Vengeance ruleset for Dungeons/Etc.

edward_frigidhands · November 29

SneaK wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Hi there, I have a genuine question:

As I’ve seen how the Vengeance TEST campaign in Cyrodiil has solved all the issues with performance and provided entries into portions of the game that many people have struggled with,,,
could we expect to see some similar tests for PvE?

I personally don’t have the gear or time to build out a 100k+ DPS character or a great healer build that would be required for some of the newer content. It sure would be nice to be able to select a template and just queue up with that template build so I could finally feel relevant and enjoy these portions of the game that I’m currently distanced from.

Oh yea, and I regularly see lag spikes in dungeons or sometimes while gathering skyshards (maybe my mount is just too fast!). Surely this new ruleset could fix this since it fixed Cyrodiil.

I dont see why the PvP community gets access to this type of feature and DLC PvE players don’t.

Thank you.

"Vengeance ruleset for Dungeons"

Sorry, NO!!!
Maybe, you're experienced player. I believe so.

But, most of unexperienced player who keep doing too much nonsense in the dungeon
even normal (fake tank, bad healer, low DPS, steal taunt from real tank...etc) doesn't have
basic group working knowledge.

I recommend "good group contents tutorial are made by ZOS" rather than
prefix character for some new dungeon mode test.

Well it’s moreso for performance, the template stuff would just be a bonus for players that don’t have time or want to learn which skills to run. And it would obviously be optional so the vets wouldn’t have to do it.

Exactly. Thank you for explaining this again.

Brumme · November 29

JustLovely wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

The performance is the same in both environments because it only takes 12 players with high APM to over tax the old servers ZOS is using. This is why overland PvE players don't see a problem, but the more highly skilled players pushing the hardest content do see it, regardless of the content they're running.

Overland has more server calcs than an instanced trial.

I think there is a pretty serious flaw in your thinking here. Maybe you could explain how a solo overland player is taxing the server more than a 12 player trial group with high APM players?

Because there isn't one player in the overland instance ...

Now please explain why the solo player in overland has perfect or near perfect performance and why the trial group or Cyrodiil has atrocious performance issues please.

only place I've had problems is in pvp, because so many cheats/scripts.
As soon as you get near someone who uses a script, it starts lagging like crazy.
Save pvp, get those cheaters kicked out.

everywhere else, even event places where there are 60-100 people, I have no problems with lag or fps

BardokRedSnow · November 29

Brumme wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

The performance is the same in both environments because it only takes 12 players with high APM to over tax the old servers ZOS is using. This is why overland PvE players don't see a problem, but the more highly skilled players pushing the hardest content do see it, regardless of the content they're running.

Overland has more server calcs than an instanced trial.

I think there is a pretty serious flaw in your thinking here. Maybe you could explain how a solo overland player is taxing the server more than a 12 player trial group with high APM players?

Because there isn't one player in the overland instance ...

Now please explain why the solo player in overland has perfect or near perfect performance and why the trial group or Cyrodiil has atrocious performance issues please.

only place I've had problems is in pvp, because so many cheats/scripts.
As soon as you get near someone who uses a script, it starts lagging like crazy.
Save pvp, get those cheaters kicked out.

everywhere else, even event places where there are 60-100 people, I have no problems with lag or fps

........ bruh.

CatoUnchained · November 29

The OP is operating in as good a faith as ZOS is with their push for vengeance. What's the problem?

CatoUnchained · November 29

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

I'm asking myself if people who downplay the PvE performance issues are aware that it's a known fact that some endgame guilds already disbanded over the performance issues in veteran trials.

And since PvE is played by 99% of the people (cause according to certain people us pvpers are just the 1%) I think PvE Vengeance is worth a try to prevent more guilds from disbanding and to save Pve environment as the cash cow for ZOS.

That's also in the interest for PvP players because we all know it's the PvE people who are saving ZOS from bankruptcy.

Project Vitality and Nefas left with U35, but not before publishing clear warnings that ESO would end right where it is now if ZOS continued down the same path they've decided to walk.

Too bad ZOS doesn't listen to feedback they don't want to hear.

Vengeance is a betrayal of the PvP community. Less than 10% of the PvP community will play vengeance. Vengeance if for PvE players.

Yep. Nobody on my friends list will be playing vengeance ever again. If it's mandated then there will be no reason to even log in.

LPapirius · November 30

JustLovely wrote: »

It's funny how the PvE community pushes so hard for vengeance but when the same system is proposed for PvE zones they freak out and throw down all kinds of reasons why the template mode is no good or not needed.

It sure is!

LPapirius · November 30

reazea wrote: »

salander7 wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

So suddenly Vengeance is no good if it is on the other foot? (PvE)
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

It is no good for pvp either, but pve players have chosen other battles when it comes to topics. Pvp players have complained, but I guess they're not vocal enough.
The main excuse for vengeance are performance related issues, which may be around, but given how cyrodiil has not always been terrible performance wise, there may be other situations where it works as it still is. Maybe they don't want to commit resources, maybe they don't have them, maybe the pvp playerbase is not big enough to be worth the effort. I don't know.
While that debate can be held, I've yet to see a pvp player excited about vengeance. The first test was something some people were curious about.
After it was clear it was butchering the gameplay, I haven't heard any pvp player wishing for it. Other people do have heard so, in fact apparently every pvp player but the ones I've talked about this with are super excited, according to some comments. Taking them with a grain of salt.

The only thing I can tell you is vengeance has deterred me from playing cyro whenever it's been up. However, I haven't played more than 5h of pvp since subclassing came around in pvp, so they may as well delete the mode for what I care about it these days, but that doesn't make it a good decision.
Saying this as a mainly pve player, and while pvp is not my main activity, that has gotten a char to pvp rank 50, another to rank 40ish and another to rank 30ish. I wanted to get them both to rank 45ish, but I guess it won't happen.

Edit: typo

Vengeance mode is already killing live Cyrodiil. Fewer and fewer PvP mains return after every test. And now we know live Cyrodiil is living on borrowed time and almost certainly has less than a year left before it's shut down.

