changes will impact overall build diversity. Players are already disappointed about their poison builds. There will likely be a number of other knock-on effects to various niche playstyles that will cause players to simply toss away their hard worked on and beloved builds.

i_azazei_i · January 11

Hate how im gonna have to wait till 2027 to have necro, the only class i play get any love.

Sure these changes are to help reduce issues that subclassing cause, but until the last class change update this will only cause more issues since people will prioritize subbing in the newest updated lines

Personofsecrets · January 11

<quote was removed for Bashing>

Might be now.

The best tanks provide damage to their groups, and the new Standard is a LOT of damage.[/quote]

Until they change the new buff to Major Courage in 3 months time, like they eventually do with every other un-named buff.[/quote]

I don’t know, it’s a new team, so we’ll just have to see when we get there.[/quote]
New team? What new team? We still have Brian Wheeler on the wheel of combat design and he has proven more than once that he doesn't understand even the core mechs of the game... I don't expect anything good from this "new" team.[/quote]

A lot of people have been shuffled around at the studio and put into the right spots for the future of the game, including our game director and studio head, who have final say on any suggestions.[/quote]

Dude, the "right spot" for Brian Wheeler is behind McDonald's counter asking you "Do you want chips with that". Yet they made him combat director, no less.

Outside of PVP dragonknight had only had one use with the current meta - as a tank to subclass Earthen Heart for the magma and Battle Roar. With the latest changes even that becomes infeasible as they are separating them in different trees and nering Battle Roar to the point of unusability.

And I don't see the game director doing anything about it. He's just a rubber stamp on the designers' decisions, nothing more.[/quote]

Minor Brutality is also being stolen from Earthen Heart, Helping Hands will have a different role, it will be less feasible to get multiple heals under the mending affect of igneous shield, and the overall debuff provided by stonefist is greatly diminsihed.

Getting rid of the channel from stonefist is neat, the armor passive is useful, and major protection from ash cloud is interesting. I don't really see those things as being worth losing battle roar or minor brutality from the Earthen Heart line though.

Radiate77 · January 11

I mentioned earlier, but I’m not the biggest fan of this choice to require skills from other Dragonknight lines in order to make skills and passives function better, but in terms of the new Battle Roar, at least you only need 3 to reach previous values, and here are four found within Draconic Power for each role.

Damage Dealer skills.

Take Flight
Fiery Breath
Talons
Dragon Blood (Minor Courage)

Tank skills.

Dragon Blood
Talons
Chain
Wings (Group mitigation)

Healer skills.

Dragon Blood
Wings
Chain
Fiery Breath (Major Breach)

Personofsecrets · January 12

I found this comment elsewhere and wanted to share it. The planned changes are nerfs and that is ugly.

"And now none of the skill lines on DK will be able to give me all Earthen Heart used to, but the character is based on a DK and is my main, so they're simply never going to be as good a tank as they are now after the changes. It will be impossible to provide as much team value as I currently do except by switching over to a Warden as the base and looking for some other third class that doesn't come from DK, and the team still loses minor brutality unless it becomes meta for DDs to include Draconic Power (it won't)."

Hotdog_23 · January 12

Probably too late for my general feedback, but here it is anyway.

I guess DKs are now only fire-themed. Which I believe is a mistake.

Why does each class only get one theme now? One would guess that Sorcerer will become only lightning-themed and lose its physical damage theme also since DK lost the poison theme. Why can we not now get a third morph option and not be limited to one theme or role-play-only option? Give DK’s a third morph option of poison over fire. Do this for each class as you remake them. Please don’t limit our creativity. Give each class two themes.

As I read over the changes, I can see what each skill is doing in theory, but it is hard to compare it with any meaningful feedback. I know people will say or think, Just go to PTS but the problem is console doesn’t get a PTS and it doesn’t look like we ever will for whatever reason.

The reason for or lack of PTS is not my point here. It’s just hard to have anything to compare it to without something to look at. So, in effect, you are leaving out 2/3 of your player base from any meaningful feedback. I really wish you would post skill and morph tooltips. Use a Naked 160 CP Dark Elf with all points in both stamina and magic. Darkelf, since it works the same for magic and stamina bonuses. So, we can see and give meaningful feedback as console players. Do this in a forum post or as a new article for each PTS and its changes each week.

While I am talking about tooltips. Now would be a great time to add what type of damage each skill is classified as. Such as direct, AOE, fire, frost, physical, etc. This would really help new and old players when putting a build together. Please pull back the curtain of mystery.

Another thing that bothered me when I read the article is when you talked about skills and how they work with the Elfbane set. Please stop balancing skills around sets in the game. Sets should change, not skills. To me, this is just lazy balancing. I see skills as the foundation of the game and sets as add-ons to complement them. Not the other way around. The problem should be the set, not the skill. If something needs to be changed for balance, then change the set and not the skill.

