Official Discussion Thread for "Leaping into the Dragonknight Class Refresh"

Personofsecrets · January 10

Radiate77 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I've played DK tank for 98% or more of my time in ESO over the past 11 years.

I hate the proposed changes. I hope that a class change token is made so that I can escape the designers abuse.

I held the #16 spot for DSA on my first time ever tanking, having freshly made my Alkosh + Tava’s Tank a decade ago, needless to say, I’ve only moved up from there, and I am telling you to give it a shot before passing judgment. ZOS cooked up some really good changes, and while our new animations are an object of taste, the improvements to DK are clear.

-Magma Shell lasts longer and reaches further.
-Standard provides group buffs (finally).
-Blood of the Elder Dragon gives your whole group Minor Courage and Major Fortitude.
-Protect the Brood gives Minor Protection to your whole group, and a new unique mitigation.
-The Storm Voice (Battle Roar) is stronger than ever.
-Mountain Giant passive provides on demand Off-Balance.
-Traumatic Burns now applies 5% Flame Damage from all sources… in a passive.

That's cool that you enjoy DSA. I enjoy my Earthen Heart passives the way that they are now. I've enjoyed getting stamina back with helping hands when I cast Igneous Shield for a whopping 695 days, 16 hours, 3 minutes, and 43 seconds. Subclassing even helped bolster this playstyle as I got to feel like a truly important part of a trials team for the first time in a long time by still playing like a DK and providing the most important DK buffs to the group, but also by including the overly powerful and pushed abilities from other classes into my kit. These abilities from other classes are the ones that have made DK less desireable to groups as a tank these past 695 days. And on the flip side of that, I've seen DK get picked on and pulled apart time and time again over that same span of time.

In the future, when I cast Igneous Shield, I'll only get a bonus if I have also intentioinally crippled my kit by including another DK line. In the future, it won't be my favorite Earthen Heart skills that will be giving my teammates Minor Brutality. Again, I'll have to cripple my kit to do such a thing. In the future, War Horn won't be giving me a much enjoyed resource boost or even a health save if I'm on the brink of death, unless I cripple my kit and include another DK line.

These potential changes are abysmal and upending of how I have enjoyed the game. I don't need to eat a turd sandwhich to know that it wouldn't taste good. I don't need to crash my car to know that there would be unpleasant consequences. I don't need to "try" another half-baked subversive change to the DK and it's kit to know that I won't enjoy it. And I put "try" in quotes because this isn't merely about trying things out, it's about a massive and mostly permanent change for the worse to the tools that I've exclusively used for over 2 years of in-game time. Yes, those 695 days are my slash played over the past 11 years of tanking in ESO. They confer me enough experience to know for sure what kind of things I want for my class.

Vulkunne · January 10

Radiate77 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I've played DK tank for 98% or more of my time in ESO over the past 11 years.

I hate the proposed changes. I hope that a class change token is made so that I can escape the designers abuse.

I held the #16 spot for DSA on my first time ever tanking, having freshly made my Alkosh + Tava’s Tank a decade ago, needless to say, I’ve only moved up from there, and I am telling you to give it a shot before passing judgment. ZOS cooked up some really good changes, and while our new animations are an object of taste, the improvements to DK are clear.

-Magma Shell lasts longer and reaches further.
-Standard provides group buffs (finally).
-Blood of the Elder Dragon gives your whole group Minor Courage and Major Fortitude.
-Protect the Brood gives Minor Protection to your whole group, and a new unique mitigation.
-The Storm Voice (Battle Roar) is stronger than ever.
-Mountain Giant passive provides on demand Off-Balance.
-Traumatic Burns now applies 5% Flame Damage from all sources… in a passive.

It's not whether or not the changes are good. I can make something better but if I'm changing what it is in the process than I haven't made it better, I've made it into... something else. I've changed it properties and therefore its nature, whether intentionally or not, under the pretense that this aspect is better. You know, taking poison away, is not going to make anything better, it makes DK more like a Templar for example.

You could also compare DK to Arcanist. Clearly, Arcanist is better in some situations. But those of us playing DK, we don't want an Arcanist in this instance, we want our DK. We don't want a situation where it's become a clone of something else. Alot of changes can be made in the shadow of making something 'better'.

Another way to put it, perhaps little easier to say, is the DK's identity comes first. If improving anything breaks identity, then it's a bad change. Class Identity first going forward or no dice.

ZhuJiuyin · January 10

I believe the current DK damage over time duration is too long (24s), while the new DK's damage over time duration is too short (10s).
The DK damage over time duration should be changed to 15 seconds, similar to popular PvE skills like Elemental Blockade or Stampede.Furthermore, 15 seconds is exactly half the duration of Elemental Susceptibility in PvP, and also three times the duration of Acid Spray, making it easier for players to manage the timing.

Vulkunne · January 10

ceruulean wrote: »

The changes look good but the new skill names are just weird. The simpler names are better and easier to translate than these new anime-inspired flowery names. I appreciate the animation design and we have lots to learn from Asian IPs and their animation talent, but I don't really like copying their naming conventions by giving every flashy attack a long name. Languages use Chinese pictographs to depict concepts quickly, so when translated to English they sound overly pompous and look long on the UI.

For example, Inhale does exactly what it does: the character inhales a ton of energy. It's super basic but every martial artist knows about the importance of breathwork, and it's nice to see a fantasy class acknowledge this skill. Why is it being renamed to Core of Flame? What was wrong with Deep Breath and Draw Essence?

Wing Buffet... I don't even know how this change went through... Protective Scale or even Protective Wings is perfectly fine... "Wing Blast" is basically what you're trying to say here but without the homonym getting in the way...

Hearthfire is just weird... Isn't that the name of a month in Tamriel calendar? It would be like naming a skill "Cozy January Fireplace." Ash Cloud is perfect, it fits what the skill is. I don't see a home, a hearth, or a keep in the skill at all...