[snip]

[Edit for Petitions and Protests]

I've noticed this too. With every instance of mandated vengeance fewer and fewer people return to PvP. Maybe they're PvE'ing, but more likely they just left the game because they see the writing on the wall and they'll, like me, never play any version of vengeance going forward.

SneaK · November 30

LPapirius wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

salander7 wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

So suddenly Vengeance is no good if it is on the other foot? (PvE)
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

It is no good for pvp either, but pve players have chosen other battles when it comes to topics. Pvp players have complained, but I guess they're not vocal enough.
The main excuse for vengeance are performance related issues, which may be around, but given how cyrodiil has not always been terrible performance wise, there may be other situations where it works as it still is. Maybe they don't want to commit resources, maybe they don't have them, maybe the pvp playerbase is not big enough to be worth the effort. I don't know.
While that debate can be held, I've yet to see a pvp player excited about vengeance. The first test was something some people were curious about.
After it was clear it was butchering the gameplay, I haven't heard any pvp player wishing for it. Other people do have heard so, in fact apparently every pvp player but the ones I've talked about this with are super excited, according to some comments. Taking them with a grain of salt.

The only thing I can tell you is vengeance has deterred me from playing cyro whenever it's been up. However, I haven't played more than 5h of pvp since subclassing came around in pvp, so they may as well delete the mode for what I care about it these days, but that doesn't make it a good decision.
Saying this as a mainly pve player, and while pvp is not my main activity, that has gotten a char to pvp rank 50, another to rank 40ish and another to rank 30ish. I wanted to get them both to rank 45ish, but I guess it won't happen.

Edit: typo

Vengeance mode is already killing live Cyrodiil. Fewer and fewer PvP mains return after every test. And now we know live Cyrodiil is living on borrowed time and almost certainly has less than a year left before it's shut down.

[snip]

[Edit for Petitions and Protests]

I've noticed this too. With every instance of mandated vengeance fewer and fewer people return to PvP. Maybe they're PvE'ing, but more likely they just left the game because they see the writing on the wall and they'll, like me, never play any version of vengeance going forward.

Great discussion, valid responses to the situation going on over in that space of the game. However, that isn’t the topic here and I sure wouldn’t want your feedback to get missed cause I know the dev team is reading all of it, I’d suggest moving your PvP centric discussion to a better related thread. This one is about bring Vengeance (ruleset) to PvE.

Thanks

LPapirius · November 30

SneaK wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

salander7 wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

So suddenly Vengeance is no good if it is on the other foot? (PvE)
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

It is no good for pvp either, but pve players have chosen other battles when it comes to topics. Pvp players have complained, but I guess they're not vocal enough.
The main excuse for vengeance are performance related issues, which may be around, but given how cyrodiil has not always been terrible performance wise, there may be other situations where it works as it still is. Maybe they don't want to commit resources, maybe they don't have them, maybe the pvp playerbase is not big enough to be worth the effort. I don't know.
While that debate can be held, I've yet to see a pvp player excited about vengeance. The first test was something some people were curious about.
After it was clear it was butchering the gameplay, I haven't heard any pvp player wishing for it. Other people do have heard so, in fact apparently every pvp player but the ones I've talked about this with are super excited, according to some comments. Taking them with a grain of salt.

The only thing I can tell you is vengeance has deterred me from playing cyro whenever it's been up. However, I haven't played more than 5h of pvp since subclassing came around in pvp, so they may as well delete the mode for what I care about it these days, but that doesn't make it a good decision.
Saying this as a mainly pve player, and while pvp is not my main activity, that has gotten a char to pvp rank 50, another to rank 40ish and another to rank 30ish. I wanted to get them both to rank 45ish, but I guess it won't happen.

Edit: typo

Vengeance mode is already killing live Cyrodiil. Fewer and fewer PvP mains return after every test. And now we know live Cyrodiil is living on borrowed time and almost certainly has less than a year left before it's shut down.

[snip]

[Edit for Petitions and Protests]

I've noticed this too. With every instance of mandated vengeance fewer and fewer people return to PvP. Maybe they're PvE'ing, but more likely they just left the game because they see the writing on the wall and they'll, like me, never play any version of vengeance going forward.

Great discussion, valid responses to the situation going on over in that space of the game. However, that isn’t the topic here and I sure wouldn’t want your feedback to get missed cause I know the dev team is reading all of it, I’d suggest moving your PvP centric discussion to a better related thread. This one is about bring Vengeance (ruleset) to PvE.

Thanks

Apologies for not expanding more on my comment. I framed my comments in terms of vengeance/PvP because that's the issue we're facing now. It's true that performance in trials and some vet dungeons is comparable to PvP performance, so PvE needs vengeance mode at least as much as PvP does. No argument there.

My point is nobody wants templated ESO, PvP or PvE. (outside of ZOS and their white knights anyway) ZOS wouldn't have a game if ESO was templated across the board and I'm pretty sure if they mandate vengeance in PvP the whole game will be dead within a year and they'll just shut down the game entirely at that point.

Iriidius · December 1

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Lmao now see, THIS is bait, but I agree.

Typically anything people disagree with on these forums can be considered bait. But you agree so you obviously understand where I’m coming from.

It is bait because you hate Vengeance in PvP and therefore it is very unlikely you like it in PvE and suggest it for other reason than to spite PvE players you blame for Vengeance.

Funny thing is most players supporting Vengeance are neither Trial players who probably would or already did join ballgroup to PvP nor VMA/Vateshran/IA scorerunners or Dungeon Healer/Tank/DD who if they can get good Solo/Healer/Tank/DD build in PvE can also get Duell/1vX/Tank/HealerGank/ build for PvP but casual players not having build, competitive PvPers wanting fair fights, former Pvper having left for problems Vengeance solved and current PvPers not in premade so you try to spite the wrong players.

