We need a dungeon tutorial and minimum requirements for roles

Ardriel · December 4

I'm talking about veteran dungeons, of course. There are no requirements for normal dungeons, as many of them can be done solo anyway.
But veteran dungeons, especially veteran DLC dungeons, can be very frustrating for groups. This is partly due to inexperienced players who underestimate the increased difficulty and/or don't understand mechanics. It's also due to “fake roles,” mainly fake tanks.

Many players lack a basic understanding of group play in dungeons. For example, the dps stand too far away from bosses, behind the healer. Or they stand very close and in front of the boss. Many players do not know that aoe areas in vet dungeons can often be deadly, that only the tank should use taunt abilities, and that, if possible, the dps are responsible for resurrecting. Not to mention basic understanding of game mechanics.
There are many more examples. This can lead to frustration among both experienced and inexperienced players. Beginners are often kicked from groups and do not even know what they did wrong.
You can't expect beginners to search for tutorials and guides on the internet. That's the game's job!
Please introduce a dungeon tutorial. With an AI-controlled group scenario, players should learn what tasks they have in their role within the group. For tanks, this means taunting, blocking, and distributing debuffs to enemies. For healers, it means buffs and synergies for the group, as well as regular healing. For dps, this means correct positioning and a DPS check to ensure that the player has understood and can use the basic mechanics of their class skills. Of course also basic things like blocking, moving out of aoes and interrupting enemies.
Only after successfully completing this tutorial with their role should players be able to queue for vet dungeons in the Dungeon Finder with that role.

The second issue is the fake role problem. The dungeon finder should set minimum requirements for roles. I know this would be difficult. What requirements should a tank have? Health? Resistances? Heavy armor? What about the healer? Healing staff? Healing skills? And the dps? Maximum attribute points in stamina or magicka? Difficult, there are also very good dps who don't have that. I guess, ZOS needs to come up with something clever for this problem but we really need a solution.

In addition, it would be absolutely essential for the game to provide hints and tips on mechanics during boss fights. This could be an optionally activateable NPC that is only visible to the player, or something similar.
I often see groups failing in vet DLC dungeons because they don't understand the boss mechanics. Often, it's a lack of understanding and language barriers that cause them to fail.

If ZOS would finally address these issues, the game could become much more attractive again, especially for beginners. We need players. Players who stay in the game and don't give up in frustration after a few weeks.

KalevaLaine · December 4

I totally agree with you. However, I also have no idea how to integrate the role check.
Maybe via the stats, or perhaps the gear? I think both would be very difficult.

I think a tutorial would be great. Lots of wipes and no progress. Not everyone is in a guild. And as you say, many people don't see some mechanics, or at least not right away.
In principle, boss mechanics are often explained in the mobs beforehand, but that requires you to pay attention.

oddarin · December 4

While I actually agree with the 'fake role' part, something really should be done with all this fake tanks and healers, I'm totally disagree with the idea that game must lead you by hand through the content, especially vet and hm. It is our part as gamers to learn how to, well, play. Exploring and trying is part of fun - if everything would be specified beforehand why we'd even need a quests and story, just read instuctions "go there, stand here, hit then" and you're awesome. If you don't want to find your way to play what's the point of playing at all?

Gabriel_H · December 4

KalevaLaine wrote: »

I totally agree with you. However, I also have no idea how to integrate the role check.
Maybe via the stats, or perhaps the gear? I think both would be very difficult.

There is already a level and CP check on enetering vet dungeons and DLC dungeons.

You could incorporate a system into the dungeon finder, and also have it scale. 33k res isn't needed for vFG1. If you don't meet the requirements you get told why.

You could base them per role on:

Tank: Resistance and Health (unbuffed ~26k+ res & 32k+ health at the top end)

Healer/DD is the more tricky part because of hybridization and shared stats but there is one stat that isn't shared, so:

DD: Penetration and Weapon/Spell Damage (unbuffed ~3,500 pen & ~3,500 wd/sd at the top end)
Healer: Penetration and Weapon/Spell Damage (unbuffed less than ~2,000 pen & ~3,500 wd/sd at the top end)

It would mean that DLC dungeons would effectively be given "levels", if somewhat through the back door. That would lock some players out depending on where you set those requirements.

