We need a dungeon tutorial and minimum requirements for roles

Ardriel · December 7

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

No matter how many tutorials are provided in the game, as long as players are unwilling to face the facts and learn, those fake characters will always exist.

Today I participated in a vOC and we failed at the first boss. Looking at the logs, over half of the DPS had a lot of healing spells in their builds and only used heavy attacks. Therefore, the highest and lowest DPS differed by a factor of three, which led to an ever-increasing number of adds that eventually overwhelmed the group. When someone raised the issue, those with excessive healing spells and only used heavy attacks loudly proclaimed that the logs were meaningless and that they had helped with healing, etc.

Demanding adequate damage from DPS is not elitism; it's like not expecting someone without a medical degree and license to perform heart surgery. If you can't even meet the basic requirements, how can you expect people to believe you can accomplish anything?

People can lack experience with the mechanics, but they cannot lack adequate gear, damage/healing, and attitude. The problem we face now is those fake characters—players who lack sufficient damage, tanking ability, and healing output, arrogantly believing "their build is fine," and refusing to listen to any advice that can help them improve.

I think establishing in-game character certification might be a good solution. Previously, the ability to complete a VMA without taking damage was used as a standard of competence, but VMA are too easy for the latest Dungeons and Trials, and they don't effectively test a healer's or tank's skill level. A mini-game simulating the Dungeons or Trials environment, testing how much damage or healing you can deal within a time limit, or whether you can tank a boss for a certain period, would not only help newcomers adapt to the realities of Dungeons and Trials but also help leaders screen qualified members.

You're absolutely right. And that's why my suggestion wasn't just a short tutorial, but a proper little test that you have to complete with the respective role. In WoW, for example, there is or was something like that.
Players should master the necessary skills for their role. For damage dealers, there should be a minimum dps check.

There's almost nothing I haven't experienced in the dungeon finder. Even tanks who didn't know what taunt is.
Of course, it would also be important to inform players about gear and builds. Where does the game explain the important of traits and certain skills? You have to find out for yourself using the internet looking for ESO guides.
So often, the wrong skills are used, or there are hardly any debuffs, for example, no crusher on the backbar weapon, etc. I see it again and again that DPS put a lot of points into health or play with a 1-hand + shield. You can tell from their playing style that they are not experienced players who are just quickly doing a random with their PVP character. They simply don't know which builds are good for doing decent damage.

That's why I think a special tutorial for group content, i.e. vet dungeons, would be useful. During the tutorial, players should learn the most important basics. That would save a lot of players a lot of frustration.

Of course, there will always be those who refuse to learn. As for players who are resistant to advice, there's really nothing you can do. They don't want to deal with builds and claim that dps and numbers aren’t important. But of course they want to do vet content, preferably with hard mode. The only thing that helps is to kick them.

Of course, you can't take all the effort away from the players and spoon-feed them. Everyone has to engage with the game and gain their own experience, communicate with other players. After all, it is an online multiplayer game.
A tutorial should only teach the most important things. A tutorial which only teaches blocking, interrupting, and heavy attacks is not enough though.

Sailor_Palutena · December 7

The healer should have a healing skill plus Staff.

The tank should have a shield or frost Staff and have AT LEAST a taunt skill which should cost a single skill point.

I dislike fakes in both Normal and Vet dungeons. I'm a main healer. If I'm there and the mobs or boss start to follow me around, I quit the group. For some reason healing is the second highest treat besides taunt.

Ezhh · December 7

nb_rich wrote: »

no one should be allowed to que up as a tank if they do not have a sword and shield or ice staff equipped

I'm sorry but why? If I have a taunt, can survive the boss, hold it in place, chain in adds, even buff the group, what does it matter if I have a shield or an ice staff? Yes, your average player might be better off with these builds, but that doesn't mean you can't do the job right without them.

nb_rich wrote: »

and for healers they should not be able to que up without a healing staff equipped.