SneaK wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Lag and gear are completely separate. The tests in Cyrodiil are all about server performance not player performance. There is some lag in trials and other similar content and it would be nice if that could be fixed. If you can't do the content now though you probably wouldn't be able to do it with a template.
Nothing requires 100k DPS to finish. If all DPS in the group can average 30K DPS and the group understands the mechanics you can make it through all content. You aren't going to make the leader boards but you can do the content.
Vengeance doesn't mean all of a sudden you are going to be competitive in PvP even if you have the same gear. Part of the problem with PvP is all the calculations that have to be made with cross heals, multiple AOE and all kinds of other stuff. Trials are limited to 12 players while PvP can have much more than that. PvP has many more calculations to make.
PvE could probably (I'm guessing) be helped with less effects going off?

PvE is nowhere near as laggy and unstable as PvP probably more than 90% of the time. Would be nice to have better server performance in trials and dungeons. Still either way even if ZoS did put you in a template build it won't mean much towards completion. I have a build where players are showing 110K DPS on a dummy and using that same build I'm lucky to push 60K. Just having the template won't mean much if your rotation isn't on point.
And for the most part the PvP crowd wants to be able to use all their available builds and sets. They want more diversity than what Vengeance provides.

All I’m asking for is for the dev team to bring Vengeance to PvE, since it’s saved Cyrodiil from lag.

Being in an even playing field with endgame PvErs is just a bonus.

If you recognice it saved Cyrodiil from Lag maybe you should write that in discussions about Vengeance in Cyrodiil rather than complain you hate it.

SneaK wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I won't comment on the PvP side of things since I do not PvP, but let's not pretend that this thread is anything other than a "we might suffer so they should too" type of thread.

As was mentioned in one of the posts above, this is a direct response to the recent Vengeance thread and to the concern that Scenario #2 is the future of PvP.

Bingo. It's a non-starter anyway because PvE does not have anywhere close to the performance issues of Cyrodiil. And PvP players have been making it clear for years that fixing performance should be their top priority. They tried for years to do just that so it's not surprising that their tests revealed that certain solutions simply aren't feasible.

Suffer? I’d like the option to have access to a better performing game in PvE and ZOS has the answer.

It's disingenuous to compare the performance of the two. PvE works fine compared to Cyrodiil. A small cut isn't the same as a broken leg even if both are injuries. And performance issues in Cyrodiil have been far more disruptive than PvE.

Again, I lag worse in PvE than anywhere. Just because you have a different opinion does not void my experience. And I don’t understand how it’s disingenuous, people are excited about the Vengeance ruleset cause it solved issues with lag and FPS, how is it a bad thing to start the discussion on improving the other parts of ESO’s performance?

And tell me how performance in Cyro has been more disruptive than PvE? Exactly what is the ranking system on what’s worse? Cause lagging out while standing at a trader in a Wayrest and then getting error coded for 5 mins trying to get back into the game seems up there with having to break free twice from a poorly designed and implemented warden charm.

You were not exited about Vengeance

LPapirius · December 1

Iriidius wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Lmao now see, THIS is bait, but I agree.

Typically anything people disagree with on these forums can be considered bait. But you agree so you obviously understand where I’m coming from.

It is bait because you hate Vengeance in PvP and therefore it is very unlikely you like it in PvE and suggest it for other reason than to spite PvE players you blame for Vengeance.

Funny thing is most players supporting Vengeance are neither Trial players who probably would or already did join ballgroup to PvP nor VMA/Vateshran/IA scorerunners or Dungeon Healer/Tank/DD who if they can get good Solo/Healer/Tank/DD build in PvE can also get Duell/1vX/Tank/HealerGank/ build for PvP but casual players not having build, competitive PvPers wanting fair fights, former Pvper having left for problems Vengeance solved and current PvPers not in premade so you try to spite the wrong players.

SneaK wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Lag and gear are completely separate. The tests in Cyrodiil are all about server performance not player performance. There is some lag in trials and other similar content and it would be nice if that could be fixed. If you can't do the content now though you probably wouldn't be able to do it with a template.
Nothing requires 100k DPS to finish. If all DPS in the group can average 30K DPS and the group understands the mechanics you can make it through all content. You aren't going to make the leader boards but you can do the content.
Vengeance doesn't mean all of a sudden you are going to be competitive in PvP even if you have the same gear. Part of the problem with PvP is all the calculations that have to be made with cross heals, multiple AOE and all kinds of other stuff. Trials are limited to 12 players while PvP can have much more than that. PvP has many more calculations to make.
PvE could probably (I'm guessing) be helped with less effects going off?

PvE is nowhere near as laggy and unstable as PvP probably more than 90% of the time. Would be nice to have better server performance in trials and dungeons. Still either way even if ZoS did put you in a template build it won't mean much towards completion. I have a build where players are showing 110K DPS on a dummy and using that same build I'm lucky to push 60K. Just having the template won't mean much if your rotation isn't on point.
And for the most part the PvP crowd wants to be able to use all their available builds and sets. They want more diversity than what Vengeance provides.

All I’m asking for is for the dev team to bring Vengeance to PvE, since it’s saved Cyrodiil from lag.

Being in an even playing field with endgame PvErs is just a bonus.

If you recognice it saved Cyrodiil from Lag maybe you should write that in discussions about Vengeance in Cyrodiil rather than complain you hate it.

SneaK wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I won't comment on the PvP side of things since I do not PvP, but let's not pretend that this thread is anything other than a "we might suffer so they should too" type of thread.

As was mentioned in one of the posts above, this is a direct response to the recent Vengeance thread and to the concern that Scenario #2 is the future of PvP.

Bingo. It's a non-starter anyway because PvE does not have anywhere close to the performance issues of Cyrodiil. And PvP players have been making it clear for years that fixing performance should be their top priority. They tried for years to do just that so it's not surprising that their tests revealed that certain solutions simply aren't feasible.

Suffer? I’d like the option to have access to a better performing game in PvE and ZOS has the answer.

It's disingenuous to compare the performance of the two. PvE works fine compared to Cyrodiil. A small cut isn't the same as a broken leg even if both are injuries. And performance issues in Cyrodiil have been far more disruptive than PvE.

Again, I lag worse in PvE than anywhere. Just because you have a different opinion does not void my experience. And I don’t understand how it’s disingenuous, people are excited about the Vengeance ruleset cause it solved issues with lag and FPS, how is it a bad thing to start the discussion on improving the other parts of ESO’s performance?