Note: Not advocating either way, just giving an example of a system that would do this.

alpha_synuclein · December 4

Big yes for an extended role tutorial for all vet pve content.

twisttop138 · December 4

There are always tells for boss fight mechanics, usually in the add pulls preceding the boss. You just have to know to look. As for the issue, a tutorial would be really good. A shocking number of people don't know that red lines around an enemy mean interrupt and gold lines mean block or roll. Or simple tricks like making enemy AOE a noticable color, mines a hot pink, so you can remember to get out of stupid.

Here's the problem though. When you enter a random que, there's no way to predict how strangers will act or if your goals are aligned. As long as tanks and healers get faster pops, people will take advantage of that with no intention of playing that role. While fine in normals, I'd say DLC vet is good to have a tank at least.

My solution is simple but doesn't work for everyone. In my main guild I try to tell the players new or returning that they shouldn't pug unless they're totally cool with everything that could happen. If they want certainty they should make a group themselves or ask an officer to make rosters. We have dedicated rosters to vet dungeon learning and it's never hard to find a few members to help you if you need a group. But this is obviously not going to work for everyone, though I recommend giving it a shot.

PeacefulAnarchy · December 4

Gabriel_H wrote: »

KalevaLaine wrote: »

I totally agree with you. However, I also have no idea how to integrate the role check.
Maybe via the stats, or perhaps the gear? I think both would be very difficult.

There is already a level and CP check on enetering vet dungeons and DLC dungeons.

You could incorporate a system into the dungeon finder, and also have it scale. 33k res isn't needed for vFG1. If you don't meet the requirements you get told why.

You could base them per role on:

Tank: Resistance and Health (unbuffed ~26k+ res & 32k+ health at the top end)

Healer/DD is the more tricky part because of hybridization and shared stats but there is one stat that isn't shared, so:

DD: Penetration and Weapon/Spell Damage (unbuffed ~3,500 pen & ~3,500 wd/sd at the top end)
Healer: Penetration and Weapon/Spell Damage (unbuffed less than ~2,000 pen & ~3,500 wd/sd at the top end)

It would mean that DLC dungeons would effectively be given "levels", if somewhat through the back door. That would lock some players out depending on where you set those requirements.

Note: Not advocating either way, just giving an example of a system that would do this.

I know these are just examples, but they show just how unmanageable a system like this is. Major and minor resolve give 9k resistance, there other temporary sources of resistance and also for vet and even a lot of HM content you don't need 33k resistance. So a tank with 15k unbuffed resistances could be fine.

Your healer dd split makes even less sense, many dds don't have that much unbuffed pen, though I suppose they should unless running alkosh, but all healers have a lot of pen just from wearing light armor. Healers also need wd/sd and get it just from high mag pool.

Beyond all this, of course, is that it doesn't account for a) fakes who would just queue in different gear and swap in dungeon and b) people who have basic builds that meet the requirements but don't have the experience.

ESO competence relies so much on skill that a stat check would either exclude creative and functional builds for a role or be so broad that it serves no meaningful purpose.

Ezhh · December 4

Fully agree that there should be better tutorials. It's a serious issue with the game. But:

Ardriel wrote: »

The second issue is the fake role problem. The dungeon finder should set minimum requirements for roles. I know this would be difficult. What requirements should a tank have? Health? Resistances? Heavy armor? What about the healer? Healing staff? Healing skills? And the dps? Maximum attribute points in stamina or magicka? Difficult, there are also very good dps who don't have that. I guess, ZOS needs to come up with something clever for this problem but we really need a solution.

There's too many issues here. I and/or various friends have been able to tank and heal many DLC dungeons (including DLC HM dungeons) with zero issues on builds many people would call fake on principle, but when played well perform more than well enough for dungeon clears. This has included everything from tanks with only med/light armour and nothing in hp, to stam healers. Yes, your average player probably won't be able to play these well enough, and not every option works for every dungeon (there's a big difference in hp/armour needed for the more recent DLC dungeons compared to some older ones), but a system that prevents you grouping unless you meet arbitrary requirements you might not need to perform your role is hugely offputting. You may well chase some genuinely capable support players out the queue entirely with any such system.

