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Honestly - Is Vengeance Viable?
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BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
What? You are incorrect, WoW's PvP is the most accessible PvP ever. Just reach the expansion's max level, and you are good to go and mostly on equal footing with everyone else. Which is similar to how vengeance works. Even the time-to-kill between vengeance and WoW is similar(5+ seconds), noone there dies within a single second as is the case in grey host.BardokRedSnow wrote: »MorallyBipolar wrote: »Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.
ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.
Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.
I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.
The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.
If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.
Right….. Cause if all you do is PvP and all you have is Vengeance there’s no reason to play the rest of the game cause it’s makes PvE irrelevant for PvPers. Thanks for proven a point with your entitlement.
Majority of players are pure PvE players or mostly PvE players occasional PvPing, there are enaugh of them that you don’t have to force pure PvPer to do PvE content to keep it full when most players do the PvE content without even needing the rewards for PvP.
Content that you have to force players to play because they don’t do it for fun is bad content
Everyone who plays PvP in ESO starts from the same level as well. It's the same hill to climb for everyone.
No, it isn't. Back in 2014 you didn't even have a jewlerly system. Now, there are several more systems that were added over the years, and players need to understand them all in order to stay competitive. You were able to incorporate them one by one, but a new player has to figure out everything at once.
World of Warcraft has been going on for much longer than eso yet retains a massive fanbase and their complexity for new players is even more daunting than this. Waaaay more of a learning curve and way more preparation needed.
This is the best example that vengeance in an mmo doesn’t belong, if it were a team fortress esque shooter then sure, maybe Bethesda should make one lol but it ain’t. WoW is on a downward trajectory for other reasons but it ain’t because the PvP isn’t accessible for John_WoW right off the jump.
John_ESO67 not getting to own the sweats right off the jump is not a bad thing. The feeling of mastery and earning is required to keep people playing.
Lol that is so far from true, the amount of work you gotta go through just to understand your own custom layout of the skills, your UI essentially for keybinds and addons, which no one's is the same, and grinding for gear and levels prior to being max when people dont even want to play with you if you're new to the game...
You aint picking up wow and being pvp ready in two weeks like yall want in Vengeance. WoW is literally infamous for its increasing learning curve to new players.Edited by BardokRedSnow on December 14, 2025 2:52PMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...2 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
You do realize I have played WoW for many years, even maintained a high arena rating(2vs2) for multiple expansions. From BC to Pandaria.BardokRedSnow wrote: »
What? You are incorrect, WoW's PvP is the most accessible PvP ever. Just reach the expansion's max level, and you are good to go and mostly on equal footing with everyone else. Which is similar to how vengeance works. Even the time-to-kill between vengeance and WoW is similar(5+ seconds), noone there dies within a single second as is the case in grey host.BardokRedSnow wrote: »MorallyBipolar wrote: »Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.
ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.
Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.
I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.
The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.
If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.
Right….. Cause if all you do is PvP and all you have is Vengeance there’s no reason to play the rest of the game cause it’s makes PvE irrelevant for PvPers. Thanks for proven a point with your entitlement.
Majority of players are pure PvE players or mostly PvE players occasional PvPing, there are enaugh of them that you don’t have to force pure PvPer to do PvE content to keep it full when most players do the PvE content without even needing the rewards for PvP.
Content that you have to force players to play because they don’t do it for fun is bad content
Everyone who plays PvP in ESO starts from the same level as well. It's the same hill to climb for everyone.
No, it isn't. Back in 2014 you didn't even have a jewlerly system. Now, there are several more systems that were added over the years, and players need to understand them all in order to stay competitive. You were able to incorporate them one by one, but a new player has to figure out everything at once.
World of Warcraft has been going on for much longer than eso yet retains a massive fanbase and their complexity for new players is even more daunting than this. Waaaay more of a learning curve and way more preparation needed.
This is the best example that vengeance in an mmo doesn’t belong, if it were a team fortress esque shooter then sure, maybe Bethesda should make one lol but it ain’t. WoW is on a downward trajectory for other reasons but it ain’t because the PvP isn’t accessible for John_WoW right off the jump.
John_ESO67 not getting to own the sweats right off the jump is not a bad thing. The feeling of mastery and earning is required to keep people playing.
Lol that is so far from true, the amount of work you gotta go through just to understand your own custom layout of the skills, your UI essentially for keybinds and addons, which no one's is the same, and grinding for gear and levels prior to being max when people dont even want to play with you if you're new to the game...
You aint picking up wow and being pvp ready in two weeks like yall want in Vengeance. WoW is literally infamous for its increasing learning curve to new players.
We're talking about max level PvP though, and in WoW you can just jump in PvP at max level and be on a mostly similar level to other players. Min-maxing there does make a difference, but not so much that it offsets a playerskill difference, basically a 5-10% difference tops when min-maxing. Yes, WoW has more skills accessible at all times versus ESO's 5 skills + 1 ultimate. But that is just learning how each game functions. Having more skills available on an equal character does not mean the PvP is harder to learn/understand, once you know all the skills available you are good to go. Whereas in ESO after you reach maximum level you first need to gear up(collect gear), make/find a build(including gather skillpoints), and learn the build. In WoW you only learn the build. UI-wise and add-on-wise both games are very similar.
In WoW you can reach max level and go PvP in fair/equal battles right away, in ESO you can reach max level go PvP and will be one-shot over and over. WoW has more skills but a fair characterbuild system, ESO has less skills but an unfair characterbuild system.