Outside DK balance, please add scribed ability for Major Resolve and Major Breach to the game to help with build diversity.

Hopefully I will have more feedback later, but it all depends on when and how our PC brothers and sisters post stuff about PTS since I am locked out of it and have nothing I can see or reference.

Stay safe

Whizzinglane · January 12

…spreading out the power that makes a class come to life and drive home the sensation [and] that STAYING TRUE TO YOUR CLASS is also a much more viable and DISTINCT OPTION… (Emphasis mine)

Reading the above quote has caused me to jump for joy (so much joy)! My hope for this class, the Dragonknight, is no longer a distant dream; it is the now, fulfilling in glorious fashion! My being is at heaven's gate!

I give you my thanks for this detailed announcement, no, a tête-a-tête; it speaks to me, solely. Speaking candidly, I think this delightful news will speak to the heart and soul of many players who play this awesome class–although increased costs of skills need reconsideration.

Ah, the novel names for the skills and passives in this REFRESH of old are poetic, and, as a result, exhilarate the soul to new heights. I simply hope the animations for these poetic names do each skill justice. Please leave us in awe. FIRE WILL REIGN MOST GLORIOUSLY! YES!

I would like to suggest a change: STONEFIST should be renamed to "Mound Toss, Claw-style" (that would excite and further enhance the dragon theme. "The dragon claws into the earth [soil] with precision and strength; the clump of soil like a boulder that emerges, bathed in fire, is then toss at the enemy with accelerated speed and might"). Stonefist has gone through various changes. I loved it when one could lambaste an enemy: knocking them back violently. It was thrilling. What about DPS? Can my DPS character have this boon, please? (I have more than four Dragonknight characters; all pure class) "Back in my day stories, hm?" Well, at the outset of ESO, Stonefist was an absolute bliss for my character. There, you have my story, haha.

Morph: Flames of Oblivion I shall miss thy name and your volcanic power. "Oblivion the Game" was alive in thee for me. Please rethink this.

MORPH: Ferocious Leap. I am lending my support for this change. As a tank, controlling the environment and keeping the enemy at arm's reach is paramount. The enemies are now tossed up into the air, and I hope it is with massive force; hence, still "badass." (Badassery!)

SKILL: Petrify. I really like this one. From a roleplay perspective, my character possesses the skill or power of Medusa: to encase an enemy in stone, albeit temporarily. It is a "fun" skill. Fossilize? I sincerely wish this morph will still grant my character Medusa's godly power. Please think on this rework.

Morph: Volatile Armor. Dps viability. What about tanks? Please think on this one as well.

To end, this preview was truly an enjoyable read–thorough and detailed. I am looking forward to the PTS with much anticipation.

PS: I laughed hard at the "Wings Buffet." I am placing an advance order for this delicacy.

Whizzinglane · January 12

Darrell9090 wrote: »

I just read the changes to the dk as a dk tank main I got some concerns for some of the tool changes and some suggestions. My biggest concern is the standard ultimate and its morphs. As a tank I have used this ultimate as a way to help with add control over the past 10 years. Situations where all the dps are dead and healer and there are too many archers or casters. So I’ll chain them in drop standard and use the aoe effect to burn the adds down. With the removal of the flame damage and it becoming a buff ultimate this will make situations like that impossible to recover from.

Now a recommendation I have that would fit with this new design and now completely remove the damage from the standard is this. Have the non morphed standard keep it the same as a buffing ultimate. Now standard of might it grants the buffs to the group and increase stats for the caster now under the ground an eruption grows. The ground is pierced calling in the molten of the earth after 10 second a burst of flames come out of the ground doing damage. It does increased damage to enemies that have remained in the standard of might for the 10 seconds.

This will continue to allow it to be a aoe control mechanism for tanks also a viable tool for dps users especially pve users who are remaining in one location to maximize their damage. This would also fit with the dragon knight eruption theme you guys are going for. Shifting standard I think the change in that one was fine as it still gives dps that move alot more both PvP and pve wise a powerful ultimate to play with.
Now the next concern I have is with chains and the moving of major expedition from chains.

As a tank, chains are an important tool also as a tank I’m also slower than the group. When it comes to add pulls and boss fights the 4 seconds given by chains have been a crucial factor in being able not only move perfectly also keep up with dos that constantly have major expedition up. As devs that play the game you know the players in talking about. The ones that run in front of the group and start to get them selfs killed before the tank can even taunt them for the first time.

So here’s my proposal to help out. For the chain morph to pull enemies in it should grant major expedition so tanks can use that to move when their stam is low in crucial moments in boss fights also use it to pull adds in and also run with the group who’s rushing ahead of the tank so the dps do not get themselves killed.

