Subclassing Appreciation

Radiate77 · November 18

Hope everyone’s having a great day, just wanted to say thanks to the team for this incredible system.

Since it’s introduction, our guild has been able to help bring people through their first hard mode trials, with unique builds that make the content more forgiving than ever.

One such example being a Templar or Warden healer, and a Dragonknight or Arcanist tank, now having the ability to revive players still learning the mechanics by throwing on Living Death to use a Necromancer ultimate.

Trials have never been more inviting!
And it’s not just PvE.

I have seen more creativity than ever in Battlegrounds. Playing a ranged build? You now have access to Streak and/or Cloak! Tired of getting blasted by said ranged builds? Counter them with Dragon Fire Scales or Crystalized Slab. Assassination is overtuned, but you know what? Good luck touching someone sitting in a Shifting Standard! We finally have checks and balances, and although some skill lines do need love, it’s nice to finally have some diversity of encounters.

I see new, never thought possible, builds daily.
So thank you, ZOS.

Erickson9610 · November 18

Subclassing is a good system, and I'm glad everyone gets to have it as part of the base game. Though, with Scribing and then Subclassing back-to-back, I hope next year's major feature isn't combat-related.

SneaK · November 18

Actually can’t tell if satire or not…. can determine 100% bait though.

Radiate77 · November 18

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Subclassing is a good system, and I'm glad everyone gets to have it as part of the base game. Though, with Scribing and then Subclassing back-to-back, I hope next year's major feature isn't combat-related.

I’m in a different camp, I’d love to see Scribing get some more attention as part of the base game, and another DLC class. I want to know how new classes are going to be handled with Subclassing.

Destai · November 18

For all its faults, I really do like it. It's just unfortunate we're stuck in this limbo where pure classes aren't as powerful by comparison. It and scribing are both really strong features, IMO. Subclassing just shines light on some skills that were underperforming as a whole.

Erickson9610 · November 18

Radiate77 wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Subclassing is a good system, and I'm glad everyone gets to have it as part of the base game. Though, with Scribing and then Subclassing back-to-back, I hope next year's major feature isn't combat-related.

I’m in a different camp, I’d love to see Scribing get some more attention as part of the base game, and another DLC class. I want to know how new classes are going to be handled with Subclassing.

I suppose since Subclassing is here, new Classes would be worthwhile to every type of player — both those who stick to one character and to those who want a new Class to experience on a new character. And of course I want to see Scribing get more Grimoires and Scripts.

Still, we've been getting a lot of combat-related features lately. We had three years of "systems" — Antiquities, Companions, and Tales of Tribute — then three years of "combat features" — the Arcanist Class, Scribing, and Subclassing.

I'm not entirely sure what new, exciting individual skill lines (like Psijic Order) or Classes could be added that would stand out from all of these other abilities we have. A new weapon line wouldn't necessarily create any new ways to play that we don't already have, but it would at least warrant a new Grimoire.

Radiate77 · November 18

Destai wrote: »

For all its faults, I really do like it. It's just unfortunate we're stuck in this limbo where pure classes aren't as powerful by comparison. It and scribing are both really strong features, IMO. Subclassing just shines light on some skills that were underperforming as a whole.

See, I wonder how they are going to handle this.

There’s no denying that for classes like Sorcerer who have Dark Magic natively, to not subclass away for a standard DPS build, you miss out on a lot.

Maybe the answer is to just make underused Subclasses more appealing? Adjusting passives would be a good way to start.

AcadianPaladin · November 18

I really enjoy the subclassing system and it's made my game quite a bit more fun.

LukosCreyden · November 18

I love playing a ranged mage but didn't lo e Sorc pets. Now, I run Storm Calling, Dawn's Wrath and Siphoning for a nice spellslinger. Chuck in some scribing skills and boom. Very fun build and it devours most things I try to solo (not quite made it to first boss of nMoL solo yet, but am improving.)

gary.mcleodeb17_ESO · November 18

I was troubled and slightly worried about Subclassing. However, a consequence of subclassing and as a mainly solo player, I've been able to explore build diversity in so many ways I never thought possible, some builds I have really taken to, others not so much. As a player with all classes, I really enjoy the Necromancer/Sorcerer/Warden builds I have tried, some I continue to enjoy playing with, others just didn't work out for me. Whilst I have tried a variety of builds based on content creators guidance and suggestions, (Thank you to all those involved) I have also been able to enjoy my own creations with some success. I was once described as an 'average Joe' type player by some friends who were doing the hard stuff, I guess I still am. 14 years later, still logging in and enjoying my game. They moved on, I miss them. I hoped subclassing might create some interest in returning, sadly not.