Time to kill in vengeance is similar WoW's PvP, both are accessible right away. Just check some youtube PvP videos from WoW, and you can easily see this to be true. No one-shots anywhere, ever!
Just a rough but true estimate: In WoW your power is 90% base character(leveling/skills from leveling), 5% gear, and 5% playerskill. In ESO your power is 5% base character, 85% gear(build), 10% playerskill. As you can see with ESO, without the gear/build you are getting nowhere close to a similar level as the top PvPers. Even if those top PvPers aren't even good PvPers.
So yes: I can pick up WoW, level to max level, and am PvP ready right away(except for learning how to play the character).3 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭LennaTheRussian wrote: »But im claiming vengeance wont be populated if it becomes a option and this will make the most vengeance enthusiasts play GH.
This is wrong, most of the players in Vengeance are casuals. The pvp player base is very small in comparison. Today was proof you're wrong on this. Both GH and Vengeance were open and Vengeance still had plenty of zergs on all sides (PCNA). I don't know why people are obsessed with comparing bars when it's already been established that the max player count is way higher than GH.
And no the bonuses are not the only reason it's still popular currently. When a new player joins cyro and they first join GH (because that's the only one that ever has players normally) they will be stomped with zero chance of winning. But if they join Vengeance they'll actually be able to play the game and experience pvp and not die in two seconds to some max CP player running meta gear and skills or a ball group.
Yes a dead campaign = no new players. But that is because they're all the same campaigns. The only difference is one no cp campaign and one below level 50. But the below level 50 one is dead because there's not enough players to sustain it and people don't bother making new toons just to rejoin it unless it's to troll real new players.
With Vengeance at least it's a different way to play pvp that is easier for the casual or new player to play. Believe me when I say a casual looks at GH and wants to stay far away from it. It's just not good pvp for them because pve and pvp are vastly different.
Currently the only way as a new player to enjoy pvp is BG's because they at least have a below level 50 version that is populated some of the time.
So yeah keeping Vengeance is fine and not going to be a problem for GH, as you said most hardcore pvp players will stay in GH. It could sustain itself if the pvp community would stop being so toxic towards the idea, the unique part of Cyro is the siege and capturing stuff, not the pvp gameplay. And Vengeance allows a way bigger player cap due to the reduction of sets and problematic calculations. Which in turns allows for better attacking and defending moments.
Time will show who is right, im just saying 11 years people who began to play pvp started in GH and adapted instead of playing training wheel pvp.
I believe this will continue.
11 years people surely didn’t started to play PvP in GreyHost nor any other cp campaign because neither GreyHost nor cp existed 11 years ago.
If you mean they started in a campaign with builds instead of templates this is true but 11 years ago everyone was a new player and you could type lfg and play Pickupgroup against other PuGs consisting of new players so you didn’t had to be good.
Nowadays even having good build isn’t enaugh to have fun in GH/BR because PuGs are dead, soloplay is dead and premades will don’t invite you in group for beeing a zergling (even when you never play in group or attack outnumbered players) and unskilled and zerg you themself on sight as „revenge“.
Everyone has to learn the same things to be decent at PvP. Everyone starts from 0 and goes from there. The main complaint seems to be it's too hard. That complaint doesn't register for those who have put in the effort and made it work for them, and it shouldn't.
"There is no try, only do" - Yoda4 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »
Vengeance PCNA 4PM Tuesday.
The only reason why it's not viable is because people don't want to play in an empty campaign. When GH wasn't around and the people that apparently "hated Vengeance" so much that they stopped playing pvp entirely, Vengeance was booming with new players and always had big fights going on.
If it's hated so much by the pvp community then why was it packed on PCNA? Because people enjoy it, but now that GH is back to skew the numbers and make people think GH has more players, people don't want to bother joining Vengeance because they think it's dead (which it is because GH is deceptive with it's bars.)
It's not dead because no one liked playing it, if that was the case then no one would have played it. The bonus ap they offered is not that good of an incentive.
Just accept its dead. And thats good.
GH never needed incentives to be populated.
Time to move on, be part of pvp in GH or let it be and stay outside.
As long people are not forced to play it, vengeance will not become populated. And it was only populated because there was no other way to play cyro pvp and people got lurked with double ap lmao.
Pretty sad you're that desperate tbh.
Not desperated at all, because the actions of the players who straight left vengeance as soon it was possible, just proved the game mode is not accepted or wanted.
If Zos brings that game mode aside of grey host you can have fun fighting guards or three people. It will be like IC basically.
Im happy about all that.
And I can't wait for GH to be retired and Vengeance to take over. All the people who hate Vengeance will flock over. There really only needs to be one campaign and GH is just terrible. It's pretty clear that ZOS's plans are to retire GH and add in a new smaller scale version in replace of it.
Forcing Grey Host players to play in Vengeance demonstrates a complete lack of confidence that Vengeance can attract a player base on its own merits. Which is sad.
Honestly, it probably can. It just won't happen overnight. Vengeance boosters need to put in the work to get new players to try it out. That would be a much more productive use of time and energy than trying to steal away other people's campaigns.
Telling the truth isn't sad, ZOS isn't putting all this effort into Vengeance just to let it flop, and the data clearly proves that when it's the only campaign around, it's popular. So sorry to say but most likely GH is gone in the next year and Vengeance is the only campaign left for full scale Cyro.
And it's not a lack of confidence, it's reality. There just isn't enough players to sustain two campaigns. Ofc GH is popular because that's where ballgroups and 1vXers shine. But the majority of the ESO community hate that and just normal siege pvp with massive battles and no annoying pull sets and bombers.