And tell me how performance in Cyro has been more disruptive than PvE? Exactly what is the ranking system on what’s worse? Cause lagging out while standing at a trader in a Wayrest and then getting error coded for 5 mins trying to get back into the game seems up there with having to break free twice from a poorly designed and implemented warden charm.

You were not exited about Vengeance

If you're so against vengeance for PvE, why are you so supportive of it for PvP when you don't even play PvP?

It is, in fact, primarily PvE casuals pushing for vengeance. And it's the same very small subset of posters promoting it.

Vengeance DID NOT stop the lag problem. The last version of vengeance had a much lower population than normal live Cyrodiil and about the same performance. In other words, vengeance did not fix anything for anyone. Vengeance might solve some internal issue at ZOS, but it does nothing for the player base.

edward_frigidhands · December 1

CatoUnchained wrote: »

The OP is operating in as good a faith as ZOS is with their push for vengeance. What's the problem?

SneaK · December 1

Iriidius wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Lmao now see, THIS is bait, but I agree.

Typically anything people disagree with on these forums can be considered bait. But you agree so you obviously understand where I’m coming from.

It is bait because you hate Vengeance in PvP and therefore it is very unlikely you like it in PvE and suggest it for other reason than to spite PvE players you blame for Vengeance.

Funny thing is most players supporting Vengeance are neither Trial players who probably would or already did join ballgroup to PvP nor VMA/Vateshran/IA scorerunners or Dungeon Healer/Tank/DD who if they can get good Solo/Healer/Tank/DD build in PvE can also get Duell/1vX/Tank/HealerGank/ build for PvP but casual players not having build, competitive PvPers wanting fair fights, former Pvper having left for problems Vengeance solved and current PvPers not in premade so you try to spite the wrong players.

SneaK wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Lag and gear are completely separate. The tests in Cyrodiil are all about server performance not player performance. There is some lag in trials and other similar content and it would be nice if that could be fixed. If you can't do the content now though you probably wouldn't be able to do it with a template.
Nothing requires 100k DPS to finish. If all DPS in the group can average 30K DPS and the group understands the mechanics you can make it through all content. You aren't going to make the leader boards but you can do the content.
Vengeance doesn't mean all of a sudden you are going to be competitive in PvP even if you have the same gear. Part of the problem with PvP is all the calculations that have to be made with cross heals, multiple AOE and all kinds of other stuff. Trials are limited to 12 players while PvP can have much more than that. PvP has many more calculations to make.
PvE could probably (I'm guessing) be helped with less effects going off?

PvE is nowhere near as laggy and unstable as PvP probably more than 90% of the time. Would be nice to have better server performance in trials and dungeons. Still either way even if ZoS did put you in a template build it won't mean much towards completion. I have a build where players are showing 110K DPS on a dummy and using that same build I'm lucky to push 60K. Just having the template won't mean much if your rotation isn't on point.
And for the most part the PvP crowd wants to be able to use all their available builds and sets. They want more diversity than what Vengeance provides.

All I’m asking for is for the dev team to bring Vengeance to PvE, since it’s saved Cyrodiil from lag.

Being in an even playing field with endgame PvErs is just a bonus.

If you recognice it saved Cyrodiil from Lag maybe you should write that in discussions about Vengeance in Cyrodiil rather than complain you hate it.

SneaK wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I won't comment on the PvP side of things since I do not PvP, but let's not pretend that this thread is anything other than a "we might suffer so they should too" type of thread.

As was mentioned in one of the posts above, this is a direct response to the recent Vengeance thread and to the concern that Scenario #2 is the future of PvP.

Bingo. It's a non-starter anyway because PvE does not have anywhere close to the performance issues of Cyrodiil. And PvP players have been making it clear for years that fixing performance should be their top priority. They tried for years to do just that so it's not surprising that their tests revealed that certain solutions simply aren't feasible.

Suffer? I’d like the option to have access to a better performing game in PvE and ZOS has the answer.

It's disingenuous to compare the performance of the two. PvE works fine compared to Cyrodiil. A small cut isn't the same as a broken leg even if both are injuries. And performance issues in Cyrodiil have been far more disruptive than PvE.

Again, I lag worse in PvE than anywhere. Just because you have a different opinion does not void my experience. And I don’t understand how it’s disingenuous, people are excited about the Vengeance ruleset cause it solved issues with lag and FPS, how is it a bad thing to start the discussion on improving the other parts of ESO’s performance?

And tell me how performance in Cyro has been more disruptive than PvE? Exactly what is the ranking system on what’s worse? Cause lagging out while standing at a trader in a Wayrest and then getting error coded for 5 mins trying to get back into the game seems up there with having to break free twice from a poorly designed and implemented warden charm.

You were not exited about Vengeance

It’s about performance… I lag in PvE worse than I do in PvP. I have more issues with the server in PvE than I do in PvP. It’s been said it solved a performance problem for PvP that I don’t really have, why not ask for it in PvE where I actually see it as a problem.

Iriidius · December 1

SneaK wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I won't comment on the PvP side of things since I do not PvP, but let's not pretend that this thread is anything other than a "we might suffer so they should too" type of thread.

As was mentioned in one of the posts above, this is a direct response to the recent Vengeance thread and to the concern that Scenario #2 is the future of PvP.

Bingo. It's a non-starter anyway because PvE does not have anywhere close to the performance issues of Cyrodiil. And PvP players have been making it clear for years that fixing performance should be their top priority. They tried for years to do just that so it's not surprising that their tests revealed that certain solutions simply aren't feasible.

Suffer? I’d like the option to have access to a better performing game in PvE and ZOS has the answer.

It's disingenuous to compare the performance of the two. PvE works fine compared to Cyrodiil. A small cut isn't the same as a broken leg even if both are injuries. And performance issues in Cyrodiil have been far more disruptive than PvE.

Again, I lag worse in PvE than anywhere. Just because you have a different opinion does not void my experience. And I don’t understand how it’s disingenuous, people are excited about the Vengeance ruleset cause it solved issues with lag and FPS, how is it a bad thing to start the discussion on improving the other parts of ESO’s performance?