Again, why? There are so many heals that do not require a resto staff. There are so many cases where carrying one is complete overkill. I say this as someone who has healed some of the hardest content in the game - you do not need a resto staff on a healer in many DLC dungeons. Do I run one anyway? Most of the time yes. But sometimes it's refreshing to do something else, and if I can meet the requirements for my role, why should I be blocked from joining?

nb_rich wrote: »

With this we shouldn’t be allowed to switch weapons in the middle of a dungeon

So no more having fun creating different builds that work well for different parts of the dungeon?

Can we please not aim to punish people who can play the game well and who dare step a tiny bit outside these narrow definitions of what some people think roles should be? I won't claim there isn't an issue, because there is, but this isn't a good way to solve it.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I think establishing in-game character certification might be a good solution.

I like this idea, but I'm not sure what the best way to do it would be. If it could be done well, it would make way more sense than setting limits on what people can equip.

Soarora · December 7

Agreed on not requiring certain weapons. I have a destro/destro healer-dps hybrid that does the job… and when he doesn’t do the job then I have a restro in my inventory. DPS can also use ice staff and s&b.

I think an exam would work well. Just a test you have to do every year or so to use the queue, with very basic things for normal (low dps check, tanks taunt, etc), more complex stuff for vet (cast abilities while moving, medium dps check, block boss heavies, etc), and maybe an optional third one for working on skills (like line of sighting/outranging, permablocking, etc). Kind of like a driver’s license.

Vaqual · December 7

Suggestions here ask for:

-Boring tutorials which will either be skipped by the people who need them (if optional) or replayed on every toon by the people who don't (if mandatory)
-Circumventable qualification checks
-Giving up player freedom
-Confronting weak players with a reality check + lockout

All because the randoms in a group weren't as people would have liked them to be. Aren't those solutions worse than a kick or custom grouping?

Necrotech_Master · December 7

Ardriel wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

normal difficulty IS the dungeon tutorial lol

if people dont understand roles or mechanics, it means people arent paying attention or learning anything while in normal difficulty

i know this problem itself is exacerbated by experienced players doing normal dungeons on near or meta dps builds that burn everything in normal super fast, and a lot of mechanics in normal are almost ignorable because 1-shots on vet are only about 50-80% dmg on normal and thus most ignore it

part of the problem with mechanics could be resolved by making 1 shots 1 shots on normal, this would force people to learn them without the heavily increased dmg from every other mechanic and more signify their importance

fake roles are typically a problem on normal because experienced players generally dont need help in the dungeon and just want it to get done as quick as possible, this has branching consequences of less experienced players not learning anything and then being woefully underprepared when attempting to do veteran difficulty

Normal dungeons can't be a tutorial because they are too easy. Players rush through while ignoring any mechanics. The only thing new players learn is "dungeons are super easy, you don't need to care about mechanics, I can queue as tank"
But on the other hand raising the difficulty of normal dungeons would scare many cashual players away from group content. There would be an outcry of protest.

Last'One wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

normal difficulty IS the dungeon tutorial lol

if people dont understand roles or mechanics, it means people arent paying attention or learning anything while in normal difficulty

..."

It’s!? How? Why?
...

they are in fact meant to be a tutorial

if people are burning through them so fast, thats because mostly of power creep and knowledgeable players

when a new dungeon comes out, i intentionally solo the dungeon on normal on a tanky character with 12-15k dps and a companion so i can get a rough idea of what mechanics i need to watch out for

the fact that you need to have basically a group dps of under 20k to even really see mechanics in normal dungeons is kind of a problem, as the only way you will encounter that is in a group of 4 fully inexperienced players doing their first dungeon

that and with mechanics doing significantly less, its still sometimes hard to tell what is going to be a problem on vet

i dont know the best solution to this problem, i agree that making the normal dungeons more difficult will put people off from doing them, but the only way to see mechanics in normal at all really is to have a very low dps group