If the majority of the ESO community hates Grey Host then why aren't they all playing in Vengeance?
Without all of the traditional PvP sweats they should be having the times of their lives.
Because it's missing the boost of the GH pvp community, people are playing Vengeance still. Just fought a zerg with another zerg. If it was the only campaign then it would be more active. Let's be real and stop acting like GH is always populated, it's only populated when a pvp guild decides to get on because people move to where the numbers are, and it's a known fact that for some reason pvp guilds were protesting Vengeance while coming onto the forums to whine about it.
Grey Host players aren't props for other people's amusement, though. They are playing the mode that they enjoy and don't need to justify that preference to anyone.
Vengeance as a campaign needs to put in its own work to build its own population base rather than having one simply handed to it.moderatelyfatman wrote: »If people want to play vengeance when it goes live as permanent option, nobody is forcing them.
But trust me they will have not many to fight, because people prefere GH.
Thats just the reality. The Vengeance enjoyers are a noisy MINORITY.
Zos is on a really wrong path pushing this and making this as only option would just result in more people quitting the game.
I know for a fact i would do, and i know for a fact im not the only one.
GH is not perfect but i prefere it 100x over what ever Vengeance is.
Yeah, the game dropped below 10k daily logins on the Steam Charts in November 2024 for the first time in 6 years.
Then it dropped below 9k in September 2025 and has stayed below that since.
I think the remaining players are the daily casuals, fashinistas and housing enthusiasts plus a small smattering of diehard PvPers (Cyrodiil, not BGs or IC) and endgame PvErs.
Now I'm waiting for the conspiracy theorists to come out and say that since only a percentage of players are on Steam and therefore the trends are meaningless. Or maybe that the long term decline is simply Steam players moving over to Epic to take advantage of the clearly superior platform.
Even if the conspiracy theorists claim the chart is not viable, its a trend indicator. It doesnt need to be 100% accurate.
The numbers dropped and continue to drop massively, because ZOS is on a wrong path since years.
Subclassing, Vengeance are just symptoms
To me it looks like removing the annual chapter release model, combined with vengeance is driving away a lot of the PvP and PvE populations at the same time.
And what chance does ZOS have to turn this trend around with super low pre-sale rates and a massively reduced work force?
I honestly disagree. I think the meta shift because of subclassing is what is driving away people from PVP. Sure, vengeance doesn't make that any better but I find it hard to believe vengeance has caused a bigger ripple than subclassing despite subclassing having a longer time to cause damage.
Vengeance can only have made an already bad situation, worse.
Vengeance definitely plays a role. Every time that a Vengeance test interrupts normal Cyrodiil folk in my PvP guild go on a break while playing other games and then never come back. And I have no reason to believe that my guild is unique in that regard.
Uncertainty is a huge issue because people don't know if everything that they've done in the game that they care about will randomly go up in smoke. And simply the interruption of a player's daily rhythm of logging-in and such. Once you mess with that inertia by having a Vengeance-only week then their connection to the game as a whole is substantially weakened.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »LennaTheRussian wrote: »
Vengeance PCNA 4PM Tuesday.
The only reason why it's not viable is because people don't want to play in an empty campaign. When GH wasn't around and the people that apparently "hated Vengeance" so much that they stopped playing pvp entirely, Vengeance was booming with new players and always had big fights going on.
If it's hated so much by the pvp community then why was it packed on PCNA? Because people enjoy it, but now that GH is back to skew the numbers and make people think GH has more players, people don't want to bother joining Vengeance because they think it's dead (which it is because GH is deceptive with it's bars.)
It's not dead because no one liked playing it, if that was the case then no one would have played it. The bonus ap they offered is not that good of an incentive.
Just accept its dead. And thats good.
GH never needed incentives to be populated.
Time to move on, be part of pvp in GH or let it be and stay outside.
As long people are not forced to play it, vengeance will not become populated. And it was only populated because there was no other way to play cyro pvp and people got lurked with double ap lmao.
Pretty sad you're that desperate tbh.
Not desperated at all, because the actions of the players who straight left vengeance as soon it was possible, just proved the game mode is not accepted or wanted.
If Zos brings that game mode aside of grey host you can have fun fighting guards or three people. It will be like IC basically.
Im happy about all that.
And I can't wait for GH to be retired and Vengeance to take over. All the people who hate Vengeance will flock over. There really only needs to be one campaign and GH is just terrible. It's pretty clear that ZOS's plans are to retire GH and add in a new smaller scale version in replace of it.
Forcing Grey Host players to play in Vengeance demonstrates a complete lack of confidence that Vengeance can attract a player base on its own merits. Which is sad.
Honestly, it probably can. It just won't happen overnight. Vengeance boosters need to put in the work to get new players to try it out. That would be a much more productive use of time and energy than trying to steal away other people's campaigns.
Telling the truth isn't sad, ZOS isn't putting all this effort into Vengeance just to let it flop, and the data clearly proves that when it's the only campaign around, it's popular. So sorry to say but most likely GH is gone in the next year and Vengeance is the only campaign left for full scale Cyro.
And it's not a lack of confidence, it's reality. There just isn't enough players to sustain two campaigns. Ofc GH is popular because that's where ballgroups and 1vXers shine. But the majority of the ESO community hate that and just normal siege pvp with massive battles and no annoying pull sets and bombers.
