We need a dungeon tutorial and minimum requirements for roles

ZhuJiuyin

Furthermore, there's something else I think everyone's overlooked: the game's player base is definitely not what it used to be. I believe many have experienced friends leaving or guilds disbanding. If random dungeons are filled with fake characters, it will only frustrate newcomers who haven't yet built relationships.

I remember when I first started playing, there was no official Chinese language support, and I had to figure everything out on my own. When I built a Sorc healer based on guides and participated in the March of Sacrifices, it was incredibly frustrating. The tank kept dying, and the fights were incredibly long. I even thought it was a skill issue and questioned whether I was just not suited for the game. But after meeting other players and teaming up with them, my setup remained the same, but the dungeon went very smoothly, and I even got the "undying" achievement.

If we allow unqualified players to dominate Veteran Random Dungeons, it will further discourage newcomers, and the game's player base is already dwindling... Of course, this is partly the responsibility of the developers. Even if they emphasize playing however they want, they should still teach players how to build a decent (at least capable of clearing Veteran Dungeons) build and balance the skill lines across different classes.

Ardriel

AzuraFan wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

If you don't queue for vet dlc, where is the problem? I'm talking about VET dungeons. Please read a little more carefully before answering

There are vet basegame dungeons, I believe. You'd do well to heed your own advice.

Also, as I've explained, I've run into problems with pugs doing normal dungeons. Should we start demanding certifications for them, too? Or is a player's time more important when doing a vet dungeon than when doing a normal dungeon? (spoiler alert: the answer is no)

Anyway, we'll agree to disagree on certification or requirements. We're not going to change each other's minds.

(I'm totally on board for better tutorials.)

I don't understand why some players have an aversion to tests or qualifications. For some things, you're just not ready without certain requirements. For example, as a first-year medical student, you won't be able to perform heart surgery. Right?
Of course, you can't compare an online game to something so serious, but it's the principle that counts.

Why do you have such a problem with it? If you say you don't want to do vet DLCs anyway? Are you afraid the game considers you not good enough for veteran dungeons? But isn't it better if a little private test in the game tells you that before your fellow players do it by kicking you out of the group?

Or is there perhaps a vague hope that a good group will carry you through the vet DLC dungeon, every time when you queue for random vet? Maybe even with hard mode? If so, I’d find it a very unfair attitude towards your fellow players.

Personally, I started playing vet DLC dungeons when I was ready for them. I gained enough experience in vet non-DLCs, played DLC dungeons on normal mode first, and watched guides for each dungeon. I improved my gear, my builds, my skills. I did parses on dummies to improve my dps.
I want to do my best because I don't want to be unfair to my fellow players and waste their time. I don’t expect them to carry me through content.

As for players who also have problems in normal dungeons, that's what the Dungeon Tutorial would be for. Even if they don't pass the following test right away, they would still learn something in the process. And perhaps develop the ambition to improve.

AzuraFan

Ardriel wrote: »

Why do you have such a problem with it? If you say you don't want to do vet DLCs anyway? Are you afraid the game considers you not good enough for veteran dungeons?

That makes no sense. I already know I'm not good enough, as I've stated. That's why I don't do vet DLC dungeons. So I'm not quaking in my boots afraid that the game will declare me not good enough. And I've already explained why I don't like the idea. You can read my previous posts for that.

(You're also forgetting about basegame vet dungeons. Again.)

Or is there perhaps a vague hope that a good group will carry you through the vet DLC dungeon, every time when you queue for random vet? Maybe even with hard mode? If so, I’d find it a very unfair attitude towards your fellow players.

That makes no sense, since I've stated many times already that I don't queue for vet DLC dungeons. So I'm obviously not expecting to be carried through them lol. I agree that people who queue expecting to be carried are being unfair. Unlike me, who has a very fair attitude toward my fellow players, they aren't being realistic about what they can do.

As I've said, we're not going to change each other's minds. And if it's about wasting time, I'm sure people reading this thread are tiring of the back and forth when we ain't going to budge. So unless you have something new to say that hasn't already been said (and isn't making up arguments that don't make sense), I'll leave it here.

Ardriel

AzuraFan wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

Why do you have such a problem with it? If you say you don't want to do vet DLCs anyway? Are you afraid the game considers you not good enough for veteran dungeons?

