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Should subclassing must been removed?
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BananaBender✭✭✭✭✭YesBananaBender wrote: »freespirit wrote: »I really cannot understand why so many people have got their knickers in a twist over this!!
It’s quite easy to understand.
You have these mid-tier players all trying to push content they are not ready for, being forced into builds they do not want to play because they have neither the experience, knowledge, or reputation to play something deemed “off-meta.”
They follow cookie-cutter builds from their favorite content creators, and now those creators are complaining because build videos are their job, and mid-tier strugglers are not interested in 2nd best, so they get not even a quarter of the add revenue that they would normally. Negative affirmation takes hold, and then you have those same mid players stumbling onto a forum to complain about how unhappy they are, oblivious to the incoming Class Reworks designed to help them.
“Source: dude, trust me.”
People dislike subclassing for a lot of different reasons. Trying to paint everyone who disagrees with you as the same kind of player, based on guesses and no real proof, doesn’t really help your point. It just comes off as dismissive.
Yeah, missed me with that.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/686417/a-masterpiece-best-admired-from-afar
When you have posts like these^ following the departure of a content creator, I don’t need you to “trust me” and to be honest I can’t even trust you.
You claim to have experience end-game raiding, and in the same breath claim to not run into these same ego freak mid-tier players, making posts like, “End-game players hate Subclassing” when they are nowhere near end-game, and would be laughed out of any serious group pushing trifectas back in the day.
Yeah, sorry. You guys don’t speak for us.
I never claimed to speak for everyone, in fact I explicitly stated "So, here is the reason why me and many other end game PvE players dislike subclassing, and think it was a terrible idea to begin with." With the "many other end game PvE players" I'm refering to the ones I've talked to, be it in my raid group or discords/twitch chats.
People often claim stuff about "the end-game" in eso, because it's a word without a clear meaning. You can ask 100 people what they think the endgame is and you will get wildly differing answers. In fact I posted a poll about that very topic some time ago (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/671200/what-do-you-consider-the-endgame-pve/p1)
You can quite easily tell how "end game" someone is by what they are saying.
As for my credentials on being an end game player, I do have one current trial world record, day 1 and EU first vOC trifecta and every single trifecta before that, but maybe the standards on being an "end game player" have increased during my ESO hiatus.
(I'm not BananaBender in game, but if you know where to look you can easily find the group I'm in)1 -
Radiate77✭✭✭✭✭NoBananaBender wrote: »
You can quite easily tell how "end game" someone is by what they are saying.BananaBender wrote: »freespirit wrote: »I really cannot understand why so many people have got their knickers in a twist over this!!
It’s quite easy to understand.
You have these mid-tier players all trying to push content they are not ready for, being forced into builds they do not want to play because they have neither the experience, knowledge, or reputation to play something deemed “off-meta.”
They follow cookie-cutter builds from their favorite content creators, and now those creators are complaining because build videos are their job, and mid-tier strugglers are not interested in 2nd best, so they get not even a quarter of the add revenue that they would normally. Negative affirmation takes hold, and then you have those same mid players stumbling onto a forum to complain about how unhappy they are, oblivious to the incoming Class Reworks designed to help them.
“Source: dude, trust me.”
People dislike subclassing for a lot of different reasons. Trying to paint everyone who disagrees with you as the same kind of player, based on guesses and no real proof, doesn’t really help your point. It just comes off as dismissive.
Yeah, missed me with that.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/686417/a-masterpiece-best-admired-from-afar
When you have posts like these^ following the departure of a content creator, I don’t need you to “trust me” and to be honest I can’t even trust you.
You claim to have experience end-game raiding, and in the same breath claim to not run into these same ego freak mid-tier players, making posts like, “End-game players hate Subclassing” when they are nowhere near end-game, and would be laughed out of any serious group pushing trifectas back in the day.
Yeah, sorry. You guys don’t speak for us.
Indeed. 🤔BananaBender wrote: »As for my credentials on being an end game player, I do have one current trial world record, day 1 and EU first vOC trifecta and every single trifecta before that, but maybe the standards on being an "end game player" have increased during my ESO hiatus.