Soarora wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

normal difficulty IS the dungeon tutorial lol

if people dont understand roles or mechanics, it means people arent paying attention or learning anything while in normal difficulty

i know this problem itself is exacerbated by experienced players doing normal dungeons on near or meta dps builds that burn everything in normal super fast, and a lot of mechanics in normal are almost ignorable because 1-shots on vet are only about 50-80% dmg on normal and thus most ignore it

part of the problem with mechanics could be resolved by making 1 shots 1 shots on normal, this would force people to learn them without the heavily increased dmg from every other mechanic and more signify their importance

fake roles are typically a problem on normal because experienced players generally dont need help in the dungeon and just want it to get done as quick as possible, this has branching consequences of less experienced players not learning anything and then being woefully underprepared when attempting to do veteran difficulty

I did normal unhallowed grave yesterday and I was shocked that— on the lich boss in execute— the consequence for not hiding behind the pillar was… you get feared. That’s all. No noticeable DoT to teach you to not just eat the waves. So everyone else just stayed out there and I was the only one hiding behind a pillar…

that boss still does apply a dot with the fear, but with current levels of healing and on normal, its basically negligible

i personally still hide on normal because the fear is just annoying and can kill it faster if i dont have to cc break lol

SwordOfSagas · December 8

Fake tanks and healers are bad but I just queued for a random vet on my healer and the two dd's in the first dungeon took 10 minutes killing 7 adds. The tank left so did I, so I queued again and got a vet dlc dungeon and exactly the same thing happened, one of the dd's was literally just spamming light attacks with daggers and the other was spamming beam with no crux...

alpha_synuclein · December 8

In a game like ESO any kind of gear based gating will not be viable. What we need is a tutorial that focuses on the basics of each role, that player needs to pass to be able to queue on said role for a vet dungeon or join a vet trial in group finder.

For example:

Tank: you need to position and control main boss and a bunch of adds for 5 minutes. You need to use taunt, some form of pull/crowd control skill and debuff with Major Breach. If you die, loose taunt on main boss or an add attacks your NPC team member more than 2 times, you fail and start over. To make sure that the decent resistances and defences are present, the strength of the boss should be about vet DLC of mid difficulty (let's say Lady Thorn).

Healer: you need to keep your NPC teammates alive (while they stand in red) and produce at least 50k raw HPS. You need to have at least one Major damage buff (Courage, Slayer, Force, etc.) and maintain it with min 50% uptime. You need to provide at least one synergy on cooldown. If you or one of your teammats dies or your HPS drops, you fail and start over.

DD: you need to produce at least 40k DPS in total, your build needs to include AoE damage skills. You need to be able to avoid standing in AoE and perform kite mechanic while doing damage. You need to be able to interrupt an add next to you when it's channeling. You need to res your dead NPC team member. If you die, don't produce sufficient damage, fail to res or interrupt (within a timeframe) you fail and start over. If you spend more than 25% of your casts on self-healing/shields, you fail and start over.

And yes, for basegame dungeons this will be an overkill, but the purpose is to show what roles in group content are about more than prepare for every specific situation.

Ardriel · December 8

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

In a game like ESO any kind of gear based gating will not be viable. What we need is a tutorial that focuses on the basics of each role, that player needs to pass to be able to queue on said role for a vet dungeon or join a vet trial in group finder.

For example:

Healer: you need to keep your NPC teammates alive (while they stand in red) and produce at least 50k raw HPS. You need to have at least one Major damage buff (Courage, Slayer, Force, etc.) and maintain it with min 50% uptime. You need to provide at least one synergy on cooldown. If you or one of your teammats dies or your HPS drops, you fail and start over.

That would send the wrong message to the DPS. The damage dealer's job should also be to avoid damage and not stubbornly stand in red areas. For the simulation, there would simply have to be constant damage for all group members that needs to be healed but cannot be avoided.