That makes no sense. I already know I'm not good enough, as I've stated. That's why I don't do vet DLC dungeons. So I'm not quaking in my boots afraid that the game will declare me not good enough. And I've already explained why I don't like the idea. You can read my previous posts for that.

(You're also forgetting about basegame vet dungeons. Again.)

Or is there perhaps a vague hope that a good group will carry you through the vet DLC dungeon, every time when you queue for random vet? Maybe even with hard mode? If so, I’d find it a very unfair attitude towards your fellow players.

That makes no sense, since I've stated many times already that I don't queue for vet DLC dungeons. So I'm obviously not expecting to be carried through them lol. I agree that people who queue expecting to be carried are being unfair. Unlike me, who has a very fair attitude toward my fellow players, they aren't being realistic about what they can do.

As I've said, we're not going to change each other's minds. And if it's about wasting time, I'm sure people reading this thread are tiring of the back and forth when we ain't going to budge. So unless you have something new to say that hasn't already been said (and isn't making up arguments that don't make sense), I'll leave it here.

This is what I wrote "when you queue for random vet" not "when you queue for vet DLC". I'm not forgetting about vet base game dungeons. So don't you queue for random vet or just vet dlc dungeons? Because when you queue for a random vet you can always end up in a vet dlc. Unless you're below cp 300 of course. That's what I meant. If you don't queue for vet dungeons at all or are below cp 300, I apologize that I have misunderstood you.

And it's absolutely okay if you have a different opinion on the whole thing.

AzuraFan

Ardriel wrote: »

This is what I wrote "when you queue for random vet" not "when you queue for vet DLC". I'm not forgetting about vet base game dungeons. So don't you queue for random vet or just vet dlc dungeons? Because when you queue for a random vet you can always end up in a vet dlc. Unless you're below cp 300 of course. That's what I meant. If you don't queue for vet dungeons at all or are below cp 300, I apologize that I have misunderstood you.

And it's absolutely okay if you have a different opinion on the whole thing.

When I've queued for a vet dungeon, I've queued for specific base game dungeon(s). I've never queued for a random vet dungeon. When I've done the base game vet dungeons, I've pulled my weight just fine, but I'm aware that my DPS is probably not high enough for vet DLC dungeons, and that's why I've never queued for a random one. I appreciate the apology.

tincanman

Heronisan wrote: »

..This random dungeon finder was made when we only had base game dungeons...

Not sure about that, could you please post a link to back up this assertion? I seem to recall queueing when the outcry then was too many low levels (in normal) and dlc dungeons coming up which is when/why zos implemented the 300cp and level minima. My recollection may be incorrect though, so a supporting link would be helpful.

Heronisan wrote: »

...Its also a problem how random Que finder is pooling together to many players with to many different goals...

And this is as it should be and by design: it is available to everyone with a character 10th level or higher in normal and 50th level for veteran (300cp additionally for dlc). The eclectic, inclusive mix is, well, random - from a tool ostensibly with the word 'random' in it.

Heronisan wrote: »

...And everytime someone suggests improvements to the tool, whats the number 1 suggestion? Dont use random dungeon finder if u want to have a good run...

Not quite. I and others suggest pre-forming your group leaving those who do so free to select and play whatever role they want, however they want, while nominally adhering to the tool-required roles of 1T, 1H and 2DD/DPS; the tool is then used to select the random dungeon and thereby earn participants the same xp and other rewards for the run. This approach is based on individuals' experience with pugs, some very similar to those described by others, and, separately and distinctly, the recognition that how I want to play when I "play how I want" should not be the determinant of how others choose to play when they "play as 'I'(they) want". Thus, as players pre-forming groups, we only end up, in this context at least, controlling the only player that any of us should have any control over: ourselves. Pre-forming groups eliminates pretty much all of the existential uncertainties and other issues with pugs often described in threads like this; once you choose and follow this pre-formed group route you will honestly wonder why you took so long to do so. And it leads, naturally, into groups for trials - or pretty much any content in the game, the latter especially within guilds with a 'social' emphasis.

Heronisan wrote: »

...When the number 1 solution is to not use it, it should ring some bells that it needs to be worked on...