(I'm not BananaBender in game, but if you know where to look you can easily find the group I'm in)BananaBender wrote: »“Source: dude, trust me.”0 -
BananaBender✭✭✭✭✭YesBananaBender wrote: »
You can quite easily tell how "end game" someone is by what they are saying.BananaBender wrote: »freespirit wrote: »I really cannot understand why so many people have got their knickers in a twist over this!!
It’s quite easy to understand.
You have these mid-tier players all trying to push content they are not ready for, being forced into builds they do not want to play because they have neither the experience, knowledge, or reputation to play something deemed “off-meta.”
They follow cookie-cutter builds from their favorite content creators, and now those creators are complaining because build videos are their job, and mid-tier strugglers are not interested in 2nd best, so they get not even a quarter of the add revenue that they would normally. Negative affirmation takes hold, and then you have those same mid players stumbling onto a forum to complain about how unhappy they are, oblivious to the incoming Class Reworks designed to help them.
“Source: dude, trust me.”
People dislike subclassing for a lot of different reasons. Trying to paint everyone who disagrees with you as the same kind of player, based on guesses and no real proof, doesn’t really help your point. It just comes off as dismissive.
Yeah, missed me with that.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/686417/a-masterpiece-best-admired-from-afar
When you have posts like these^ following the departure of a content creator, I don’t need you to “trust me” and to be honest I can’t even trust you.
You claim to have experience end-game raiding, and in the same breath claim to not run into these same ego freak mid-tier players, making posts like, “End-game players hate Subclassing” when they are nowhere near end-game, and would be laughed out of any serious group pushing trifectas back in the day.
Yeah, sorry. You guys don’t speak for us.
Indeed. 🤔
I'm HolyCheeseburger in game.
Current vOC world record
Day 1 vOC trifecta
Now that's out of the way, I take it that you disagree with something I stated in my original post? Is it the fact that build variety is effectively dead or the fact that there are a lot of people who would prefer a game with more competitively viable builds? Of course accurate numbers on the latter are impossible to come by, which is why I from the beginning stated to only speak for myself and from the experience I have from speaking to other players in the same raid environment. As for the build variety, I would love to hear how it could coexist with the way subclassing is currently introduced into the game if you have a view to share.7 -
Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YesNah nah, we're all wrong including the legions of posts in this growing thread all citing subclassing directly, or indirectly as their reasons of losing motivation to continue playing or outright quit. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/686364/what-has-caused-you-to-quit-the-game-or-barely-play-any-more-what-would-bring-you-back/p1
We're wrong, the subclassing hate is just because of a single content creator leaving. My eyes have been opened.1 -
Wereswan✭✭✭✭YesShould subclassing be removed? Yes, absolutely; it's an ill-considered feature that has made a joke of game balance. In that situation, the rational thing to do is to revert. Arguing that it's done and can't be un-done is simply a sunk cost fallacy.
Will it be removed? Nope, so we get to cross our fingers and hope that this class balance rework can right the ship.4 -
I really do not understand eventhough there are lots of people who want subclassing to be removed; this poll says otherwise. It is very strange.1 -
Radiate77✭✭✭✭✭NoSilverBride wrote: »
Then it wouldn’t apply to you.
It was pointed at our residential freaks that try and speak for our entire community when they couldn’t be further off-base, and this poll shows just that.1 -
Wereswan✭✭✭✭YesBloodRedHurricane wrote: »I really do not understand eventhough there are lots of people who want subclassing to be removed; this poll says otherwise. It is very strange.
Forum polls: famously authoritative, especially when they've been up for less than 12 hours.1 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NoBloodRedHurricane wrote: »I really do not understand eventhough there are lots of people who want subclassing to be removed; this poll says otherwise. It is very strange.
The reason I don't want it removed now is because I'm afraid that it will cause a lot of problems, not just with players being unhappy but with bugs and stability issues. This has been the buggiest content I ever remember in all the years I've played and at this point I think it's better to try to balance it with pure classes and not take a chance.PCNA2 -
heimdall14_9✭✭Yesspartaxoxo wrote: »No. It should be balanced and not removed.
so your ok with half made systems being put into the game because SUBCLASSING should have been BALANCED before being released not after , and now the players are looking at 3-4 YEARS of class change in the name of BALANCING SUBCLASSING something the development team SHOULD ALREADY OF DONE BEFORE THE RELEASE OF THE SYSTEMNordic-Knights (PSN)/Sir-A-Crowley (PSN)/Sir_Crowley ( PC) 16 account holder !!!!!!!!!!!!! 19x emperor , 98% full game all vet HM SR ND release day ESO VET !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!2 -
Radiate77✭✭✭✭✭Noheimdall14_9 wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »No. It should be balanced and not removed.