Storm Voice instead of Battle Roar? Really? Anyone can tell you which name sounds better in context:

Engulfing Dragonfire instead of Engulfing Flames? Really? What makes Dragonfire more meaningful than just Flames? We already know that Dragonknights are draconic, we don't need reminders every 2 skills that they're draconic... It's like calling a polar bear a Snowy Northern Bear, instead of just... Snowy Bear or Northern Bear...

A Storm Voice you say... what is that? Is that like... from lightning, right? Well, isn't that... from Sorc Class maybe?

Instead let's just rename it to, "Stormy Voice" or "Blustery Day" or "Fair Weather Friday".

Vulkunne · January 10

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Even for pve this has a incredible potential to put dks in a better spot

Let’s say your dot does 10k over its course of 10seconds this gives you a chance to increase your dps by 50% just by re applying the skill every 10 seconds which really isn’t that hard 20 seconds half’s the damage output this is a great change and I’m glad they’re acknowledging it

Coming from a Trials junky (like me) I can tell you thusly, there are plenty of ways to increase your damage without fundamentally changing the DK Class. Improving damage is just not the point. Class identity first and changes follow that.

Not make changes and leave Class Identity as 'optional'.

MXVIIDREAM · January 10

Vulkunne wrote: »

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Even for pve this has a incredible potential to put dks in a better spot

Let’s say your dot does 10k over its course of 10seconds this gives you a chance to increase your dps by 50% just by re applying the skill every 10 seconds which really isn’t that hard 20 seconds half’s the damage output this is a great change and I’m glad they’re acknowledging it

Coming from a Trials junky (like me) I can tell you thusly, there are plenty of ways to increase your damage without fundamentally changing the DK Class. Improving damage is just not the point. Class identity first and changes follow that.

Not make changes and leave Class Identity as 'optional'.

It’s not changing the dk class fundamentally it’s rewarding players that can manage skills properly
However the people saying the timer is too short fall to realise that they can still cast this skill every 20 seconds and still do the exact same damage because the damage hasn’t changed just the duration in which it applies the damage 10 seconds is the sweet spot and it’s very well in line with other class dots
Players should be rewarded for being able to manage a skill correctly however they won’t be penalised in terms of dps with this change if they skill can only manage to cast it once every 20seconds it’s still doing more damage than it done before as the base damage has been increased too, hope this helps

Personofsecrets · January 10

Vulkunne wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

The changes look good but the new skill names are just weird. The simpler names are better and easier to translate than these new anime-inspired flowery names. I appreciate the animation design and we have lots to learn from Asian IPs and their animation talent, but I don't really like copying their naming conventions by giving every flashy attack a long name. Languages use Chinese pictographs to depict concepts quickly, so when translated to English they sound overly pompous and look long on the UI.

For example, Inhale does exactly what it does: the character inhales a ton of energy. It's super basic but every martial artist knows about the importance of breathwork, and it's nice to see a fantasy class acknowledge this skill. Why is it being renamed to Core of Flame? What was wrong with Deep Breath and Draw Essence?

Wing Buffet... I don't even know how this change went through... Protective Scale or even Protective Wings is perfectly fine... "Wing Blast" is basically what you're trying to say here but without the homonym getting in the way...

Hearthfire is just weird... Isn't that the name of a month in Tamriel calendar? It would be like naming a skill "Cozy January Fireplace." Ash Cloud is perfect, it fits what the skill is. I don't see a home, a hearth, or a keep in the skill at all...

Storm Voice instead of Battle Roar? Really? Anyone can tell you which name sounds better in context:

Engulfing Dragonfire instead of Engulfing Flames? Really? What makes Dragonfire more meaningful than just Flames? We already know that Dragonknights are draconic, we don't need reminders every 2 skills that they're draconic... It's like calling a polar bear a Snowy Northern Bear, instead of just... Snowy Bear or Northern Bear...

A Storm Voice you say... what is that? Is that like... from lightning, right? Well, isn't that... from Sorc Class maybe?

Instead let's just rename it to, "Stormy Voice" or "Blustery Day" or "Fair Weather Friday".

Why didn't they just call it a Shout?

Wup_sa · January 10

Tyrobag wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

#1 Problem:
"Attrition - a wearing down or weakening of resistance, especially as a result of continuous pressure or harassment"
The word attrition carries the implication of occurring over a longer period of time. Logically, this would correspond to LONGER DoTs, not shorter ones. It has already been established that people prefer longer DoTs for a more comfortable rotation (You'll notice that when given a choice between a power increase and a duration increase, most builds take the duration). With these facts in front of you, and claiming that your intention is for DK's damage to be based on attrition, how do you possibly justify knocking down all of DK's dots to just 10 seconds?

#2 Problem:
For what possible reason did you remove eruption? Its DK's only ground DoT, and it was the morph that actually did what the ability was intended to do. The replacement isn't even anything interesting, so why remove one of DK's staple abilities? This makes me honestly want to stop playing at all until you guys are done changing all of the classes. Why would I work on a build that I know is going completely loose core abilities that it relies on?

Every time you've had low duration DoTs like this, the feedback has been the same: It makes the game feel clunky and spammy. People don't want 10 second rotations.

That said, there are a lot of good things here. If you guys actually listen to feedback this time and fix the DoT durations, as well as return at least eruption (preferably the base morph too, since the whole "healing ash" thing is not intuitive) this could be really good. Otherwise its unlikely that I'd use DK skills when there are other options that actually have almost reasonable durations.

The reason for shorter DOTs is because of PvP. Long DOTs don't do damage, so they shorten the time and make the damage proc every second instead of every 2 seconds (might become as problematic as relequeen is in duels).

So we should Make DK a pure PvP class? Also, nowhere in the article did they say they were making DoTs tick every second. That is a change I would absolutely agree with, but it wouldn't change the fact that a 10 second duration is way too short.