Nah, it just rhetorically asks why this obstinate insistance on flogging the proverbial dead mount persists by expecting a non-random outcome from a tool that, by definition, is designed to provide a RANDOM group. Anyway, zos has already and commendably provided an extensive toolset for helping in pre-forming groups, although that does need a bit of work to improve options and eliminate some bugs.

Heronisan wrote: »

...So many people have such a bad experience in random dungeon finder its doing actual harm to the game. As people actuslly quit the game or avoid doing dungeons at all. There should not be a problem doing just the most basic upgrades to improve it.

I'm pretty sure that zos reasonably assumed that, while many might choose to use the tool initially, players would rapidly learn whether or not the tool was a good fit for their individual play-style or whether grouping with friends or joining a guild or using the additonal tools to pre-form groups was a better fit for them.

Even with personal anecdotal experiences and those shared and compared with others such as in this discussion, there must be the beginnnings of recognition that, over the years, the 'better'[TM] players(in any demographic) are and will continue to be naturally migrating AWAY from using the RANDOM group-finder, except in rare circumstances as noted.

Heronisan

tincanman wrote: »

Heronisan wrote: »

..This random dungeon finder was made when we only had base game dungeons...

Not sure about that, could you please post a link to back up this assertion? I seem to recall queueing when the outcry then was too many low levels (in normal) and dlc dungeons coming up which is when/why zos implemented the 300cp and level minima. My recollection may be incorrect though, so a supporting link would be helpful.

Heronisan wrote: »

...Its also a problem how random Que finder is pooling together to many players with to many different goals...

And this is as it should be and by design: it is available to everyone with a character 10th level or higher in normal and 50th level for veteran (300cp additionally for dlc). The eclectic, inclusive mix is, well, random - from a tool ostensibly with the word 'random' in it.

Heronisan wrote: »

...And everytime someone suggests improvements to the tool, whats the number 1 suggestion? Dont use random dungeon finder if u want to have a good run...

Not quite. I and others suggest pre-forming your group leaving those who do so free to select and play whatever role they want, however they want, while nominally adhering to the tool-required roles of 1T, 1H and 2DD/DPS; the tool is then used to select the random dungeon and thereby earn participants the same xp and other rewards for the run. This approach is based on individuals' experience with pugs, some very similar to those described by others, and, separately and distinctly, the recognition that how I want to play when I "play how I want" should not be the determinant of how others choose to play when they "play as 'I'(they) want". Thus, as players pre-forming groups, we only end up, in this context at least, controlling the only player that any of us should have any control over: ourselves. Pre-forming groups eliminates pretty much all of the existential uncertainties and other issues with pugs often described in threads like this; once you choose and follow this pre-formed group route you will honestly wonder why you took so long to do so. And it leads, naturally, into groups for trials - or pretty much any content in the game, the latter especially within guilds with a 'social' emphasis.

Heronisan wrote: »

...When the number 1 solution is to not use it, it should ring some bells that it needs to be worked on...

Nah, it just rhetorically asks why this obstinate insistance on flogging the proverbial dead mount persists by expecting a non-random outcome from a tool that, by definition, is designed to provide a RANDOM group. Anyway, zos has already and commendably provided an extensive toolset for helping in pre-forming groups, although that does need a bit of work to improve options and eliminate some bugs.

Heronisan wrote: »

...So many people have such a bad experience in random dungeon finder its doing actual harm to the game. As people actuslly quit the game or avoid doing dungeons at all. There should not be a problem doing just the most basic upgrades to improve it.

I'm pretty sure that zos reasonably assumed that, while many might choose to use the tool initially, players would rapidly learn whether or not the tool was a good fit for their individual play-style or whether grouping with friends or joining a guild or using the additonal tools to pre-form groups was a better fit for them.

Even with personal anecdotal experiences and those shared and compared with others such as in this discussion, there must be the beginnnings of recognition that, over the years, the 'better'[TM] players(in any demographic) are and will continue to be naturally migrating AWAY from using the RANDOM group-finder, except in rare circumstances as noted.

My bad, my memory was s little rusty since were going all the way back to 2017, we had the 4 oldest and easiest dlc's i almost count as base game, ICP, WGT, CoS, RoM.