so your ok with half made systems being put into the game because SUBCLASSING should have been BALANCED before being released not after , and now the players are looking at 3-4 YEARS of class change in the name of BALANCING SUBCLASSING something the development team SHOULD ALREADY OF DONE BEFORE THE RELEASE OF THE SYSTEM
Nobody is arguing that Subclassing shouldn't have been balanced before release… but you can also say Arcanist should have been balanced before release.
And Oakensoul…
And Necromancer…
And Warden…
There are so many past instances of imbalance.
The standard was set years ago, and if you want to change that, focus on what’s next, not what’s behind you.Edited by Radiate77 on December 15, 2025 5:12AM7 -
M0ntie✭✭✭✭✭NoGet over it. Not going to happen. Move on.
IMO it was a bad move by ZoS in an attempt to placate a small number players who don't play much but wanted to be able to do everything on 1 character. But what is done is done. It has its fun aspects. Personally I'm much happier keeping it, than ZoS ditching it and YET AGAIN requiring a huge amount of grinding to get back to the same point you were at.0 -
aussie500✭✭✭NoI use subclassing on only one of 33 characters, I am happy enough with how she worked out and have no intention of changing any of the others. They want to improve subclassing even more I might reconsider using it more, but as it is I can take it or leave it. Just because I am not overly enthused about it is no reason to try and prevent others using subclassing.
Edit
I used subclassing to make my main character, and original character from years ago, (a stamina nightblade) more powerful since ZOS had nerfed her so bad she was no longer able to get an invitation to the latest vet trials. Either one of my sorcs or arcanists were wanted over her. She is considered good enough now to do anything, I am happy, but I have no intention of changing any of my other characters. Each of my alt accounts only have one nightblade, and I like them just as they are, they do not need to go compete to get into any vet trial. The arcanists can do it. They nerf the arcanists, I will go subclass my templars, or the nerfed arcanists.Edited by aussie500 on December 15, 2025 9:48AM0 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭OtherThey painted themselves into a corner with subclassing, just like they painted themselves into a corner with hybridization. Both of these changes narrowed the meta and really killed meaningful variety in this game, but unfortunately, once they released these "features," there's no going back. They've already frustrated and driven off some players by implementing these features, and if they completely reverse them 100%, there's no guarantee that you get those players back, but you are almost certainly going to upset those players who are still here and who enjoy those features, and then THOSE players will leave. It's a no-win situation which was entirely avoidable if only the Dev's actually had a vision for what they wanted for this game and just defended it, instead of trying to pander to this audience or the other.
That being said, that is not to say that substantial changes don't need to be made to subclassing to bring a better semblance of balance to the game. I have consistently been a proponent of allowing you to use ABILITIES from other classes, but not PASSIVES, as I think this is the what is causing such a huge imbalance. If you did this, you would still have some variety in your builds, but you wouldn't have the ability to stack so much power into the passive abilities, which amplify all of the abilities you are making use of. This, alone, would curb a LOT of the issues with Subclassing (I can't say it'll solve everything, but I think it would be a huge step in the right direction.1 -
DoofusMax✭✭✭✭NoBloodRedHurricane wrote: »I really do not understand eventhough there are lots of people who want subclassing to be removed; this poll says otherwise. It is very strange.
There is a difference between disliking how a concept was implemented and being in favor of removing it entirely. The basic idea of "be who you want to be and play how you want to play" is a decent one and it's pretty much characteristic of every Elder Scrolls game. In its broad outlines, the idea of subclassing fits with that theme and it does partially resolve the problem of character class being unchangeable.
I don't think that amount of character freedom works quite as well in an MMO as it does in a single player game, though. If your overpowered build is making Alduin keel over every time you sneeze, well, you kind of did that to yourself and it's that kind of potential for OP-ness which produces difficulty levels that mostly turn opponents into bullet sponges. However, the implementation of that idea in ESO resulted in "take the most powerful skill line from two other classes and go play" with no changes elsewhere to balance that. The doubled skill point cost and XP penalty only slow progression a bit rather than addressing the power spike, and 1500g is chump change. It's a bit more than half of one day's daily crafting writs on a Level 7 character; pay the fee, do your daily mount upgrade, and still have gold left over.