MXVIIDREAM wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

#1 Problem:
"Attrition - a wearing down or weakening of resistance, especially as a result of continuous pressure or harassment"
The word attrition carries the implication of occurring over a longer period of time. Logically, this would correspond to LONGER DoTs, not shorter ones. It has already been established that people prefer longer DoTs for a more comfortable rotation (You'll notice that when given a choice between a power increase and a duration increase, most builds take the duration). With these facts in front of you, and claiming that your intention is for DK's damage to be based on attrition, how do you possibly justify knocking down all of DK's dots to just 10 seconds?

#2 Problem:
For what possible reason did you remove eruption? Its DK's only ground DoT, and it was the morph that actually did what the ability was intended to do. The replacement isn't even anything interesting, so why remove one of DK's staple abilities? This makes me honestly want to stop playing at all until you guys are done changing all of the classes. Why would I work on a build that I know is going completely loose core abilities that it relies on?

Every time you've had low duration DoTs like this, the feedback has been the same: It makes the game feel clunky and spammy. People don't want 10 second rotations.

That said, there are a lot of good things here. If you guys actually listen to feedback this time and fix the DoT durations, as well as return at least eruption (preferably the base morph too, since the whole "healing ash" thing is not intuitive) this could be really good. Otherwise its unlikely that I'd use DK skills when there are other options that actually have almost reasonable durations.

Changing dots to shorter timers and increasing damage was absolutely the right move anyone who has played the class will tell you that also results in a significant dps increase for pve PvP and most overload content
This is a dot class and every other class has harder hitting dots for less cost even specs have a harder hitting dot this change was absolutely necessary and the right call they’ve nailed this one

Really? Because I've played the class, and I'm telling you the opposite. Increasing the damage by 50% increases the damage, yes. That's beside the point. Cutting the durations in half makes it feel incredibly clunky, which is why DoT times were increased in the first place. "This is a dot class and every other class has harder hitting dots for less cost even specs have a harder hitting dot " You started with correct observations, but somehow came to a completely backwards conclusion. A DoT class should have long duration DoTs that they can feel comfortable using, they shouldn't be forced to run a 10 second rotation. You want a power increase. That doesn't have to be at odds with also having a comfortable 20 second rotation.

They stated in the patch notes that the DOTs will do 50% damage per second.

s3dulo · January 10

Can't wait to check this out on the PTS but straight off, just from reading, I hate that you are moving fiery breath from Ardent. One of the things that is unique to Ardent is having major savagery/prophecy, an incredible major breach AOE, and a nasty spamable in one line. I don't, at all, get why you would move it. There is no other line that offers this. You've certainly improved DK overall but this one change is really leaving a sour taste.

Tonturri · January 10

I'm dubiously optimistic about some things, but disappointed about others. I'm not a DK main but I was looking forward to this post as a means to gauge how ZOS would be working on the rest of the classes. It seems like there's a clear vision (even if we might not like what that vision is or how it's being executed) for classes - this is good.

However, ZOS doesn't seem to be interested in making exceedingly unique, class-specific mechanics. We currently have two classes that have unique build-spend mechanics within the context of ESO class design as a whole, but are generic in the grand scheme of class design across MMOs: Arcanist and necromancer. 'Press damage button, get resource, spend resource on big hit skill'. While (imo) not the most imaginative, this build-spend extends across all three skill lines for arcanist and necromancer, with each skill line having its own way to build and spend the resource. One line is building via damage and spending to get more damage, one is building via durability/tanking and spending to get more tanking, and the third is building via healing and spending to get more healing. This design lets players, when using the entire class w/out subclassing, have more options in how they want to build and spend. Where a subclass player picking Living Death would only be able to build and spend on healing, a pure necro player can build their resource doing damage then spend it on healing if they like.

The game's core classes don't have this, and while I'm certainly not expecting GW2-levels of unique class mechanics like giving dragonknights a second health bar that builds and spends based on skills used and damage taken/dealt, it leaves me feeling a little bored about a lot of the changes. 'Replaced instances of poison with burning' is thematic and can result in interesting build-craft, but isn't exactly something that impacts gameplay from moment to moment. Most of the changes seem to be this sort of adjustment - not that they don't have their place, but they seem to be all we can expect to get.

For example, Superheated Ward (originally Stonefist). As someone who loves absorb shields in games, I enjoy this. Same for Magma Armor>Magma Shell. These are, in my opinion, solid changes that deal with some issues. However, there's nothing here that really screams unique gameplay. We already have absorb shields in other skills, both in weapons (resto staff) and scribing that are already accessible. Adding more copies of skills that already exist - basic 'give absorb shield to ally' - with the only differentiating factor being minor secondary or tertiary effects is...Not exciting to me. It turns the game into a matter of deciding I like absorb shields and then picking my visual effect and secondary effect - do I want Major Vitality or a heal + DR buff. While these can be interesting decisions to make in a lot of cases, when that's the *only* kind of decision to make, it gets boring.

That all said, I like the look of these reworks better compared to the current state of DK and, imo, is a step in the right direction. I just wish core classes could get the same treatment the newer ones did in their designs...And that we got better build-spend mechanics >_> I enjoy necromancer and I'll wait until the rework for that one comes out, but I really hope we get more interesting variance between consuming or not consuming a resource.

YandereGirlfriend · January 10

screamingabdabs wrote: »

I am more or less just a pve player and I am one of those who had a poison DK. I ran Venomous smite and Witch-knights defiance with 2 handed front and bow (poison) back. I'm not sure I see any use for either of those sets now.

Was it the best build? No probably not. Was it fun to play? Yes. Gap closing with stampede and then smothering anything the proc missed with Noxious breath was fun. Staying back and peppering a large group with poison arrow before leaping in and finishing off a load of weakened foes was fun.