If the majority of the ESO community hates Grey Host then why aren't they all playing in Vengeance?
Without all of the traditional PvP sweats they should be having the times of their lives.
Because it's missing the boost of the GH pvp community, people are playing Vengeance still. Just fought a zerg with another zerg. If it was the only campaign then it would be more active. Let's be real and stop acting like GH is always populated, it's only populated when a pvp guild decides to get on because people move to where the numbers are, and it's a known fact that for some reason pvp guilds were protesting Vengeance while coming onto the forums to whine about it.
Grey Host players aren't props for other people's amusement, though. They are playing the mode that they enjoy and don't need to justify that preference to anyone.
Vengeance as a campaign needs to put in its own work to build its own population base rather than having one simply handed to it.moderatelyfatman wrote: »If people want to play vengeance when it goes live as permanent option, nobody is forcing them.
But trust me they will have not many to fight, because people prefere GH.
Thats just the reality. The Vengeance enjoyers are a noisy MINORITY.
Zos is on a really wrong path pushing this and making this as only option would just result in more people quitting the game.
I know for a fact i would do, and i know for a fact im not the only one.
GH is not perfect but i prefere it 100x over what ever Vengeance is.
Yeah, the game dropped below 10k daily logins on the Steam Charts in November 2024 for the first time in 6 years.
Then it dropped below 9k in September 2025 and has stayed below that since.
I think the remaining players are the daily casuals, fashinistas and housing enthusiasts plus a small smattering of diehard PvPers (Cyrodiil, not BGs or IC) and endgame PvErs.
Now I'm waiting for the conspiracy theorists to come out and say that since only a percentage of players are on Steam and therefore the trends are meaningless. Or maybe that the long term decline is simply Steam players moving over to Epic to take advantage of the clearly superior platform.
Even if the conspiracy theorists claim the chart is not viable, its a trend indicator. It doesnt need to be 100% accurate.
The numbers dropped and continue to drop massively, because ZOS is on a wrong path since years.
Subclassing, Vengeance are just symptoms
To me it looks like removing the annual chapter release model, combined with vengeance is driving away a lot of the PvP and PvE populations at the same time.
And what chance does ZOS have to turn this trend around with super low pre-sale rates and a massively reduced work force?
I honestly disagree. I think the meta shift because of subclassing is what is driving away people from PVP. Sure, vengeance doesn't make that any better but I find it hard to believe vengeance has caused a bigger ripple than subclassing despite subclassing having a longer time to cause damage.
Vengeance can only have made an already bad situation, worse.
Vengeance definitely plays a role. Every time that a Vengeance test interrupts normal Cyrodiil folk in my PvP guild go on a break while playing other games and then never come back. And I have no reason to believe that my guild is unique in that regard.
Uncertainty is a huge issue because people don't know if everything that they've done in the game that they care about will randomly go up in smoke. And simply the interruption of a player's daily rhythm of logging-in and such. Once you mess with that inertia by having a Vengeance-only week then their connection to the game as a whole is substantially weakened.
Sure, but I was never arguing against that. It seems like deflection to claim vengeance is the sole killer of Cyrodiil as if the state of the game hasn't been inherently bad on all fronts. For example, people are STILL to this day debating subclassing's effects on this game both good and bad, months after it has become a permanent thing where we can't reverse course and even more so after the devs statement over re-looking class dynamics. To claim such, you'd have to completely ignore all the other problems that exist in the game.
Again, like I said, before, it's a compounding problem; vengeance can only bad a bad situation even worse. It wouldn't really make a good game(which I doubt many people think the current state of the game is good, especially the pvp crowd), suddenly bad.
Sure, but if someone is ambiently frustrated with the state of the game and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good. Which I've seen happen countless times over the last 9 or whatever months that Vengeance-only testing has been a thing.
If players are too frustrated to have much fun and are only stuck in routine than Vengeance breaking that routine is doing them a favor.
So why do we blame Vengeance only for freeing them of that routine and not also the problems in GreyHost that frustrated them?
Is keeping players that lost fun playing stuck in routine a good thing?
Maybe it helps keep the player numbers up for a while but players should play for fun not for routine.
If breaking their routine for a week is enaugh to make them quit than holidays without PC or work overtime or broken wrist or any other routine break would have done the same.
Maybe ZOS should fix the things making GH players frustrated instead of stop Vengeance tests to keep them stuck in routine.
Vengeance isn't helping anyone in any way. If vengeance becomes mandated ESO PvP dies, and the rest of the game either dies or goes into a never changing maintenance mode. It'll be like Skyrim with other people running around doing the same things they've already done 1,000 times before.2 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭MorallyBipolar wrote: »Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.
ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.
It sure was. Now ZOS is refusing to even try to fix Grey Host, which was an original part of the game from the beginning.
So a few points here.
First, ZOS should fix the PvP they originally designed into the game. They can fix it. It might take some effort or investment they don't want to make, but it can be done. They've done it before. They can do it again. So ZOS stating they're not even going to try fixing their product going forward is a vendor saying they're selling a product they're not going to support. This is obviously a highly self destructive business and public relations decision.
Second, if ZOS can't make their premier PvP work smoothly and reliably as it is now, they're not going to be able to make some other new system work smoothly and reliably either.
And third, if the last three days are any indication, essentially nobody will play vengeance with or without an alternative. The last three nights prime time PC NA has been pop locked for Grey Host and vengeance hasn't even filled one bar of population. Almost nobody likes vengeance.