AvalonRanger · November 18

Subclassing is a good system... Yes I think so for the character building aspect.

But, consider role playing aspect. This is another worst system which ZOS did.

Because we lost personality of characters. Appearance, and combat styles.
Everyone do "beam" "assassination" and "jab". It's BORING as RPG.

Radiate77 · November 18

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Subclassing is a good system... Yes I think so for the character building aspect.

But, consider role playing aspect. This is another worst system which ZOS did.

Because we lost personality of characters. Appearance, and combat styles.
Everyone do "beam" "assassination" and "jab". It's BORING as RPG.

That is entirely a choice, yes.

Radiate77 · November 19

LukosCreyden wrote: »

I love playing a ranged mage but didn't lo e Sorc pets. Now, I run Storm Calling, Dawn's Wrath and Siphoning for a nice spellslinger. Chuck in some scribing skills and boom. Very fun build and it devours most things I try to solo (not quite made it to first boss of nMoL solo yet, but am improving.)

That sounds like a lot of fun, one of the new builds I made, was a PvP one that is running Ardent Flame, Dawn’s Wrath, and Draconic Power.

When I made my MagDK years ago, I’ve always envisioned my character as a fire mage, and now after so many years I feel like he’s there.

Going from spamming Flame Clench to Fiery Soul, and having access to Sun Fire, Living Dark, and Radiant Oppression has finally made the playstyle possible, and not just possible… viable.

Area denial builds are finally possible, being able to use the HoT from Living Dark allows the build to stand it’s ground like a Templar from inside of my Wall of Elements and Ash Cloud, and being able to tag people with Reflective Light while I weave Fiery Souls at them as they try to run away is extremely satisfying, and if they’re ranged? Well, that’s what Wings are for. I have lost track of how many Assassination users have blown themselves up trying to hit me with a Spec Bow.

And don’t even get me started on Shifting Standard. That DoT is crazy, but having the increase to your damage dealt while standing inside of it? Chef’s kiss.

BardokRedSnow · November 19

SneaK wrote: »

Actually can’t tell if satire or not…. can determine 100% bait though.

From my brief time paying attention to this place, I can see that anything one might disagree with is considered bait here.

I would still have preferred Subclassing be introduced differently but there's always time to address what I believe needs to be, for instance there needs to be incentive or good reason to pure class vs subclass, class mastery should be a more viable thing in the future, whereas subclassing should be looked at imo the same way scribing is, to augment people's preferred builds rather than outright replace them.

Something like allowing us to customize certain class abilities and maybe have them only be available if pure classed I think would be fair.

But in any case, whatever they do, I have come around a bit more now that I've had time to play with it. It has raised the power creep but we've been there before. As long as they work to try and maintain what eso was while also keeping and improving these systems, I think it'll be good for the game in the future, at least from a pvp aspect.

For PvE I dunno what they should do aside from I guess nerf beams. Perhaps offering scribable skills for pure classes could also improve the sameness of pve right now for dps. Beams beams beams definitely doesn't make me wanna do trials.

karthrag_inak · November 19

Khajiit is delighted to agree with the OP. So many fun and even sometimes ridiculous combinations he has on some of his characters. A favorite is this one's traveling Sorc-us, with every combat and proc pet available, along with blastbones, bear and both sorc pets. whee!

Radiate77 · November 19

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit is delighted to agree with the OP. So many fun and even sometimes ridiculous combinations he has on some of his characters. A favorite is this one's traveling Sorc-us, with every combat and proc pet available, along with blastbones, bear and both sorc pets. whee!

I’ve been meaning to make a pet build, if you had to say based on your time running it, where does the build perform best?

PvE or PvP?
Solo? Small Scale? Large Scale?

karthrag_inak · November 19

/

Radiate77 wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit is delighted to agree with the OP. So many fun and even sometimes ridiculous combinations he has on some of his characters. A favorite is this one's traveling Sorc-us, with every combat and proc pet available, along with blastbones, bear and both sorc pets. whee!