And tell me how performance in Cyro has been more disruptive than PvE? Exactly what is the ranking system on what’s worse? Cause lagging out while standing at a trader in a Wayrest and then getting error coded for 5 mins trying to get back into the game seems up there with having to break free twice from a poorly designed and implemented warden charm.

You were not exited about Vengeance

LPapirius wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Lmao now see, THIS is bait, but I agree.

Typically anything people disagree with on these forums can be considered bait. But you agree so you obviously understand where I’m coming from.

It is bait because you hate Vengeance in PvP and therefore it is very unlikely you like it in PvE and suggest it for other reason than to spite PvE players you blame for Vengeance.

Funny thing is most players supporting Vengeance are neither Trial players who probably would or already did join ballgroup to PvP nor VMA/Vateshran/IA scorerunners or Dungeon Healer/Tank/DD who if they can get good Solo/Healer/Tank/DD build in PvE can also get Duell/1vX/Tank/HealerGank/ build for PvP but casual players not having build, competitive PvPers wanting fair fights, former Pvper having left for problems Vengeance solved and current PvPers not in premade so you try to spite the wrong players.

SneaK wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Lag and gear are completely separate. The tests in Cyrodiil are all about server performance not player performance. There is some lag in trials and other similar content and it would be nice if that could be fixed. If you can't do the content now though you probably wouldn't be able to do it with a template.
Nothing requires 100k DPS to finish. If all DPS in the group can average 30K DPS and the group understands the mechanics you can make it through all content. You aren't going to make the leader boards but you can do the content.
Vengeance doesn't mean all of a sudden you are going to be competitive in PvP even if you have the same gear. Part of the problem with PvP is all the calculations that have to be made with cross heals, multiple AOE and all kinds of other stuff. Trials are limited to 12 players while PvP can have much more than that. PvP has many more calculations to make.
PvE could probably (I'm guessing) be helped with less effects going off?

PvE is nowhere near as laggy and unstable as PvP probably more than 90% of the time. Would be nice to have better server performance in trials and dungeons. Still either way even if ZoS did put you in a template build it won't mean much towards completion. I have a build where players are showing 110K DPS on a dummy and using that same build I'm lucky to push 60K. Just having the template won't mean much if your rotation isn't on point.
And for the most part the PvP crowd wants to be able to use all their available builds and sets. They want more diversity than what Vengeance provides.

All I’m asking for is for the dev team to bring Vengeance to PvE, since it’s saved Cyrodiil from lag.

Being in an even playing field with endgame PvErs is just a bonus.

If you recognice it saved Cyrodiil from Lag maybe you should write that in discussions about Vengeance in Cyrodiil rather than complain you hate it.

SneaK wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I won't comment on the PvP side of things since I do not PvP, but let's not pretend that this thread is anything other than a "we might suffer so they should too" type of thread.

As was mentioned in one of the posts above, this is a direct response to the recent Vengeance thread and to the concern that Scenario #2 is the future of PvP.

Bingo. It's a non-starter anyway because PvE does not have anywhere close to the performance issues of Cyrodiil. And PvP players have been making it clear for years that fixing performance should be their top priority. They tried for years to do just that so it's not surprising that their tests revealed that certain solutions simply aren't feasible.

Suffer? I’d like the option to have access to a better performing game in PvE and ZOS has the answer.

It's disingenuous to compare the performance of the two. PvE works fine compared to Cyrodiil. A small cut isn't the same as a broken leg even if both are injuries. And performance issues in Cyrodiil have been far more disruptive than PvE.

Again, I lag worse in PvE than anywhere. Just because you have a different opinion does not void my experience. And I don’t understand how it’s disingenuous, people are excited about the Vengeance ruleset cause it solved issues with lag and FPS, how is it a bad thing to start the discussion on improving the other parts of ESO’s performance?

And tell me how performance in Cyro has been more disruptive than PvE? Exactly what is the ranking system on what’s worse? Cause lagging out while standing at a trader in a Wayrest and then getting error coded for 5 mins trying to get back into the game seems up there with having to break free twice from a poorly designed and implemented warden charm.

You were not exited about Vengeance

If you're so against vengeance for PvE, why are you so supportive of it for PvP when you don't even play PvP?

It is, in fact, primarily PvE casuals pushing for vengeance. And it's the same very small subset of posters promoting it.

Vengeance DID NOT stop the lag problem. The last version of vengeance had a much lower population than normal live Cyrodiil and about the same performance. In other words, vengeance did not fix anything for anyone. Vengeance might solve some internal issue at ZOS, but it does nothing for the player base.

PvE is not competitive outside scorepushing and hardcore PvE guilds. There is no competition or fight between you and other players. The flawless conqueror or Trialgroup wont attack you on sight because you or the randoms near you because you have bad builds or your builds are not coordinated with group (when they probably would have avoided you if you had same buil.
But I am not against vengeance for PvE, I just doubt that your suggestion for PvE Vengeance is genuine or anything other than revenge for PvP getting vengeance. You hate it in PvP and even claim performance didnt improve so why would you want it in PvE?

And I have 4 grand overlords and played PvP daily for years. With build template I could have won many fights when I started PvPing that I lost despite outplaying other players because of worse build. Now that I know how to make good solobuild time of soloplay and PUGvPUG is over and you need premade with groupbuilds to compete in Cyrodiil.

It is definitely not the same subset promoting PvE Vengeance as PvP Vengeance, you are against PvP Vengeance but promote it in PvE to spite PvE and maybe rally them against PvP Vengeance.

Vengeance definitely had higher population and less lag even in 3rd iteration and ZOS confirmed it but arguing with you about that doesnt make sense because only numbers you accept as fact are your own.