Any investments into vengeance should be ceased immediately to save resources so ZOS can invest in actually fixing their game as opposed to creating something totally different. I mean, what's happened to all those "THEY'RE WORKING ON IT!" explanations and commitments to the player base?
^ This. I'm flabbergasted that ZOS is now selling a product they've committed to not supporting. It's a mystifying business decision. I can't imagine it working, but judging by some of the posts on the topic, who knows.2 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭MorallyBipolar wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »This isn't it's final form so it's hard to say. No new stuff is being added but they're going to be looking at its damage/healing balance.
If they can't fix Grey Host they can't develop a new system that will work properly either.
How is this self evident truth not obvious to everyone?2 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭MorallyBipolar wrote: »Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.
ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.
Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.
I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.
The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.
If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.
Right….. Cause if all you do is PvP and all you have is Vengeance there’s no reason to play the rest of the game cause it’s makes PvE irrelevant for PvPers. Thanks for proven a point with your entitlement.
Majority of players are pure PvE players or mostly PvE players occasional PvPing, there are enaugh of them that you don’t have to force pure PvPer to do PvE content to keep it full when most players do the PvE content without even needing the rewards for PvP.
Content that you have to force players to play because they don’t do it for fun is bad content
Everyone who plays PvP in ESO starts from the same level as well. It's the same hill to climb for everyone.
No, it isn't. Back in 2014 you didn't even have a jewlerly system. Now, there are several more systems that were added over the years, and players need to understand them all in order to stay competitive. You were able to incorporate them one by one, but a new player has to figure out everything at once.
Everyone climbs a ladder one rung at a time. Climbing a short ladder takes the same effort as a tall ladder, it just takes longer to climb a taller ladder is all.3 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.
And yet Cyrodiil was hugely popular on release and Vengeance is dead. So what’s your point?
I saw more than one bar population on vengeance the first two days this time around. After that I haven't seen more than one bar on any faction at any time. Meanwhile GH is pop locked every day prime time and earlier on weekends, same as usual.
Even with the added rewards from vengeance most people still prefer GH.3 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
You do realize I have played WoW for many years, even maintained a high arena rating(2vs2) for multiple expansions. From BC to Pandaria.BardokRedSnow wrote: »
What? You are incorrect, WoW's PvP is the most accessible PvP ever. Just reach the expansion's max level, and you are good to go and mostly on equal footing with everyone else. Which is similar to how vengeance works. Even the time-to-kill between vengeance and WoW is similar(5+ seconds), noone there dies within a single second as is the case in grey host.BardokRedSnow wrote: »MorallyBipolar wrote: »Grey Host has been part of the game since inception (maybe not with same name). ZOS should fix the game they created not waste time creating something new that won't help their business in any capacity.
ESO was originally marketed as a PvP game too, Cyrodiil was literally the endgame.
Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.
I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.
The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.
If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.
Right….. Cause if all you do is PvP and all you have is Vengeance there’s no reason to play the rest of the game cause it’s makes PvE irrelevant for PvPers. Thanks for proven a point with your entitlement.
Majority of players are pure PvE players or mostly PvE players occasional PvPing, there are enaugh of them that you don’t have to force pure PvPer to do PvE content to keep it full when most players do the PvE content without even needing the rewards for PvP.
Content that you have to force players to play because they don’t do it for fun is bad content
Everyone who plays PvP in ESO starts from the same level as well. It's the same hill to climb for everyone.
No, it isn't. Back in 2014 you didn't even have a jewlerly system. Now, there are several more systems that were added over the years, and players need to understand them all in order to stay competitive. You were able to incorporate them one by one, but a new player has to figure out everything at once.
World of Warcraft has been going on for much longer than eso yet retains a massive fanbase and their complexity for new players is even more daunting than this. Waaaay more of a learning curve and way more preparation needed.
This is the best example that vengeance in an mmo doesn’t belong, if it were a team fortress esque shooter then sure, maybe Bethesda should make one lol but it ain’t. WoW is on a downward trajectory for other reasons but it ain’t because the PvP isn’t accessible for John_WoW right off the jump.
John_ESO67 not getting to own the sweats right off the jump is not a bad thing. The feeling of mastery and earning is required to keep people playing.
Lol that is so far from true, the amount of work you gotta go through just to understand your own custom layout of the skills, your UI essentially for keybinds and addons, which no one's is the same, and grinding for gear and levels prior to being max when people dont even want to play with you if you're new to the game...
You aint picking up wow and being pvp ready in two weeks like yall want in Vengeance. WoW is literally infamous for its increasing learning curve to new players.
We're talking about max level PvP though, and in WoW you can just jump in PvP at max level and be on a mostly similar level to other players. Min-maxing there does make a difference, but not so much that it offsets a playerskill difference, basically a 5-10% difference tops when min-maxing. Yes, WoW has more skills accessible at all times versus ESO's 5 skills + 1 ultimate. But that is just learning how each game functions. Having more skills available on an equal character does not mean the PvP is harder to learn/understand, once you know all the skills available you are good to go. Whereas in ESO after you reach maximum level you first need to gear up(collect gear), make/find a build(including gather skillpoints), and learn the build. In WoW you only learn the build. UI-wise and add-on-wise both games are very similar.
In WoW you can reach max level and go PvP in fair/equal battles right away, in ESO you can reach max level go PvP and will be one-shot over and over. WoW has more skills but a fair characterbuild system, ESO has less skills but an unfair characterbuild system.