I doubt if there will be as good a close quarters poison skill as Noxious breath and the other current class poison sources (Venom skull in Necro and Subterranean Assault in Warden) are both distance. Sub assault also has the 3 second delay where as Noxious hit instantly and carried on hitting.

So I am now left with either deleting that character or waiting to see if it is worth getting poison via sub classing from elsewhere.

I know this post is probably going to have zero effect. Those who wanted a fire DK now have one but I didn't want a fire based character; I wanted, and have used for years, a poison based one. Now my main has gone along with the way I played.

You gotta break some eggs to make an omelette.

Friend, you have no idea how many times I have had builds completely obviated by patch notes. You just adapt and move on. It's the norm for any live service game that receives balance and content updates.

For a purely static world... there is Skyrim, Oblivion, etc.

iyx · January 10

Well, one of my favorite characters on account is an argonian DK of Black-Tongues tribe, completely dedicated to poisons, spewing venom and dealing poisoned wounds with his cleavers, wearing poison-enhancing set, and living in his own little poisoncrafter house. Not a classic stealthy assassin with a flask of poison, but a walking venom. Nothing special, just for rp sake, but he's a lot of fun to play.
And so I'm trying to wrap my head around the news that poison morphs being removed. I don't even know what class fantasy applies here; it completely changes the character concept. (yes, I already have a Pyromancer DK, I don't need a second Pyromancer.)

I've always found it very convenient and tes-coded that ESO doesn't have strictly defined classes - you can wear any gear and use almost any skills. And the class names were just that, names, not forcing a specific archetype on the player. I wasn't at all against the visual overhaul of DK, but it's very disturbing to see that some freedom and creativity being squeezed into class boundaries. As far as I know, something similar happened in WoW, where Hunters can use guns, but their current skills and animations are geared toward the Archer archetype.

Now it remains to be seen what themes will be lost in other classes, I do hope some changhes will be rethink further.

irstarkey57 · January 10

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

ive never played dragonknight, im curious to see what mains make of the news here.

been my main since 2016. skill styles aside, the changes look terrible for dps and pvp. no idea how they managed to make it worse. pretty bummed out. looks like tanks will be happy though.

irstarkey57 · January 10

Anyone who has mained magdk since the beginning knows how bad this stuff is. the things that needed buffed werent. the things that didn't need touched, were. i hope you guys realize that the dk's main and coolest skill, whip, is not even being used. something is seriously wrong with that. please fix it. passives are all extremely underwhelming and no dd will use them since aedric spear, assassins, and storm calling exist. just make them more in line with those. i don't play stamdk but if i did id be pretty upset. i was cautiously optimistic for these changes but nope. here we go again. also, its OK that a dk isnt a healer. not every class needs to have options to be a healer.

A DK is supposed to go HAM, get into the battle and weird fire badassery down on it's enemies. the damage is sub par and these changes just make it worse. i really hope the feedback gets through to the devs on the pts.

s3dulo · January 10

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Gadamlub14_ESO wrote: »

ive never played dragonknight, im curious to see what mains make of the news here.

been my main since 2016. skill styles aside, the changes look terrible for dps and pvp. no idea how they managed to make it worse. pretty bummed out. looks like tanks will be happy though.

It's hard to say how it will look in PVP without testing but some of the skill moves from this line to that line, make no sense to me and completely removing the poison identity is also a bafflingly. Additionally, it seems like they could have just tweaked the passives a bit, given certain skills a bit more utility and then called it good. Like keep Ardent flame as is, give a bit more damage bonus to poison and flame, maybe increase the major berserk on chains, make searing heat default and replace it with some penetration bonus of some kind and call it good.

With Draconic, they could get rid of the useless Elder Dragon and maybe throw in a sustain passive of some kind or a max health bonus. Perhaps improve spiked armor with more damage and a debuff. Call it good

Tweak a few skills on Earthen heart, make Eternal Mountain default, and replace with a better passive. Call it good

Seems like they are going overboard with the changes. Hopefully they keep their commitment to listening to the community and will go back to the drawing board after testing if people are unhappy. I know I'll be all over testing this in PVP.

Personofsecrets · January 10

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Anyone who has mained magdk since the beginning knows how bad this stuff is. the things that needed buffed werent. the things that didn't need touched, were. i hope you guys realize that the dk's main and coolest skill, whip, is not even being used. something is seriously wrong with that. please fix it. passives are all extremely underwhelming and no dd will use them since aedric spear, assassins, and storm calling exist. just make them more in line with those. i don't play stamdk but if i did id be pretty upset. i was cautiously optimistic for these changes but nope. here we go again. also, its OK that a dk isnt a healer. not every class needs to have options to be a healer.

A DK is supposed to go HAM, get into the battle and weird fire badassery down on it's enemies. the damage is sub par and these changes just make it worse. i really hope the feedback gets through to the devs on the pts.

Yup, designers just did what they did best and played tinkerer rather than make something genuinely cool.

ChaoticWings3 · January 10

My thoughts after going through the post. (For context I'm on an indefinite hiatus from ESO (stopped around June 2025 and played a bit in December) until things improve because things feel boring right now. Got interested with the plans going forward (harder overland, class changes, solo group dungeons, 3 man battlegrounds making a return) so I'll see if I come back with how things proceed going forward. Will defiantly try out the harder overland content. Excited for that.

DK was my first class and still is an alt class I jump on to all the time. My main is a warden (I'll have a lot more to say about that one when notes release for it) and I focus on tanking myself):

1. The names for the skills defiantly need another pass. I can already see memes of "wing buffet" are going to be ever present. Some of the names seem rather obtuse as well. Shorter names tend to work better. "Blessing at the peak" over "Mountain blessing" sounds very off. Traumatic burns -> Scorched Earth sounds better and fits the passive. I could go through every name to explain why it doesn't really work for me but then I would spend too much time on this.