The problem is that player skill is such a huge factor in this game. If you try say a tank needs x hp or x armour at a minimum, it will be true for some players, not needed at all by others, and not close to enough for others again. It could also even reinforce some quite damaging stereotypes, like more hp always = good for tanks for example, when what more hp does beyond a certain point is reduce your resources and leave you struggling to block/dodge/cast enough.

Far better to focus on ways to help players learn.

valenwood_vegan · December 4

Advanced and role-specific tutorials beyond the very basic intro (and dummy parsing) would be very welcome.

The game arbitrarily telling me how I have to set up my character would not be welcome, but so long as any of these these tests or restrictions or requirements are just for the random dungeon finder then whatever I suppose, would just be yet another reason to avoid it.

Imo, it would be a lot of work to still not actually solve the underlying problem that you can't guarantee how random strangers grouped together are going to behave and whether they'll be compatible or not.

Gabriel_H · December 4

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

KalevaLaine wrote: »

I totally agree with you. However, I also have no idea how to integrate the role check.
Maybe via the stats, or perhaps the gear? I think both would be very difficult.

There is already a level and CP check on enetering vet dungeons and DLC dungeons.

You could incorporate a system into the dungeon finder, and also have it scale. 33k res isn't needed for vFG1. If you don't meet the requirements you get told why.

You could base them per role on:

Tank: Resistance and Health (unbuffed ~26k+ res & 32k+ health at the top end)

Healer/DD is the more tricky part because of hybridization and shared stats but there is one stat that isn't shared, so:

DD: Penetration and Weapon/Spell Damage (unbuffed ~3,500 pen & ~3,500 wd/sd at the top end)
Healer: Penetration and Weapon/Spell Damage (unbuffed less than ~2,000 pen & ~3,500 wd/sd at the top end)

It would mean that DLC dungeons would effectively be given "levels", if somewhat through the back door. That would lock some players out depending on where you set those requirements.

Note: Not advocating either way, just giving an example of a system that would do this.

I know these are just examples, but they show just how unmanageable a system like this is. Major and minor resolve give 9k resistance, there other temporary sources of resistance and also for vet and even a lot of HM content you don't need 33k resistance. So a tank with 15k unbuffed resistances could be fine.

Your healer dd split makes even less sense, many dds don't have that much unbuffed pen, though I suppose they should unless running alkosh, but all healers have a lot of pen just from wearing light armor. Healers also need wd/sd and get it just from high mag pool.

Beyond all this, of course, is that it doesn't account for a) fakes who would just queue in different gear and swap in dungeon and b) people who have basic builds that meet the requirements but don't have the experience.

ESO competence relies so much on skill that a stat check would either exclude creative and functional builds for a role or be so broad that it serves no meaningful purpose.

First off, the numbers are a ballpark.

Second, it isn't about what you need, those values are simply a function of the role. Anyone sporting 5 pieces of heavy armour purple will be hitting around 26k res. You'd have to be half-naked to be at 15k. Every DD at the top end is sporting more than 4k pen, again it's just a function of equipping for the role.

Of course someone can game the system but i'm also a big believer that ZOS should limit gear changes in dungeons. Altering a few skills is one thing, but there really shouldn't be a need to alter gear on the fly.

As to your last point, this is simply for the Dungeon Finder. Nothing would exclude someone manually porting in with friends to run whatever build they want.

The question becomes what is the scale of those affected? How many people run sub-par tank builds and make up for it with skill vs how many people have runs ruined by fake roles? There is a cost to everything.

PeacefulAnarchy · December 4

A tank with all heavy purple has 16k resistance with a shield plus 2.4k from heavy armor passives (343 x7)
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Reinforced_(trait)
That's 18.4. swap a medium helm and light shoulder and you're at around 16k.
This tank on an arc can get an extra 15k resistances from resolve and passives but only in combat. This can be a meta gear tank, not some weird build.

