Would you be okay with Subclassing being rolled back?

Dalsinthus · September 28

Yes. I think it would be best for the game if subclassing was removed.

While they aren’t going to significantly change it, I think subclassing was the biggest mistake in the game’s history. Just like hybridization, it has reduced build diversity in difficult and competitive content. It’s significantly decreased my enjoyment of the game.

StihlReign · September 28

Yes. I think it would be best for the game if subclassing was removed.

Follow other companies. Admit the mistake. Do better. Scrap it. TES6 and Skyrim are subclass games. ESO is ESO. Or ESO is FOMO. It would be nice if ESO devs would develop and devote themselves to all aspects of this game...TES6 fans doubt they're ever getting a game so leaning a multiplayer game so heavily into single player does this franchise a disservice, especially when there's so much left undone, ignored or simply unexplored.

We have tons of guilds in ESO. They could've given us a Zone designed and skinned as 10 different Guild halls by now that I suspect would've been better received than the subclass mess that was dumped on us. Where are the pleasant surprises? Why is it always some mixed review unbalanced mess?

PDarkBHood · September 28

No. Despite any problems with subclassing, I think it's better if it stays and its issues get addressed.

Subclassing has been one of the best additions to the game, a real game changer. I am almost finished leveling up my new Frost Mage, really enjoying it. I just wish we had more Armory slots. I am at 10 right now and I need at least 10 more for all the subclassing plans I have. Please give us more Armory slots!!

Also, don't forget (most of you need constant reminding), you do not have to subclass any of your characters if you do not want to. It is a choice, your choice to subclass.

ApoAlaia · September 28

No. Despite any problems with subclassing, I think it's better if it stays and its issues get addressed.

There are some teething issues - for instance personally I think that all passives that are 'increase the duration of x skills by y seconds' should go, just make the skills last that long and put something interesting on the passive instead - but overall seems like a good addition to the game.

I am hesitant to fill the survey though; the reddit AUA was an eye opener, the devs and I look at the game very differently.

Feels like taking the offer from a Jinn, you know that whatever you ask for is going to be twisted in such fashion that you are going to wish you kept your mouth shut.

Koshka · September 28

Yes. I think it would be best for the game if subclassing was removed.

BretonMage wrote: »

It should have been limited to one skill line. We would still have balance issues, but it would have been easier to balance.

Additionally, it would have retained a sliver of class identity at least. When I subclassed only one line, I still felt like a sorcerer, but now I'm trying out a second subclassed line (which I'm not enjoying and cannot wait to drop), I feel like a mishmash of skill lines. Sure I could make up some kind of story for myself, but it still feels like a mishmash of abilities.

This. I personally really hate the way this subclassing system turned out, but it would've been better if it was limited to just 1 skill line.

Mesite · September 28

Yes. I think it would be best for the game if subclassing was removed.

CoronHR wrote: »

i think the cat's out of the bag and there's no going back.
i just think it's too late

The cat liked it in the bag. It was warm, and it had plenty food.

I liked playing ESO and had lots of toons, who now seem redundant. At the moment I just feed my horses.

I'll have to try subclassing eventually as I realise it won't be reversed.

I had the problem of having to verify my old age - there's a new law in the UK making sure young people don't access stuff they shouldn't, which is a good idea, but I haven't verified yet as I don't trust the technology, so that's stopped me joining groups for dungeons, so I don't need to subclass yet.

tomofhyrule · September 28

PDarkBHood wrote: »

Also, don't forget (most of you need constant reminding), you do not have to subclass any of your characters if you do not want to. It is a choice, your choice to subclass.

Also, don't forget (most of you need constant reminding), if you choose not to Subclass, you have significantly less power and you are not going to effectively contribute to your group in endgame PvE or PvP and will be excluded.

Vulkunne · September 28

No. Despite any problems with subclassing, I think it's better if it stays and its issues get addressed.

PDarkBHood wrote: »

Subclassing has been one of the best additions to the game, a real game changer. I am almost finished leveling up my new Frost Mage, really enjoying it. I just wish we had more Armory slots. I am at 10 right now and I need at least 10 more for all the subclassing plans I have. Please give us more Armory slots!!

Also, don't forget (most of you need constant reminding), you do not have to subclass any of your characters if you do not want to. It is a choice, your choice to subclass.

I completely agree.

Subclass is not 'mistake' its evolution. I encourage ZOS, when they are able, to try and keep regular class balanced, but also please don't blow up subclass.

Subclass as a 'solution' and not as 'meta' works in certain instances, it lets the players go out and 'solve' certain problems on our own without having to wait for updates that will never come. Its sad that in some instances subclass gets abused because I've seen several build issues resolved by subclassing. I'd hate to see either regular classes or subclasses get gutted or rolled back.