SneaK · December 1

LPapirius wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

salander7 wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

So suddenly Vengeance is no good if it is on the other foot? (PvE)
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

It is no good for pvp either, but pve players have chosen other battles when it comes to topics. Pvp players have complained, but I guess they're not vocal enough.
The main excuse for vengeance are performance related issues, which may be around, but given how cyrodiil has not always been terrible performance wise, there may be other situations where it works as it still is. Maybe they don't want to commit resources, maybe they don't have them, maybe the pvp playerbase is not big enough to be worth the effort. I don't know.
While that debate can be held, I've yet to see a pvp player excited about vengeance. The first test was something some people were curious about.
After it was clear it was butchering the gameplay, I haven't heard any pvp player wishing for it. Other people do have heard so, in fact apparently every pvp player but the ones I've talked about this with are super excited, according to some comments. Taking them with a grain of salt.

The only thing I can tell you is vengeance has deterred me from playing cyro whenever it's been up. However, I haven't played more than 5h of pvp since subclassing came around in pvp, so they may as well delete the mode for what I care about it these days, but that doesn't make it a good decision.
Saying this as a mainly pve player, and while pvp is not my main activity, that has gotten a char to pvp rank 50, another to rank 40ish and another to rank 30ish. I wanted to get them both to rank 45ish, but I guess it won't happen.

Edit: typo

Vengeance mode is already killing live Cyrodiil. Fewer and fewer PvP mains return after every test. And now we know live Cyrodiil is living on borrowed time and almost certainly has less than a year left before it's shut down.

[snip]

[Edit for Petitions and Protests]

I've noticed this too. With every instance of mandated vengeance fewer and fewer people return to PvP. Maybe they're PvE'ing, but more likely they just left the game because they see the writing on the wall and they'll, like me, never play any version of vengeance going forward.

Great discussion, valid responses to the situation going on over in that space of the game. However, that isn’t the topic here and I sure wouldn’t want your feedback to get missed cause I know the dev team is reading all of it, I’d suggest moving your PvP centric discussion to a better related thread. This one is about bring Vengeance (ruleset) to PvE.

Thanks

Apologies for not expanding more on my comment. I framed my comments in terms of vengeance/PvP because that's the issue we're facing now. It's true that performance in trials and some vet dungeons is comparable to PvP performance, so PvE needs vengeance mode at least as much as PvP does. No argument there.

My point is nobody wants templated ESO, PvP or PvE. (outside of ZOS and their white knights anyway) ZOS wouldn't have a game if ESO was templated across the board and I'm pretty sure if they mandate vengeance in PvP the whole game will be dead within a year and they'll just shut down the game entirely at that point.

Ah yes, I see the relation now. Certainly they wouldn’t do that, but, if it fixes performance and that’s the number one complaint……. which that said, performance updates/systems should be game wide.

SneaK · December 1

Iriidius wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I won't comment on the PvP side of things since I do not PvP, but let's not pretend that this thread is anything other than a "we might suffer so they should too" type of thread.

As was mentioned in one of the posts above, this is a direct response to the recent Vengeance thread and to the concern that Scenario #2 is the future of PvP.

Bingo. It's a non-starter anyway because PvE does not have anywhere close to the performance issues of Cyrodiil. And PvP players have been making it clear for years that fixing performance should be their top priority. They tried for years to do just that so it's not surprising that their tests revealed that certain solutions simply aren't feasible.

Suffer? I’d like the option to have access to a better performing game in PvE and ZOS has the answer.

It's disingenuous to compare the performance of the two. PvE works fine compared to Cyrodiil. A small cut isn't the same as a broken leg even if both are injuries. And performance issues in Cyrodiil have been far more disruptive than PvE.

Again, I lag worse in PvE than anywhere. Just because you have a different opinion does not void my experience. And I don’t understand how it’s disingenuous, people are excited about the Vengeance ruleset cause it solved issues with lag and FPS, how is it a bad thing to start the discussion on improving the other parts of ESO’s performance?

And tell me how performance in Cyro has been more disruptive than PvE? Exactly what is the ranking system on what’s worse? Cause lagging out while standing at a trader in a Wayrest and then getting error coded for 5 mins trying to get back into the game seems up there with having to break free twice from a poorly designed and implemented warden charm.

You were not exited about Vengeance

LPapirius wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Lmao now see, THIS is bait, but I agree.

Typically anything people disagree with on these forums can be considered bait. But you agree so you obviously understand where I’m coming from.

It is bait because you hate Vengeance in PvP and therefore it is very unlikely you like it in PvE and suggest it for other reason than to spite PvE players you blame for Vengeance.

Funny thing is most players supporting Vengeance are neither Trial players who probably would or already did join ballgroup to PvP nor VMA/Vateshran/IA scorerunners or Dungeon Healer/Tank/DD who if they can get good Solo/Healer/Tank/DD build in PvE can also get Duell/1vX/Tank/HealerGank/ build for PvP but casual players not having build, competitive PvPers wanting fair fights, former Pvper having left for problems Vengeance solved and current PvPers not in premade so you try to spite the wrong players.

SneaK wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Lag and gear are completely separate. The tests in Cyrodiil are all about server performance not player performance. There is some lag in trials and other similar content and it would be nice if that could be fixed. If you can't do the content now though you probably wouldn't be able to do it with a template.
Nothing requires 100k DPS to finish. If all DPS in the group can average 30K DPS and the group understands the mechanics you can make it through all content. You aren't going to make the leader boards but you can do the content.
Vengeance doesn't mean all of a sudden you are going to be competitive in PvP even if you have the same gear. Part of the problem with PvP is all the calculations that have to be made with cross heals, multiple AOE and all kinds of other stuff. Trials are limited to 12 players while PvP can have much more than that. PvP has many more calculations to make.
PvE could probably (I'm guessing) be helped with less effects going off?

PvE is nowhere near as laggy and unstable as PvP probably more than 90% of the time. Would be nice to have better server performance in trials and dungeons. Still either way even if ZoS did put you in a template build it won't mean much towards completion. I have a build where players are showing 110K DPS on a dummy and using that same build I'm lucky to push 60K. Just having the template won't mean much if your rotation isn't on point.
And for the most part the PvP crowd wants to be able to use all their available builds and sets. They want more diversity than what Vengeance provides.

All I’m asking for is for the dev team to bring Vengeance to PvE, since it’s saved Cyrodiil from lag.