Time to kill in vengeance is similar WoW's PvP, both are accessible right away. Just check some youtube PvP videos from WoW, and you can easily see this to be true. No one-shots anywhere, ever!
Just a rough but true estimate: In WoW your power is 90% base character(leveling/skills from leveling), 5% gear, and 5% playerskill. In ESO your power is 5% base character, 85% gear(build), 10% playerskill. As you can see with ESO, without the gear/build you are getting nowhere close to a similar level as the top PvPers. Even if those top PvPers aren't even good PvPers.
So yes: I can pick up WoW, level to max level, and am PvP ready right away(except for learning how to play the character).
The same is true for eso, you can easily get someone leveled and geared for PvP without even a need for addons in a very short period of time, by someone that at least knows basics of building for general end game PvP. Much easier than wow. And that’s what Greyhost is, end game high end PvP. You basically just proved my point exactly with this statement.
You being a wow player for years doesn’t make you anymore right than Xylena who has been playing for years also, you are not a new player. You have the knowledge and know how to do this alone conceptually, a day one new wow player does not. It’s not a new concept you can find post after post of players complaining about it.
And lol the UI setup and addons is not similar at all biggest difference is most players there actually do use macros while eso it’s bannable specifically because wow has so much going on in comparison:
That people feel the need to use those to play the game well is another point. People complaining about eso PvP would be in hell trying to switch to WoW
I’m not talking about with additional help or had holding or a vet getting a new toon ready for PvP but a fresh newbie to both games, WoW is much more daunting than esoEdited by BardokRedSnow on December 14, 2025 6:31PMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...0 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭Unless any of yall here really wanna pretend a game that you have to learn to use macros for because you’re pressing so many hotkeys for so many different skills doesn’t have a bigger learning curve than eso with only six skills on each bar and now sometimes only ONE bar lol. What are we even talking about.
Learning curve is more than just having the levels and build and even that is not comparable. Eso does not compare to wow in that regard, not in the slightest. No macros needed, and addons are just nice to have not necessary to be competitive. You can play it with a friggin Xbox controller lol. Stop it.
Which I mean you technically can play wow on one too but there’s not a controller ui like with eso, it’s not designed for it like eso is. It’s far simpler.Edited by BardokRedSnow on December 14, 2025 6:42PMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...0 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭You can find an article or post for just about anything but if people are confused because they have never played wow, ones like these are very common, can look into it yourself. This expresses the point I’m making better:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/why-people-do-not-pvp-in-wow-a-comprehensive-post/2019938
Y’all got it good here while trying to strip a good thing away.Edited by BardokRedSnow on December 14, 2025 6:50PMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...2 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
You mean the ones that had them make Vengeance in the first place?BardokRedSnow wrote: »the statistics the devs will be reading
GH will never grow in population. Vengeance will.
Big fish in a small pond fear the ocean.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP3 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
You mean the ones that had them make Vengeance in the first place?BardokRedSnow wrote: »the statistics the devs will be reading
GH will never grow in population. Vengeance will.
Big fish in a small pond fear the ocean.
Maybe if you keep saying it despite reality, it'll become true.
Vengeance has only shrunk since it's conception.
Zos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...2 -
SneaK✭✭✭✭✭
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No, it’s not. PvE is not something I generally do for fun, it’s not terrible, but I do it because I like to try new things in PvP. Sometimes that means hustling gold, to gold out idiotic weapons that for some reason I think I could make work. Sometimes it means grinding for scripts, to try to find a skill that works other than Charm. Etc.
I do all of this 100% for PvP, because when some weird one off thing does work against the meta, it feels better than anything you can do in this game. Vengeance doesn’t allow this, beating a Magblade with a Stamblade doesn’t give me the same satisfaction as watching a Hybrid Mutt not being able to heal when they have 60% defile on them. It’s really hard right now to even come up with examples of beating meta, cause lack of balance is my number one issue and it hurts EVERY playstyle other than the meta. The focus should be on balance, not changing the scales.
TLDR, imbalance is my enemy, Vengeance is ZOS easy way out from not having to try to fix it.
Also, I don’t even care if they keep Vengeance (they are), I just want normal Cyrodiil to stay AND be balanced.Edited by SneaK on December 15, 2025 4:46AM"IMO"Aldmeri Dominion1 Nightblade - 1 Templar - 7 Hybrid Mutt Abominations2 -
imPDA✭✭✭Veng, meanwhile, isn't even finished yet and it's been more than one year that devs have been working on it.
You can't know for sure how long it took to develop current Vengeance. They are working on DK new skills for 5 (or 6) months already - with this in mind, I would say, Vengeance was planned 2 or 3 years ago
And it is finished, no new features will be added, only balancing between damage/healing will happen in the next year, so only numbers will change, according to dev letter. 0 -
blktauna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »
You mean the ones that had them make Vengeance in the first place?BardokRedSnow wrote: »the statistics the devs will be reading
GH will never grow in population. Vengeance will.
Big fish in a small pond fear the ocean.
Maybe if you keep saying it despite reality, it'll become true.
Vengeance has only shrunk since it's conception.
says who?
PCNA
PCEU0 -
imPDA✭✭✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »Kevin could you please answer the question if possible? Could 1 bar in Vengeance also be representative of 0-1 players?
TLDR; You don't need Kevin. Yes.