Ardriel · December 8

SwordOfSagas wrote: »

Fake tanks and healers are bad but I just queued for a random vet on my healer and the two dd's in the first dungeon took 10 minutes killing 7 adds. The tank left so did I, so I queued again and got a vet dlc dungeon and exactly the same thing happened, one of the dd's was literally just spamming light attacks with daggers and the other was spamming beam with no crux...

I think everyone will agree that such players are not ready for veteran dungeons. That's why it would be important to include a dps check in the tutorial or dungeon qualification. Once in a trash mob, and another time in a boss fight scenario.
If you fail, however, the tutorial should also give you useful tips on how to improve your damage output.

Major_Mangle · December 8

SwordOfSagas wrote: »

Fake tanks and healers are bad but I just queued for a random vet on my healer and the two dd's in the first dungeon took 10 minutes killing 7 adds. The tank left so did I, so I queued again and got a vet dlc dungeon and exactly the same thing happened, one of the dd's was literally just spamming light attacks with daggers and the other was spamming beam with no crux...

Fake dds (yes they exists)

frogthroat · December 8

It could be a tutorial dungeon where you are given a loadout for each role. You pick up a quest and it takes you to three scenarios. The mechanic for this is already programmed in with Vengeance. No set bonuses, pre-made skill loadouts.

1. A team of NPCs are missing a tank, you will fill in. Need to equip 5 heavy armour, taunt one boss and block a few hits. If you don't have heavy pieces, there's 5 body pieces in the starting area, with a sword and board. No set bonuses anyway, so only the armor rating matters.
2. Second scenario, healer is missing so you fill in. 5 light pieces in the starting area, and a resto staff. Need to place an AOE ground HOT, a sticky HOT and a burst heal.
3. And in the last scenario DD is missing. 5 medium pieces and a 2h axe (because for some reason ZOS loves 2h axe as a tutorial weapon) and you need to place a DOT and do some direct damage.

After those scnearios the quest giver praises you to be the best recruit he has seen and gives you some gold and xp.

Could be tied to guilds, like Fighters Guild or Undaunted. Or even divided between the guilds. Get a tank tutorial from the Undaunted, healer tutorial from Mages Guild and a DD tutorial from Fighters Guild.

Ardriel · December 8

frogthroat wrote: »

It could be a tutorial dungeon where you are given a loadout for each role. You pick up a quest and it takes you to three scenarios. The mechanic for this is already programmed in with Vengeance. No set bonuses, pre-made skill loadouts.

1. A team of NPCs are missing a tank, you will fill in. Need to equip 5 heavy armour, taunt one boss and block a few hits. If you don't have heavy pieces, there's 5 body pieces in the starting area, with a sword and board. No set bonuses anyway, so only the armor rating matters.
2. Second scenario, healer is missing so you fill in. 5 light pieces in the starting area, and a resto staff. Need to place an AOE ground HOT, a sticky HOT and a burst heal.
3. And in the last scenario DD is missing. 5 medium pieces and a 2h axe (because for some reason ZOS loves 2h axe as a tutorial weapon) and you need to place a DOT and do some direct damage.

After those scnearios the quest giver praises you to be the best recruit he has seen and gives you some gold and xp.

Could be tied to guilds, like Fighters Guild or Undaunted. Or even divided between the guilds. Get a tank tutorial from the Undaunted, healer tutorial from Mages Guild and a DD tutorial from Fighters Guild.

I like this idea

alpha_synuclein · December 8

Ardriel wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

In a game like ESO any kind of gear based gating will not be viable. What we need is a tutorial that focuses on the basics of each role, that player needs to pass to be able to queue on said role for a vet dungeon or join a vet trial in group finder.

For example:

Healer: you need to keep your NPC teammates alive (while they stand in red) and produce at least 50k raw HPS. You need to have at least one Major damage buff (Courage, Slayer, Force, etc.) and maintain it with min 50% uptime. You need to provide at least one synergy on cooldown. If you or one of your teammats dies or your HPS drops, you fail and start over.