I would keep the 4 seconds given have it not stack with the major expedition that given through the new wings bonus. This will allow tanks to be able to move out of aoes who cant dodge roll in crucial moments and keep the fight going. I myself have used the major expedition on chains to save myself many times especially in those aoes that are designed to melt the tanks. That expedition always given us a o crap iI can’t dodge lets run option with what little stam I have.

Now, the last concern on my list is the magma shell changes. With the nine morphed version of the magma I think it should remain the same I think the morphs need these changes. Magma armor increased the shield bonus . I disagree in removing the flame damage. It is called magama it should be heated. So, to help tanks again do some damage when they are the last one standing allow magama do initially do a burst of flame damage for the first second or 2. Enough where we can have a chance to add the status effect to adds to activate our passives and work up to a standard drop.

Think of the like magma cooling it burst with heat then cools off into this armor for the duration of the ultimate. This allows some burst damage for you tanks while not being too overly powerful. If you’re not going to grant a burst damage effect then allow it to reduce resurrection time to our allies. As a tank I want to see my foe thrive sometimes they die to mechanics I have to play rez bot. I’m sticking doing 2 things rather A grouping the adds killing then with a standard if there’s too many up or B resign them by hitting magma if there’s too fight is not add heavy. Sometimes I just have a few weak adds in front of me and magma takes care of them as I rez. I hope this feedback hopes yall continue to improve and make the dk better

You have presented so many great points here. The rework STANDARD ULTIMATE focuses on group play: Trials, particularly. For the upcoming Difficulty Slider, Solo Dungeons, the original STANDARD ULTIMATE or one of its morphs, should focus on damage. Please think on this, ZOS.

GloatingSwine · January 12

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I think what the class refresh will come down to is just people needing to adapt to no longer being able to stack 3 pure DPS lines or 3 pure tank lines or 3 pure heal/support lines to essentially build the ultimate/perfect build for each role and have to look into picking lines for their role based on class,

Thing is, you only really stacked three of the same with DPS anyway.

Stacking 3 tank or healer lines is usually actually redundant because they tend to have the same tools in, so you pick the best version of those tools and then choose your other lines to add utility around them.

You only need one copy of Major Resolve, you only need one self heal, you only need to hit block cap and any investment beyond is wasted, and you use a lot of scribed and weapon skills.

It just turns out currently that the best version of all of that is on Winter's Embrace* so you pick that and then decide what to support it with. DK is going to get worse at supporting Winter's Embrace in the next patch because instead of all the tools being in Earthen Heart they're getting split between that and Draconic Power and being done in a way that will make them less consistent to activate than just chucking a stone giant every so often to keep up a bit of stagger and minor brutality for everyone and reduce their value unless you invest in DK skills that you won't want to because you have other, better versions of the same tool.

If you're a pureclass DK tank this update does basically nothing to make you better, if you included DK in a subclassing tank it makes you worse.

Yay?

*Because Chilled is loaded with utility that is good for a tank to provide, much moreso than any other element's status, and Winter's Embrace comboed with a frost staff means you can do it better and more consistently with more skills.

GloatingSwine · January 12

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Anyone who has mained magdk since the beginning knows how bad this stuff is. the things that needed buffed werent. the things that didn't need touched, were. i hope you guys realize that the dk's main and coolest skill, whip, is not even being used. something is seriously wrong with that. please fix it..

So Molten Whip is odd, right.

It's a buildup and burst skill, but it's also the only direct damage spam skill on the class. Everything else is a DoT so you won't repeatedly activate other skills in between whips, you will very occasionally get a one-charge whip if it comes after your FoO or Claw, and that isn't changing because unless New Stone Giant is a good enough spammer to replace whip as the main skill and have it only cast every fourth activation you will basically only coincidentally use it with charges when it happens to come after the reactivation of one of your DoTs.

Which is why everyone who's slotting it is backbarring it for the passive weapon and spell damage and using a different spammer that doesn't eat its charges.

Also, the new off-balance/extra stam on fully charged heavy attack is dead points. Ain't nobody got time to fully charge heavy attacks in this economy.

GloatingSwine · January 12

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tank skills.
Dragon Blood

Talons

Chain

Wings (Group mitigation)

Worse than Polar Winds. (less reliable)
Worse than Gripping Shards. (more expensive, no chilled)
Worse than scribed chain. (Druid's Resurgence activates whether the target was pulled or not)
Radius too short for most situations (also already out of bar slots, and I gave them all Major Resolve with EFC).

Bo0137 · January 12

Wow! I don't play dragonknight and never liked the class but this thread has made me excited for the class for the first time. Awesome work!

You nailed every single aspect.