There are only 4 texture files, low, medium, high, full for population, so low means from 0 to "some number". It has to be "from the lowest number" (which is zero) to "some value" (unknown, probably 40). Full (locks) is population cap (most likely, but this would require confirmation), so most likely:
1 bar = 0-40,
2 bars = 41-80,
3 bars = 81-120
Lock = 120+queue
They can be something different btw, like
1 = 0-20
2 = 21-60,
3 = 61-110
Lock = 111-120+queue0 -
blktauna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Most popular real PvP games have players start on equal ground like in Vengeance and unlike GreyHost.
Vengeance allows players to play ESO as pure PvP game and brings in PvP players that wouldn’t play GreyHost.
And yet Cyrodiil was hugely popular on release and Vengeance is dead. So what’s your point?
I saw more than one bar population on vengeance the first two days this time around. After that I haven't seen more than one bar on any faction at any time. Meanwhile GH is pop locked every day prime time and earlier on weekends, same as usual.
Even with the added rewards from vengeance most people still prefer GH.
where and what time? On PCEU their primetime its usually 2 bars each and on PCNA its similarish. Do remember 1 bar Vengence !== 1 bar GH in number.PCNA
PCEU0 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭✭
Says who, says the players all in Grey Host and not Vengeance the dead campaign. Which has been dead since after the first test once incentives were gone.BardokRedSnow wrote: »
You mean the ones that had them make Vengeance in the first place?BardokRedSnow wrote: »the statistics the devs will be reading
GH will never grow in population. Vengeance will.
Big fish in a small pond fear the ocean.
Maybe if you keep saying it despite reality, it'll become true.
Vengeance has only shrunk since it's conception.
says who?
You do this every thread. Add something to the conversation as an adult or ignore my posts.Edited by BardokRedSnow on December 15, 2025 6:17AMZos then: Vengeance is just a test bro
Zos now: Do you want Vengeance permanent or permanent...1 -
Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »Kevin could you please answer the question if possible? Could 1 bar in Vengeance also be representative of 0-1 players?
TLDR; You don't need Kevin. Yes.
There are only 4 texture files, low, medium, high, full for population, so low means from 0 to "some number". It has to be "from the lowest number" (which is zero) to "some value" (unknown, probably 40). Full (locks) is population cap (most likely, but this would require confirmation), so most likely:
1 bar = 0-40,
2 bars = 41-80,
3 bars = 81-120
Lock = 120+queue
They can be something different btw, like
1 = 0-20
2 = 21-60,
3 = 61-110
Lock = 111-120+queue
Although this does make logical sense, it's still speculative. It could also be adjusted/calculated by some kind of %modifier. But I think it's a safe assumption that 1 bar is the default since 0 bar doesn't exist.
The population bars are not always accurate, and have some wonky behavior CLIENT side. Numerous times zone or my friends say the bars show x while I look and see slightly different. I can see a pop lock but others will say "Huh? It's showing 3 bars for me." And many times I can que into locked bar with no que time at all. So, it's difficult to really have an accurate reading without Dev kit or whatever they are using to monitor the numbers real-time.1 -
Four_Fingers✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Oh you'll find "things" alright, like the decade old Alcast builds with Shacklebreaker that noobs still bring into GH. Do it yourself, behold the dead internet. That'll take me way off topic though.You can type in "OP PVP BUILD (update X)" and find things within minutes.
Do you yourself still find any meaningful theorycrafting within the GH meta? Felt like it was solved the first week of subclassing PTS last summer and has stayed static since.
At least on Vengeance you can still debate Scout vs Vanguard or DW vs Frost. There would be infinitely more room for innovation on both Ven and GH if they gutted NB/Assassination.
Truth be told Hunding's combined with Shackle Breaker with a Bloodspawn or equal still do just fine for me when I use them.
How you use CP, passives, stats and other buffs are most important as well.
Knowing when and how to pick a fight is also key.1 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »Kevin could you please answer the question if possible? Could 1 bar in Vengeance also be representative of 0-1 players?
TLDR; You don't need Kevin. Yes.
There are only 4 texture files, low, medium, high, full for population, so low means from 0 to "some number". It has to be "from the lowest number" (which is zero) to "some value" (unknown, probably 40). Full (locks) is population cap (most likely, but this would require confirmation), so most likely:
1 bar = 0-40,
2 bars = 41-80,
3 bars = 81-120
Lock = 120+queue
They can be something different btw, like
1 = 0-20
2 = 21-60,
3 = 61-110
Lock = 111-120+queue
Although this does make logical sense, it's still speculative. It could also be adjusted/calculated by some kind of %modifier. But I think it's a safe assumption that 1 bar is the default since 0 bar doesn't exist.
The population bars are not always accurate, and have some wonky behavior CLIENT side. Numerous times zone or my friends say the bars show x while I look and see slightly different. I can see a pop lock but others will say "Huh? It's showing 3 bars for me." And many times I can que into locked bar with no que time at all. So, it's difficult to really have an accurate reading without Dev kit or whatever they are using to monitor the numbers real-time.
They did clarify that the bars indicate an even linear spread of players. I can't for the life of me find the post. Could have been on their website or discord as far as I know. I can't remember but I am pretty sure below is how they did their brackets.