Being in an even playing field with endgame PvErs is just a bonus.

If you recognice it saved Cyrodiil from Lag maybe you should write that in discussions about Vengeance in Cyrodiil rather than complain you hate it.

SneaK wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

I won't comment on the PvP side of things since I do not PvP, but let's not pretend that this thread is anything other than a "we might suffer so they should too" type of thread.

As was mentioned in one of the posts above, this is a direct response to the recent Vengeance thread and to the concern that Scenario #2 is the future of PvP.

Bingo. It's a non-starter anyway because PvE does not have anywhere close to the performance issues of Cyrodiil. And PvP players have been making it clear for years that fixing performance should be their top priority. They tried for years to do just that so it's not surprising that their tests revealed that certain solutions simply aren't feasible.

Suffer? I’d like the option to have access to a better performing game in PvE and ZOS has the answer.

It's disingenuous to compare the performance of the two. PvE works fine compared to Cyrodiil. A small cut isn't the same as a broken leg even if both are injuries. And performance issues in Cyrodiil have been far more disruptive than PvE.

Again, I lag worse in PvE than anywhere. Just because you have a different opinion does not void my experience. And I don’t understand how it’s disingenuous, people are excited about the Vengeance ruleset cause it solved issues with lag and FPS, how is it a bad thing to start the discussion on improving the other parts of ESO’s performance?

And tell me how performance in Cyro has been more disruptive than PvE? Exactly what is the ranking system on what’s worse? Cause lagging out while standing at a trader in a Wayrest and then getting error coded for 5 mins trying to get back into the game seems up there with having to break free twice from a poorly designed and implemented warden charm.

You were not exited about Vengeance

If you're so against vengeance for PvE, why are you so supportive of it for PvP when you don't even play PvP?

It is, in fact, primarily PvE casuals pushing for vengeance. And it's the same very small subset of posters promoting it.

Vengeance DID NOT stop the lag problem. The last version of vengeance had a much lower population than normal live Cyrodiil and about the same performance. In other words, vengeance did not fix anything for anyone. Vengeance might solve some internal issue at ZOS, but it does nothing for the player base.

PvE is not competitive outside scorepushing and hardcore PvE guilds. There is no competition or fight between you and other players. The flawless conqueror or Trialgroup wont attack you on sight because you or the randoms near you because you have bad builds or your builds are not coordinated with group (when they probably would have avoided you if you had same buil.
But I am not against vengeance for PvE, I just doubt that your suggestion for PvE Vengeance is genuine or anything other than revenge for PvP getting vengeance. You hate it in PvP and even claim performance didnt improve so why would you want it in PvE?

And I have 4 grand overlords and played PvP daily for years. With build template I could have won many fights when I started PvPing that I lost despite outplaying other players because of worse build. Now that I know how to make good solobuild time of soloplay and PUGvPUG is over and you need premade with groupbuilds to compete in Cyrodiil.

It is definitely not the same subset promoting PvE Vengeance as PvP Vengeance, you are against PvP Vengeance but promote it in PvE to spite PvE and maybe rally them against PvP Vengeance.

Vengeance definitely had higher population and less lag even in 3rd iteration and ZOS confirmed it but arguing with you about that doesnt make sense because only numbers you accept as fact are your own.

Not sure if you were responding to me..

But here’s a thought: (Purely Hypothetical)

Door 1:
Avid PvE player, casual or entry level PvP player. This person has every set they need through trials, dungeons, etc. Experiences lag in trials/dungeons/etc but at the end of the day they get their completions/gear so they can live with it.

They go into GH with their PvE build, or even an off meta build they found online. They lose their first 5 fights getting farmed by someone outside Nikel. Then the Zerg shows up and they follow them to Ash, get in a big fight where they see some buggy breakfrees from a poorly designed Warden charm. They die at the front door cause they couldn’t break free in time, and never get res’d because they’re under oil. Their faction folds, they sit there for 5 minutes before respawning at the base and leaving.

Door 2:
Avid PvP player, casual PvE’r only does it for PvP builds. They queue up for Cyro in a meta build, or a competitive off meta 1%er. They don’t see that much lag while they cut players off at Alesia bridge, they win 90% of their fights there. Their last emp keep pops, so they go defend. They kill 10-20 players in a big 3way battle, there is lag but they never died and their faction successfully defended.

They have trouble finding a trial group, finally do so they can try to get null arca. They make it through halfway, one lags out. They replace him/her with another, go through the next 25%, two more lag out, it’s going on hour 2 and the group just disbands. This player decides they want Sheer Venom, queues into dungeon with XYZ players. They make it through to the Abomination, where they incur lag that prevents them from using the grenades. X quits, then Y quits.

Whats more important?

ZOS_Icy · December 1

Greetings,

We have removed some insulting back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team

SaffronCitrusflower · December 1

If vengeance is the solution for performance issues in PvP then it absolutely should be the solution for performance in trials and vet dungeons.

Besides, no reason to even have sets when everything is templated. So may as well make the whole game templated.

fizzybeef · December 2

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler can we please have Vengeance for trials and dungeons ?

I have such a bad performance, it makes me wanan throw my keyboard arround

Heronisan · December 2

Im gonna need to see recordings of these common performance issues in PvE, in dungeons and trials.

I have 1847 veteran dungeons completed on xbox series X, not 1 single time have my fps ever dropped on performance mode. It runs flawless every dungeon i play. Skills fire when they should. Nothing

Orbital78 · December 2

Oh they so mad they wanna pvp pve.

JustLovely · December 2

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

If vengeance is the solution for performance issues in PvP then it absolutely should be the solution for performance in trials and vet dungeons.

Besides, no reason to even have sets when everything is templated. So may as well make the whole game templated.

No reason the whole game shouldn't be templated at this point.

SneaK · December 2

Heronisan wrote: »

Im gonna need to see recordings of these common performance issues in PvE, in dungeons and trials.

I have 1847 veteran dungeons completed on xbox series X, not 1 single time have my fps ever dropped on performance mode. It runs flawless every dungeon i play. Skills fire when they should. Nothing

That’s Awesome!