Subclass wasn't a mistake. If anything, the mistake came from not balancing classes along the way. It's too late to reinvent the last 5 years but subclass is a way forward. It's what they do now that matters, and I encourage ZOS not to roll back or severely nerf everything. I would keep with the momentum and don't allow subclassing to get broken the way other classes ended up in some instances. ZOS do what you need to do, we're with you, but please only do what really must be done.

Araneae6537 · September 28

No. Despite any problems with subclassing, I think it's better if it stays and its issues get addressed.

No, absolutely not! I love options to customize my characters and have enjoyed playing characters that I’d long relegated to only crafting. I still play some of my characters as their original class for two or all three lines, just depends on what fits and how I enjoy playing them.

StihlReign · September 28

Yes. I think it would be best for the game if subclassing was removed.

Let's see...ESO right? Let's power this up, login...ah here we are. Play how you want. Oh, what's this (J) QUEST JOURNAL. Nice. Hmm, Achievements, ah Leaderboards - well that seems fun. Let's take a look. OH, ok. well wow.

Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist
Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist
Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist

Geez. Ok. Sensing a theme here...but let's move on. Hey guys wanna group up? Do some dungeons? What do you guys need me to...

Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist
Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist
Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist

Well this seems a bit bit disturbing, Zos can you address this, oh, OH, nice there's something in the works? So you're balancing? No, not exactly?

PTS Patch Notes v11.2.0

Leaderboards

Leaderboards are now Account based (except Cyrodiil boards for now). This means that you will only have 1 entry per leaderboard, and it will be the highest score for the associated activity. Class specific leaderboards have been removed. With this change, the number of people per leaderboard can be adjusted based on feedback. So please make sure to provide any thoughts on this.

Kendaric · September 28

No. Despite any problems with subclassing, I think it's better if it stays and its issues get addressed.

StihlReign wrote: »

Let's see...ESO right? Let's power this up, login...ah here we are. Play how you want. Oh, what's this (J) QUEST JOURNAL. Nice. Hmm, Achievements, ah Leaderboards - well that seems fun. Let's take a look. OH, ok. well wow.

Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist
Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist
Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist

Geez. Ok. Sensing a theme here...but let's move on. Hey guys wanna group up? Do some dungeons? What do you guys need me to...

Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist
Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist
Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist Arcanist

Well this seems a bit bit disturbing, Zos can you address this, oh, OH, nice there's something in the works? So you're balancing? No, not exactly?

PTS Patch Notes v11.2.0

Leaderboards

Leaderboards are now Account based (except Cyrodiil boards for now). This means that you will only have 1 entry per leaderboard, and it will be the highest score for the associated activity. Class specific leaderboards have been removed. With this change, the number of people per leaderboard can be adjusted based on feedback. So please make sure to provide any thoughts on this.

Well, nerf Arcanist or at least the beam. Simple.

The only thing that should be reverted is the damned Hybridization. Subclassing is ok. Yes, it has some balancing issues but I'll rather have balancing issues than no subclassingat all.

SkaiFaith · September 28

No. Despite any problems with subclassing, I think it's better if it stays and its issues get addressed.

I would rollback classes.
That way subclassing wouldn't even be a thing anymore - anyone could choose any skill line to equip, mix and match how they like.
Further more: Zos could add new skill lines without worrying of creating a theme for 3 lines at a time.

Grizzbeorn · September 28

They aren't going to roll-back Subclassing.

spartaxoxo · September 28

No. Despite any problems with subclassing, I think it's better if it stays and its issues get addressed.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

PDarkBHood wrote: »

Also, don't forget (most of you need constant reminding), you do not have to subclass any of your characters if you do not want to. It is a choice, your choice to subclass.

Also, don't forget (most of you need constant reminding), if you choose not to Subclass, you have significantly less power and you are not going to effectively contribute to your group in endgame PvE or PvP and will be excluded.

That's only true of the highest of the high end players. You go into a PUG or more casual guild group and the pure class player is not automatically less effective than the subclassed one. Plenty of those also don't exclude people for not swapping.

Meta pushing guilds obviously require meta pushing but they're not how the general playerbase operates or experiences the game. They're an elite few.

Elvenheart · September 28

No. Despite any problems with subclassing, I think it's better if it stays and its issues get addressed.

I would like them to add some new and interesting skill lines we can use to create our own classes.

Edited to add: I do wish they had never called it Subclassing, Multi-classing really seems more accurate.