Then a month before dungeon finder released we got the 2 easiest dlc, BRF and FRH. Which are nothing compared to the dlc's we are getting today.

Did you generate ur text in chat gpt or something?

Why are u writing an essay where basicly all you are saying is "not happy with random dungeon finder? Make ur own group and que with them"

Bruh.. Im saying the the nr 1 suggestion is to not use the random dungeon finder, you tell me im wrong and then ur suggestion is to not use the random dungeon finder but make my own group... Which is exactly what i said is the nr 1 suggestion

Just because its designed to give a RANDOM group doesnt mean it has to be badly designed.

no one is asking for a non RANDOM outcome just because they are asking for tutorials?

Even my suggestion, to make 1 RANDOM finder for base and 1 for dlc, does not remove the RANDOM nature of dgf... If all there was, was just 2 dungeons, if i qued for both of them, it would still be a RANDOM result. Just because its a RANDOM dungeon finder doesnt mean it has to suck

tincanman

Heronisan wrote: »

My bad, my memory was s little rusty since were going all the way back to 2017, we had the 4 oldest and easiest dlc's i almost count as base game, ICP, WGT, CoS, RoM.

Then a month before dungeon finder released we got the 2 easiest dlc, BRF and FRH. Which are nothing compared to the dlc's we are getting today.

Thanks for clarifying.

Heronisan wrote: »

Did you generate ur text in chat gpt or something?

I'm too fearfully and wonderfully made for that nonsense so, no: never have nor ever will. Anyway, chatGPT may be able to talk all four legs off an Arcturan Mega-Donkey but only I could persuade it to go for a walk afterwards.

Heronisan wrote: »

Why are u writing an essay where basicly all you are saying is "not happy with random dungeon finder? Make ur own group and que with them"

Hardly an essay, although the description did make me laugh, given my bad grammer, spelling errors and typos. But I did have a little more time than I usually might to post more than a single line satirical quip.

Heronisan wrote: »

Bruh.. Im saying the the nr 1 suggestion is to not use the random dungeon finder, you tell me im wrong and then ur suggestion is to not use the random dungeon finder but make my own group... Which is exactly what i said is the nr 1 suggestion

No, I actually said use the random dungeon finder - with a pre-made group and offered an alternative way of looking at things that was less limiting of self and others; sorry you were unable to understand that.

Heronisan wrote: »

Just because its designed to give a RANDOM group doesnt mean it has to be badly designed.

It's designed to create a random group (when not fully premade) and pick a random dungeon for that group: it does that very well. Nothing bad about that design; it functions as described. zos have already provided a bunch of related tools to help form somewhat more refined (less random) groups for various content, including dungeons.

Heronisan wrote: »

no one is asking for a non RANDOM outcome just because they are asking for tutorials?

I did state in an earlier post I had no objection to tutorials. I would object to any kind of 'pass this test before you play', though. Expecting every one else to play the way you do just because you want them to with a random tool currently and rightly open to all when you could instead opt for a much better, non-random solution that doesn't negatively affect anyone else seems rather limiting.

Anyway, out of time for rebuttals, verbose, misconstrued, misrepresented, misunderstood or otherwise. Have fun however you choose to play.

Ardriel

After reading everything, here my conclusion:

The majority would find a dungeon tutorial useful and necessary. The main reasons against a tutorial were that it would be useless and that players don't want to be forced into a certain play style.
Most players rejected the idea of a mandatory test at the end of the tutorial.

As far as the problems with fake roles in veteran dungeons are concerned, opinions were mixed.

I would like to clarify once again that my suggestion is for a tutorial for VETERAN DUNGEONS. Here's my suggestion for a compromise:

You could just make the whole thing OPTIONAL. Implement a test into the tutorial but don’t make it a requirement. Tutorial, including test should not take longer than 15-20 minutes.
Depending on the role, the most important tasks should be taught: taunting, debuffing, and survivability for tanks; healing, buffing, and distributing synergies for healers; dealing and avoiding damage, resurrecting for DPS, as well as a minimum DPS check.
There should be two levels: Level 1 qualifies for VET non-DLC dungeons, Level 2 for VET DLC dungeons.
There could be an overall rating based on performance in the test scenario, CP, and gear quality.
HOWEVER the test results should only serve as a guide: “you are now able to master veteran dungeons/veteran DLC dungeons.” It should be completely up to the player to decide whether they want to queue for vet dungeons or vet DLCs or not.
The tutorial and test should be repeatable at any time.
ZOS could include an achievement and/or an awesome reward/ a nice title (such as “Expert dungeon healer, Master Dungeon healer… I'm sure there are even better suggestions for good titles, so let's hear them ) as a motivation to do tutorial + test. A leaderboard score could be another possibility.