DDs in medium armor can have very little pen and this was meta until subclassing expected to be made up by the tank and maybe force of nature. Yes DDs now use herald to get a bunch of pen, but you don't need to be that dd to do perfectly well in any vet dungeon

tomfant · December 4

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Advanced and role-specific tutorials beyond the very basic intro (and dummy parsing) would be very welcome.

The game arbitrarily telling me how I have to set up my character would not be welcome

100% agree.

frogthroat · December 5

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

A tank with all heavy purple has 16k resistance with a shield plus 2.4k from heavy armor passives (343 x7)
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Reinforced_(trait)
That's 18.4. swap a medium helm and light shoulder and you're at around 16k.

Just a little side note: if you for some reason use traits to buff your armour (and for some even more strange reason use more than just chest for trait-based armour buff) there is another trait than Reinforced -- Nirnhoned.

For light pieces -> Nirnhoned is always better than Reinforced.
For medium pieces -> Chest is better as Reinforced, all other pieces are better with Nirnhoned.
For heavy pieces -> Reinforced wins for every other piece, except hands and waist are better with Nirnhoned.

The difference is not that much, but if you are using resistance increasing traits for some reason, why not minmax.

And yeah, monster set is good for the medium hat and light shoulders, while other pieces heavy. This way you get max effect from Undaunted passives, too.

wolfie1.0. · December 5

It's hard to see some mechanics because zos doesnt have a native colorblind mode, and not every attack lays down a ground AOE to avoid.

And for the love of all that ESO entails, let us change the damned color of the enemies names its impossible to read.

And if you dont want to do color blind modes then cut it out with flashy skills so clutter is less.

Last'One · December 5

"Don't understand mechanics"? What mechanics?!
"Fake roles"?! Hum!? Seriously?

You're not talking about Veteran Dungeons, you're talking about DLC Veteran HM dungeons, correct?

Because with all this Arcanist Overpower Beam, it's all anyone needs. Old players, new players, tank, healer, or DPS… everyone just goes beeeaammm!!!

So tell me: what mechanics are you talking about? What fake roles??
All of this is happening because of the power-creep Overpower Beam Arcanist. It’s been a problem for a long time and, as a bonus, Zenimax released Subclassing just to give it even more power!

At this point it feels like Morpheus is standing in front of us, holding out two pills:

Take the blue pill… keep beaming and pretend roles and mechanics still exist.
Take the red pill… and fully awaken to the truth: the Beam and Subclassing have completely broken the game.

We don’t need anything else except: nerf the Arcanist, remove Subclassing, bring real roles and class identity back into the game again.
But oh… right. We’re going to get all that in… three years!

Bro… just BEEEEEAMMMMM!!!

Varana · December 5

twisttop138 wrote: »

As for the issue, a tutorial would be really good. A shocking number of people don't know that red lines around an enemy mean interrupt and gold lines mean block or roll.

And there's another problem: that tutorial exists. All starting quests up to the current reworked Coldharbour, have always included a tutorial on blocking, dodging, and interrupting.
But just as the best way to hide information is to write it into a file called "README_NOW.txt", no one takes tutorials seriously.

Orbital78 · December 5

The game has always relied on 3rd party content creators to explain the game. The issue is with so many changes over the years, there is often misinformation at least on builds because they are nerfed and outdated.

Most casual players are not going to watch youtube to figure out how to do mechanics, so it is up to you to type out a tutorial everytime.

twisttop138 · December 5

Varana wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

As for the issue, a tutorial would be really good. A shocking number of people don't know that red lines around an enemy mean interrupt and gold lines mean block or roll.

And there's another problem: that tutorial exists. All starting quests up to the current reworked Coldharbour, have always included a tutorial on blocking, dodging, and interrupting.
But just as the best way to hide information is to write it into a file called "README_NOW.txt", no one takes tutorials seriously.

Well that's my error. I haven't done the tutorial since console launch. You make a good point on tutorials though. I would say though that tutorials at the beginning of the game when everything is so new it might be hard to take it all in, might not be effective. One would hope that a tutorial when one is seasoned enough to want to take their journey into veteran content, might be more effective. But I could be very wrong.