1 bar = ~0-33%
2 bar = ~33-66%
3 bar = ~66-99%
Full = 100% + que
So 1 bar on Veng 900 could be 0-300 players which is equivalent to a full greyhost. Saying vengeance is dead when it at 1 bar could still mean its around 300 players which is pop locked GH. We don't get to see the actual player counts so really people here are just going to complain and sway how they interpret the insignificant data to their liking. The "bars" are so misleading and sway so heavily 0-300 players while there is also the fact that you could be talking about bad faith EU Xbox360 lunchtime numbers while I could be talking about primetime PCNA numbers. Or we can bake in weird terrible UI issues or discrepancies between the Keyboard UI and Controller UI that 99% of people never notice or even addons altering random things like menus.Zos should hire pvp consultants1 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭
Vengeance has not been born yet. GH players are desperately trying to prevent its birth. Why do you think that is? If Vengeance was no threat to GH, these threads wouldn't exist.edward_frigidhands wrote: »[snip]
I'm not sure why Vengeance needs a solid year of "testing" but once live, which PvP mode will the noobs stick with? The accessible one, or the one with ball groups, procs, and instakills? Nobody outside GH forum posters is gonna put up with that crap just to tinker with bad sets.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 15, 2025 7:23PMPC/NA || Cyro/BGs || solo/smallscale || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP4 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭✭✭
✭What sucks for us is that vengeance probably could have been loads better. Dare I say the "eso classic" people want.
In the ideal scenario they would have done the vengeance pve/pvp split skills and item code. Done the "alpha" test with the basic rules in the first test. Then they should have immediately worked on making vengeance closer to a middle ground game with all the core game elements people want. Like consumables, basic stat sets, enchants, etc.
What probably happened was that the corporate side of things demanded constant engineering answers and number reports to justify spending money on PvP. Thus we got stuck doing the tests as they developed vengeance little by little.Zos should hire pvp consultants2 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭
Vengeance has not been born yet.edward_frigidhands wrote: »[snip]
At present it is looking like the birth date may be facing perpetual postponement.
I think they should focus on the ideas that work. What works for ESO? What makes ESO great? Why is it that people login to play this game despite all of the poor decision making that has taken place since U35?
The ability to consistently control the way you design and setup your character. The way it traditionally has been all of these years.
Vengeance is a sharp contrast of that. That is why the campaign is empty when alternatives are up, and almost empty when there have been no alternatives active.
People do not want what this solution offers.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 15, 2025 7:23PM1 -
MorallyBipolar✭✭✭✭Seeing how essentially everyone went back to GH as soon as it became available and skipped vengeance all together there is an undeniable answer to the OP now.
No. Vengeance is not viable. People won't play it. We saw that very clearly when they had a choice. They chose not to play vengeance, and when GH came back, so did the players.Edited by MorallyBipolar on December 15, 2025 4:02PM1 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭
Vengeance has not been born yet. GH players are desperately trying to prevent its birth. Why do you think that is? If Vengeance was no threat to GH, these threads wouldn't exist.edward_frigidhands wrote: »[snip]
I'm not sure why Vengeance needs a solid year of "testing" but once live, which PvP mode will the noobs stick with? The accessible one, or the one with ball groups, procs, and instakills? Nobody outside GH forum posters is gonna put up with that crap just to tinker with bad sets.
Vengeance was born and forgotten the second GH was allowed to run along side it. You said it will continue to grow in population but it has only gone down since it's inception. No company would ever look at a graph of a vastly declining population and say it has yet to take off.
You also stated GH won't grow but it hits pop cap every single day. If the devs increased the limit it would even further outshine vengeance but they allocate their resources to come up with a replacement for GH rather than just improving it. Obviously the lag is the issue and that's why they don't want even more players going to GH, but ques can hit over 100 people on some nights while vengeance can't break a 1 bar population for more than 20 minutes.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 15, 2025 7:24PM1 -
Lord_Hev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »What sucks for us is that vengeance probably could have been loads better. Dare I say the "eso classic" people want.
In the ideal scenario they would have done the vengeance pve/pvp split skills and item code. Done the "alpha" test with the basic rules in the first test. Then they should have immediately worked on making vengeance closer to a middle ground game with all the core game elements people want. Like consumables, basic stat sets, enchants, etc.
What probably happened was that the corporate side of things demanded constant engineering answers and number reports to justify spending money on PvP. Thus we got stuck doing the tests as they developed vengeance little by little.
Very much this. They've demonstrated the technical format of being able to literally give us a replica 1.5 server in the form of a PvP campaign. If it had all the passives to make the classes feel more distinct and gave dynamic ult gen, Vengeance would be vastly superior lol.2 -
Artisian0001✭✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »What sucks for us is that vengeance probably could have been loads better. Dare I say the "eso classic" people want.
In the ideal scenario they would have done the vengeance pve/pvp split skills and item code. Done the "alpha" test with the basic rules in the first test. Then they should have immediately worked on making vengeance closer to a middle ground game with all the core game elements people want. Like consumables, basic stat sets, enchants, etc.
What probably happened was that the corporate side of things demanded constant engineering answers and number reports to justify spending money on PvP. Thus we got stuck doing the tests as they developed vengeance little by little.
Very much this. They've demonstrated the technical format of being able to literally give us a replica 1.5 server in the form of a PvP campaign. If it had all the passives to make the classes feel more distinct and gave dynamic ult gen, Vengeance would be vastly superior lol.
People said the same thing about wanting no proc but that camp was dead immediately. People who ask for the "glory days" of ESO to come back again just want a scenario where players are bad at PvP when the game wasn't as old and knowledge wasn't as vast. The average player has improved to a point where they don't just light attack and sit in a stun for 5 seconds until they die (some still do but this isn't the average.) Realistically there were a lot of broken aspects of the game back in those days, the game is at a more balanced point than it was the vast majority of patches, regardless of what people want to complain about. The glory days of beating on fodder players are gone, this happens with every game as it ages.1