ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

No matter how many tutorials are provided in the game, as long as players are unwilling to face the facts and learn, those fake characters will always exist.

Today I participated in a vOC and we failed at the first boss. Looking at the logs, over half of the DPS had a lot of healing spells in their builds and only used heavy attacks. Therefore, the highest and lowest DPS differed by a factor of three, which led to an ever-increasing number of adds that eventually overwhelmed the group. When someone raised the issue, those with excessive healing spells and only used heavy attacks loudly proclaimed that the logs were meaningless and that they had helped with healing, etc.

Demanding adequate damage from DPS is not elitism; it's like not expecting someone without a medical degree and license to perform heart surgery. If you can't even meet the basic requirements, how can you expect people to believe you can accomplish anything?

People can lack experience with the mechanics, but they cannot lack adequate gear, damage/healing, and attitude. The problem we face now is those fake characters—players who lack sufficient damage, tanking ability, and healing output, arrogantly believing "their build is fine," and refusing to listen to any advice that can help them improve.

I think establishing in-game character certification might be a good solution. Previously, the ability to complete a VMA without taking damage was used as a standard of competence, but VMA are too easy for the latest Dungeons and Trials, and they don't effectively test a healer's or tank's skill level. A mini-game simulating the Dungeons or Trials environment, testing how much damage or healing you can deal within a time limit, or whether you can tank a boss for a certain period, would not only help newcomers adapt to the realities of Dungeons and Trials but also help leaders screen qualified members.

You're absolutely right. And that's why my suggestion wasn't just a short tutorial, but a proper little test that you have to complete with the respective role. In WoW, for example, there is or was something like that.
Players should master the necessary skills for their role. For damage dealers, there should be a minimum dps check.

There's almost nothing I haven't experienced in the dungeon finder. Even tanks who didn't know what taunt is.
Of course, it would also be important to inform players about gear and builds. Where does the game explain the important of traits and certain skills? You have to find out for yourself using the internet looking for ESO guides.
So often, the wrong skills are used, or there are hardly any debuffs, for example, no crusher on the backbar weapon, etc. I see it again and again that DPS put a lot of points into health or play with a 1-hand + shield. You can tell from their playing style that they are not experienced players who are just quickly doing a random with their PVP character. They simply don't know which builds are good for doing decent damage.

That's why I think a special tutorial for group content, i.e. vet dungeons, would be useful. During the tutorial, players should learn the most important basics. That would save a lot of players a lot of frustration.

Of course, there will always be those who refuse to learn. As for players who are resistant to advice, there's really nothing you can do. They don't want to deal with builds and claim that dps and numbers aren’t important. But of course they want to do vet content, preferably with hard mode. The only thing that helps is to kick them.

Of course, you can't take all the effort away from the players and spoon-feed them. Everyone has to engage with the game and gain their own experience, communicate with other players. After all, it is an online multiplayer game.
A tutorial should only teach the most important things. A tutorial which only teaches blocking, interrupting, and heavy attacks is not enough though.

nb_rich wrote: »

no one should be allowed to que up as a tank if they do not have a sword and shield or ice staff equipped

I'm sorry but why? If I have a taunt, can survive the boss, hold it in place, chain in adds, even buff the group, what does it matter if I have a shield or an ice staff? Yes, your average player might be better off with these builds, but that doesn't mean you can't do the job right without them.

nb_rich wrote: »

and for healers they should not be able to que up without a healing staff equipped.

Again, why? There are so many heals that do not require a resto staff. There are so many cases where carrying one is complete overkill. I say this as someone who has healed some of the hardest content in the game - you do not need a resto staff on a healer in many DLC dungeons. Do I run one anyway? Most of the time yes. But sometimes it's refreshing to do something else, and if I can meet the requirements for my role, why should I be blocked from joining?

nb_rich wrote: »

With this we shouldn’t be allowed to switch weapons in the middle of a dungeon

So no more having fun creating different builds that work well for different parts of the dungeon?

Can we please not aim to punish people who can play the game well and who dare step a tiny bit outside these narrow definitions of what some people think roles should be? I won't claim there isn't an issue, because there is, but this isn't a good way to solve it.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I think establishing in-game character certification might be a good solution.

I like this idea, but I'm not sure what the best way to do it would be. If it could be done well, it would make way more sense than setting limits on what people can equip.

Suggestions here ask for:

-Boring tutorials which will either be skipped by the people who need them (if optional) or replayed on every toon by the people who don't (if mandatory)
-Circumventable qualification checks
-Giving up player freedom
-Confronting weak players with a reality check + lockout

All because the randoms in a group weren't as people would have liked them to be. Aren't those solutions worse than a kick or custom grouping?

Fake tanks and healers are bad but I just queued for a random vet on my healer and the two dd's in the first dungeon took 10 minutes killing 7 adds. The tank left so did I, so I queued again and got a vet dlc dungeon and exactly the same thing happened, one of the dd's was literally just spamming light attacks with daggers and the other was spamming beam with no crux...

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

In a game like ESO any kind of gear based gating will not be viable. What we need is a tutorial that focuses on the basics of each role, that player needs to pass to be able to queue on said role for a vet dungeon or join a vet trial in group finder.

For example:

Healer: you need to keep your NPC teammates alive (while they stand in red) and produce at least 50k raw HPS. You need to have at least one Major damage buff (Courage, Slayer, Force, etc.) and maintain it with min 50% uptime. You need to provide at least one synergy on cooldown. If you or one of your teammats dies or your HPS drops, you fail and start over.

That would send the wrong message to the DPS. The damage dealer's job should also be to avoid damage and not stubbornly stand in red areas. For the simulation, there would simply have to be constant damage for all group members that needs to be healed but cannot be avoided.

SwordOfSagas wrote: »

Fake tanks and healers are bad but I just queued for a random vet on my healer and the two dd's in the first dungeon took 10 minutes killing 7 adds. The tank left so did I, so I queued again and got a vet dlc dungeon and exactly the same thing happened, one of the dd's was literally just spamming light attacks with daggers and the other was spamming beam with no crux...

Fake dds (yes they exists)

frogthroat wrote: »

It could be a tutorial dungeon where you are given a loadout for each role. You pick up a quest and it takes you to three scenarios. The mechanic for this is already programmed in with Vengeance. No set bonuses, pre-made skill loadouts.

1. A team of NPCs are missing a tank, you will fill in. Need to equip 5 heavy armour, taunt one boss and block a few hits. If you don't have heavy pieces, there's 5 body pieces in the starting area, with a sword and board. No set bonuses anyway, so only the armor rating matters.
2. Second scenario, healer is missing so you fill in. 5 light pieces in the starting area, and a resto staff. Need to place an AOE ground HOT, a sticky HOT and a burst heal.
3. And in the last scenario DD is missing. 5 medium pieces and a 2h axe (because for some reason ZOS loves 2h axe as a tutorial weapon) and you need to place a DOT and do some direct damage.

After those scnearios the quest giver praises you to be the best recruit he has seen and gives you some gold and xp.

Could be tied to guilds, like Fighters Guild or Undaunted. Or even divided between the guilds. Get a tank tutorial from the Undaunted, healer tutorial from Mages Guild and a DD tutorial from Fighters Guild.

I like this idea