I’ve been meaning to make a pet build, if you had to say based on your time running it, where does the build perform best?

PvE or PvP?
Solo? Small Scale? Large Scale?

it is equally mediocre on all levels, but that is not the point. Khajiit has 19 khajiit and 1 argonian with fluffy delusions, all maxed out with skill points, skill lines, cp, gear, etc, 3 of every class except 2 arcanits. A few shenanigans-oriented characters that are more about RP than optimisation are quite fun.

The sorc-us has been fun and useful in IC, though, and soloing dungeons and IA is a lot less stressful. But then again, can you really call it soloing with an entourage?

SneaK · November 19

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Actually can’t tell if satire or not…. can determine 100% bait though.

From my brief time paying attention to this place, I can see that anything one might disagree with is considered bait here.

I would still have preferred Subclassing be introduced differently but there's always time to address what I believe needs to be, for instance there needs to be incentive or good reason to pure class vs subclass, class mastery should be a more viable thing in the future, whereas subclassing should be looked at imo the same way scribing is, to augment people's preferred builds rather than outright replace them.

Something like allowing us to customize certain class abilities and maybe have them only be available if pure classed I think would be fair.

But in any case, whatever they do, I have come around a bit more now that I've had time to play with it. It has raised the power creep but we've been there before. As long as they work to try and maintain what eso was while also keeping and improving these systems, I think it'll be good for the game in the future, at least from a pvp aspect.

For PvE I dunno what they should do aside from I guess nerf beams. Perhaps offering scribable skills for pure classes could also improve the sameness of pve right now for dps. Beams beams beams definitely doesn't make me wanna do trials.

Again, can’t tell if satire.

We’ve never ever been this far apart.

The systems introduced demolished what ESO was and they haven’t done any tweaking to balance since subclassing was introduced.

If these are in fact satire, yall got me.

The only argument I see with Subclassing is, “it’s fun”. Here’s a comparison only a few will understand. NFL Blitz on N64, it was an awesome game. Then you learned the cheat code for infinite sprint, you literally couldn’t play the game without it. If whoever you played against didn’t get their code in on time before the game started, y’all quit and started again. ZOS never should have rolled it out, they probably can’t close the book on it now even though they should. There’s a lot of us who can rightfully be bitter about it cause it blew the game up, and likely forever which is hinted at ZOS’s silence or ambiguous Vengeance tests or surveys.

Radiate77 · November 19

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I really enjoy the subclassing system and it's made my game quite a bit more fun.

1,000%

Gabriel_H · November 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

e such example being a Templar or Warden healer, and a Dragonknight or Arcanist tank, now having the ability to revive players still learning the mechanics by throwing on Living Death to use a Necromancer ultimate.

Would they have died if the tanks and healers were specced for tanking and healing? Just something to consider.

Gabriel_H · November 19

SneaK wrote: »

The only argument I see with Subclassing is, “it’s fun”.

The argument is this: In Low/Medium-end content it changes the number of viable builds from 1,000 to 5,000 per role.
The problem is this: In High-end content it changes the number of viable builds from 5 to 1 per role.

Edit: The latter being an unintended consquence that was forseeable for everyone who runs high-end, but doesn't seem to have been for ZOS, despite them being explicitly told so before release to Live.

Radiate77 · November 19

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

e such example being a Templar or Warden healer, and a Dragonknight or Arcanist tank, now having the ability to revive players still learning the mechanics by throwing on Living Death to use a Necromancer ultimate.

Would they have died if the tanks and healers were specced for tanking and healing? Just something to consider.

Usually if new guys are dying in our trial runs, they’re dying to mechanics. You can’t heal 1-shot, you can’t tank cleave.

Living Death is a Healing skill line it is also a Tank skill line. Not quite sure what you’re going for with this comment.

Necrotech_Master · November 19

i enjoy the subclassing as well, i feel like i can finally tweak characters to not feel like utter garbage because we are forced to use garbage class skill lines

if some of the skill lines were say improved, it would open up more combinations to play around with

in regards to scribing, i think they definitely need to expand that system, it feels very limiting right now as over half of the scribe skills are weapon restricted, and theres only 1 option per weapon (some of which arent very good)

one example i have is vault for the bow, its a neat option for sure, but i sure as heck dont want a gap increaser (since it pushes you away from the target) and would more prefer another type of dot, or a snipe that channels but does more dmg (like the NPCs taking aim)

so i think subclassing is fine to leave as is outside of tweaking balance on a few things, but scribing still needs a lot of expansion to really see more use

Gabriel_H · November 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

Usually if new guys are dying in our trial runs, they’re dying to mechanics. You can’t heal 1-shot, you can’t tank cleave.