2. Poison disappearing is a bit disappointing. Its not life shattering based on the fact that flame damage skills were orientated to stamina skills which personally I find interesting but we do lose out on poison damage options till other changes are made so it's in a weird spot for me.

3. Standard of Might changes are very "okay". Losing the flame damage is not great. The ult cost REALLY has to come down since it won't be slotted in it's current form with the amount of time buffs are applied. A tank might use it in replacement of barrier but honestly we get more dmg from using war horn for the same cost and barrier is better for preventing wipes so not great there, dps will probably never use it over something that just does high dmg, healer might use it but again, cost is high and there is better options right now. If the cost was lower and the time slightly increased on standard of might I think it would be a neat option for DK healer. It would have been better if it had a reduced flame dmg for the standard of might morph rather than erasing it entirely. That way the ult still feels like it is an ult that does constant flame dmg so as not to make move feel too off for veteran players that have been using it.

4. Lava Whip changes feel really solid and I like the way they are being reworked. This is kind of the main skill of DK (or at least one that I see on every build) so if it didn't sound fun to use then I probably would hate a lot of of the other changes. Searing strike's dmg increase over a shorter period is REALLY GOOD! Burning Embers morph honestly sounds like a decent option since I can just tag an enemy for a duration and know that I'm constantly healing from that while also dotting the enemy. Need to see numbers though to get a better idea.

5. I think (hope) that core of flame costs are reduced otherwise its rather expensive to use. However, I do like heart of flame for a tank since I can gain back my resources and sustain a lot better (stamina regeneration outside of ult usually is non existent when your blocking all the time and based on the description I should be able to gain back resources even when blocking like with netch on warden). Dmg wise though....yeah, not great. Maybe move the interrupt to heart of flame and increase the dmg (maybe a small initial hit and then a larger burst at the end) for soul of flame.

6. Hearthfire: Minor fortitude and heroism instead of the 70% reduction in speed is rather good. Not much of a healer but honestly sounds like a decent option to throw on a healing setup. Hearth and Home brings back the speed reduction and gives major protection which is interesting, but no dmg is bad. I would have preferred it to be something that did dmg and reduced enemy speed as a way for a dmg dealer to get out of situation and allow the tank to start grabbing the enemies (although that is sort of niche so maybe something else here). At the moment the ability feels like it is neither for a dps or a tank (we have chains and immobilizations so we don't need speed reduction and major protection is not really needed sometimes when we have a better tool kit for every other situation). Fire keeper would honestly be the morph tanks would take to be honest if we were slotting it. This morph needs to be looked at again.

7. Inferno: Yeah, I don't like the fact I lose out on the passive dmg over time with the fireballs. It sounds like a good trash mob wiper but I usually like having the fire balls shoot out to attack enemies over time. Even so, the cost increase needs to come with power 100%. Like something that hits VERY hard because 4,000 mag is a lot on any build.

8. Fan the flames (there's a better name for this I think not going to try to change all of these names because that would make this post too long): Honestly decent passive, increases dmg, increases chance to apply burning which then works with the other passive to help with sustain. Most DK dps will usually have at least 2 of the ardent flame abilities slotted at all times on a bar. Inferno will probably be on the same bar too. I think its pretty solid.

9. Take flight: Love this change. Take flight was okay before because of the cost reduction but the dmg increases make this a solid ult to run now. Ferocious leap: ....tanks don't use this. We usually use this in pvp though with a tanky setup. The knock upwards can be good for finishing off enemies in pvp but the knockback is better for saving allies since it pushes the opponent away so some skills are less useable. Overall would lean towards knockback personally.

10. Engulfing flames: So base ability and stamina morph are still great to have and the ability itself is kind of the main spammable I tend to use. Engulfing flames is tough to say how I feel about it. Take flight shouldn't be the only morph that affects this as that will further distance any reason to use ferocious leap. I think its better overall but I still think the stamina morph is better IMO.

11. Dark Talons: Yeah, could of used some extra love especially on choking. No one uses choking. Not sure how to change it though, maybe a debuff like minor vulnerability? I don't know. I think something could be done here though.

12. Blood of the Elder Dragon: Those are some pretty big heals if I'm going to be honest there. I mean that in a good way.

Also minor courage and fortitude. This may be a pretty crazy heal to be honest. DK healers are feeling very viable with this.

13. Wing buffet: Combo is pretty good and having a movement buff is nice on a DK. Fleetstep wings is very good with the base ability stats. Don't care for the other morph though as it's a little too niche....the name protect the brood is also meme worthy...it's bad if I can picture the conversations I will have groups that use these skills and the wacky conversations that will result from just the name. -_-

14. Chains of Flame: Good overall base change to major cowardice. I'm interested in the new sound effect when successfully pulling an enemy. Sometimes an enemy is immune for a bit so I waste my time trying to pull them so hoping this helps in that regard. Chains of devastation morph probably needs buff timers to match as it will feel weird having timers like that. 10 for evasion but 6 for berserk? I think it would be better if they were both 10 or 6, easier to know when the effects end. Otherwise, good skill overall.

15. Burnished scales -> Iron Scales better name. World in ruin: I think it's fine. We do lose out on the single target power but with increases in the dot power in the tool kit I think it's going to do better. I think the fire breath spammable is considered area of effect so you would probably see an increase there and if you plan to do dmg with a dragon knight toolkit you would likely have venomous claw and Inferno which will benefit from this too. This also effects any area of effects or dots outside the tool kit rather than just the DK abilities mostly. Elder Dragon: Better change. A flat increase without requiring certain abilities is better. Anything with minor brutality or sorcery should be interchangeable at this point. No point doing one without the other since hyberization. The storm voice (Battle roar is still a better name IMO): I think it's fine, I think there should be an increase to the base to about 22 at rank 2 so that 3 or more is then a buff rather than an invisible minor nerf (math wise it would 34 instead of 37 with 3 or more abilities). Either that or increase the per DK ability to 8 rather than 6. The reason I believe this was done was to prevent subclassing from taking too much of an advantage of the power from this passive because it is very good. So overall the change isn't bad but would prefer the slight alteration to benefit the DK player a bit.