That would send the wrong message to the DPS. The damage dealer's job should also be to avoid damage and not stubbornly stand in red areas. For the simulation, there would simply have to be constant damage for all group members that needs to be healed but cannot be avoided.

Good point.

frogthroat · December 9

Ardriel wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

In a game like ESO any kind of gear based gating will not be viable. What we need is a tutorial that focuses on the basics of each role, that player needs to pass to be able to queue on said role for a vet dungeon or join a vet trial in group finder.

For example:

Healer: you need to keep your NPC teammates alive (while they stand in red) and produce at least 50k raw HPS. You need to have at least one Major damage buff (Courage, Slayer, Force, etc.) and maintain it with min 50% uptime. You need to provide at least one synergy on cooldown. If you or one of your teammats dies or your HPS drops, you fail and start over.

That would send the wrong message to the DPS. The damage dealer's job should also be to avoid damage and not stubbornly stand in red areas. For the simulation, there would simply have to be constant damage for all group members that needs to be healed but cannot be avoided.

Yes, exactly. However... I think there are some magical properties in different weapons.

When you equip a shield, you will lose all sense of direction. After the boss is dead and you have entrance and exit, a tank will choose entrance.

When you equip a restoration staff, you will no longer see any players outside of the heal area.

When you equip dual daggers, all red areas are drawing you closer like moths to a flame.

MorganaLaVey · December 9

Vaqual wrote: »

Suggestions here ask for:

-Boring tutorials which will either be skipped by the people who need them (if optional) or replayed on every toon by the people who don't (if mandatory)
-Circumventable qualification checks
-Giving up player freedom
-Confronting weak players with a reality check + lockout

All because the randoms in a group weren't as people would have liked them to be. Aren't those solutions worse than a kick or custom grouping?

"custom groups" just lie to you and kick does not work with 2 or more fakes in the group.
Many people quit the game over this. Whats the point in a game you cant even play without jumping through hoops and loops ? It's easier to play something else.

I dont expect anything to be done about it tho scince this was always a problem and nothing has been done so far.

Soarora · December 9

frogthroat wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

In a game like ESO any kind of gear based gating will not be viable. What we need is a tutorial that focuses on the basics of each role, that player needs to pass to be able to queue on said role for a vet dungeon or join a vet trial in group finder.

For example:

Healer: you need to keep your NPC teammates alive (while they stand in red) and produce at least 50k raw HPS. You need to have at least one Major damage buff (Courage, Slayer, Force, etc.) and maintain it with min 50% uptime. You need to provide at least one synergy on cooldown. If you or one of your teammats dies or your HPS drops, you fail and start over.

That would send the wrong message to the DPS. The damage dealer's job should also be to avoid damage and not stubbornly stand in red areas. For the simulation, there would simply have to be constant damage for all group members that needs to be healed but cannot be avoided.

Yes, exactly. However... I think there are some magical properties in different weapons.

When you equip a shield, you will lose all sense of direction. After the boss is dead and you have entrance and exit, a tank will choose entrance.

When you equip a restoration staff, you will no longer see any players outside of the heal area.

When you equip dual daggers, all red areas are drawing you closer like moths to a flame.

I’m feeling called out as a tank main with a shoddy sense of direction 😂!

Daoin · December 10

how about stop pressuring people into joining your playstyle, especially new players ? in the end you need them more than they need you anyway, so who cares if your run never made it, can happen to the best of us unless your a one %er, then when it does all you do is complain like you were meant for special things and its everyone elses fault such a small thing and some kind of crime in eso, is just a game and sometimes expecting the 'game over' is what can make it more fun

Verbum_Rithimus · December 10

Tauntless tank or no-buff healer
Or severely useless damage dealer.
With random groups you take your chances
With resultant random circumstances.

It's player made and player mended:
Teach, kick or leave if offended.
Better still pre-form groups;
No need to jump through testing hoops.