Major_Mangle · December 5

The fix: Make your own group with like minded individuals, interact and talk to people and stop expecting randoms to play the way you want......

Soarora · December 5

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The fix: Make your own group with like minded individuals, interact and talk to people and stop expecting randoms to play the way you want......

The problem is that the game is never teaching people HOW to do their role... and lots of pugs are unwilling to ask for or accept help. Fundamentally, a lack of knowledge goes beyond playing how one wants. Pug tanks should know what a taunt is and that if they don't block a heavy attack on a s&b or ice staff, they will die... before they get into a random dungeon and make the group fail. DPS should know they need to stand in front of the healer to get properly healed and buffed and basic combat like bashing. Healing I think is the most "anything goes" role since it's kinda just a catch-all third slot of buffing, debuffing, healing, and damage dealing. The game is continuing to fail new players the longer we don't have advanced combat tutorials.

AnduinTryggva · December 6

I think the idea of a small dungeon tutorial is great. That very rudimental fight tutorial that one gets when launching a new character is really lacking in the department to explain things like aoe, dots, direct damage, dodge roll etc.
These things you learn only by talking to other guys, on internet or if you put an extra effort in it by yourself. The latter, given the wealth of activities that one is thrown at by the game, is too much to ask.

As for the fake roles: in non vet non dlc dungeons this does not matter at all to my experience unless you happen to be in an all beginner group which is unlikely.

So a check should only apply to vet. Anyway, if at all, because I think it would be desastrous to exclude players from learning the ropes by failing given that we don't have other ways of learning than by failing or getting instructions from other players.

I also am a fervent supporter of giving inexperienced players advice when you stumble in a group of people where you meet somebody failing because of lack of experience because, see above, instruction thru other players is one of the rare ways of learning one's role.

Northwold · December 6

Any tutorial should include mention of the damage circles (which show you when you're standing in a danger zone), which are not enabled in the game options by default and many people don't know exist. (Personally I discovered them four or five years after I first started playing ESO.)

Last'One · December 6

You’re asking for guilds + YouTube + nerfs??
Ahhh… nope! That’s not happening.
I mean… not now. Maybe in 3 years, or 4… or 2... Or never...

Necrotech_Master · December 6

normal difficulty IS the dungeon tutorial lol

if people dont understand roles or mechanics, it means people arent paying attention or learning anything while in normal difficulty

i know this problem itself is exacerbated by experienced players doing normal dungeons on near or meta dps builds that burn everything in normal super fast, and a lot of mechanics in normal are almost ignorable because 1-shots on vet are only about 50-80% dmg on normal and thus most ignore it

part of the problem with mechanics could be resolved by making 1 shots 1 shots on normal, this would force people to learn them without the heavily increased dmg from every other mechanic and more signify their importance

fake roles are typically a problem on normal because experienced players generally dont need help in the dungeon and just want it to get done as quick as possible, this has branching consequences of less experienced players not learning anything and then being woefully underprepared when attempting to do veteran difficulty

Soarora · December 6

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

normal difficulty IS the dungeon tutorial lol

if people dont understand roles or mechanics, it means people arent paying attention or learning anything while in normal difficulty

i know this problem itself is exacerbated by experienced players doing normal dungeons on near or meta dps builds that burn everything in normal super fast, and a lot of mechanics in normal are almost ignorable because 1-shots on vet are only about 50-80% dmg on normal and thus most ignore it

part of the problem with mechanics could be resolved by making 1 shots 1 shots on normal, this would force people to learn them without the heavily increased dmg from every other mechanic and more signify their importance

fake roles are typically a problem on normal because experienced players generally dont need help in the dungeon and just want it to get done as quick as possible, this has branching consequences of less experienced players not learning anything and then being woefully underprepared when attempting to do veteran difficulty

I did normal unhallowed grave yesterday and I was shocked that— on the lich boss in execute— the consequence for not hiding behind the pillar was… you get feared. That’s all. No noticeable DoT to teach you to not just eat the waves. So everyone else just stayed out there and I was the only one hiding behind a pillar…