16. Magma shell: Do like the time increases and radius increases to make sure the party gets the buff. This change will probably have me switch barrier out for shell on my dk tank. Corrosive armor: Great power increase, nerf to dmg reduction is fine because being invincible AND melting your opponents in pvp was kind of OP. Besides, the dmg potential makes an offense a better defense in this regard. Saying that monsters have a set resistance limit so it's not great in PVE. Maybe like with take flight it has increased potential against monsters?

17. Superheated ward: I think you should get the buff no matter what along with the closest ally in range. 4.5k resources is a lot for something you may not get the effects of. Magma fist seems wacky. Also 99 more dmg (3 stacks) is rather low as a debuff. This needs to get looked at again. Either make it a better marking ability to melt the enemy faster or increase its overall dmg potential with a lower cost. Not sure how much the costs are but I'm pretty sure its about half the base. Its still rather costly for a range spammable. We got better options elsewhere.

18. Molten weapons: I think it would be better if it gave additional flame dmg every second per light/heavy attack rather than every 2 seconds for the group. Maybe lose the major buffs and increase the dmg? Just thoughts on that one, don't have a good option for this since I use oaken soul if I'm trying to be a dps. But major brutality and sorcery is pretty common to get in other areas right now so may be worth considering.

19. Avalanche: I don't mind the ramping dmg increase but I think we should have a bit more time of not doing dmg like 6 to 10 seconds. 2 seconds is waaaaayyyy too short especially since in some fights you have to avoid the mechanic for around 10 seconds anyway so with 2 seconds I would have lost 5 stacks if there was nothing to hit which is bad. I also like stacking up by 2% per 5 seconds as a better speed. Gets you max power faster. Maybe increase the max to 16%? 5 seconds does take awhile TBH.

Probably could have talked about petrify but honestly I'm not sure how that will turn out. Some aspects sound fine while others don't. I'll leave that up to others since I'm more of wait and see on that one. Overall thoughts, love some changes, really don't like others, some are okay, the names NEED to be fixed. Overall in its current state I would give it a 79/100. Its good but there are some parts that still seem underperforming. I should see a reason why I would slot something over something else in the toolkit when that doesn't occur, its considered not worth grabbing (essentially if it doesn't fit any role).

Tariq9898 · January 10

Regarding Standard of Might:

This change needs to be reversed.

Instead, the changes should be applied to Shifting standard. Shifting Standard is never (or barely) used in PVE. This is a great opportunity to reinvigorate it by making it the group support ultimate. This adds even more build variety for DKs in group and solo content and for different play styles and roles.

There was no need to gut Standard of Might when Shifting is available with very little usage.

Skinny Cheeks has also expressed a similar feedback regarding this at Ardent Flame timestamp.

https://youtu.be/ISQjG6wsSJI?si=3VuyS2puIgrQSL82

irstarkey57 · January 10

Why is standard even being touched? No one has ever complained about standard except for shifting standard which no one uses outside of pvp, and even then, barely.

Skills that need help are whip, poop rock, wings, talons, ERUPTION, burning embers.

Flames of oblivion and cauterize do not need changed.

The fact that the dk's main staple skill, whip, is not being used should be sounding alarms. Having a skill that costs both types of resources is an awful idea. Yea, let me spam my spammable and then not be able to break free and die. This skill should hit hard like surprise attack and do something cool as well, also like surprise attack. seething fury is not a fun thing to keep up, especially with subclassing. flame lash is fine, but needs a little more damage.

The passives in ardent flame need to be more in line with assassins, storn calling, aedric spear. every skill in the tree is a damage skill so please mirror that with the passives.

Finally, DK's very much need help with sustain. I mean, just look at the costs of the skills. At least bring battle roar back to its pre nerf numbers if you don't do anything else for helping sustain.

Radiate77 · January 10

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Regarding Standard of Might:

This change needs to be reversed.

Instead, the changes should be applied to Shifting standard. Shifting Standard is never (or barely) used in PVE. This is a great opportunity to reinvigorate it by making it the group support ultimate. This adds even more build variety for DKs in group and solo content and for different play styles and roles.

There was no need to gut Standard of Might when Shifting is available with very little usage.

Skinny Cheeks has also expressed a similar feedback regarding this at Ardent Flame timestamp.

https://youtu.be/ISQjG6wsSJI?si=3VuyS2puIgrQSL82

Did you watch the whole video? Skinny says that the skill is drastically improved for group play and nerfed for solo play, but then goes on to say that Take Flight now comfortably takes that role for PvE.

20% free damage, to all sources you control, for 15 seconds on an AoE cheap ultimate, Take Flight.

That is better than Incap.

Tariq9898 · January 10

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Regarding Standard of Might:

This change needs to be reversed.

Instead, the changes should be applied to Shifting standard. Shifting Standard is never (or barely) used in PVE. This is a great opportunity to reinvigorate it by making it the group support ultimate. This adds even more build variety for DKs in group and solo content and for different play styles and roles.

There was no need to gut Standard of Might when Shifting is available with very little usage.

Skinny Cheeks has also expressed a similar feedback regarding this at Ardent Flame timestamp.

https://youtu.be/ISQjG6wsSJI?si=3VuyS2puIgrQSL82

Did you watch the whole video? Skinny says that the skill is drastically improved for group play and nerfed for solo play, but then goes on to say that Take Flight now comfortably takes that role for PvE.

20% free damage, to all sources you control, for 15 seconds on an AoE cheap ultimate, Take Flight.

That is better than Incap.

The changes for improving for group play is great for sure! I am not denying that. Those changes needed to be applied for Shifting rather than Might because it’s rarely used, if at all. This way, both solo and group players have viable DK ults.