Living Death is a Healing skill line it is also a Tank skill line. Not quite sure what you’re going for with this comment.

Depends on why they are being hit with AoE. Learning not to stand in red shouldn't take multiple resses.

It's by no means a tank line. The DLC classes have distinct lines unlike the base classes who have mixed lines - another consideration that wasn't taken into account with the current implementation of sub-classsing.

Radiate77 · November 19

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Usually if new guys are dying in our trial runs, they’re dying to mechanics. You can’t heal 1-shot, you can’t tank cleave.

Living Death is a Healing skill line it is also a Tank skill line. Not quite sure what you’re going for with this comment.

Depends on why they are being hit with AoE. Learning not to stand in red shouldn't take multiple resses.

It's by no means a tank line. The DLC classes have distinct lines unlike the base classes who have mixed lines - another consideration that wasn't taken into account with the current implementation of sub-classsing.

Unnamed 10% free mitigation through ghostly ghost? Definitely a good pick for survivability in encounters like Bahsei HM where you’re not getting pocketed 24/7.

That thing is so OP I made it my forum Avatar.

Gabriel_H · November 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

Unnamed 10% free mitigation through ghostly ghost? Definitely a good pick for survivability in encounters like Bahsei HM where you’re not getting pocketed 24/7.

So your argument has gone from trial newbies to the 2nd hardest fight in the game? Really?!

By the way, it's not 10%. It's 10% of the damage you take, which comes after all other mitigation. A fully buffed tank is mitigating around 97% of non DoT damage and 70% of DoT damage. i.e that 10% takes a 8,000 DoT tick, and turns it into 7,200. Given overhealing in HM trials is around 80%, that 800 makes no substantive difference.

Radiate77 · November 19

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Unnamed 10% free mitigation through ghostly ghost? Definitely a good pick for survivability in encounters like Bahsei HM where you’re not getting pocketed 24/7.

So your argument has gone from trial newbies to the 2nd hardest fight in the game? Really?!

By the way, it's not 10%. It's 10% of the damage you take, which comes after all other mitigation. A fully buffed tank is mitigating around 97% of non DoT damage and 70% of DoT damage. i.e that 10% takes a 8,000 DoT tick, and turns it into 7,200. Given overhealing in HM trials is around 80%, that 800 makes no substantive difference.

Is Rockgrove HM supposed to be difficult content?
With the power of Subclassing, survivability has never been higher.

You say it’s just 800, but it also heals too. In all reality, it adds up throughout the fight and keeps you alive through curse with minimal stress.

Gabriel_H · November 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

Is Rockgrove HM supposed to be difficult content?
With the power of Subclassing, survivability has never been higher.

It's technically lower as DDs are giving up mitigation and healing for more damage - even ZOS noted that. It puts more pressure on the healers and tanks to keep the DDs alive.

Radiate77 wrote: »

You say it’s just 800, but it also heals too. In all reality, it adds up throughout the fight and keeps you alive through curse with minimal stress.

Which brings me back to my original point - what did your DK give up to get that?

Radiate77 · November 19

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Is Rockgrove HM supposed to be difficult content?
With the power of Subclassing, survivability has never been higher.

It's technically lower as DDs are giving up mitigation and healing for more damage - even ZOS noted that. It puts more pressure on the healers and tanks to keep the DDs alive.

This is entirely a choice.

Radiate77 · November 19

What do I know about the hardest content in the game though? I’m just a Subclass enjoyer.

Everyone knows we only pick flowers, right @Gabriel_H?

Gabriel_H · November 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Is Rockgrove HM supposed to be difficult content?
With the power of Subclassing, survivability has never been higher.

It's technically lower as DDs are giving up mitigation and healing for more damage - even ZOS noted that. It puts more pressure on the healers and tanks to keep the DDs alive.

This is entirely a choice.

In very very very few High-end raids.