Perhaps this would be a compromise for some players?

I would like to point out again that this Tutorial should only be about the BASICS.
NO ONE should be forced to play a certain way or use a certain build.
The game cannot do the work for you in finding the best build for your role and experimenting with it, gaining experience, and interacting with other players


As far as restrictions are concerned, I would like to remind you once again that the game already has a minimum requirement of CP 300 for vet DLC dungeons.
However, I often see players with a lot more champion points who are not ready for veteran DLC dungeons. A tutorial could help them.

Many players use ESO's “play as you like” credo as an argument. But I think that unfortunately, this cannot be applied to VETERAN group content. That's just how it is.
Many players say: “I want to play how, what, and where I want.”
But ESO is a multiplayer game. In a group, you won't get far with such a selfish attitude. You have to adapt. If you want to experiment with exotic builds, you can also do so in normal dungeons or, ideally, in a group with friends. You can't expect your random group members to compensate for your poor performance/qualifications/skills. Everyone should do their part to contribute to success.


As for the other issue, fake roles:
Opinions were divided on this as well. It is often said that you should simply not use the dungeon finder to prevent ending up with fake tank or healer.
I consider this a very weak argument. After all, the dungeon finder is a tool designed to make it easier for players to find a group for a dungeon. And it should therefore be possible to use it and enjoyable, not frustrating.

There were also some interesting suggestions on how to solve the problem.
I think frogthroat's suggestion with the “ignore group composition” checkbox is a really good one.

My main concern is to make group play and the dungeon finder more attractive to all players.
More and more players are leaving ESO. I love this game and don't want it to be abandoned due to a lack of players. That would be terrible.

Ishtarknows

I find the 300 CP minimum for vet DLCs to be quite low since CP 2.0. The minimum should have been increased since the amount of xp (and therefore time played, knowledge hopefully gained etc) to get to 300 in the previous CP version was significantly higher than it is now.

I get it, CP is a blunt tool to judge how well someone performs in group content. We all know of 3000+ CP players who don't have a clue and much lower players who are very good, but, as a healer I see that things like defensive buffs are very noticeably absent from lower CP players, and often their damage taken is so much higher than that of other 1500+ players that they need pocket healing often to the detriment of the rest of the group.

Necrotech_Master

if players actually learned from running normals, they would be more prepared for vets

hence my "normal is the tutorial" stance in this thread lol

but due to the other issues of normals (full groups being essentially greatly overpowered in normals, experienced players trying to speedrun in queues, etc) most people learn nothing from normals except that its a quick way to get xp or farm gear, they dont go in with a mindset of trying to get a basic understanding of mechanics

in my experience, queueing up for vet dungeons usually tends to get more competent teams that actually are built for the roles they queued in on (less fake roles and speedrunners in vet queue for sure)

for the rest, who are basically still new and learning to do vets, as sharp-as-night would say "skill issue" (they havent had time to actually learn or know how to improve their builds)

which again goes back to another point i made about the playerbase not having patience for people who are trying to learn

its pretty hard to learn how to tank or heal in normals for example because the dmg from enemies is extremely low (hence why most dps can solo them fairly easy) (tanks dont have much to "tank" enemies die so fast and dont hit very hard) (healers dont learn because enemies dont hit hard)

its harder to learn to dps in normals because the enemy hps are pretty low too (most trash mobs only have about 30-60k hp in normals)

so i go back to my point that i firmly believe that normal dungeons are meant to be the tutorial, but because of how disparate the difficulty is between normal and vet, and the fact that people dont usually learn much on normal in standard group runs, the experience doesnt very well translate over to vet

adding more requirements (as either forced additional tutorials, or gear checks of some kind) will cause less people to want to queue for vet, and will do exactly the opposite of what you want (wanting more people to queue)