Ardriel · December 7

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

normal difficulty IS the dungeon tutorial lol

if people dont understand roles or mechanics, it means people arent paying attention or learning anything while in normal difficulty

i know this problem itself is exacerbated by experienced players doing normal dungeons on near or meta dps builds that burn everything in normal super fast, and a lot of mechanics in normal are almost ignorable because 1-shots on vet are only about 50-80% dmg on normal and thus most ignore it

part of the problem with mechanics could be resolved by making 1 shots 1 shots on normal, this would force people to learn them without the heavily increased dmg from every other mechanic and more signify their importance

fake roles are typically a problem on normal because experienced players generally dont need help in the dungeon and just want it to get done as quick as possible, this has branching consequences of less experienced players not learning anything and then being woefully underprepared when attempting to do veteran difficulty

Normal dungeons can't be a tutorial because they are too easy. Players rush through while ignoring any mechanics. The only thing new players learn is "dungeons are super easy, you don't need to care about mechanics, I can queue as tank"
But on the other hand raising the difficulty of normal dungeons would scare many cashual players away from group content. There would be an outcry of protest.

Ardriel · December 7

Last'One wrote: »

"Don't understand mechanics"? What mechanics?!
"Fake roles"?! Hum!? Seriously?

You're not talking about Veteran Dungeons, you're talking about DLC Veteran HM dungeons, correct?

Because with all this Arcanist Overpower Beam, it's all anyone needs. Old players, new players, tank, healer, or DPS… everyone just goes beeeaammm!!!

So tell me: what mechanics are you talking about? What fake roles??
All of this is happening because of the power-creep Overpower Beam Arcanist. It’s been a problem for a long time and, as a bonus, Zenimax released Subclassing just to give it even more power!

At this point it feels like Morpheus is standing in front of us, holding out two pills:
Take the blue pill… keep beaming and pretend roles and mechanics still exist.

Take the red pill… and fully awaken to the truth: the Beam and Subclassing have completely broken the game.

We don’t need anything else except: nerf the Arcanist, remove Subclassing, bring real roles and class identity back into the game again.
But oh… right. We’re going to get all that in… three years!

Bro… just BEEEEEAMMMMM!!!

When I join a group as a tank or healer with such good players, I can be glad. Unfortunately, that doesn’t happen as often as you would think. Many times, I end up in groups where the dps don't use subclassing and/or have no idea about their class and game mechanics. Then boss mechanics need to be played because the damage isn't enough. The op Arcanist was ZOS’ solution for the skill gap problem. Casual players should be able to keep up. Previously, it was the Oakensoal Ring. If the Arcanist gets nerfed too heavy, many players may quit the game.

Varana wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

As for the issue, a tutorial would be really good. A shocking number of people don't know that red lines around an enemy mean interrupt and gold lines mean block or roll.

And there's another problem: that tutorial exists. All starting quests up to the current reworked Coldharbour, have always included a tutorial on blocking, dodging, and interrupting.
But just as the best way to hide information is to write it into a file called "README_NOW.txt", no one takes tutorials seriously.

The tutorials available in the game are far too rudimentary.
Players should get more tips from the game itself regarding skills, CP distribution, and mechanics. The “play however you want” motto gives the wrong impression.
If you want to keep up in endgame content, you can't just play however you want.

As soon as a new account reaches level 50, the game tells them they can now do veteran content. There is no mention that appropriate gear and skills are required to do so. Of course, a CP 20 player in a non-DLC dungeon isn't that dramatic. The others will carry them through. But if you join a group with a CP below 160 as a tank or healer, even a non-DLC dungeon can be stressful and take a long time.

That's why I'm talking about a dungeon tutorial that you HAVE to complete if you want to sign up for veteran dungeons in the dungeon finder.

Of course, all accounts would have to do this after such a feature was introduced. Which could be frustrating for some experienced players. For me personally, that wouldn't be a problem. You could sweeten the whole thing with a nice reward, achievement, skin, title, or something similar.