I like the Take Flight changes and it seems it might be getting more usage. However, the changes to Standard needs to be better allocated to enhance usage for both morphs. This gives each morph a stronger identity, which brings out the DKs class fantasy more.

Radiate77 · January 10

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Finally, DK's very much need help with sustain. I mean, just look at the costs of the skills. At least bring battle roar back to its pre nerf numbers if you don't do anything else for helping sustain.

They are, did you read the notes?

Battle Roar now scales off of how many Dragonknight skills you have slotted.

You get 6 more value per Dragonknight skill, so if you have 7, you have 58 total per.

Radiate77 · January 10

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Regarding Standard of Might:

This change needs to be reversed.

Instead, the changes should be applied to Shifting standard. Shifting Standard is never (or barely) used in PVE. This is a great opportunity to reinvigorate it by making it the group support ultimate. This adds even more build variety for DKs in group and solo content and for different play styles and roles.

There was no need to gut Standard of Might when Shifting is available with very little usage.

Skinny Cheeks has also expressed a similar feedback regarding this at Ardent Flame timestamp.

https://youtu.be/ISQjG6wsSJI?si=3VuyS2puIgrQSL82

Did you watch the whole video? Skinny says that the skill is drastically improved for group play and nerfed for solo play, but then goes on to say that Take Flight now comfortably takes that role for PvE.

20% free damage, to all sources you control, for 15 seconds on an AoE cheap ultimate, Take Flight.

That is better than Incap.

The changes for improving for group play is great for sure! I am not denying that. Those changes needed to be applied for Shifting rather than Might because it’s rarely used, if at all. This way, both solo and group players have viable DK ults.

I like the Take Flight changes and it seems it might be getting more usage. However, the changes to Standard needs to be better allocated to enhance usage for both morphs. This gives both morphs stronger identity, which brings out the DKs class fantasy more.

Absolutely not. This is coming off as a PvP vs PvE debate and I’m not going to get into that with you.

Shifting Standard works great in PvE too, and is still better than a Destruction Staff ultimate.

Tariq9898 · January 10

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Regarding Standard of Might:

This change needs to be reversed.

Instead, the changes should be applied to Shifting standard. Shifting Standard is never (or barely) used in PVE. This is a great opportunity to reinvigorate it by making it the group support ultimate. This adds even more build variety for DKs in group and solo content and for different play styles and roles.

There was no need to gut Standard of Might when Shifting is available with very little usage.

Skinny Cheeks has also expressed a similar feedback regarding this at Ardent Flame timestamp.

https://youtu.be/ISQjG6wsSJI?si=3VuyS2puIgrQSL82

Did you watch the whole video? Skinny says that the skill is drastically improved for group play and nerfed for solo play, but then goes on to say that Take Flight now comfortably takes that role for PvE.

20% free damage, to all sources you control, for 15 seconds on an AoE cheap ultimate, Take Flight.

That is better than Incap.

The changes for improving for group play is great for sure! I am not denying that. Those changes needed to be applied for Shifting rather than Might because it’s rarely used, if at all. This way, both solo and group players have viable DK ults.

I like the Take Flight changes and it seems it might be getting more usage. However, the changes to Standard needs to be better allocated to enhance usage for both morphs. This gives both morphs stronger identity, which brings out the DKs class fantasy more.

Absolutely not. This is coming off as a PvP vs PvE debate and I’m not going to get into that with you.

Shifting Standard works great in PvE too, and is still better than a Destruction Staff ultimate.

That’s fine, we’ll just have to agree to disagree then.

Radiate77 · January 11

My advice would be this, and it’s for anyone coming at these changes in a negative light, wait until Monday before posting your opinion.

A lot of people who don’t truly understand how these changes are going to shake out, are going to be very impressed with these changes.

Animations aside, as those are obviously a matter of taste. Personally, I like them.

irstarkey57 · January 11

Radiate77 wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Finally, DK's very much need help with sustain. I mean, just look at the costs of the skills. At least bring battle roar back to its pre nerf numbers if you don't do anything else for helping sustain.

They are, did you read the notes?

Battle Roar now scales off of how many Dragonknight skills you have slotted.

You get 6 more value per Dragonknight skill, so if you have 7, you have 58 total per.

DID YOU? please tell me which skills in this tree will entice you do pick this skill line. Wing Buffet? lmao. the fact that they took two damage skills away from the damage skill line aka ardent flame, and put them in draconic power is just dumb. like, what? the way these skills and passives are shuffled, no one is using dk in subclassing. if you decide not to subclass as a dk and use all the skill lines...gl and hf lol.

irstarkey57 · January 11

Radiate77 wrote: »

My advice would be this, and it’s for anyone coming at these changes in a negative light, wait until Monday before posting your opinion.

A lot of people who don’t truly understand how these changes are going to shake out, are going to be very impressed with these changes.

Animations aside, as those are obviously a matter of taste. Personally, I like them.

Plenty of people DO understand, especially those who, like myself, have played for ten plus years as a dk main. What's to understand? It's written out. We can read the changes. So no, the more people that bring up the negative issues now, the more time the devs can have to fix them, if they will. Some changes are ok, some are just no brainer bad. I.E. eruption, which does no damage whatsoever in the damage skill line aka ardent flame. Also, deep breath makes no sense being there either. Let me cast an expensive skill to get sustain? Losing flames of oblivion sucks. New skill has twice the cost. Let's also not forget that they removed the ENTIRE stamdk kit. Poison morphs for stamdks? Nope, sorry, on your bike, all gone.

Am I going to be impressed with those changes? Spoiler alert. No.

Desiato · January 11

The vast majority of DK enthusiasts I know who actually play eso are not enthusiastic about these changes at all.

The class refresh is not entirely about "identity". I think it is disproportionately represented in the narrative being presented to us.

The class refresh is much deeper than that IMO. My belief has been for months that ZOS intended to Arcanistize all classes, and the upcoming PTS will be our first taste of it.