ApoAlaia · September 28

No. Despite any problems with subclassing, I think it's better if it stays and its issues get addressed.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

PDarkBHood wrote: »

Also, don't forget (most of you need constant reminding), you do not have to subclass any of your characters if you do not want to. It is a choice, your choice to subclass.

Also, don't forget (most of you need constant reminding), if you choose not to Subclass, you have significantly less power and you are not going to effectively contribute to your group in endgame PvE or PvP and will be excluded.

That's only true of the highest of the high end players. You go into a PUG or more casual guild group and the pure class player is not automatically less effective than the subclassed one.

Maybe they are the kind of player that is going for world record trifecta trial runs?

Because regular prog groups were doing trifecta runs on trials before subclassing and before arcanist.

SBS and PB have been obtained by multiple prog groups without either being available.

And good groups have been doing trial trifecta runs with 11 players and 1 'guest' for as long as trifectas have existed.

I always get this vibe that is not as much 'I don't want this for myself' as it is 'I don't want you to have this'.

Is like some players just find the idea of someone, somewhere having fun in a way they do not approve of intolerable.

StihlReign · September 28

Yes. I think it would be best for the game if subclassing was removed.

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I would rollback classes.
That way subclassing wouldn't even be a thing anymore - anyone could choose any skill line to equip, mix and match how they like.
Further more: Zos could add new skill lines without worrying of creating a theme for 3 lines at a time.

Then ZoS should also remove ultimates, passives and races.

Where is the Master Race, pick your passives select your ulti option?

tomofhyrule · September 28

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

PDarkBHood wrote: »

Also, don't forget (most of you need constant reminding), you do not have to subclass any of your characters if you do not want to. It is a choice, your choice to subclass.

Also, don't forget (most of you need constant reminding), if you choose not to Subclass, you have significantly less power and you are not going to effectively contribute to your group in endgame PvE or PvP and will be excluded.

That's only true of the highest of the high end players. You go into a PUG or more casual guild group and the pure class player is not automatically less effective than the subclassed one. Plenty of those also don't exclude people for not swapping.

Meta pushing guilds obviously require meta pushing but they're not how the general playerbase operates or experiences the game. They're an elite few.

…so “oh, their experiences don’t matter because of the type of content they do?” Do you realize how toxic that sounds?

How would your experience be different if Subclassing were balanced? People who don’t do high-level content could still build however they want, but then the people who do play high-level content would also be able to. It’s not like it has to be one or the other.

spartaxoxo · September 28

No. Despite any problems with subclassing, I think it's better if it stays and its issues get addressed.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

PDarkBHood wrote: »

Also, don't forget (most of you need constant reminding), you do not have to subclass any of your characters if you do not want to. It is a choice, your choice to subclass.

Also, don't forget (most of you need constant reminding), if you choose not to Subclass, you have significantly less power and you are not going to effectively contribute to your group in endgame PvE or PvP and will be excluded.

That's only true of the highest of the high end players. You go into a PUG or more casual guild group and the pure class player is not automatically less effective than the subclassed one. Plenty of those also don't exclude people for not swapping.

Meta pushing guilds obviously require meta pushing but they're not how the general playerbase operates or experiences the game. They're an elite few.

…so “oh, their experiences don’t matter because they do high-level content?” Do you realize how toxic that sounds?

How would your experience be different if Subclassing were balanced? People who don’t do high-level content could still build however they want, but then the people who do play high-level content would also be able to. It’s not like it has to be one or the other.

Good thing I didn't say any of that then. This is a thread soft proposing the deletion of subclassing entirely, not just improving the balance. So, it is important to remember that everyone's experiences with a system matters when discussing such a thing. The majority of players are not automatically outclassed by a subclassed build. They are not being excluded from content for not using it. Such things happening to elite players are a result of imbalance, yes, but it is also those guilds own longstanding exclusionary practices for the sake of creating elite teams that is driving it. Those teams don't just want to clear endgame content but to excel at it.

Obviously, subclassing should be balanced. But it shouldn't be deleted because meta guilds require meta. They will always require meta. And such exclusion is NOT an inherent part of the system. Many players do group content without such issues because they do it through more casual guilds or through pickup groups, which do not have those requirements. Subclassing is not different than any other class or set in that regard. The game obviously needs balancing to allow for more diversity at the top .That was true before subclassing too. It's been true for a while now.

All online ongoing multiplayer games will require rebalancing from time to time. And meta chasers will always form elite teams. Those things are inherent to multiplayer gaming. It's not a reason to delete entire features.

Soarora · September 28

Other

I want it rolled back, but it’s not realistic and I don’t really matter. If it was rolled back, zos would probably lose even more players.