Necrotech_Master · December 10

Daoin wrote: »

how about stop pressuring people into joining your playstyle, especially new players ? in the end you need them more than they need you anyway, so who cares if your run never made it, can happen to the best of us unless your a one %er, then when it does all you do is complain like you were meant for special things and its everyone elses fault such a small thing and some kind of crime in eso, is just a game and sometimes expecting the 'game over' is what can make it more fun

this, really

not all teams NEED say 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps

some experienced groups run with 1 tank and 3 dps just fine even on most dlc dungeons outside of hard modes

heck i typically test myself soloing some non dlc vet HM dungeons on a dps with a tank companion just because i can lol

Finedaible · December 10

Or how about ZoS does the obvious and finally let players see enemy resistances so that new players know what to build towards? Or at the very least provide some visual effect when you have full penetration would be a great start.

So much crucial combat information in the game is intentionally left out by design and it is the dumbest decision I have ever seen. Don't even get me started on the several skills which have exceptions to their status chance, so something like the charged trait makes absolutely no contextual sense to anyone who doesn't know the various shenanigans going on behind the scenes...

Ardriel · December 10

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

how about stop pressuring people into joining your playstyle, especially new players ? in the end you need them more than they need you anyway, so who cares if your run never made it, can happen to the best of us unless your a one %er, then when it does all you do is complain like you were meant for special things and its everyone elses fault such a small thing and some kind of crime in eso, is just a game and sometimes expecting the 'game over' is what can make it more fun

this, really

not all teams NEED say 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps

some experienced groups run with 1 tank and 3 dps just fine even on most dlc dungeons outside of hard modes

heck i typically test myself soloing some non dlc vet HM dungeons on a dps with a tank companion just because i can lol

It's great if you're such a good player that you can do vet hm solo, but that's definitely not the case for the average ESO player. The standard should be a conventional group with all roles, not 3 dd or 4 dd runs. At least for vet dungeons.

Of course, there are players who don't need a healer for vet DLC either. But that's not the case for the average player. It's not fair to expect average players to form their own group and avoid random vet dungeons.
These players should not be pressured into a particular style of play (speed, no healer, no tank) not the other way around.

I know new players who turned their backs on ESO because, among other things, they've had very frustrating experiences in the Dungeon Finder.
At the beginning, they can't keep up with the others yet (gear, experience, skill points for subclassing).
However, the way the game is currently played in the Dungeon Finder, teaches them how to do it when you're really good, not how you should actually do it with a proper group.
So it's no surprise that they don't learn the basics and mechanics.
Once they're in the vet DLC and wiped a few times because they have no idea about the mechanics, they often get kicked and don't even know why. That's frustrating.

frogthroat · December 10

I think that while the two topics in this thread are related, they are still vastly different topics.
1. Need for a dungeon tutorial.
2. Minimum requirements for dungeon groups.

For the first part, a tutorial, that would be a great idea. For me this is my first MMO. I don't usually play any kind of online games. Strictly a single player and I came to ESO via TES universe. When I started I had no idea what is group content, little alone what the different roles mean. Some sort of tutorial, maybe in form of a quest or something, would have been very helpful. I had the trouble of being kicked out of groups since I had no idea what I was even supposed to do.

But the second part, minimum requirements, that would go against the "play as you want" motto. It is good to know the roles, but I don't think they should be enforced by the game. The roles are more of a serving suggestion than a hard requirement. 7 key pledges (formerly 5 key) are much faster with 1t 3dd, or even 4dd if the DLC pledge is nothing insane. With an experienced group a healer would feel frustration, especially in the base game dungeons where you don't need a healer even in HM. There's of course different level players and the average player might need a 1t 1h 2dd composition, but that doesn't mean the more experienced players must play like that even when they have made a group beforehand.

Helping new players is always good, but forcing -- either new players or experienced players -- to play in a certain way is not.