Only if they could mimic your performance for the rest of us, which I think Vengeance ruleset could do!

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · December 2

Well you got your wish with the class reworks incoming :P

SneaK · December 2

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Well you got your wish with the class reworks incoming :P

That’s not my wish! I play a pure Stamblade more than anything else. I don’t have much confidence in the changes they’ll make. Especially reading the “range” part of it. I don’t like spamming a bow.

My wish, is that they bring Vengeance to PvE.

amiiegee · December 3

Melivar wrote: »

There are no real PVE performance issues in 4 or 12 player instanced content that are game related. Mostly those would be addon or hardware related issues.

While these same things are also a hinderance in PVP it is a much wider issue overall in Cyro.

Case in point I never had any issues with instanced PVE but did have several issues with overland PVE and all PVP on an older laptop. When it died and I upgraded I still had no issues in instanced PVE or overland PVE and much less in PVP outside of larger scale battles.

Now i have a failing hard drive and the Overland PVE and PVP issues are back again but still have had no real issues in instanced PVE. I know it is a hardware issue and not an internet or addon issue because if I log into my stream deck I am back to just having problems in PVP related content only and yes I have all the same addon for the steam deck.

For everyone sake I hope that the stick to having both Gray Host and Vengeance as play options and they continue to work on balancing things for the Gray Host campaign.

I lag always in trials and dungeons tbf. Whenever all the beams are going off.

Orbital78 · December 3

amiiegee wrote: »

Melivar wrote: »

There are no real PVE performance issues in 4 or 12 player instanced content that are game related. Mostly those would be addon or hardware related issues.

While these same things are also a hinderance in PVP it is a much wider issue overall in Cyro.

Case in point I never had any issues with instanced PVE but did have several issues with overland PVE and all PVP on an older laptop. When it died and I upgraded I still had no issues in instanced PVE or overland PVE and much less in PVP outside of larger scale battles.

Now i have a failing hard drive and the Overland PVE and PVP issues are back again but still have had no real issues in instanced PVE. I know it is a hardware issue and not an internet or addon issue because if I log into my stream deck I am back to just having problems in PVP related content only and yes I have all the same addon for the steam deck.

For everyone sake I hope that the stick to having both Gray Host and Vengeance as play options and they continue to work on balancing things for the Gray Host campaign.

I lag always in trials and dungeons tbf. Whenever all the beams are going off.

There is a difference between system lag and server lag. But this whole thread is bait and we know it.

Lucasl402 · December 3

Orbital78 wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

Melivar wrote: »

There are no real PVE performance issues in 4 or 12 player instanced content that are game related. Mostly those would be addon or hardware related issues.

While these same things are also a hinderance in PVP it is a much wider issue overall in Cyro.

Case in point I never had any issues with instanced PVE but did have several issues with overland PVE and all PVP on an older laptop. When it died and I upgraded I still had no issues in instanced PVE or overland PVE and much less in PVP outside of larger scale battles.

Now i have a failing hard drive and the Overland PVE and PVP issues are back again but still have had no real issues in instanced PVE. I know it is a hardware issue and not an internet or addon issue because if I log into my stream deck I am back to just having problems in PVP related content only and yes I have all the same addon for the steam deck.

For everyone sake I hope that the stick to having both Gray Host and Vengeance as play options and they continue to work on balancing things for the Gray Host campaign.

I lag always in trials and dungeons tbf. Whenever all the beams are going off.

There is a difference between system lag and server lag. But this whole thread is bait and we know it.

I don't think it's bait. Performance in trails and vet dungeons is on par with Cyrodiil. Same problems for the same reasons. So why not the same fix?

Heronisan · December 3

SneaK wrote: »

Heronisan wrote: »

Im gonna need to see recordings of these common performance issues in PvE, in dungeons and trials.

I have 1847 veteran dungeons completed on xbox series X, not 1 single time have my fps ever dropped on performance mode. It runs flawless every dungeon i play. Skills fire when they should. Nothing

That’s Awesome!

Only if they could mimic your performance for the rest of us, which I think Vengeance ruleset could do!

No, an xbox series X put on performance mode would do that.

There is no reason it shouldnt work for anyone else since its the exact same hardware.

I understand the point u are trying to make, but claiming dungeons have widespread performance issues is so untrue it sort of ruins ur point. I cant remember seeing much in trials either, i have alot of friends with the latest trial trifectas, and i have never heard them say their runs have been ruined by performance here on console.

But what do u want zos to do? They straight out said the cant fix cyrodiil performance on live, its not gonna happen, are u against their suggestion of having 1 vengeance campaign and a smaller scale cyrodiil? How is this not the best of 2 worlds?

ESO_player123 · December 3

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Orbital78 wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

Melivar wrote: »

There are no real PVE performance issues in 4 or 12 player instanced content that are game related. Mostly those would be addon or hardware related issues.

While these same things are also a hinderance in PVP it is a much wider issue overall in Cyro.

Case in point I never had any issues with instanced PVE but did have several issues with overland PVE and all PVP on an older laptop. When it died and I upgraded I still had no issues in instanced PVE or overland PVE and much less in PVP outside of larger scale battles.

Now i have a failing hard drive and the Overland PVE and PVP issues are back again but still have had no real issues in instanced PVE. I know it is a hardware issue and not an internet or addon issue because if I log into my stream deck I am back to just having problems in PVP related content only and yes I have all the same addon for the steam deck.

For everyone sake I hope that the stick to having both Gray Host and Vengeance as play options and they continue to work on balancing things for the Gray Host campaign.

I lag always in trials and dungeons tbf. Whenever all the beams are going off.

There is a difference between system lag and server lag. But this whole thread is bait and we know it.

I don't think it's bait. Performance in trails and vet dungeons is on par with Cyrodiil. Same problems for the same reasons. So why not the same fix?

It is bait (albeit a careful one). If you look at when this thread was posted (exactly when they announced options 1 and 2 for Cyrodill), read the general tone of the supporting posts, and read the most recent posts of the supporting players (none of them want Vengeance in PvP), it kind of becomes obvious (regardless of the performance problems people are experiencing in high end PvE).