Zos should either go harder with it, removing “base class” entirely, allowing freely swapping between all classes but giving a bonus to specializing into certain line combinations…

Or

Reel it back, nerf subclassed lines and/or how you can subclass (1 line only, tank line for tank line, etc).

Lysorris · September 28

Yes. I think it would be best for the game if subclassing was removed.

Although I said multiple times that you can't give and take back. I lost all will to play after recent surveys and U48. I lost interest in all of my characters, forced myself to play new ones to take a "fresh look" on subclassing and playing generally I do believe the dev team responsible for Combat is not capable for rolling out system like subclassing and I don't think it is gonna be any better. Combat dev team is literally silent on this topic... Just take a look how Dev team - Kevin reacts to any other topic - Kevin is VERY active and always posts that he will take a feedback to Devs or is ready to provide feedback to us. Combat? I don't think I ever seen Kevin commenting actually.

Lord_Hev · September 28

Yes. I think it would be best for the game if subclassing was removed.

Subclassing is the worst feature to be added into this game. Best case scenario is they "revamp" it and put some heavy restrictions on it. Or they can dodge having to mess with the actual lines of coding behind that and disrupting people's builds/armory(hasn't stopped them before though!) by adding some unique cp slottable or baked-in passives that gain % bonuses for each base class line you maintain.

Worst-case scenario they just keep trying to balance each skill-line as itself. Eventually the game will achieve true homeostasis, how exciting /s!

Dimorphos · September 28

NO.

It would be very stupid at this point to take back a change this huge.

What we need instead is some balancing so that people who still wish to remain within the class identity can do so and remain competitive against those choosing subclassing. Still, I also think that most powerful combinations should be achieved through subclassing because the very idea is to create sort of "hero classes".

I truly hope they will not restrict subclassing any further because then it loses all its fun. It is insanely satisfying mixing all the skill lines and passives with scribing, you can really create pretty epic builds even when they are lacking a bit behind META builds. But who cares as long as they are good enough for the content and feels and looks great.

And yes, we might still get a new class introduced to the game, there is nothing in subclassing that would prevent it from happening. I really hope they keep on enhancing this game and taking bold steps. I would love to see ESO also embracing esports and introduce some new challenge modes or dungeon + system with better rewards and support for real ranking lists and public data metering. Huge part of Wow's success comes from that wide competitive system.

Orbital78 · September 29

They just need to get the combat team to balancing things, I don't know if someone has too much say with bad ideas or ignoring the real issues. The game has the potential to have real fun combat but they always seem to pick the worst choices, even after good ones had been made. Balancing around the top end is a futile endeavor, they will always be able to do what most players cannot. Make combat FUN again, and I think that includes subclassing but making the less used lines more appealing and fun to use.

Skinnycheeks and the community have gone through with suggestions with indepth ways to improve skill lines, it is up to them to care about breaking from their spreadsheets and narrow view of combat to make it happen.

Castagere · September 29

No. Despite any problems with subclassing, I think it's better if it stays and its issues get addressed.

I say no, but I would love to hear the reasons some want it reversed. I'm betting it's all about PVP and group content, as well as those meta builds content creators' followers use.

BardokRedSnow · September 29

Partially. I think subclassing should be more limited and situational (only 1 skill line, no passives, only on PVE, etc.)

They dont even have this on WoW, no idea what they were thinking but they don't have employees that actually play their game and this is the result.

Edit: I would vote for total roleback but I know that wont happen so a severe nerf is needed instead and reworking.

mdjessup4906 · September 29

Other

For dps i don't t care my arc was fine the way it was. But I really like the ability to just swap out skill lines on my tank.

MIAMI · September 29

Yes. I think it would be best for the game if subclassing was removed.

I think it was a costly mistake and that it should be reverted. This is making the game something it isn't and it will make balancing even more complicated. people voting no only because it won't happen should be removed from the poll

Alchimiste1 · September 29

Yes. I think it would be best for the game if subclassing was removed.

With respect, I don’t think the current combat team has the knowledge or know how to be able to properly balance subclassing ( PvP).

I say this because even as an experienced player it’s hard to really go through everything that subclassing broke. Example: nb was balanced around a very strong yet telegraphed burst but with subclassing things like shalks, bb, and other delayed burst can be combos with some broken stuns like javelin.

In my honest opinion the game is cooked with subclassing. That’s not me hating it’s just my honest assessment.

Personofsecrets · September 29

Yes. I think it would be best for the game if subclassing was removed.

I didn't build and play exclusively a DK for 8 years to be using arcanist and warden skills.