The idea of subclassing isn't irredeemably bad, but I think its implementation left pure-class players massively nerfed by comparison. And if you thought overland difficulty was bad before subclassing, the implementation has only made it even worse.I'm fresh out of outrage, but I could muster up some amused annoyance if required.2 -
The basic idea of "be who you want to be and play how you want to play" is a decent one and it's pretty much characteristic of every Elder Scrolls game.
Correct. Because of this reason; classes should not be the case in the first place but; sadly they were. Each had different class identity with flexibility thanks to both generic skill lines and guild skill lines. But; now class identity is gone. Can somebody explain why do people chose class in character creation if classes do not matter anymore? This is my problem, actually. Classes should have never been a thing but; after implemented them you cannot just warp it this way. This is wrong. If you want to make this in true way; totally remove all classes and let characters learn every possible skill throughout their adventures like in skyrim. For example; if you want arcanist abilities you have to learn it from a Mora guild, if you want to learn about Necro you should learn it from Reach clan etc. If you wanna learn about Warden you should seek nature-affiliated groups (not spinners; they are different and separate organizations). If this was the case; I would never ever complain about subclassing or skill line colors.
The main reason for me to open this poll is seeing how many people really want subclassing to be removed entirely. Because; there were lots of people complaining and I was curious. Interestingly enough, there is a huge contradiction. Some people really like subclassing; while others dislike it but; at the same time they fear removing subclassing would potentially decrease game's poor stability further so; they do not want subclassing to be removed.Edited by BloodRedHurricane on December 15, 2025 4:32PM0 -
JaxontheUnfortunate✭✭✭✭OtherI think subclassing provides great flexibility with building a character out, however what should not have been allowed is stacking three similar lines together (ie: three damage skill lines).0 -
Destai✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭YesPDarkBHood wrote: »Let's keep it. I am enjoying it very much as is. But I would also have no issues if they try to balance it. It is here to stay. Don't forget you do not have to subclass if you do not want to, yeah, yeah the <1% of you are forced to use subclassing. Also, the latest twitch video goes into subclassing in some detail:
I appreciate Alec's perspectives. He seems to get it - that you can't balance around spreadsheets and numbers alone. I support the spirit of the endeavor they're undertaking. But the timeline seems like it's too spread it. We're looking at years of work where some classes will feel more modern than others. My preference would've been to do all of this at once.
One thing I find a little disappointing is they're worried about feedback changing internal piplelines, as they said. Well, IMO, they should be open to changing the timeline. For all they've said about doing it right and taking their time, there may come a point where you have to extend a pipeline. You're already creating a situation where there'll be imbalances, and releasing something against feedback will only make this work.
All that being said, I still don't think subclassing is healthy for the game. If we get to a point where each class has unique mechanics, I just don't see those will matter in a subclassing environment. So for example, I can subclass into Arcanist, but no other skill lines use Crux.
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Gabrielzavadski✭✭✭YesSubclassing has disproportionately affected my gameplay, and it affects the way I want to play. My pure-classes; all 7 of them represented across over a dozen max-level battle-ready-geared-out characters, as beautiful and perfect as the day they were made are now "sub-optimal" and I have to put in 2x the effort to maintain my playstyle while still getting judged and looked down on for playing how I want to play and have been playing for over 11 years. I have to put in double the effort, combined with my extensive experience... Anyone else on a more casual level of variance who has similar views and wants to enjoy their pure-class the way they were promised are now at a severe disadvantage. And if they underperform will be compelled or forced to change.
It's exacerbated the overall imbalance of the entire game, both PvE and PvP. All players have become uniform. Everyone in PvE uses the same rotation, the same gear. Everyone in PvP has lightning form active and fires merciless resolves timed with shalks at each other. No distinctions, no taste, no art. Just uniformity, homogenization, and sameness.