Last'One · December 7

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

normal difficulty IS the dungeon tutorial lol

if people dont understand roles or mechanics, it means people arent paying attention or learning anything while in normal difficulty

..."

It’s!? How? Why?
Take as an example a veteran trial where you get just 2 casual players and 2 players new to the game. If these casual players are using the almighty god Arcanist, they will just beam and skip every mechanic. 15 minutes and the dungeon is done!

Now imagine the same scenario, but with a top pro player who just wants to finish the dungeon as fast as possible. The other 3 players aren’t even needed. In 10 minutes he will do the dungeon alone.

Now imagine all this happening in Normal dungeons…
"Normal difficulty is the dungeon tutorial lol." Yea, lol!??!

What tutorial will a new player learn!?!
They can’t taunt, there’s nothing to taunt!
They can’t heal, there’s absolutely nothing to heal!
They can’t even understand the damn quest…

So what are these new players learning!?!

ZOS should give players mechanics to learn and should force them to actually do those mechanics.
ZOS should do everything possible to prevent players from skipping them.
But what does ZOS do instead?
ZOS give players every opportunity to skip the game instead of playing the game.
Why on earth does ZOS create mechanics just so players can skip them!?!?

nb_rich · December 7

This seems to always be a topic, even I brought this up a few times over the years.

When it comes to roles, no one should be allowed to que up as a tank if they do not have a sword and shield or ice staff equipped, and for healers they should not be able to que up without a healing staff equipped. With this we shouldn’t be allowed to switch weapons in the middle of a dungeon and the game should recognize okensoul users to avoid people queing up with the weapon and just changing it or being a 1 bar build with the alternate role weapon equipped on the back bar. Besides this there is no other way to control what someone ques up as.

I agree there needs to be tutorials/hints for trials/dungeons. We literally have no clue what to do unless someone goes online first and watches a video which also makes me wonder how the first person figured out what to do lol. Vet trials and dungeons have more/different mechanics then normal so its not like we learn much in normal especially when most normal content gets ran through so easily we don’t even care for mechanics.

When it comes to things like where someone should be positioned, I think thats just a communication issue. At the end of the day this is a MMO and if we play group content we should be communicating with each other. If the person is new they should let the group know, we got mics and even if the person is shy they can still listen or message in the chat. Every group is different, so where they might want us positioned can vary depending on who you are playing with. Even up to today I still learn new strategies or ways to complete different content.

AvalonRanger · December 7

We need a dungeon tutorial and minimum requirements for roles Bookmark

So! I keep saying that dev should make role certification flag system among this 5 years.

ZhuJiuyin · December 7

No matter how many tutorials are provided in the game, as long as players are unwilling to face the facts and learn, those fake characters will always exist.

Today I participated in a vOC and we failed at the first boss. Looking at the logs, over half of the DPS had a lot of healing spells in their builds and only used heavy attacks. Therefore, the highest and lowest DPS differed by a factor of three, which led to an ever-increasing number of adds that eventually overwhelmed the group. When someone raised the issue, those with excessive healing spells and only used heavy attacks loudly proclaimed that the logs were meaningless and that they had helped with healing, etc.

Demanding adequate damage from DPS is not elitism; it's like not expecting someone without a medical degree and license to perform heart surgery. If you can't even meet the basic requirements, how can you expect people to believe you can accomplish anything?

People can lack experience with the mechanics, but they cannot lack adequate gear, damage/healing, and attitude. The problem we face now is those fake characters—players who lack sufficient damage, tanking ability, and healing output, arrogantly believing "their build is fine," and refusing to listen to any advice that can help them improve.

I think establishing in-game character certification might be a good solution. Previously, the ability to complete a VMA without taking damage was used as a standard of competence, but VMA are too easy for the latest Dungeons and Trials, and they don't effectively test a healer's or tank's skill level. A mini-game simulating the Dungeons or Trials environment, testing how much damage or healing you can deal within a time limit, or whether you can tank a boss for a certain period, would not only help newcomers adapt to the realities of Dungeons and Trials but also help leaders screen qualified members.