But I do have an idea for the minimum requirements. Even if the game would not check any of your gear or skills, a simple "ignore group composition" checkbox in the dungeon finder would solve many issues. Those who need a traditional 1t 1h 2dd group can leave it as is, and those more experienced players who do not care can check that box and then the game will group you with either in a group where your role matches, or if that is not available just form a group with the first 3 other players who have checked that box. That was DDs don't need to queue as fake tanks.

Ardriel · December 10

frogthroat wrote: »

I think that while the two topics in this thread are related, they are still vastly different topics.
1. Need for a dungeon tutorial.
2. Minimum requirements for dungeon groups.

For the first part, a tutorial, that would be a great idea. For me this is my first MMO. I don't usually play any kind of online games. Strictly a single player and I came to ESO via TES universe. When I started I had no idea what is group content, little alone what the different roles mean. Some sort of tutorial, maybe in form of a quest or something, would have been very helpful. I had the trouble of being kicked out of groups since I had no idea what I was even supposed to do.

But the second part, minimum requirements, that would go against the "play as you want" motto. It is good to know the roles, but I don't think they should be enforced by the game. The roles are more of a serving suggestion than a hard requirement. 7 key pledges (formerly 5 key) are much faster with 1t 3dd, or even 4dd if the DLC pledge is nothing insane. With an experienced group a healer would feel frustration, especially in the base game dungeons where you don't need a healer even in HM. There's of course different level players and the average player might need a 1t 1h 2dd composition, but that doesn't mean the more experienced players must play like that even when they have made a group beforehand.

Helping new players is always good, but forcing -- either new players or experienced players -- to play in a certain way is not.

But I do have an idea for the minimum requirements. Even if the game would not check any of your gear or skills, a simple "ignore group composition" checkbox in the dungeon finder would solve many issues. Those who need a traditional 1t 1h 2dd group can leave it as is, and those more experienced players who do not care can check that box and then the game will group you with either in a group where your role matches, or if that is not available just form a group with the first 3 other players who have checked that box. That was DDs don't need to queue as fake tanks.

I have to agree with you there. Of course, you don't need a healer in dungeons like vFG1, actually you don’t need a tank either. But there are also non-DLC dungeons, such as Selene Vet, where a tank is useful. At the last boss. Especially when there's aggro ping pong, you have to be careful that the bear doesn't 1-shot you. If the fake tank has taunt and does their job well, they won't die and everyone can focus on the damage. But I keep seeing these heroes dying all the time or not taunting at all, or both. Or they leave the dungeon right at the beginning. Then you can wait forever for a new tank to come along, and if you're unlucky, it'll be another faker. I'm sure, I’m not the only player who has been annoyed by this many times.

I think that people who want to play 3 or 4 dps runs should use a pre-made group. At least that's what I do. You can always use the Group Finder to search for like-minded players and then sign up via the Dungeon Finder. That way, no one is forced into anything.
I've seen many times that players left the group after it became clear that a faker was tanking.
Of course, you can kick the fake tank, but then you have to wait again. If no one shows up after a few minutes, the group disbands. I experience this again and again.
That’s why I think that especially fake tanking in vet dungeons is not very popular.

And you're right, I should have split up the topic.

As for your idea with the “ignore group composition” checkbox, I think that's really great! That would be a good compromise.

KalevaLaine · December 10

I replied before, but this goes on and on here.

I still think that any kind of check is needed. I play main heal, but in normal dungeons (and easy vets) I switch on DPS setup (on my Templar for example) with Breath of Life and Vigor.

I rund False God an Deadly and still outparse the most DPS there. That's kinda sad.

Daoin · December 10

simply not logging on seems to be the most popular route to take if not enjoying the groups these days, think i am down to around 30 minutes log in time per week now at most, somehow though eso seems to keep the same 6000 yes team online 24 hours a day even when 40 thousand and spare change are saying no

frogthroat · December 10

Ardriel wrote: »

If the fake tank has taunt and does their job well, they won't die and everyone can focus on the damage.