Lmfao i'm glad i left the game. I legit left and uninstalled it when i saw ZOS would add subclassing. Skill crafting was already bad lol... I knew i made the right decision!!! The only thing I miss is the classic ESO, buried below tons of bad decisions to please casuals, and my PvP characters... welp, there are better games to play xD goodbye 15k recorded steam hours (waves goodbye with dark circles under the eyes and a tired face)Glory for the Pact!1 -
Fischblut✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NoSubclassing returned me from a retired player who mostly did some dailies for Seals to an inspired player who is eager to complete arenas, veteran trials and many dungeons trifectas I've had no interest in doing previously.
Without the subclassing and Arcanist line for my favorite main Nightblade character, I would never return to vet Dragonstar since the disrespectful destruction of our old vet weapons from it, I would never go into vet Blackrose Prison to get the title I only dreamed of, I would never start doing trials on vet, and I would skip almost all dungeon hard modes from past few years.
I even started healing seriously, the role I personally disliked the most for my characters. From healing some old veteran no-DLC dungeons many years ago, to some stuff I never imagined doing as healer
It's easier to ask friends to go as tank if I'm not afraid to go as heal.
Tank friend: "Hey, let's do this dlc dungeon trifecta."
Me as heal *never looked at the video tutorial about mechanics for that dungeon, was there only one time on vet maybe 2 years ago, as 3 dd run and there were lot of resurrection chains between dds*: "Sure! I don't really remember mechanics there though, so we might need few tries."
Then we do trifecta there on second try, while I still don't understand some of stuff there and don't know optimized combat strats for that dungeon
As for tanking, I'm only getting used to subclassed tanks, can't find my perfect combos yet
And only thanks to subclassing I have recreated one of my most-favorite cartoon characters.
Also, one of my own favorite characters is actually pure class, he does some nice stuff in PvP.
All gameplay options are covered, and I see no problems - of course, I will always welcome buffs to anything
If pure classes/subclassing/Arcanist will be nerfed, I will be very sad and become retired veteran player again who only does some daily stuff and quests again :'(1 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭NoDestroyerPewnack wrote: »I'm surprised by how many people voted no. In an effort to rationalize the results so far, I'll say the folks who voted no are either casual players who don't care about playing meta builds, or that the good folks who would have voted yes have already left the game, which is why they're underrepresented in the poll.
I just don't understand how anybody who plays endgame and uses meta builds would ever be happy with subclassing. I say remove it, and remove hybridization, even though I know neither one of those things will ever happen.
No, its just that the poll isnt specifically worded. Many players like subclassing. I like subclassing. Its way more in line with how I like to play. In fact I would prefer that set classes dont exist at all. Or if they must let me build a custom class on character creation.
No what many players, like myself, didn't and dont like is HOW subclassing was implemented and how it's balanced.
And rather than nerf subclassing I would prefer they buff class lines to bring them in line with the BIS lines we see now.
And rather than this classes can do everything stuff, I would prefer thst zos just introduce new skill lines to compensate.2 -
fizzybeef✭✭✭✭✭YesBananaBender wrote: »freespirit wrote: »I really cannot understand why so many people have got their knickers in a twist over this!!
It’s quite easy to understand.
You have these mid-tier players all trying to push content they are not ready for, being forced into builds they do not want to play because they have neither the experience, knowledge, or reputation to play something deemed “off-meta.”
They follow cookie-cutter builds from their favorite content creators, and now those creators are complaining because build videos are their job, and mid-tier strugglers are not interested in 2nd best, so they get not even a quarter of the add revenue that they would normally. Negative affirmation takes hold, and then you have those same mid players stumbling onto a forum to complain about how unhappy they are, oblivious to the incoming Class Reworks designed to help them.
“Source: dude, trust me.”
People dislike subclassing for a lot of different reasons. Trying to paint everyone who disagrees with you as the same kind of player, based on guesses and no real proof, doesn’t really help your point. It just comes off as dismissive.
Yeah, sorry. You guys don’t speak for us.
They do speak for the loads of people who quitted since subclassing was released thought.
I appreciate how youre pushing the pro subclassing agenda with passion, for real.
But in the long run the current path ZOS is chosing to go, is harming the game, as we can tell by the dwinding of the playerbase and the unhappyness of the community since months - years. Specially the last year made everything only worse.
I can just tell you, ZOS wont be paying for infrastructure and servers to keep this game alive for 100 solo players, when everyone else quitted.
And atm thats the trend, people going on masses.1