IMO, the Fatecarver playstyle was engineered to be something in between the heavy attack and light attack weave play styles, with a simplified rotation and a long duration, long range channeled cleave that drastically reduces actions per minute.

Fatecarver has been extremely popular, so now every class will get some version of it with other abilities that synergize with it -- at the cost of existing abilities that current players of the class may love.

I'm not saying it's going to be exactly the same, but it will be low apm with a simplified rotation and a big cleave.

To me, this is the most important part of the class refresh to ZOS, and part of their strategy to try to migrate its current ultracasual audience to more challenging content because that's the direction the game is moving in. It is becoming more of a typical modern live service game and less of a story driven game.

All IMO of course. We'll see on Monday...

FoolishOptimist · January 11

With certain skills being designated and recommended by ZoS as “Healer”, “Tank” or “Damage Dealer” skills, it would be nice to have uniformity with their resource use.

An issue that seems to be repeated by folks on the various forums is the “gutting” of Magicka vs Stamina morphs.

I think each class spammable skill designated as the recommended DPS skill (Crystal Frags, Lava Whip, Jabs) should follow the Arcanist treatment and have a “Use Highest Resource” cost, so morphs aren’t beholden to a specific resource or build.

Turtle_Bot · January 11

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Finally, DK's very much need help with sustain. I mean, just look at the costs of the skills. At least bring battle roar back to its pre nerf numbers if you don't do anything else for helping sustain.

They are, did you read the notes?

Battle Roar now scales off of how many Dragonknight skills you have slotted.

You get 6 more value per Dragonknight skill, so if you have 7, you have 58 total per.

DID YOU? please tell me which skills in this tree will entice you do pick this skill line. Wing Buffet? lmao. the fact that they took two damage skills away from the damage skill line aka ardent flame, and put them in draconic power is just dumb. like, what? the way these skills and passives are shuffled, no one is using dk in subclassing. if you decide not to subclass as a dk and use all the skill lines...gl and hf lol.

Coming from a PvP perspective (which I know is different to PvE), Draconic power now looks extremely enticing to run, not only on a Pure DK or DK base with Ardent Flame and Pyrebrand, but even sub-classed into another class on par with something like Animal Companions (assuming the numbers line up).

AoE incap that can't be purged (leaps unique and stacking damage done buff that works with named buffs like major berserk)
DK wings that gives speed, snare immunity, a stun and 50% ranged damage mitigation (basically better warden wings now)
A source of Major breach ("stam" breath) on a decent AoE that can be spammed in a pinch
AoE coag (means I can swap heal soul to something else for more utility while keeping a very strong heal that can also heal allies)
Chains grants Major evasion and Major berserk, 2 extremely powerful named buffs
Minor brutality (finally a way to damage stack instead of crit stack)
unique buffs to all AoEs and DoTs, not just DK AoEs and DoTs
battle roar (even toned down it's still a very strong passive and with how good the active skills potentially are, it will be close to current values just from this line alone, even on sub-classed builds)

Earthen Heart seems less enticing on a sub-classed build, but with the changes to corrosive shifting it back to (almost) how it used to be, I can see an extremely nasty pyrebrand + relequen + zaan DoT build that will melt enemies just like the old (pre-fix) savage werewolf procsorc builds used to back in U34. Especially if ZOS improves igneous weapons by making it proc burning status on every light/heavy attack instead of the single DoT tick, that way it synergizes better with ardent flame/draconic power passives. Shatterspike mantle seems very disgusting to add onto such a build, essentially being a mini-draugrkin (5 piece set) on the armor buff which can stack to some ridiculous numbers in PvP with how many DoTs/damage instances can potentially be stacked up via the aforementioned sets. The main downside I see in this line is the avalanche passive, it ramps too slowly and falls off too quickly to be effective in a practical sense.

Ardent flame seems the least enticing to me now, but it does grant major prophecy/savagery (best named buff) on a pseudo solar barrage (assuming it stays as an AoE over time ability like current FoO is) and whip being much easier to synergize with off-balance (although this could have been a 15 second cooldown instead of 20 seconds). There's also the health based HoT and there have been numerous complaints about health based heals in the past, so we all know how strong those are in PvP.

This doesn't mean I like every change and I have many other issues with the DK changes put forward (especially the removal of poison damage typing for stamDK and what that potentially means for future class reworks), but I can see that DK will definitely be a meta contender in PvP (again, depending on the numbers and other changes we see on the PTS/patch notes on Monday) and draconic power will definitely be a top tier sub-classing line to pick up for PvP (maybe even worth considering in PvE depending on the numbers) with the other 2 lines having some really nice effects/bonuses for not only pure DK, but any DK base and the fact they synergize much better together for a pure DK build (or DK with 1 sub-classed line) than they do with other class lines on a full sub-classed build is something many players have asked for since U46 to bring pure classes up to par with sub-classed builds.

It's definitely not a neat and tidy split of the lines into the 3 roles and (imo) that was/is the intent behind the class reworks (to make all classes similar to Sorcerer where the lines all have a mix of abilities for every role but provide more buffs to their respective pure classes than they will when sub-classed). I wish ZOS had done this before releasing sub-classing because these reworks seem designed to make sub-classing a real choice in engaging with the system or not based on playstyle, unique effects and themes, instead of being the current mindless swap out the 2 useless lines for my chosen role to sub in the BiS meta lines in their place.

TL//DR:
The DK changes, while definitely not perfect, and do bring some pressing issues I hope ZOS will clarify for future class reworks, do have some very strong arguments for sub-classing into (especially the previously unusable draconic power line), and definitely buff pure DK beyond just keeping 1 line for a given role then swapping out other lines for better lines from other classes. It does remain to be seen though what the actual numbers/tooltips are when we get a chance to see them on Monday to see if the numbers stack up to make the changes worth it.