Yeah, fake fake tanks have ruined it for us fake-but-not-really tanks.

I have a couple of "tank" builds I am fully capable of using for most vet content. But because of this fake tank epidemic, many times people leave when they see a tank with 27k health and dual wield. Doesn't matter that I taunt, debuff and most importantly don't die. All while doing pretty ok dps.

Ardriel wrote: »

Or they leave the dungeon right at the beginning.

When you get some dungeons as your random dungeon that happens more often than not. Like, how many times have you managed to have a full group in Maarselok when you queue to random dungeon alone? And surprisingly often in others, like GD or BS. Tank is the first to go when you load in.

Ardriel wrote: »

I've seen many times that players left the group after it became clear that a faker was tanking.
Of course, you can kick the fake tank, but then you have to wait again. If no one shows up after a few minutes, the group disbands. I experience this again and again.
That’s why I think that especially fake tanking in vet dungeons is not very popular.

Yeah, this would be easier if there would be the "ignore group composition" checkbox. And that the finder would prioritise those groups where someone has the checkbox unchecked, so that a real tank would go first to a group that actually wants a tank.

In such case you could mercilessly kick fake tanks, because you would still be high in the queue when a real tank starts queuing.

I would probably use the checkbox pretty often, so I could get through the queue as a dd much faster. And those who really want the 1t 1h 2dd composition would have fewer fakers messing up their run. Win-win.

Quite unrelated, but as a healer main I do queue as a healer for RND to get transmutes and the extra XP. But boy do I feel useless especially if it's a base game dungeon. No one needs healing and I can't do dps -- and in normal nothing really needs debuffing either. Basically, I always feel like I am getting a carry when I queue as a healer for a healer role in RND. In vet I do get to do actual healing.

frogthroat · December 10

KalevaLaine wrote: »

I still think that any kind of check is needed. I play main heal, but in normal dungeons (and easy vets) I switch on DPS setup (on my Templar for example) with Breath of Life and Vigor.

That's a good idea. I have a couple of dps-tank builds, but I should do dps-healer builds for my healer toons.

alpha_synuclein · December 10

frogthroat wrote: »

For the first part, a tutorial, that would be a great idea. For me this is my first MMO. I don't usually play any kind of online games. Strictly a single player and I came to ESO via TES universe. When I started I had no idea what is group content, little alone what the different roles mean. Some sort of tutorial, maybe in form of a quest or something, would have been very helpful. I had the trouble of being kicked out of groups since I had no idea what I was even supposed to do.

I was the same. And that's exactly why I believe some sort of tutorial is needed. Not to force players into specific builds, but to show what roles are about and what player priorities should be when they queue for a certain role in vet content. Ultimately what players will do with that knowledge is their choice, but game should provide the basics.

Heronisan · December 10

A tutorial for roles is needed, and a dps check for dd's in particular.

One of the main reasons theres barely any tanks in v randoms is because the dd's u get are often so bad its unbelivable, so all the good tanks either play with guilds/friends then risk getting people who cant even read skill descriptions ( im looking at you, dd who uses templar beam when boss is at 100% and heavy attacks when boss is at 30%, or the dd spamming arcanist beam no crux on a single target boss, when he was heavy attacking trash packs the entire dungeon, or the oakensoul HA user, doing nothing but holding down heavy attack, with sorc barrier skill and healing bird equipped doing 20k dps, who also rushes ahead of the tank and pulls bosses and trash packs before the group has caught up)

Its really bad lately on console xbox eu, after subclassing they are comming into dlc vet dungeons with 2 tank skill lines and 1 dps skill line because its a thematic build, dealing 10k dps and spamming frozen gate. Some of these dungeons have actual dps checks, u just know after the first trash pack u will never get past.

[snip]

If dd's can start to learn to play the game properly for vet dungeons, more tanks might take the chance queing solo.

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